Re: [WSG] Embedding windows movie and xhtml validation
tee Thankyou for your information . I rebuilt the VR mov and inserted your extra line. Still have same problem with E on Mac. No problems with fire or safari on Mac or E on PC, Probably need another patch in the CSS Now need to convert all my mac.mov and MP4 files to windows streaming for Windows Media Player Do you know of any conversion software. Is there a good script for embedding avi files and xhtml validates or what ever plays on PC that comes off a windows streaming server ( We just got this one ) Ian tee [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org t cc: Sent by: Subject: Re: [WSG] Embedding quicktime movie and xhtml validation [EMAIL PROTECTED] dsgroup.org 07/13/2005 10:20 AM Please respond to wsg Have you found any information on embedding quicktime movies, I have just embeded VR mov when testing have no control bar in Explorer on Mac. http://acuonline.acu.edu.au/chapel_stpatrick.html Ian Hi Ian, I didn't use the js script that was mention in my message, reason was because I didn't get response (it turned out to be a good thing :) ) from anybody and I usually tend to stay away from something that I don't understand well. Anyhow, I spent more time on google and found a css hack for different ie browsers. Had a quick look on your source and I think we both are using the same css hack. Comparing your object tags and mine, I don't see anything wrong except in the second object tag, yours doesn't have the a href=http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download;Download QuickTime Player/a Don't know if it makes any different but maybe you want to add this because I can see the controller in IE Mac. Yours: object classid=clsid:02BF25D5-8C17-4B23-BC80-D3488ABDDC6B codebase=http://www.apple.com/qtactivex/qtplugin.cab; width=424 height=230 param name=src value=video/chapeldv.mov / param name=controller value=true / param name=autoplay value=true / object type=video/quicktime data=video/chapeldv.mov width=424 height=230 class=mov param name=controller value=true / param name=autoplay value=true / Error text. /object /object Mine: object classid=clsid:02BF25D5-8C17-4B23-BC80-D3488ABDDC6B codebase=http://www.apple.com/qtactivex/qtplugin.cab; width=240 height=200 param name=src value=pgodan.mov / param name=autoplay value=false / object type=video/quicktime data=pgodan.mov width=240 height=200 class=mov param name=controller value=true /a href=http://www.apple.com/quicktime/download;Download QuickTime Player/a /object /object tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Embedding windows movie and xhtml validation
I rebuilt the VR mov and inserted your extra line. Still have same problem with E on Mac. Ian, sorry to hear it doesn't work. Maybe it's because you are using mp4 that simply too advance for IE Mac?~!!! Probably need another patch in the CSS I would think it has nothing to do with the css. Now need to convert all my mac.mov and MP4 files to windows streaming for Windows Media Player As a Mac user I hate Windows Media Player. It maybe my biasness that I feel quicktime movie is more lightweight than WMP. Another thing you may want to pay attention to, that some WMP movies/streamline that I downloaded can't be play on my player, and yes, I did make sure my player is the latest version. Do you know of any conversion software. Sorry I don't know anything. I was fortunate to be given the qt format for the site I worked on without me to worry about the conversion. Is there a good script for embedding avi files and xhtml validates Hope other can answer this as I also want to know. Good luck! Tee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] HR - Presentation or Structure?
taping a 30 second conversation between husband and wife is using a medium the cassette and tape recorder, and it is not catching the visual cues of non verbal communication. Audio tapes are unable to convey visual information although they can convey non verbal communication as u say by inflection and tone etc,.. To use a tape is to miss a lot of information conveyed in that conversation not to simplify it. Just, my thoughts.. Nikki Maxima Consult -- Web Access, Web Sales, Web Profit Providers of internet marketing servicesand accessible ebusiness solutions. Nicola Rae Maxima Consult www.webaccessforeveryone.co.uk 0044 (0)1273 476709 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Kenny Graham Sent: 13 July 2005 02:48 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] HR - Presentation or Structure? Tape a 30 second conversation between a husband and a wife, and there are no headers or pages.It's a different ball game. Almost all forms of communication begin as structured content in the form of thoughts. You mentally structure what you want to say into sentences, you want parts of those sentences to be emphasized, etc. Then, depending on the medium you want to present those thoughts in (speech, literature, etc), you convert those abstract concepts into things like inflection and pauses for speech, and periods and italics for literature. In my understanding, XHTML/XML is a way of recording that pure structured information before limiting it to the constraints of a specific medium. It is not to record that information after it has been constrained to speech. Also, grouping headers with pages is flawed logic. Headers have a semantic meaning, while pages are, once again, a constraint of certain presentation mediums.
[WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
What I would like to be able to do is detect to see if the user has the proper support for web standards and if not redirect them to a version of the site using old skool junk HTML --- Owen Briggs used a style class named .ahem set to display: hidden which links user to alternative content http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/index.html -- of course i am seeking to make this whole thing graceful and silent, ie users don't have to be aware or made aware of thier inefior browser just get redirected. So I am wondering: what the WSG members think of the idea? has something like this been made? atb Sam ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
sam sherlock wrote: What I would like to be able to do is detect to see if the user has the proper support for web standards and if not redirect them to a version of the site using old skool junk HTML ... So I am wondering: what the WSG members think of the idea? has something like this been made? The whole idea of using web standards is to have a single version of a page sent to all browsers. Yes, older browsers (which make up an increasingly small percentage of the overall browsing population) may not get the full effect, but unless you know for a fact that a large number of your visitors are still using things like Netscape 4.x I'd say it's not worth the effort anymore. About 5 years ago, perhaps...but not in 2005. IMHO, of course. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
G'day What I would like to be able to do is detect to see if the user has the proper support for web standards and if not redirect them to a version of the site using old skool junk HTML Why? What benefit does anyone (developer, site owner, 1 visitor in a million) gain from that junk HTML? Owen Briggs used a style class named .ahem set to display: hidden which links user to alternative content If a site is properly constructed with (x)html, it will be accessible in IE/NN4 (and perhaps older versions). Give them working, accessible content without frills, rather than bending over backwards to give them something that looks the same but is an awful mess in the engine compartment. of course i am seeking to make this whole thing graceful and silent, ie users don't have to be aware or made aware of thier inefior browser just get redirected. So I am wondering: what the WSG members think of the idea? I am but one member and can't speak for the others, but I think it a waste of time. Why maintain two separate versions (or 3 if you throw in a text only version) when one will do? Just hide the CSS they don't understand and give them a plain-vanilla site. They'll get used to it as more and more sites go down that path. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
You can easily chack if someone's browser has DOM support by including
this in the header:
script type=text/javascript
!--//
if (!document.getElementById)
{window.location=altindex.html}
// --
/script
and this will redirect the user to an alternative html file of your
choice: some folk suggest that the user upgrades and provides link(s)
accordingly, some redirect to a basic page.
However, in the long run, it isn't worth it, as the others have said.
Just let the page degrade gracefully in old browsers.
HTH,
Bob McClelland
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
sam sherlock wrote:
What I would like to be able to do is detect to see if the user has
the proper support
for web standards and if not redirect them to a version of the site
using old skool junk HTML
---
Owen Briggs used a style class named .ahem set to display: hidden
which links user to alternative content
http://www.thenoodleincident.com/tutorials/box_lesson/index.html
--
of course i am seeking to make this whole thing graceful and silent,
ie users don't have to be aware or made
aware of thier inefior browser just get redirected.
So I am wondering:
what the WSG members think of the idea?
has something like this been made?
atb Sam
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
Thanks for the responses. I agree with the points being made so far I am relucant to maintain two sites (actually I am using PHP to rebuild the junk from the XHTML semantic site and will be adding a full flash version too :) but this is not a php list ) Bert Doorn wrote: Why? What benefit does anyone (developer, site owner, 1 visitor in a million) gain from that junk HTML? Its down to what users are expecting really. The site owner and visitor are not expecting a plain unformated site Bert Doorn wrote: Just hide the CSS they don't understand and give them a plain-vanilla site. They'll get used to it as more and more sites go down that path. I hope we get there soon Bob McClelland wrote: You can easily chack if someone's browser has DOM support... and this will redirect the user to an alternative html file of your choice: some folk suggest that the user upgrades and provides link(s) accordingly, some redirect to a basic page. However, in the long run, it isn't worth it, as the others have said. Just let the page degrade gracefully in old browsers. --- new resolution Basic Splash Page that degrades (though in my case it can't degrade too much) directing the user to a site more suited to them (with some PHP trickery and a list of Bad Browsers) I don't want to emabrk upon a a tangent taking us off the focus of this list, lets say I had a list of known bad browsers and they get put to Junk/Old Skool site and all others go to the full xhtml experience (others later can view the full flash experience) Since this is a music media site the main user base are expecting glitz n glamour, bells n whisltes a plenty. Not giving them this is against the wishes of the site owner. The other alternative is to rule out webstandards for thhis project. which woul mean ruling out the benefits also - site owner would enjoy these, as would visitor, as would I atb egar to see what you think S Bert Doorn wrote: G'day What I would like to be able to do is detect to see if the user has the proper support for web standards and if not redirect them to a version of the site using old skool junk HTML Why? What benefit does anyone (developer, site owner, 1 visitor in a million) gain from that junk HTML? Owen Briggs used a style class named .ahem set to display: hidden which links user to alternative content If a site is properly constructed with (x)html, it will be accessible in IE/NN4 (and perhaps older versions). Give them working, accessible content without frills, rather than bending over backwards to give them something that looks the same but is an awful mess in the engine compartment. of course i am seeking to make this whole thing graceful and silent, ie users don't have to be aware or made aware of thier inefior browser just get redirected. So I am wondering: what the WSG members think of the idea? I am but one member and can't speak for the others, but I think it a waste of time. Why maintain two separate versions (or 3 if you throw in a text only version) when one will do? Just hide the CSS they don't understand and give them a plain-vanilla site. They'll get used to it as more and more sites go down that path. Regards ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] REL REV
Microformats.org have a nice little item in their FAQ about rel rev and some very useful 'plain english' expansions of common rel and rev relationships. It cetainly cleared a few things up for me! Ben On 7/13/05, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Kennon wrote: After pouring over endless minutiae, if yet to grasp when and how to use link rel= link rev= after having seen it numerous times, peering at the code of many respected sites. Right...first of all, I think that out of the two only rel is most commonly used, as rev does seem to cause weird logic conundrums and is not really necessary in most simple situations. The HTML 4 spec states: rel = link-types [CI] This attribute describes the relationship from the current document to the anchor specified by the href attribute. The value of this attribute is a space-separated list of link types. rev = link-types [CI] This attribute is used to describe a reverse link from the anchor specified by the href attribute to the current document. The value of this attribute is a space-separated list of link types. http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/links.html#adef-rel To give an (hopefully clearer) example: say you have documents that make up a sequence, like separate chapters in a book where each document is a chapter, and you want to define the relationship between them with LINK elements to say which is previous and which is next in the set. Document1 has a link rel=next to Document2 - Document2 has a relationship with me in that it's the next document in the set Document2 has (although nobody does this) a link rev=next to Document1 - I have a relationship with Document1 in that *I* am Document1's next document in the set Document2 also has a normal link rel=previous to Document1 - Document1 is my previous document in the set which is reciprocated in Document1 with a link rev=previous to Document2 - I am Document2's previous document in the set You see, the rev is basically used to reciprocate what the rel in the other document said. For simple relationships like this, it's fairly straightforward...but it can start being complicated when one document is the glossary and it needs to rev to any page that rels to it (every page would have a single link rel=glossary, but the glossary page itself would have a link rev=glossary for every single page that references it with a rel...madness) In practice, I have never encountered revs in the wild. Hope this makes some kind of sense... -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- http://ben-ward.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Print CSS justify
On Tuesday, July 12, 2005 at about 5:38 PM, from [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...Mike Foskett entreated: | Should do the trick but be sure the print.css file follows the default in the HTML: | | style type=text/css media=screen@import /styles/display.css;/style | link rel=stylesheet type=text/css media=print href=/styles/print.css / | | It's not supposed to make a difference yet it does. Thanks Mike, that did it. Dean ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
[WSG] bitstream
Hi, While googling on the link rel=# subject posted yesterday, I found this: (http://www.truedoc.com/webpages/intro/index.html) Has anyone used this service if so what is the consensus, barring the in-line styling of the font tags of course? CK __ Knowing is not enough, you must apply; willing is not enough, you must do. ---Bruce Lee ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
On Jul 13, 2005, at 7:03 AM, sam sherlock wrote: Basic Splash Page that degrades (though in my case it can't degrade too much) directing the user to a site more suited to them (with some PHP trickery and a list of Bad Browsers) I don't want to emabrk upon a a tangent taking us off the focus of this list, lets say I had a list of known bad browsers and they get put to Junk/Old Skool site and all others go to the full xhtml experience (others later can view the full flash experience) Since this is a music media site the main user base are expecting glitz n glamour, bells n whisltes a plenty. Not giving them this is against the wishes of the site owner. The key unknowns about your proposal are: - what browsers are included in your list of Bad Browsers (and how much of your audience is that)? - what do you mean by full XHTML experience? What XHTML features are you using that your Bad Browsers can't handle? - does the site owner agree that this is worth doubling the development costs? -- Ben Curtis : webwright bivia : a personal web studio http://www.bivia.com v: (818) 507-6613 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] REL REV
Hi, Almost grokked, so if I have the following sections: Home, About, Photos, Contact, Portfolio Would this structure be correct and needed: From index page: link rel=next href=./about.html / link rel=next href=./photos.html / link rel=next href=./contact.html / link rel=next href=./portfolio.html / From contact page: link rev=previous rel =home href=./index.html / link rev=previous rel =about href=./about.html / On Jul 12, 2005, at 5:02 PM, Patrick H. Lauke wrote: Chris Kennon wrote: After pouring over endless minutiae, if yet to grasp when and how to use link rel= link rev= after having seen it numerous times, peering at the code of many respected sites. Right...first of all, I think that out of the two only rel is most commonly used, as rev does seem to cause weird logic conundrums and is not really necessary in most simple situations. The HTML 4 spec states: rel = link-types [CI] This attribute describes the relationship from the current document to the anchor specified by the href attribute. The value of this attribute is a space-separated list of link types. rev = link-types [CI] This attribute is used to describe a reverse link from the anchor specified by the href attribute to the current document. The value of this attribute is a space-separated list of link types. http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/struct/links.html#adef-rel To give an (hopefully clearer) example: say you have documents that make up a sequence, like separate chapters in a book where each document is a chapter, and you want to define the relationship between them with LINK elements to say which is previous and which is next in the set. Document1 has a link rel=next to Document2 - Document2 has a relationship with me in that it's the next document in the set Document2 has (although nobody does this) a link rev=next to Document1 - I have a relationship with Document1 in that *I* am Document1's next document in the set Document2 also has a normal link rel=previous to Document1 - Document1 is my previous document in the set which is reciprocated in Document1 with a link rev=previous to Document2 - I am Document2's previous document in the set You see, the rev is basically used to reciprocate what the rel in the other document said. For simple relationships like this, it's fairly straightforward...but it can start being complicated when one document is the glossary and it needs to rev to any page that rels to it (every page would have a single link rel=glossary, but the glossary page itself would have a link rev=glossary for every single page that references it with a rel...madness) In practice, I have never encountered revs in the wild. Hope this makes some kind of sense... -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] bitstream
While googling on the link rel=# subject posted yesterday, I found this: (http://www.truedoc.com/webpages/intro/index.html) Has anyone used this service if so what is the consensus, barring the in-line styling of the font tags of course? No, I haven't used it, but I've just had a quick play. It only works in IE as it needs an ActiveX control. Looks like these fonts used to be supported in Netscape 4.x but it's no longer supported in Netscape 6+. Anthony -- www.fonant.com - hand-crafted web sites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] HTML Codes - Characters and symbols
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 11:08:03 +1000, jackie reid wrote: this is handy for people like me who dont know the HTML Codes - Characters and symbols off by heart or even 1% by heart http://www.ascii.cl/htmlcodes.htm Thank you, Jackie, Nice one. I'm adding that to my bookmarks! Another great reference is Brian Wilson's HTML and CSS reference. It's two years old, but I still find it valuable: http://www.blooberry.com/indexdot/html/index.html Cordially, David -- David Hucklesby, on 7/13/2005 http://www.hucklesby.com/ -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web standards detection - is it possible?
On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:13:40 +1000, russ - maxdesign wrote: ... I heard a presentation the other day where a major site went to standards and in the process dished up unstyled pages to NN4. They received heaps of feedback from people using NN4 thanking them for making the browsing experience easier and faster. I'm saving a copy of this. Thank you, Russ. I needed to know that. Cordially, David -- David Hucklesby, on 7/13/2005 http://www.hucklesby.com/ -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] web standards detection - is it possible?
Hey Russ This is the kind of thing we all need in our marketing tool belt. Do you have more specific info on this quote? Who said it? Who was the company? Do they have any stats available? I work for a company that is stuck with a small set of nn4 users and this would be helpful to know. Thanks Ted -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David Hucklesby Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 9:53 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] web standards detection - is it possible? On Wed, 13 Jul 2005 23:13:40 +1000, russ - maxdesign wrote: ... I heard a presentation the other day where a major site went to standards and in the process dished up unstyled pages to NN4. They received heaps of feedback from people using NN4 thanking them for making the browsing experience easier and faster. I'm saving a copy of this. Thank you, Russ. I needed to know that. Cordially, David -- David Hucklesby, on 7/13/2005 http://www.hucklesby.com/ -- ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] REL REV
Chris Kennon wrote: After pouring over endless minutiae, if yet to grasp when and how to use link rel= link rev= after having seen it numerous times, peering at the code of many respected sites. If you want to make real world use of link rel=, then this page may actually tell you how to do it. http://www.literarymoose.info/-/item/depth-of-sequential-navigation/category/site-design ...use a good browser ;-) regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
Hi All, I actually put a non Dom counter on one of my sites a few months ago, to check how relevant it was in this particular case. The site is a holiday letting agency, so the users are of all kinds and from all IT levels. (But mostly English). You can see the detailed stats showing the 'old browser' users here: http://extremetracking.com/open;unique?login=nondom and it's interesting to see how that compares to the 'modern browser hits. The following data is for the last four months and shows the number of users (not pages) for Dom and nonDom: Month Dom NonDom April 494 7 May 516 3 June 494 6 July 191 2 I presume that the figures are reliable enough and I expect these figures to be representative of sites which are not 'specialist'. I found it interesting, so I thought some of you may do too, esp in view of this recent discussion. Bob McClelland www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] REL REV
Hi, Thanks, good stuff, the page does cut-off after the first diagram in Safari 2.0 On Jul 13, 2005, at 10:37 AM, Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: Chris Kennon wrote: After pouring over endless minutiae, if yet to grasp when and how to use link rel= link rev= after having seen it numerous times, peering at the code of many respected sites. If you want to make real world use of link rel=, then this page may actually tell you how to do it. http://www.literarymoose.info/-/item/depth-of-sequential- navigation/category/site-design ...use a good browser ;-) regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
Curious--how do you check for DOM? BL -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of designer Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 11:00 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible? Hi All, I actually put a non Dom counter on one of my sites a few months ago, to check how relevant it was in this particular case. The site is a holiday letting agency, so the users are of all kinds and from all IT levels. (But mostly English). You can see the detailed stats showing the 'old browser' users here: http://extremetracking.com/open;unique?login=nondom and it's interesting to see how that compares to the 'modern browser hits. The following data is for the last four months and shows the number of users (not pages) for Dom and nonDom: Month Dom NonDom April 494 7 May 516 3 June 494 6 July 191 2 I presume that the figures are reliable enough and I expect these figures to be representative of sites which are not 'specialist'. I found it interesting, so I thought some of you may do too, esp in view of this recent discussion. Bob McClelland www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
Sam Sherlock wrote: Basic Splash Page that degrades... directing the user to a site more suited to them... a list of known bad browsers and they get put... Since this is a music media site the main user base are expecting glitz n glamour, bells n whisltes a plenty. Not giving them this is against the wishes of the site owner. Did we just hit some kind of crazy-ass time warping worm-hole that landed us in 1995? Splash page... best viewed with... click here if you use... Is this Sliders? I thought they canceled that show. I'd say the only question here is: to standardize or not. I certainly would *not* be trying to figure out how many sites I need to build. I already know the answer to that question: One. If your contract has some kind of thou shalt not abandon 4.0 browsers clause, then you'll have to do what you will to support that requirement. This route may include design and feature constraints or degradation in older browsers and it may include non-standard coding to support older browsers, but there is no way I would build additional sites, unless I was being paid -- fully -- for each. -- Best regards, Michael Wilson ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
Sorry, my figures were incorrect - what I thought was the last four months was actually the last 6. The actual figures are: Month Dom Non Dom Feb 296 7 Mar 504 3 April 494 0 May 516 6 June 494 2 July 193 0 ! Bob designer wrote: Hi All, I actually put a non Dom counter on one of my sites a few months ago, to check how relevant it was in this particular case. The site is a holiday letting agency, so the users are of all kinds and from all IT levels. (But mostly English). You can see the detailed stats showing the 'old browser' users here: http://extremetracking.com/open;unique?login=nondom and it's interesting to see how that compares to the 'modern browser hits. The following data is for the last four months and shows the number of users (not pages) for Dom and nonDom: Month Dom NonDom April 494 7 May 516 3 June 494 6 July 191 2 I presume that the figures are reliable enough and I expect these figures to be representative of sites which are not 'specialist'. I found it interesting, so I thought some of you may do too, esp in view of this recent discussion. Bob McClelland www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
it was eariler in the discussion
Bob McClelland
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk wrote:
if (!document.getElementById)
{window.location=/v4/?dom=false}
Bret Lester wrote:
Curious--how do you check for DOM?
BL
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of designer
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 11:00 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
Hi All,
I actually put a non Dom counter on one of my sites a few months ago, to
check how relevant it was in this particular case. The site is a
holiday letting agency, so the users are of all kinds and from all IT
levels. (But mostly English).
You can see the detailed stats showing the 'old browser' users here:
http://extremetracking.com/open;unique?login=nondom
and it's interesting to see how that compares to the 'modern browser
hits. The following data is for the last four months and shows the
number of users (not pages) for Dom and nonDom:
Month
Dom
NonDom
April
494
7
May
516
3
June
494
6
July
191
2
I presume that the figures are reliable enough and I expect these
figures to be representative of sites which are not 'specialist'.
I found it interesting, so I thought some of you may do too, esp in view
of this recent discussion.
Bob McClelland
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
RE: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
Ah yes, nice and simple. I like that. Just joined the mailing list so I
missed that part. Thanks
BL
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of sam sherlock
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 11:49 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
it was eariler in the discussion
Bob McClelland
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk wrote:
if (!document.getElementById)
{window.location=/v4/?dom=false}
Bret Lester wrote:
Curious--how do you check for DOM?
BL
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of designer
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 11:00 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
Hi All,
I actually put a non Dom counter on one of my sites a few months ago,
to
check how relevant it was in this particular case. The site is a
holiday letting agency, so the users are of all kinds and from all IT
levels. (But mostly English).
You can see the detailed stats showing the 'old browser' users here:
http://extremetracking.com/open;unique?login=nondom
and it's interesting to see how that compares to the 'modern browser
hits. The following data is for the last four months and shows the
number of users (not pages) for Dom and nonDom:
Month
Dom
NonDom
April
494
7
May
516
3
June
494
6
July
191
2
I presume that the figures are reliable enough and I expect these
figures to be representative of sites which are not 'specialist'.
I found it interesting, so I thought some of you may do too, esp in
view
of this recent discussion.
Bob McClelland
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list getting help
**
Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
further more part of my stratergy is too use some kind of php sniffer script like http://phpsniff.sourceforge.net/ - not straying out of the remit of this list check the following stats produced property_name return value ua mozilla/5.0 (windows; u; windows nt 5.0; en-us; rv:1.7.8) gecko/20050511 firefox/1.0.4 browser fx long_name firefox version 1.0.4 maj_ver 1 min_ver .0.4 letter_ver _javascript_ 1.5 platform win os 2k session cookies Unknown stored cookies Unknown ip 80.44.177.228 language en-us,en gecko 20050511 gecko_ver 1.7.8 html true images true frames true tables true java true plugins true css2 true css1 true iframes true xml true dom true hdml false wml false $client-has_quirk(quirk) must_cache_forms true avoid_popup_windows false cache_ssl_downloads false break_disposition_header false empty_file_input_value false scrollbar_in_way false $client-browser_is(browser) gecko1.3+ true aol false ie6+ false mz1.3+ false ns7+ false op6+ false $client-language_is(language) en true en-us true fr-ca false $client-is(search) b:ns7- false l:en-us true all information gathered with out any need of _javascript_ etc this way it will be easy to check against alist of naughty bad browsers Bret Lester wrote: Curious--how do you check for DOM? BL -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of designer Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2005 11:00 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible? Hi All, I actually put a non Dom counter on one of my sites a few months ago, to check how relevant it was in this particular case. The site is a holiday letting agency, so the users are of all kinds and from all IT levels. (But mostly English). You can see the detailed stats showing the 'old browser' users here: http://extremetracking.com/open;unique?login=nondom and it's interesting to see how that compares to the 'modern browser hits. The following data is for the last four months and shows the number of users (not pages) for Dom and nonDom: Month Dom NonDom April 494 7 May 516 3 June 494 6 July 191 2 I presume that the figures are reliable enough and I expect these figures to be representative of sites which are not 'specialist'. I found it interesting, so I thought some of you may do too, esp in view of this recent discussion. Bob McClelland www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web standards detection - is it possible?
Who said it? Who was the company? Do they have any stats available? I remember the information, as it was a surprising statement, but not the specifics. I think the person was Peter Ottery, talking about one of the Fairfax sites. But before anyone quotes this as fact, it may be best if Peter (a list member) confirms or denies this. Peter? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] REL REV
Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: ...use a good browser ;-) are you referring to opera? ;^) -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Wassily Kandinsky, Concerning The Spiritual In Art ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] REL REV
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: ...use a good browser ;-) are you referring to opera? ;^) Well, I use Opera, and that site is obviously focused on Opera... I was however hinting at the fact that that page and the site is not very IE/win-friendly. I don't think Moose care much about weak browsers. I haven't tested that site's cross-browser functionality, but Firefox, and I think most other standard-compliant browsers, should do just fine on that site - so there are options ;-) regards Georg -- http://www.gunlaug.no ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re:Moose was [WSG] REL REV
Gunlaug Sørtun wrote: Well, I use Opera, and that site is obviously focused on Opera... I was however hinting at the fact that that page and the site is not very IE/win-friendly. i know you prefer opera. it seems that this would be a good resource for dealing with opera problems. i bookmarked it for that reason. thanks for your informative nature. I don't think Moose care much about weak browsers. i've been feeling the same way. i will look at a html/css solution to a problem with less thought about ie these days. regards, dwain -- Dwain Alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The artist may use any form which his expression demands; for his inner impulse must find suitable expression. Wassily Kandinsky, Concerning The Spiritual In Art ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
re: php sniffer script Splash Page that degrades (though ... can't degrade too much) Sam, i gotta agree with what Michael said earlier: Did we just hit some kind of crazy-ass time warping worm-hole thatlanded us in 1995?I beg of you, wherever you are, go out and pick up a copy of this book: http://www.wpdfd.com/editorial/wpd1203review.htm#review2 its got some great high level principles in it that may help clear things up. I know it changed the way I think about creating sites. good luck mate, pete
Re: [WSG] web standards detection - is it possible?
it may be best if Peter (a list member) confirms or denies this. Peter? well, hello there :) re received heaps of feedback heaps is a stretch. if i said it, i was exaggerating apologise. but dont sigh curse yet! theres a better story behind it :) While its true when we redesigned http://www.smh.com.au/and http://theage.com.au/in 2003 (?) the helpdesk received some (like a handful) of emails along the lines of I've found your website now looks very plain on my old computer at home compared to my work computer, which is good, its much faster to load now, good job. I stress it was a few, and I dont have records of these (I've since moved onto a new company). In saying that, I found some much, much, more interestingstats recently (in the last 3 months) that showed that of the 5 or so million (thats a rough figure, not exaggerated, growing month on month, dont quote it) uservisits smh.com.au getsper month, 25000 (Twenty five thousand) are still Netscape 4 users. How excellent is that! They get a totally unstyled page and they are still coming back for their news fix. True, its sad they are stuck with an old browser - but to me, this is a clear example of why web standards are the way forward. Those sites have seen real, tangible benefits for the move to css layoutswhich enableda richer experience for users of the latest browsers - while managing to not completely alienate the old browser crew. And those sites are getting a bit old in the tooth now (ie: theres problems with them - dont think I'm preaching they are perfect :). Any site that Fairfax Digital does now improves on the last, and leaving the content unstyled for old browsers like Netscape 4 is just the norm now for them - and certainly anything i design here on in. Hope this helps, its kinda weird quoting stuff from an old job. While we're talking about big picture issues I dont think I'll get into trouble. hopefully ;-) cheers, pete ~~~Peter Ottery ~ Creative DirectorDaemon Pty Ltd 17 Roslyn GardensElizabeth Bay NSW 2011 www.daemon.com.au/
Re: [WSG] web stanards detection - is it possible?
Sam Relying on the User Agent string and browscap in PHP is fraught with danger. Most browsers have the ability to change the UA string. Browser sniffing is a slippery slope... one of those never ending tasks which is more easily solved by coding to the standards and deprecating code nicely to the older clients. HTH James On 7/14/05, sam sherlock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: further more part of my stratergy is too use some kind of php sniffer script ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] REL REV
Chris Kennon wrote: Almost grokked Funny, just now reading Heinlein's Stranger in a strange land to brush up on my sci-fi classics...anyway... link rel=next href=./about.html / link rel=next href=./photos.html / link rel=next href=./contact.html / link rel=next href=./portfolio.html / prev (by the way, my example was wrong as it should indeed be prev, not previous as I originally stated) and next should only be used in a linear sequence of pages. You can't have a one to many type relationship like the above. From contact page: link rev=previous rel =home href=./index.html / link rev=previous rel =about href=./about.html / Not quite. As the example is flawed on the first step, let's take another one: a 3 page collection (page1, page2, page3): Page1 link rel=next rev=prev href=page2.html / (my next page is page2, and i am the prev page of page2) Page2 link rel=prev rev=next href=page1.html / (my prev page is page1, and i am the next page of page1) link rel=next rev=prev href=page3.html / (my next page is page3, and i am the prev page of page3) Page3 link rel=prev rev=next href=page2.html / (my prev page is page2, and i am the next page of page2) As I said, in practice it's enough (IMHO) to use just rel. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web standards detection - is it possible?
russ - maxdesign wrote: I remember the information, as it was a surprising statement, but not the specifics. I seem to recall Doug Bowman saying something similar about the Wired redesign at Web Essentials last year. I've hunted around on the web for a reference, but can't find an article that mentions it. Which means that either it was just verbal, or my memory is even worse than I think it is Hope that adds to the confusion! ;) Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] HTML Codes - Characters and symbols
Won't be long before someone builds an HTML Cheat Sheet Widget (for OSX 10.4). There's already a handy a href=http://bw.watchtan.com/article/132/css-cheat-sheet;CSS cheat sheet... /a Regards PAUL ROSS a href=http://www.skyrocket.com.au;Web Design Sydney/a ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] web standards detection - is it possible?
2005/7/14, Lachlan Hardy [EMAIL PROTECTED]: I seem to recall Doug Bowman saying something similar about the Wired redesign at Web Essentials last year. He talked the story at @media 2005: http://kurafire.net/articles/atmedia-douglas-bowman BTW, I love his story anyway. -- Kazuhito Kidachi mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
