Re: [WSG] Proper IE Hacks

[Philippe Wittenbergh]

On 9 Aug 2005, at 11:19 am, Wayne Godfrey wrote:


Wouldn't IE for Mac also be influenced by the hacks below?

body.index #main {
margin-left: 250px;
_margin-left: 245px;   /* IE hack */
margin-right: 15px;
_margin-right: 10px;   /* IE hack */
background-color: transparent;
}


IE 5.0 Mac does indeed read the underscore hack in some cases. Later 
releases (5.1, 5.2) ignore it.


The testing I've done on IE Mac seems to be holding most everything 
properly, other than a couple of floats adding space below, which I 
expected. Does this make the consensus to use David's method: a 
separate style sheet for IE? IE confuses the ever-living out of me!


It *is* confusing.
But, yes, a separate stylesheet, loaded via conditional comments is the 
most future proof method. Most known IE hacks have been well tested by 
know for IE 6 and older. Nobody knows yet what the final release of IE 
7 will do.



Philippe
---
Philippe Wittenbergh


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Re: [WSG] Proper IE Hacks

[Wayne Godfrey]

Wouldn't IE for Mac also be influenced by the hacks below?

body.index #main {
margin-left: 250px;
_margin-left: 245px;   /* IE hack */
margin-right: 15px;
_margin-right: 10px;   /* IE hack */
background-color: transparent;
}

The testing I've done on IE Mac seems to be holding most everything 
properly, other than a couple of floats adding space below, which I 
expected. Does this make the consensus to use David's method: a 
separate style sheet for IE? IE confuses the ever-living out of me!


w

Wayne Godfrey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

On Aug 8, 2005, at 9:58 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote:


Darren Wood wrote:

I use a very simple rule that will allow for CSS validation...

Its the " * html " selector


As a side note:
- Conditional Comments are IE/Win only (>= v5),
- the star selector hack works with IE/Mac too.

Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com
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Re: [WSG] Proper IE Hacks

[Thierry Koblentz]

Darren Wood wrote:
> I use a very simple rule that will allow for CSS validation...
> 
> Its the " * html " selector

As a side note:
- Conditional Comments are IE/Win only (>= v5),
- the star selector hack works with IE/Mac too.

Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com
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Re: [WSG] Proper IE Hacks

[Al Sparber]

From: "Webmaster" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
[sniff]

You're not alone, Ted.

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

On Behalf Of Drake, Ted C.

Hi Al

I didn't realize you were on the list.  Your web site and coding was 
an
inspiration to me when I first switched to CSS and standards-based 
design.


Thanks fellas. That's about the warmest welcome I could hope for.

--
Al 


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RE: [WSG] Proper IE Hacks

[Webmaster]

[sniff]

You're not alone, Ted. 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Drake, Ted C. 
Sent: Tuesday, 9 August 2005 9:34 AM
To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org'
Subject: RE: [WSG] Proper IE Hacks

Hi Al

I didn't realize you were on the list.  Your web site and coding was an
inspiration to me when I first switched to CSS and standards-based design.

Thanks
Ted
www.tdrake.net


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Al Sparber
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 4:23 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Proper IE Hacks

From: "Jan Brasna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Proper IE Hacks


> When using these filters, be careful - IE7 is coming...

Wise words.

Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain
road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled
for next Tuesday".


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RE: [WSG] Proper IE Hacks

[Drake, Ted C.]

Hi Al

I didn't realize you were on the list.  Your web site and coding was an
inspiration to me when I first switched to CSS and standards-based design.

Thanks
Ted
www.tdrake.net


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Al Sparber
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 4:23 PM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: Re: [WSG] Proper IE Hacks

From: "Jan Brasna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Proper IE Hacks


> When using these filters, be careful - IE7 is coming...

Wise words.

Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling 
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that 
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".


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RE: [WSG] Newbie Questions: East-Asian Character Sets and Marking-up Poetry

[Kwok Ting Lee]

Thanks, everyone.  That's a start on figuring out what to do with
this.  I'll ruminate on it for a bit, do a few tests, maybe let a few
of my readers test it out at a test page and then decide how to deploy
it on the site.  

Kwok Ting Lee 


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Re: [WSG] Proper IE Hacks

[Al Sparber]

From: "Jan Brasna" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: 
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 7:13 PM
Subject: Re: [WSG] Proper IE Hacks



When using these filters, be careful - IE7 is coming...


Wise words.

Al Sparber
PVII
http://www.projectseven.com

"Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling 
mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that 
repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday".



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Re: [WSG] Proper IE Hacks

[Wayne Godfrey]

So my brain has made this entirely too complicated, huh? Can't imagine 
that!


I'm using an @import rule, so my good style sheet would remain the same 
(sans IE hacks) and I can put only the IE hacks in a file with the 
conditional comments around it, is that correct? That's so simple. 
Thanks David, you saved my butt again!


wayne

Wayne Godfrey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Aug 8, 2005, at 6:57 PM, David Laakso wrote:


Wayne Godfrey wrote:

I feel a bit dumb asking this, but there's so much to learn and some 
things sink in better than others! Anyway, I've had to do some hacks 
to get IE to display my site correctly. Now those hacks are causing 
my CSS to not validate. The question is what is the proper way to fix 
this predicament?

[...]

Wayne Godfrey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

One method is to feed styles to good browsers in the usual manner; and 
feed ie its styles using 'conditional comments.'

The good guys get everything but the hacks: style.css

The evil one gets only the hacks: style-ie.css (note the re-name for 
this ie file).


The validator will not see or choke on the 'conditional comments' so 
you'll validate; and you are good to go when IE7 hits the street.

Regards,
David Laakso


--
David Laakso
http://www.dlaakso.com/


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Re: [WSG] Proper IE Hacks

[Darren Wood]

I use a very simple rule that will allow for CSS validation...

Its the " * html " selector

IE thinks there's an extra element outside the HTML element...as we
know there isn't.  what this means is we can exploit it for our IE
hack.  Have a look at the example:

#wrapper { /* all browsers other than IE */
 width: 300px;
 padding: 0 5px;
}

* html #wrapper { /* ignored by everthing but IE */
 width: 310px;
}

I find this the easiest and most simple to keep track of.

HTH
D


On 8/9/05, David Laakso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Wayne Godfrey wrote:
> 
> > I feel a bit dumb asking this, but there's so much to learn and some
> > things sink in better than others! Anyway, I've had to do some hacks
> > to get IE to display my site correctly. Now those hacks are causing my
> > CSS to not validate. The question is what is the proper way to fix
> > this predicament?
> > [...]
> >
> > Wayne Godfrey
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> One method is to feed styles to good browsers in the usual manner; and
> feed ie its styles using 'conditional comments.'
> The good guys get everything but the hacks: style.css
> 
> The evil one gets only the hacks: style-ie.css (note the re-name for
> this ie file).
> 
> The validator will not see or choke on the 'conditional comments' so
> you'll validate; and you are good to go when IE7 hits the street.
> Regards,
> David Laakso
> 
> 
> --
> David Laakso
> http://www.dlaakso.com/
> 
> 
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> 
>
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Re: [WSG] Proper IE Hacks

[Jan Brasna]

When using these filters, be careful - IE7 is coming...

--
Jan Brasna aka JohnyB :: www.alphanumeric.cz | www.janbrasna.com
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Re: [WSG] Proper IE Hacks

[David Laakso]

Wayne Godfrey wrote:

I feel a bit dumb asking this, but there's so much to learn and some 
things sink in better than others! Anyway, I've had to do some hacks 
to get IE to display my site correctly. Now those hacks are causing my 
CSS to not validate. The question is what is the proper way to fix 
this predicament?

[...]

Wayne Godfrey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

One method is to feed styles to good browsers in the usual manner; and 
feed ie its styles using 'conditional comments.'

The good guys get everything but the hacks: style.css

The evil one gets only the hacks: style-ie.css (note the re-name for 
this ie file).


The validator will not see or choke on the 'conditional comments' so 
you'll validate; and you are good to go when IE7 hits the street.

Regards,
David Laakso


--
David Laakso
http://www.dlaakso.com/


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[WSG] Proper IE Hacks

[Wayne Godfrey]

I feel a bit dumb asking this, but there's so much to learn and some 
things sink in better than others! Anyway, I've had to do some hacks to 
get IE to display my site correctly. Now those hacks are causing my CSS 
to not validate. The question is what is the proper way to fix this 
predicament? I'd like to put IE hacks in a separate file on import 
(ie.css) and leave my current CSS (main.css) hack-free. Or I'd like to 
at least know how to correctly use comments. A sample is below and any 
help will be greatly appreciated.


body.index #main {
margin-left: 250px;
_margin-left: 245px;   /* IE hack */
margin-right: 15px;
_margin-right: 10px;   /* IE hack */
background-color: transparent;
}

I have eight areas where the hacks are used. Is it possible to put all 
these hacks in a separate file and get my clean CSS back?


IE Hacks CSS:
body.index #main {
_margin-left: 245px;
_margin-right: 10px;
}

Clean CSS:
body.index #main {
margin-left: 250px;
margin-right: 15px;
background-color: transparent;
}

Or is there a better way to do this?

wayne

Wayne Godfrey
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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Re: [WSG] A web site programming question

[Patrick H. Lauke]

sam sherlock wrote:


You should check out the creamweaver task force sit


I know it's probably a typo, but nonetheless "creamweaver" had me 
chuckling there for a while...


--
Patrick H. Lauke
__
re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively
[latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.]
www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk
http://redux.deviantart.com
__
Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force
http://webstandards.org/
__
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Re: [WSG] self-counting list items

[T. R. Valentine]

On 08/08/05, Drake, Ted C. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I was looking through the w3c specs and came across this example that seems
> to be perfect. But I can't get it to work. Has anyone worked with this
> before?
> 
> http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/generate.html#scope

Yes. See http://plano.lib.il.us/testing/counters.html

It works in Opera 7+. It is supposed to work with the *next* version
of Firefox. It does not work in IE.


-- 
T. R. Valentine
The only excuse for using IE is ignorance (or testing)
(stupidity is a reason, _not_ an excuse).
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[WSG] self-counting list items

[Drake, Ted C.]

Hi All

I've been struggling with the ability to increment nested ordered lists.
I'm trying to update a page that was built with multiple paragraphs that
lead off with 1.1...1.2> Etc etc

Naturally, I'd like to replace these with 



.

I was looking through the w3c specs and came across this example that seems
to be perfect. But I can't get it to work. Has anyone worked with this
before?

http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-CSS2/generate.html#scope 

12.5.1 Nested counters and scope
Counters are "self-nesting", in the sense that re-using a counter in a child
element automatically creates a new instance of the counter. This is
important for situations like lists in HTML, where elements can be nested
inside themselves to arbitrary depth. It would be impossible to define
uniquely named counters for each level. 
Example(s):
Thus, the following suffices to number nested list items. The result is very
similar to that of setting 'display:list-item' and 'list-style: inside' on
the LI element: 
OL { counter-reset: item }
LI { display: block }
LI:before { content: counter(item) ". "; counter-increment: item }

...

The following style sheet numbers nested list items as "1", "1.1", "1.1.1",
etc.

OL { counter-reset: item }
LI { display: block }
LI:before { content: counters(item, "."); counter-increment: item }

I'm checking this in firefox on win.

Ted






 
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RE: [WSG] A web site programming question

[Gary Moyle]

Hi,
 
I've just had a look at the Studio 8 presentation and it looks like Macromedia 
are really addressing some key issues with coding for CSS. Dreamweaver MX 2004 
doesn't render your css layouts at all well. But having said that I use 
Dreamweaver MX 2005 in code view all the time to develop websites and have been 
getting on fine. You just have to test in browsers whenever possible.
 
I have to admit I still don't think I would trust the new version of 
Dreamweaver 100% for testing your layout. I'd still rather test in the usual 
supects (IE 5.*, 6, FireFOx, Safari, Opera etc) to be on the safe side.
 
Gary Moyle
www.webdesigngoldmine.com



From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of Angus at InfoForce Services
Sent: Mon 08/08/2005 18:11
To: WSG List
Subject: [WSG] A web site programming question



I do not know if this is off topic for this list. Just incase please reply
to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank you.

I am a web site designer that hand codes with EditPlus and like to build
header and footer files (basic template(. I am about to start working with
an individual that uses FrontPage for web site design. I am not impressed
with WYSIWYG editors and FrontPage even less. I am looking at purchaseing
DreamWeaver for future web site design. What would be your advice to ensure
that everything meets web standards?

Angus MacKinnon
MacKinnon Crest Saying
Latin -  Audentes Fortuna Juvat
English - Fortune Assists The Daring
Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president
Choroideremia Research Foundation Canada Inc. 1st Vice President
http://www.choroideremia.org

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<>

RE: [WSG] A web site programming question

[Drake, Ted C.]

This is usually off-topic, but I would like to add that WASP has been
working with Macromedia and it looks like it has paid off. Macromedia is
announcing the new Dreamweaver 8 and it looks like their support for
standards-based programming has grown tremendously.  The flash movie has a
sneak preview and the sample code in the movie, i.e. watch how easy this is
to work in the code section... is clean and semantic.

So, if you are looking into Dreamweaver, see if you can get the new version.
I'm looking forward to upgrading. It would be nice to switch from code to
design and actually see the page the way a browser would display a css based
web page.

http://www.macromedia.com/software/studio/experience/


Ted


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Angus at InfoForce Services
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 10:11 AM
To: WSG List
Subject: [WSG] A web site programming question

I do not know if this is off topic for this list. Just incase please reply 
to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank you.

I am a web site designer that hand codes with EditPlus and like to build 
header and footer files (basic template(. I am about to start working with 
an individual that uses FrontPage for web site design. I am not impressed 
with WYSIWYG editors and FrontPage even less. I am looking at purchaseing 
DreamWeaver for future web site design. What would be your advice to ensure 
that everything meets web standards?

Angus MacKinnon
MacKinnon Crest Saying
Latin -  Audentes Fortuna Juvat
English - Fortune Assists The Daring
Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president
Choroideremia Research Foundation Canada Inc. 1st Vice President
http://www.choroideremia.org

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 See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
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Re: [WSG] A web site programming question

[sam sherlock]

Hi,


You should check out
the creamweaver task force sit


There are a number of
adjustments and customisations you'll need to make



http://webstandards.org/act/campaign/dwtf/


atb> Sam



Angus at InfoForce
Services wrote:
I
do not know if this is off topic for this list. Just incase please
reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Thank you.
  
  
I am a web site designer that hand codes with EditPlus and like to
build header and footer files (basic template(. I am about to start
working with an individual that uses FrontPage for web site design. I
am not impressed with WYSIWYG editors and FrontPage even less. I am
looking at purchaseing DreamWeaver for future web site design. What
would be your advice to ensure that everything meets web standards?
  
  
Angus MacKinnon
  
MacKinnon Crest Saying
  
Latin -  Audentes Fortuna Juvat
  
English - Fortune Assists The Daring
  
Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president
  
Choroideremia Research Foundation Canada Inc. 1st Vice President
  
http://www.choroideremia.org
  
  
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
  
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
  
**
  
  
  

[WSG] A web site programming question

[Angus at InfoForce Services]

I do not know if this is off topic for this list. Just incase please reply 
to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank you.


I am a web site designer that hand codes with EditPlus and like to build 
header and footer files (basic template(. I am about to start working with 
an individual that uses FrontPage for web site design. I am not impressed 
with WYSIWYG editors and FrontPage even less. I am looking at purchaseing 
DreamWeaver for future web site design. What would be your advice to ensure 
that everything meets web standards?


Angus MacKinnon
MacKinnon Crest Saying
Latin -  Audentes Fortuna Juvat
English - Fortune Assists The Daring
Choroideremia Research Foundation Inc. 2nd Vice president
Choroideremia Research Foundation Canada Inc. 1st Vice President
http://www.choroideremia.org

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[WSG] slop factor-- curing float drops in IE

[Drake, Ted C.]

Bruce

If you don't want your columns to drop down you need to make sure the sum of
the columns widths does not equal more than the width of the container. If
you need a tight layout, it's worth spending some time to establish filters
to deliver special widths to IE.

I believe most people go for the easier "slop factor" (whether they realize
it or not). Make your columns skinny enough to leave a gutter between the
two columns.  For instance, the content div is 770px wide. The maincontent
div is 550px and the sidebar is 200px wide. This gives you 20px for slop
factor. Float the maincontent to the right, the sidebar to the left and
you've got that 20px between them.

Now use the faux column background approach to apply a background image that
visually defines the two columns and you have a fairly simple two column
layout that will behave fairly well.

It's not perfect, nor bullet proof, as you are just ignoring the browser
behaviors and leaving room for misbehavior.  But if your layout doesn't
require perfect control, this will do just fine.

Ted



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Bruce Gilbert
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2005 6:40 AM
To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org
Subject: [WSG] curing float drops in IE

I am always having trouble with my floats dropping below the container
\s they are being floated against in IE. Other than reducing the
amount of space (since IE adds extra padding I believe), is there a
good way to prevent this from occurring?

for example I have two columns with the css as:

#left_column{/*positioning for left column*/
float:left;
width:310px;
margin-left:15px;
}

#right_column{/*positioning for right column*/
width:448px;
margin-left:360px;
padding-left:10px;
}


and the right column drops down in IE 


-- 
::Bruce::
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Re: [WSG] curing float drops in IE

[akella]

try
#left_column{/*positioning for left column*/
float:left;
width:300px;
}
#right_column{/*positioning for right column*/
float:right;
width:200px;
}
may be u'll have less problems...
#left_column{/*positioning for left column*/float:left;width:310px;margin-left:15px;
}#right_column{/*positioning for right column*/width:448px;margin-left:360px;padding-left:10px;}and the right column drops down in IE--::Bruce::**
The discussion list for  http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
 for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**-- gl&hf,akella.

[WSG] curing float drops in IE

[Bruce Gilbert]

I am always having trouble with my floats dropping below the container
\s they are being floated against in IE. Other than reducing the
amount of space (since IE adds extra padding I believe), is there a
good way to prevent this from occurring?

for example I have two columns with the css as:

#left_column{/*positioning for left column*/
float:left;
width:310px;
margin-left:15px;
}

#right_column{/*positioning for right column*/
width:448px;
margin-left:360px;
padding-left:10px;
}


and the right column drops down in IE 


-- 
::Bruce::
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Re: [WSG] Newbie Questions: East-Asian Character Sets and Marking-up Poetry

[Juergen Auer]

On 8 Aug 2005 at 13:47, Kwok Ting Lee wrote:

> Anyway, the
> question I have is (and this may be somewhat off-topic), but how would
> one go about hiding the Chinese characters for those people who do not
> have Chinese fonts enabled on their system? 

I didn't test it, but it should work: With JavaScript it should be 
possible to check which language the browser has selected (en-GB, de 
or zh, zh-cn etc.). Then put the chinese text into the noscript-part 
and an additionally div (with id), so users with deactivated 
JavaScript see the text. The script-Element should copy the div and 
manipulate the visibility of it.

I have a small javascript with Unicode at my Unicode-Database/Online-
tools, Richard Ishida's UniView 
(http://www.w3.org/People/Ishida/utilities.html) shows also a lot of 
JavaScript/Unicode-things.


Regards
Juergen Auer
http://www.sql-und-xml.de/

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Re: [WSG] Logic? ADMIN

[russ - maxdesign]

ADMIN

OK, no need to answer this aspect of the thread any more. The user has been
sent to a happier place - the land of Unsubscribe.

Russ


>> Please don't send this type of message. Hope by mistake this type of message
>> are coming in my id.. I am not related to this message. Please do the
>> needful.

> It seems you need to login to the Web Standards Group server and
> unsubscribe.

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Re: [WSG] Logic?

[Rick Faaberg]

On 8/8/05 2:05 AM "Vinod Sharma" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> sent this out:

> Dear Prabhat
> 
> Please don't send this type of message. Hope by mistake this type of message
> are coming in my id.. I am not related to this message. Please do the needful.
> 
> Regd
> VINOD

It seems you need to login to the Web Standards Group server and
unsubscribe.

Go here  and scroll down and do the Member
Login.

Then, click on Unsubscribe and you'll be on your way very soon.

Is that what you need?

Rick Faaberg

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[WSG] Calling all CSS-Savvy Designers

[Mugur Padurean]

Quote from The Web Standards Project :


**

Kevin Lawver, AOL's representative to the CSS Working Group, is making a 


plea  to the design community to give the Working Group feedback on the CSS3 Borders and Backgrounds module
. 



It isn't often one gets the opportunity to help define the tools
you'll be using in your job, and this is a golden opportunity. There's
quite a thread already started, but really it's nowhere near as
exhaustive as one would expect for such a significant request. Let's
change that, pronto: add your comments to his 


post and tell all your friends.


We've been waiting a lng time for CSS3. Let's make sure it's worth the wait.



I think it's clear why we MUST act on this oportunity. NOW !


Kevin's post is here:
http://www.lawver.net/archive/2005/07/18/h16_help_the_css_working_group_with_backgrounds_and_borders.php




The Web Standards Project is here:
http://www.webstandards.org/

Kevin Lauver website is here:
http://www.lawver.net

The CSS3 Borders and Backgrounds module is here:
http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-css3-background-20050216/


 

Re: [WSG] Logic?

[Vinod Sharma]

Dear Prabhat
 
Please don't send this type of message. Hope by mistake this type of message are coming in my id.. I am not related to this message. Please do the needful.
 
Regd
VINOD[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Prabhath,I understand, and I knew there had to be more to it.Respectfully,Mario>> Please forgive me if I've missed something, but I must respectfully disagree. I've created a number of fixed-width layouts centered within the viewport at 760px, and>> floated one-column left and the other column right inside a container div without issue. Yes, I've done it without problems too. But the situation discussed here is different because> the container has a border, which should be as tall as the tallest of the content elements> "inside" it. If this tallest element happens to be floated, and that float is *not* cleared> *inside* the container, the container will not "stretch" down to wrap it.>> If it were not for that border, we could've gone ahead and used
 a> non-wrapping container, and used "clear: both" for any footer content.>> cheers,> Prabhath> http://nidahas.com> **> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/>> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
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