Re: [WSG] help or web - THREAD CLOSED

[tee]

Forgive me Russ, while I was writing this email, your THREAD CLOSED came in
but I have an urge to finish my message.

Thank you Lea, Peter and others for not supporting the idea of turning this
wonderful group to a elitism group.

Here is my tiny timid newbie voice:
2 years ago I didn't know what web design was about and didn't dream on one
day I can make some money from web design; some 18 months ago I started to
learn css, 7 months ago I didn't know what is web standards and
accessibility before I started reading Zeldman' designing with web standards
and Cederholm'  Web Standards Solutions, but now I am offering web design
service and confident to tell my potential clients that I built web sites
according to web standard and take accessibility as my top priority. I have
many to thanks, first a member from a list who told me I should validate my
html. I think I joined WSG group some 4 or 5 months ago when googling to try
to learn more about web standards. When thing isn't get too crazy, I allow
myself to brows through WSG' archives and  in 4 months I have learned so
much, simply by reading the archives. My newbie questions not always get
response here but it doesn't stop me from coming back or ask another
question, for I know that many people here are really HERE to help others
and do not think I am too newbie or sound too stupid to them.

In Malay language, a 'guru' is a teacher, this was how I learned from the
first day I attended to elementary school. A guru is someone who teaches the
ignorance to become a knowledgeable person; a guru is someone who shares the
knowledge, know-how and help students to overcome the ignorance. I sense the
danger when someone thinks he/she is a 'guru' and starting to crown
himself/herself and try to make something to his/her own guruism club - this
is especially dangerous when web standards itself still net yet a
'standards', and extremely dangerous when not half the population who create
websites know what web standards is about and won't give a damn.

tee

> From: russ - maxdesign <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
> Date: Tue, 12 Jul 2005 15:06:18 +1000
> To: Web Standards Group 
> Subject: Re: [WSG] help or web - THREAD CLOSED
> 
>> Maybe enough said on this
> 
> THREAD CLOSED
> 
> There has been a lot of good input here, so thanks for bringing it up and
> for the following discussion... I think we can wrap it up now.
> 
> A few points to recap:
> 1. At this stage we will not be going to two or more lists.
> 2. Please use a subject line that will be informative to list members.
> 
> The usual mail list guidelines apply:
> 1. be courteous
> 2. trim replies (this is a common problem on our list)
> 3. stay on topic whenever possible
> 
> If unsure, check the guidelines:
> http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
> 
> or email info@webboy.net
> Thanks all
> Russ
> 
> 
> 
> **
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> 
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> 

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Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?

[Ingo Chao]

Please don't forget, while forking, to build a third mediocres/average 
list, for those who squint at being a guru and tend to forget the years 
they were soo newbie.


or, alternatively:

Raise the level of the input in this list by more quality postings and 
answers.


The quality of the answers to a list is triggering the quality of the 
next questions, it's a cicle, so easy.


Stop guruism.

Ingo
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Re: [WSG] help or web - THREAD CLOSED

[russ - maxdesign]

> Maybe enough said on this

THREAD CLOSED

There has been a lot of good input here, so thanks for bringing it up and
for the following discussion... I think we can wrap it up now.

A few points to recap:
1. At this stage we will not be going to two or more lists.
2. Please use a subject line that will be informative to list members.

The usual mail list guidelines apply:
1. be courteous
2. trim replies (this is a common problem on our list)
3. stay on topic whenever possible

If unsure, check the guidelines:
http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm

or email info@webboy.net
Thanks all
Russ



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Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?

[Geoff Deering]

Joshua Street wrote:


There's a minor problem with this, though I agree with your core
argument.  "Newbie" posts requesting site reviews can't very easily bear
a "descriptive" subject line when all they want is advice on
semantics/markup and best practises.  There isn't a core "problem" they
want addressed, nor a core problem we as a group should seek to address.

 



I think Subject :"Site Review Request/Help" indicates what that post is 
all about, and I think the help people get on this list from those posts 
is really helpful, even for those of us just reading them.. 


There is, however, scope for refinement here.  If someone requests a
site review and an aspect of this website is found wanting, the way in
which this is discussed should not need to be confined within the
original thread.
 



I agree.


For example, if the subject line was "Please review - example.com" in
the initial request, and example.com used definition lists (just because
everyone loves to argue about the application of those!), then it may be
appropriate, when (inevitably) the scope of the discussion broadens to
bear a highly tangential relation to the originally referenced website,
to alter the subject line - "RE: The undefined definition list (WAS:
Please review - example.com)".

I'm aware this happens, though perhaps not as often as it should.

 



I agree with this, but some lists don't.  The trouble is when the thread 
is hijacked rather than a new sub thread is started to address the need 
to seperate discussion on a number of topics within the thread.



I think we need to accept that some subject lines are never going to be
descriptive in the way some members desire - and this isn't anyone's
fault, but it is something we can work to correct as the thread of
discussion progresses.

Kind Regards,
Joshua Street
 



Agree, if there is this level of thoughtfulness applied, I can't see 
any/too many problems as long as there is a reasonable effort to make 
the subject line descriptive.


Maybe enough said on this, at least from my part.

Regards
Geoff


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Re: [WSG] HR - Presentation or Structure?

[Gunlaug Sørtun]

Kenny Graham wrote:

Am I alone in feeling that  should be depreciated in favor of CSS
 borders? Especially with  in the XHTML 2.0 drafts, what 
semantic or even structural value does  have? Every argument for 
its retention that I've heard so far has been presentation related.


Well, I only use  for non-CSS browsers / software (hidden from
graphical browsers), so I find it to be a handy element for dividing
content at times. Adds a little structure...

Borders and other types of separators are fine, so those are preferred
for presentational use in graphical browsers.

If the future brings better solutions, then I'll probably use those
instead - once the browsers have caught up.

regards
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
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[WSG] HR - Presentation or Structure?

[Kenny Graham]

Am I alone in feeling that  should be depreciated in favor of CSS
borders? Especially with  in the XHTML 2.0 drafts, what
semantic or even structural value does  have? Every argument for
its retention that I've heard so far has been presentation related.
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Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?

[Joshua Street]

On Tue, 2005-07-12 at 12:02 +1000, Jason Foss wrote:
> But I don't even open "Help Needed" type subject
> lines. A descriptive subject line is all that's needed; you can
> quickly decide if you want to read or get involved in the thread.

There's a minor problem with this, though I agree with your core
argument.  "Newbie" posts requesting site reviews can't very easily bear
a "descriptive" subject line when all they want is advice on
semantics/markup and best practises.  There isn't a core "problem" they
want addressed, nor a core problem we as a group should seek to address.

There is, however, scope for refinement here.  If someone requests a
site review and an aspect of this website is found wanting, the way in
which this is discussed should not need to be confined within the
original thread.

For example, if the subject line was "Please review - example.com" in
the initial request, and example.com used definition lists (just because
everyone loves to argue about the application of those!), then it may be
appropriate, when (inevitably) the scope of the discussion broadens to
bear a highly tangential relation to the originally referenced website,
to alter the subject line - "RE: The undefined definition list (WAS:
Please review - example.com)".

I'm aware this happens, though perhaps not as often as it should.

I think we need to accept that some subject lines are never going to be
descriptive in the way some members desire - and this isn't anyone's
fault, but it is something we can work to correct as the thread of
discussion progresses.

Kind Regards,
Joshua Street

base10solutions
Website:
http://www.base10solutions.com.au/
Phone: (02) 9898-0060  Fax: (02)
8572-6021
Mobile: 0425 808 469

Multimedia  Development  Agency



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Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?

[Rick Faaberg]

> But I don't even open "Help Needed" type subject
> lines. 

And I never read HTML/RTF email either. Text is too small.

Rick

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Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?

[Rick Faaberg]

On 7/11/05 4:51 PM "Lea de Groot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:

> I think the flip side is that a) newbies need to see the 'advanced'
> stuff to learn by osmosis and b) its really good for gurus to see the
> newbie questions (and maybe occasionally answer them?  Hint, hint
> people ;)) to keep them grounded.

I concur. Whenever I've seen a 'newbie' list split, most if not all of the
subscribers are newbies - doesn't exactly advance their science.

Rick Faaberg

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Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?

[Geoff Deering]

Jason Foss wrote:


If I can chip in too - I don't have a problem with newbie posts, nor
more advanced posts. But I don't even open "Help Needed" type subject
lines. A descriptive subject line is all that's needed; you can
quickly decide if you want to read or get involved in the thread.

My 2c, anyway... :D

 



Exactly

Regards
Geoff

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Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?

[Jason Foss]

> It's a huge "Help" when the Subject line clearly defines the topic, that
> way you can quickly identify threads where you may want to participate.
> It also helps when browsing archives.  Russ has covered this in the
> intro, and most lists do, but people still persist with "Help Needed"
> and equivalent vague and general subject titles.  If the subjects are
> titled in clear descriptive language, then a lot of these list problem
> are solved, and you may more readily attract people on the list who can
> contribute to that thread.
> 
> Regards
> Geoff

If I can chip in too - I don't have a problem with newbie posts, nor
more advanced posts. But I don't even open "Help Needed" type subject
lines. A descriptive subject line is all that's needed; you can
quickly decide if you want to read or get involved in the thread.

My 2c, anyway... :D

-- 
Jason Foss
http://www.almost-anything.com.au
http://www.waterfallweb.net
Windows Messenger: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
North Rockhampton, Queensland, Australia
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RE: [WSG] help or web standards group?

[Peter Firminger]

I totally concur with Lea (which happens with amazing regularity).

We have discussed this matter in the past (along with creating online fora
to move some of the newbie stuff off the list) but the general consensus was
that this was and still is the best way to do it to cover all levels.

If you'd like to use a forum environment, take a look at the stuff over at
Port80 in Perth. http://www.port80.asn.au/forums/

Let's not complain about the lower-end traffic if we're not injecting the
higher-end topics ourselves.

So, let's talk about XML/XSLT, SVG, what's happening with AJAX etc.
(see http://www.w3.org/2005/07/05-tagmem-minutes.html#item03 for a thought
starter, at least to see some of the W3 process on emergence).

P

> I like the concept, but my experience of multiple lists for the one
> group is that posts are constantly made on the 'wrong' list, driving
> everyone mad, or some of the lists simply aren't used - look at this
> group.  Demand drove the creation of the CMS list, but its traffic is
> minimal.


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Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?

[Geoff Deering]

Lea de Groot wrote:


On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:26:22 +1000, Richard Czeiger wrote:
 

Perhaps there should be two lists - one for discussing 
standards/accessibility/best practice and one for "how do I fix my 
float/site check please".
   

Having multiple lists also starts lots of flame threads on 'to which 
list topic X belongs'.
Given the number of tech lists with large membership and large traffic, 
I don't think anyone has solved the problem :(


I think the flip side is that a) newbies need to see the 'advanced' 
stuff to learn by osmosis and b) its really good for gurus to see the 
newbie questions (and maybe occasionally answer them?  Hint, hint 
people ;)) to keep them grounded.


warmly,
Lea
 



It's a huge "Help" when the Subject line clearly defines the topic, that 
way you can quickly identify threads where you may want to participate.  
It also helps when browsing archives.  Russ has covered this in the 
intro, and most lists do, but people still persist with "Help Needed" 
and equivalent vague and general subject titles.  If the subjects are 
titled in clear descriptive language, then a lot of these list problem 
are solved, and you may more readily attract people on the list who can 
contribute to that thread.


Regards
Geoff
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Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?

[Lea de Groot]

On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 09:26:22 +1000, Richard Czeiger wrote:
> Perhaps there should be two lists - one for discussing 
> standards/accessibility/best practice and one for "how do I fix my 
> float/site check please".

I like the concept, but my experience of multiple lists for the one 
group is that posts are constantly made on the 'wrong' list, driving 
everyone mad, or some of the lists simply aren't used - look at this 
group.  Demand drove the creation of the CMS list, but its traffic is 
minimal.
Having multiple lists also starts lots of flame threads on 'to which 
list topic X belongs'.
Given the number of tech lists with large membership and large traffic, 
I don't think anyone has solved the problem :(

I think the flip side is that a) newbies need to see the 'advanced' 
stuff to learn by osmosis and b) its really good for gurus to see the 
newbie questions (and maybe occasionally answer them?  Hint, hint 
people ;)) to keep them grounded.

warmly,
Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?

[Richard Czeiger]

I don't know, Lea...

Perhaps there should be two lists - one for discussing 
standards/accessibility/best practice and one for "how do I fix my 
float/site check please".
Personally, the latter tends to just fill up my Inbox, whereas I find the 
former really interesting and challenging
Some gurus out there might be amenable to 'mentoring' newbies on the second 
list ...
If one list were the standards/accessibility/best practice, perhaps at the 
end of a discussion the person how opened the topic puts together a summary, 
creating a Best Practice Guidelines for the topic discussed. This would be 
an awesome resource for beginners and advanced programmers alike.


Anyway, I can understand Mike's position - sometimes it can be frustrating 
when you have so many people, all at different levels and with different 
requirements.
The list membership has grown significantly (thanks to the fine efforts of 
the moderators and members themselves).

Perhaps it's time to evolve the list?

Just a thought   :o)
Richard


- Original Message - 
From: "Lea de Groot" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 12, 2005 7:07 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?



On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:30:24 +0100, Mike Whitehurst wrote:

is this mailing list for anything other than helping novice designers
with their hacks?


This is definitely a mailing list for discussing all aspects of web
standards.
Any technical list is going to have a large proportion of 'newbie'
questions - its just the nature of the beast.
If you have a more advanced topic to discuss, please do raise it! I'm
sure you will find the 'senior' members coming out of the woodwork to
discuss it if it intrigues them :)

warmly,
Lea
--
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] sprites to the right of me

[Nathan Rutman]

Ted,

Is text involved at all in this link?  If so, I would suggest using 100% 
and adding transparent pixels to the right of the image to "bump" it 
away from anything on that side.  Remember, text sizes can change with 
browser/user preferences, so if you assign a background to be 999px from 
the left, if the font is scaled it will overlay the background image.


Hope that helps,
Nate


*Nathan Rutman* ([EMAIL PROTECTED] )
Corporate Communications Designer

*Solvepoint Corporation*
882 South Matlack Street, Suite 110
West Chester, PA 19382
800.388.1850 x1208
484.356.0990 (fax)
www.solvepoint.com 



Drake, Ted C. wrote:


Hi lea
Thanks, I hadn't tried the 100% before. I remember seeing it ages ago. It's
a large sprite and I like to leave plenty of white space between icons to
avoid a stray icon showing up where it shouldn't. Hopefully, I can mix 100%
with a pixel measurement to go down 999px. 


Ted


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Lea de Groot
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 2:24 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] sprites to the right of me

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:11:39 -0700, Drake, Ted C.  wrote:
 


.spritely {background: url(bg-icons.png) no-repeat -35px -999px;
padding-left:65px; min-height:15px; }

However, we'd like this particular link to have the background image on
   


the
 


right side of the text.  As far as I know, the first number: -35, is for
   


the
 


left position. How would I say sit on the right side? If I pull the image
out of the sprite, I could say ... no-repeat right top;...
   



If you use padding-right you will leave a gap on the right hand side 
for the image to sit in.
If you use background-position of 100% (x-axis) it should push the 
image all the way to the right. ie rather than -35px -999px, use 100% 
something.
(Not sure #2 is 100% correct as I am answering quickly, but it should 
give you a pointer on what to experiment with)

See: http://www.w3schools.com/css/pr_background-position.asp

HIH!
Lea
 



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RE: [WSG] sprites to the right of me

[Drake, Ted C.]

Hi lea
Thanks, I hadn't tried the 100% before. I remember seeing it ages ago. It's
a large sprite and I like to leave plenty of white space between icons to
avoid a stray icon showing up where it shouldn't. Hopefully, I can mix 100%
with a pixel measurement to go down 999px. 

Ted


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Lea de Groot
Sent: Monday, July 11, 2005 2:24 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] sprites to the right of me

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:11:39 -0700, Drake, Ted C.  wrote:
> .spritely {background: url(bg-icons.png) no-repeat -35px -999px;
> padding-left:65px; min-height:15px; }
> 
> However, we'd like this particular link to have the background image on
the
> right side of the text.  As far as I know, the first number: -35, is for
the
> left position. How would I say sit on the right side? If I pull the image
> out of the sprite, I could say ... no-repeat right top;...

If you use padding-right you will leave a gap on the right hand side 
for the image to sit in.
If you use background-position of 100% (x-axis) it should push the 
image all the way to the right. ie rather than -35px -999px, use 100% 
something.
(Not sure #2 is 100% correct as I am answering quickly, but it should 
give you a pointer on what to experiment with)
See: http://www.w3schools.com/css/pr_background-position.asp

HIH!
Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] sprites to the right of me

[Nathan Rutman]

Don't use pixel values, use percentages or keywords:

.spritely {
   background: transparent url("bg-icons.png") no-repeat right center;
   padding-right: 65px;
   min-height: 15px;
}

Hope that helps,
Nate

*Nathan Rutman* ([EMAIL PROTECTED] )
Corporate Communications Designer

*Solvepoint Corporation*
882 South Matlack Street, Suite 110
West Chester, PA 19382
800.388.1850 x1208
484.356.0990 (fax)
www.solvepoint.com 



Drake, Ted C. wrote:


Sometimes, it seems like I can practically code sprite background images in
my sleep. But I have a problem when I want to place a sprite-ed background
image to the right of an object.

For instance, this is the css to place an image to the left of a link's
text.

.spritely {background: url(bg-icons.png) no-repeat -35px -999px;
padding-left:65px; min-height:15px; }

However, we'd like this particular link to have the background image on the
right side of the text.  As far as I know, the first number: -35, is for the
left position. How would I say sit on the right side? If I pull the image
out of the sprite, I could say ... no-repeat right top;...

At the same time, what if I wanted something to sit at the bottom of a div
or fieldset and it was in a sprite? Any suggestions?

Ted
 
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Re: [WSG] sprites to the right of me

[Lea de Groot]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 14:11:39 -0700, Drake, Ted C.  wrote:
> .spritely {background: url(bg-icons.png) no-repeat -35px -999px;
> padding-left:65px; min-height:15px; }
> 
> However, we'd like this particular link to have the background image on the
> right side of the text.  As far as I know, the first number: -35, is for the
> left position. How would I say sit on the right side? If I pull the image
> out of the sprite, I could say ... no-repeat right top;...

If you use padding-right you will leave a gap on the right hand side 
for the image to sit in.
If you use background-position of 100% (x-axis) it should push the 
image all the way to the right. ie rather than -35px -999px, use 100% 
something.
(Not sure #2 is 100% correct as I am answering quickly, but it should 
give you a pointer on what to experiment with)
See: http://www.w3schools.com/css/pr_background-position.asp

HIH!
Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/
Brisbane, Australia
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[WSG] sprites to the right of me

[Drake, Ted C.]

Sometimes, it seems like I can practically code sprite background images in
my sleep. But I have a problem when I want to place a sprite-ed background
image to the right of an object.

For instance, this is the css to place an image to the left of a link's
text.

.spritely {background: url(bg-icons.png) no-repeat -35px -999px;
padding-left:65px; min-height:15px; }

However, we'd like this particular link to have the background image on the
right side of the text.  As far as I know, the first number: -35, is for the
left position. How would I say sit on the right side? If I pull the image
out of the sprite, I could say ... no-repeat right top;...

At the same time, what if I wanted something to sit at the bottom of a div
or fieldset and it was in a sprite? Any suggestions?

Ted
  
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Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?

[Lea de Groot]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2005 21:30:24 +0100, Mike Whitehurst wrote:
> is this mailing list for anything other than helping novice designers 
> with their hacks?

This is definitely a mailing list for discussing all aspects of web 
standards.
Any technical list is going to have a large proportion of 'newbie' 
questions - its just the nature of the beast.
If you have a more advanced topic to discuss, please do raise it! I'm 
sure you will find the 'senior' members coming out of the woodwork to 
discuss it if it intrigues them :)

warmly,
Lea
-- 
Lea de Groot
Elysian Systems - http://elysiansystems.com/
Brisbane, Australia
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Re: [WSG] Getting in a muddle (h6:first-letter)

[David Laakso]

designer wrote:

Thanks to all who contributed.  I have now returned to good old 
reliable pixels!  Doing that, plus spelling out the declaration as 
individual statements:

[...]
The revised test file is still at 
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk/typotest.html


Bob McClelland
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk




When you rectify the typology you may want to consider the typograpy. 
Typography is an art, not a science. Bold TNR with bold oblique 
Verdanda are not exactly inspiring.

Regards,


David Laakso


--
David Laakso
http://www.dlaakso.com/


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Re: [WSG] help or web standards group?

[Brian Cummiskey]

Mike Whitehurst wrote:
is this mailing list for anything other than helping novice designers 
with their hacks?




[EMAIL PROTECTED] is a pretty much catch-all for 
web/html/php/sql/asp/apache.javascript/flash help.  sign up.


http://www.evolt.org

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[WSG] help or web standards group?

[Mike Whitehurst]

is this mailing list for anything 
other than helping novice designers with their hacks?

 Mike 
Whitehurst www.mike-whitehurst.co.uk

Re: [WSG] Getting in a muddle (h6:first-letter)

[designer]

Thanks to all who contributed.  I have now returned to good old reliable 
pixels!  Doing that, plus spelling out the declaration as individual 
statements:


h6:first-letter {
   color : #80;
   font-weight : bold;
   font-style : normal;
   font-size : 34px;
   font-family : "Times New Roman", Times, serif;
}

to avoid the 'font : bold normal 36px  . . .etc' confusion seems to make 
it robust.  If anyone doesn't see a larger brown first letter, followed 
by  pale brown oblique text in the remainder of the h6 example, please 
tell me. [it would be nice if you knew how to fix the problem too ! :-) ]


The revised test file is still at 
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk/typotest.html


many thanks

Bob McClelland
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk


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Re: [WSG] Getting in a muddle

[Jens Grochtdreis]

Hi Bob,

Nathans mail brought me to the idea, that IE5.5 has a problem with your 
basic font-definition. IE is known to have a problem, if you style body 
with em. So the best way, we had this a few days ago, is to style with 
percent if you want the IE-users to be able to resize the page.


Your basic definition is
body {
font : 8pt Verdana, Arial, Sans Serif;
}
Point would be correct, if it would be a print-stylesheet. For screen it 
would be pixels (px) or percent or ex or ex. I would prefer percent.
As the standard size (1em) is 16px and we should assume 1px as equal as 
1pt you would write:

body {
font : 50% Verdana, Arial, Sans Serif;
}
I wouldn't choose 50% but on the other hand 8px is really small, even 
for  Verdana.


So maybe your problem would be solved, if you change the font-unit for body.

--
Greetings from Germany,

Jens Grochtdreis

[www.grochtdreis.de] [blog.grochtdreis.de] [www.css-faq.de]
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Re: [WSG] Getting in a muddle

[Nathan Rutman]

In that case, perhaps using an EM size would be more effective than a 
percentage.  It would still be resizable for accessibility, but it might 
not throw 5.5 for a loop...


-Nate

*Nathan Rutman* ([EMAIL PROTECTED] )
Corporate Communications Designer

*Solvepoint Corporation*
882 South Matlack Street, Suite 110
West Chester, PA 19382
800.388.1850 x1208
484.356.0990 (fax)
www.solvepoint.com 



designer wrote:


Well that certainly works Ingo - thank you!

Bob

Ingo Chao wrote:


designer schrieb:


www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk/typotest.html

and there you will see the effect working fine in IE6, FF1.0, Opera 
etc.  But IE5.5, although it gets the colour right, h6:first-letter 
doesn't pick up the increase in size for the first letter.




havent looked to deep in it, but

h6:first-letter {
 ...
 font-size: 436%; /* feeds IE55*/
 fo\nt-size: 218% /* the rest */;
}

seems to be a start. looks like as if 5.5 does not know
with respect to which size it should calculate, but you'll have to 
test it.


Ingo


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Re: [WSG] Getting in a muddle

[designer]

Thanks John, but I don't think that's it. The letter isn't missing (it's 
even the right colour!) but the size is wrong.  ??


Bob



[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Quoting designer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

 


Dear wizards,

I am trying to set up a simple generic style sheet for the typography 
which I'm likely to use most, and am having trouble with getting a 
:first-letter to work in IE5.5.


   



Here's a link which describes your problem (and apparently, a solution)

http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/firstletter.html

Although, since I'm using Firefox, I can't see the problem you describe, except
through the screenshots at the bottom of the page.

Regards,
John
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Re: [WSG] Getting in a muddle

[designer]

Well that certainly works Ingo - thank you!

Bob

Ingo Chao wrote:


designer schrieb:


www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk/typotest.html

and there you will see the effect working fine in IE6, FF1.0, Opera 
etc.  But IE5.5, although it gets the colour right, h6:first-letter 
doesn't pick up the increase in size for the first letter.



havent looked to deep in it, but

h6:first-letter {
 ...
 font-size: 436%; /* feeds IE55*/
 fo\nt-size: 218% /* the rest */;
}

seems to be a start. looks like as if 5.5 does not know
with respect to which size it should calculate, but you'll have to 
test it.


Ingo


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Re: [WSG] Getting in a muddle

[designer]

Thanks Jens, but the 'normal' is supposed to mean 'not oblique'  (ie, 
the rest of the line is defined in h6 as font : bold oblique etc)   I 
agree, the 'bold normal'  does seem strange, but it's how topstyle pro 
converts a list of separate qualifiers . . .so you could have font : 
normal normal 218% etc.


So now I'm even more in a muddle! :-)

Bob


Jens Grochtdreis wrote:


Hi Bob,


Can anyone help out with this?




Maybe IE does't like the combination of bold and normal. You write:
h6:first-letter {
color : #333;
font: bold normal 218% "Times New Roman", Times, serif;
}

You should decide, if it should be bold or normal :-)

This would be nearly the first time, IE is stricter in wrong written 
CSS than the real browsers. Strange.



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Re: [WSG] Getting in a muddle

[jrcherry]

Quoting designer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:

> Dear wizards,
> 
> I am trying to set up a simple generic style sheet for the typography 
> which I'm likely to use most, and am having trouble with getting a 
> :first-letter to work in IE5.5.
>
 
Here's a link which describes your problem (and apparently, a solution)

http://www.positioniseverything.net/explorer/firstletter.html

Although, since I'm using Firefox, I can't see the problem you describe, except
through the screenshots at the bottom of the page.

Regards,
John
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Re: [WSG] Getting in a muddle

[Ingo Chao]

designer schrieb:

www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk/typotest.html

and there you will see the effect working fine in IE6, FF1.0, Opera 
etc.  But IE5.5, although it gets the colour right, h6:first-letter 
doesn't pick up the increase in size for the first letter.


havent looked to deep in it, but

h6:first-letter {
 ...
 font-size: 436%; /* feeds IE55*/
 fo\nt-size: 218% /* the rest */;
}

seems to be a start. looks like as if 5.5 does not know
with respect to which size it should calculate, but you'll have to test it.

Ingo

--
http://www.satzansatz.de/css.html
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Re: [WSG] Getting in a muddle

[Jens Grochtdreis]

Hi Bob,


Can anyone help out with this?



Maybe IE does't like the combination of bold and normal. You write:
h6:first-letter {
color : #333;
font: bold normal 218% "Times New Roman", Times, serif;
}

You should decide, if it should be bold or normal :-)

This would be nearly the first time, IE is stricter in wrong written CSS 
than the real browsers. Strange.


--
Greetings from Germany,

Jens Grochtdreis

[www.grochtdreis.de] [blog.grochtdreis.de] [www.css-faq.de]
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[WSG] Getting in a muddle

[designer]

Dear wizards,

I am trying to set up a simple generic style sheet for the typography 
which I'm likely to use most, and am having trouble with getting a 
:first-letter to work in IE5.5.


I want the first letter of my  to be larger than the rest of the 
line, in a darker colour, and I want the rest of the line to be 
oblique.  You can see an example at:


www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk/typotest.html

and there you will see the effect working fine in IE6, FF1.0, Opera 
etc.  But IE5.5, although it gets the colour right, h6:first-letter 
doesn't pick up the increase in size for the first letter.


Stumped!

Can anyone help out with this?

Many thanks,

Bob McClelland
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk


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RE: [WSG] are underscores a problem

[Chris Taylor]

On Jul 8, 2005, at 1:37 AM, Chris Taylor wrote:
> I've been using the dash and period in ID names a lot recently (part 
> of an unobtrusive DOM scripting set of functions I've been developing)

> and not found any problems yet in any of the Win browsers. Whether IDs

> formatted like this "functionName.-fe-4r-6s-ef-s5-ef.2000" will work 
> in older browsers or different operating systems I'm kind of crossing 
> my fingers about!

Ben Curtis replied:
> By "not found any problems" I assume you mean that these IDs are only 
> referenced by your script, and not the CSS. JS only requires that IDs
are 
> strings. Trying to assign styles to your elements via CSS would be 
> > problematic, since each period would be interpreted as a class name 
> indicator, and your middle classname starts with a hyphen (an illegal 
> start). But if you are only accessing the info via JS, then it should
be 
> fine.

Absolutely, and although it would be better to be able to use these IDs
for CSS, at the moment it's not essential. Actually, I could have
modified the IDs so they didn't have dashes in, but my JavaScript skills
gave up at that point.

Chris
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Re: [WSG] JAVA Script help

[Choan C. Gálvez]

Angus at InfoForce Services escribió:


 Can a person familiar with JAVA Script have a look at
 http://infoforce-services.com/personal/englishocanada.php and contact
 me off list at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and tell me what is wrong
 and how to fix it. Thank you.



Error: missing } after function body
Archivo de origen: http://infoforce-services.com/personal/englishocanada.php
Línea: 27, columna: 1
Código fuente:
}

Regards,
Choan

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re: SPAM-LOW: RE: [WSG] base css

[csslist]

thanks :)  those are good but I guess what i meant was more in terms of hacks that are generally used in most css files, I guess meaning are you guys starting off with a chunck of hacks or adding them as needed?  :)From: "Mike Foskett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>Sent: Tuesday, July 05, 2005 10:16 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: SPAM-LOW: RE: [WSG] base cssSnippet taken from: http://www.websemantics.co.uk/tutorials/useful_css_snippets/#levellerWhere there's a fuller description and a few other snippets.On full width pages: * {margin:0; padding:0}html {height:100%; font-size:100.01%}body {  min-height:101%;  font:100.01%/130% Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif;  color:#000;  background:#fff }  On fixed width pages: * {margin:0; padding:0}html {height:100%; font-size:100.01%}body {  text-align:center;  min-height:101%;  font:100.01%/130% Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif;  color:#000;  background:#fff;  width:760px;  margin:0 auto  }body * {text-align:left}#wrapper {width:760px} Both seem to work well cross browser / cross platform, but testing and change is a continual process. Regardsmike 2k:)2  e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] site: http://www.webSemantics.co.uk **This email and any files transmitted with it are confidential andintended solely for the use of the individual or entity to whom theyare addressed. If you have received this email in error please notifythe system manager.This footnote also confirms that this email message has been swept byMIMEsweeper for the presence of computer viruses.www.clearswift.comThe discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**