Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
On Thu, 2005-09-08 at 16:46 +1000, John Allsopp wrote: > You'll hear more about that at WE045 I hope we don't have to wait until 2045 for quality coding to catch on! ;-) Kind Regards, Joshua Street base10solutions Website: http://www.base10solutions.com.au/ Phone: (02) 9898-0060 Fax: (02) 8572-6021 Mobile: 0425 808 469 Multimedia Development Agency ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
Hi all, Now we are getting to the core of it! What we need is ISO standardisation for web development! Something like the famous ISO 9000. Quality Control! I an hoping that is an ironic exclamation mark. If you want to be a Quality Accredited web development business, you need to follow a strict line of internationally recognised standards. Of course you can go off track and do the usual shabby invalid HTML crap, but for the serious people an ISO is the perfect solution. for very wealthy organisations ISO9000 is a ludicrous amount of paperwork required to pick up certain government contracts and so on, excluding many smaller providers. It's the last thing the web needs IMO. BTW, there is an ISO version of HTML if you really want to use it. The beauty of the web is its bottom up nature You can largely do automated testing for quality - valid CSS, HTML, WAI compliance - using open source tools, for free. All I can say is, based on a lot of recent auditing, quality of this nature is exceedingly rare in major Australian sites. You'll hear more about that at WE045 john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Mobile Buttons
On 9/8/05, russ - maxdesign <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dunno about that but I know of two silly alternatives: > > A remote control device done in CSS: > http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/remote/remote-new.htm > > An IPod emulator: > http://www.podsites.com/emulator-result.cfm ...and if you want it to work (able to use calculator, dial numbers and write SMS), here's a script: http://codingforums.com/showthread.php?t=37148 :) Andrew --- leftjustified.net ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] CSS Mobile Buttons
Dunno about that but I know of two silly alternatives: A remote control device done in CSS: http://www.maxdesign.com.au/presentation/remote/remote-new.htm An IPod emulator: http://www.podsites.com/emulator-result.cfm :) Russ > Does anyone remember on this list an example someone put together of an > XHTML/CSS page feature a picture of a mobile phone where you could 'click' > on the buttons (which were positioned via CSS)? > > Tried looking in the archive, but can't find it. > Cheers :o) > > Richard ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] CSS Mobile Buttons
Does anyone remember on this list an example someone put together of an XHTML/CSS page feature a picture of a mobile phone where you could 'click' on the buttons (which were positioned via CSS)? Tried looking in the archive, but can't find it. Cheers :o) Richard ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
> -Original Message- > From: Scott Swabey - Lafinboy Productions > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 2:49 PM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays > standards redesign > > This has evolved into an interesting topic! > > > The difference, as far as I can see, is that other industries > have their > standards rigidly applied. If you build something sub-standard in > construction it goes through several approval stages, so > might not even make > it to completion. If it does get through this process > undetected, and is > later found out, then the persons responsible are liable to > fines and in > some cases imprisonment. Now I'm not saying we should police > web design and > development in quite the same way - it would be almost > impossible to do, and > would serve little purpose. Now we are getting to the core of it! What we need is ISO standardisation for web development! Something like the famous ISO 9000. Quality Control! If you want to be a Quality Accredited web development business, you need to follow a strict line of internationally recognised standards. Of course you can go off track and do the usual shabby invalid HTML crap, but for the serious people an ISO is the perfect solution. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
Bert, So you used to be an ISO9001 auditor - I still am one. Tell me, HOW DID YOU ESCAPE ??? John ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
This has evolved into an interesting topic! I started my working life as an apprentice carpenter (some time ago now!). I attended a tech college as part of the apprenticeship learning the skills needed to be a carpenter, and also the regulations and building codes that I would eventually have to build to and comply with. Construction is much like web development in that the standards, methods and tools change quite frequently. At no point was I ever taught to out of date standards/regulations - that would have constituted malpractice on the part of the educators. The difference, as far as I can see, is that other industries have their standards rigidly applied. If you build something sub-standard in construction it goes through several approval stages, so might not even make it to completion. If it does get through this process undetected, and is later found out, then the persons responsible are liable to fines and in some cases imprisonment. Now I'm not saying we should police web design and development in quite the same way - it would be almost impossible to do, and would serve little purpose. The point is, no matter what standards are formulated and pushed by groups like this, they are only going to be best practice recommendations. And so their implementation and promotion can only be achieved by active promotion to _higher_bodies_ responsible for the eduction of future developers, and to key personnel in government and major businesses and industries. Once these people have taken on board the need for compliance with the standards, the message and methods filter down. Businesses will request and expect contracts be completed to standards, educators will teach to standards. Current developers will be forced to code to standards if businesses request so. This is my 0.005c (times are hard!) Regards Scott Swabey Lafinboy Productions www.lafinboy.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
Lachlan Hardy wrote: > The key component there, though, is convincing the relevant > curriculum bodies of the importance of standards-based design. My thought (and I blogged on this today - interesting discussion!) is that it's not something to be "added" to a curriculum, rather it's part of teaching basic web design and the use of web development tools. It's just as easy to teach good coding as bad coding, and tools like Dreamweaver can be used to code to standards or not - so why not teach about standards from the start? Though I agree to get those words in a course outline (web standards, web accessibility and so on) might be a bit of a battle... Nevertheless the teachers still need to somehow gain an understanding of why it is a good thing to teach web standards. Groups like the WSG have a big role to play there. For example, our first Perth WSG meeting was at Edith Cowan University and was attended by some of the teaching staff. (I'm not saying these staff members previously didn't know or care about web standards - not at all. But the thing is, we didn't know either way so it was a good opportunity and we hope they found it valuable in one way or another.) So getting out there amongst people who are in a position to change things is one potentially effective method. Vicki. :-) -- Vicki Berry DistinctiveWeb Web: http://www.distinctiveweb.com.au Blog: http://www.unheardword.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
Seona Bellamy wrote: > I can't see why it wouldn't be the same for teachers. I mean, English > and Literature teachers need to read the texts they will be taking > their class through so that they are familiar with the material. When > the way of approaching mathematics changed (my mother has told some > highly amusing anecdotes about being a student during the shift to "new > maths" back in the late 60s/early 70s) all the maths teachers would > have had to go out and learn the new approach and new techniques so > they could teach their students. Why can't the same be said of Web > Development teachers? Because that would require a directive from "above". And would still be resisted for all the usual reasons that change is resisted. The key component there, though, is convincing the relevant curriculum bodies of the importance of standards-based design. Independent institutions such as TAFEs, universities and private schools can determine their curriculum to greater or lesser extent. Government schools cannot. Organisations such as (in Australia), VCAA and its equivalents in other states and the Curriculum Corporation etc need to be convinced. Another way to reach teachers is via teaching associations or computing associations. I've yet to hear of anyone making any ground in any of those arenas pushing a standards-based agenda Anyone with ideas for taking those academic ivory towers by storm is welcome to email me personally if they don't want to share with the list Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
On 9/8/05, Craig Rippon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Have filed a formal complaint against the instructor (who happens to run 10 > I am no longer attending his classes and may not get my Diploma. Hi Craig, Don't let it get you down, I went through exactly the same thing in '03-'04 while attending Qantm in the Brissy CBD. Fortunately for me, although most of my instructors had little to no experience with current techniques, they at least understood why I stopped attending after 6 months and instead chose to furiously study at home. I proudly state that I gained the majority of my skill set from two sources, blogs and codingforums.com (shameless plug!! ;). Attending a private college whose techniques were so behind the times taught me one very important thing: being a web developer is much like being a musician -- you either wake up every day thinking "I am a student; what can I learn today?" or you are retired. I don't care if you're still working -- if you're not learning, you're retired :) So, after avoiding learning outdated techniques in favour of teaching myself XHTML/CSS/unobtrusive scripting, my time studying and 5 figure bill gave me exactly what I expected it to -- a piece of paper that got me into job interviews. In Australia it's all about the piece of paper, unfortunately :( Once you're in the door, it's all about your skills. Don't talk porrly of your former learning institute, just let the interview panel know that you feared the educational sector's ability to keep up with a field that shifts focus and methods as quickly as web development; therefore, you took it upon yourself to ensure that your skills are in sync with industry standards. (or 'developing standards', in the case of early adoption of techniques/technologies). Am I full of it? Is the above advice a complete load? Well, I wrote my first HTML file in 2003 and I'm now a senior multimedia developer for a 5 campus university -- the 'dream job' I focused on for all those late, late nights in front of a glowing CRT :) all the best, Andrew. http://leftjustified.net/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Problems with print style and general site check
James Gollan wrote:
Hi, I am having a problem getting a print stylesheet to work in
Firefox 1.04 Win. It works in opera and IE, but in Fireforx the home
page doesn't show up the images as expected. Actually, I have found
the print preview in most recent versions of Firefox to cause crashes
regularly - anyone else have this issue?
www.abbychambers.com
No crashing, but my Firefox 1.0 need this change to print-style:
.teaser {float: none;}
...because FF can't handle floats well in print.
This means the print won't be as compact, but at least it comes out alright.
Opera prints better with this change:
body,#pageContainer
{
background: #fff;
}
...or otherwise it'll print the screen-background.
Georg
--
http://www.gunlaug.no
**
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See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
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Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
On 08/09/2005, at 11:24 AM, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: But you have to agree it is much easier to stay up-to-date if you work in the field every day and actually practically implement new technologies. If a company looks for new staff members they will think twice before employing somebody who has got no practical experience in the field. For a good reason - you might have read a book about it, but you don't know it until you have done it. Teachers at University/Tafe/Highschool do not have the opportunity to try out what they learn, yet they still have to stand infront of the students confidently and teach them an ever-changing technology. That's bloody hard! Developers learn something in theory, try it out practically, and if it doesn't work they will keep on trying as the go along until they understand it. Maybe I am just a practical kind of person, but that's the way I see it. On the other hand, even when I was working as a freelance developer and often flat to the boards trying to meet a deadline, I still made an effort to put aside some time each day to read up on the latest ideas and techniques and try to put them into practise is a private sandbox. When I couldn't make them work, I wrote to lists like this one and asked advice. When I finally had then nutted out and understood them, then I could put them into practise in future projects. I can't see why it wouldn't be the same for teachers. I mean, English and Literature teachers need to read the texts they will be taking their class through so that they are familiar with the material. When the way of approaching mathematics changed (my mother has told some highly amusing anecdotes about being a student during the shift to "new maths" back in the late 60s/early 70s) all the maths teachers would have had to go out and learn the new approach and new techniques so they could teach their students. Why can't the same be said of Web Development teachers? Cheers, Seona. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Problems with print style and general site check
James Gollan wrote: Hi David, thanks for the feedback. I have to agree that the text, particularly on the home page, lacks contrast. I will look to make it a little darker. As for the emphasis being on the designer rather than the painter, I don't feel this was the case. The painter was very involved during the design process and, working in the field of visual communication, very particular about the type of site she wanted. I actually started out designing a far more standard layout that was rejected. My opinion was a gut level 'feeling' as a user-- no personal implications toward you, or the client, intended. If you mean that the site fails to communicate and that there are other issues involved I would be really interested to know what they are so I can address them. Thanks again for taking the time (no ideas on the print style?) My printer serves as a doorstop, so can't help there, either. Cheers James FWIW: The emphasis seems to be on the designer rather than the painter for whom the site has been designed? I find the text far too light and unreadable. Best, David Laakso Regards, David Laakso ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators
I can tell you from my experience studying/teaching web site design and development at TAFE and personally studying at Masters Level in Interactive Multimedia, that the top, conscientious students I saw graduating from TAFE definitely had practical skills and knowledge advanced enough that they could have breezed through the prac subjects in the Masters. absolutely without a doubt. -Original Message- From: Craig Rippon [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 11:12 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign I'm actually a real champion of the TAFE system, the skills I learned at my last TAFE course lasted me 15 years, absolutely brilliant. -Original Message- From: Peter Williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 10:55 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign > From: Herrod, Lisa > > There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute > (ultimo TAFE) who understand and teach... Maybe TAFE is better than most other educational institutes. I did some welding courses quite a few years ago and the instructors we had were brilliant practitioners and knew the theory well too. They had all had long years in the trade (boilermaking). -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
But you have to agree it is much easier to stay up-to-date if you work inthe field every day and actually practically implement new technologies. If a company looks for new staff members they will think twice before employingsomebody who has got no practical experience in the field. For a good reason- you might have read a book about it, but you don't know it until you have done it. Teachers at University/Tafe/Highschool do not have the opportunityto try out what they learn, yet they still have to stand infront of thestudents confidently and teach them an ever-changing technology. That's bloody hard!Developers learn something in theory, try it out practically, and if itdoesn't work they will keep on trying as the go along until they understandit. Maybe I am just a practical kind of person, but that's the way I see it. I would believe that, if it weren't for the fact that there are so many web design companies / freelancers out there that are still selling non-standards based design. I think the problem is still that browsers allow mistakes and old code. The old, if it ain't broke, don't fix it!
Re: [WSG] Tables - a challenge!
designer wrote: OK, I don't use tables, except for tabular data. I've been doing this standards stuff for for just one year and there is only one place where I use a table for layout, and that is to put something (div, or whatever) slap bang in the middle of the screen, both vertically and horizontally. There are many ways to do this, but none of them (that I know) are as simple or as reliable as this method using a single-cell table: G'day Bob, It is of somewhat limited use, due to width constraints, but this works beautifully in the right circumstances: "http://www.w3.org/TR/html4/strict.dtd";> content="text/html; charset=utf-8">Centre test html, body {height: 100%; margin: 0; padding: 0;}div#content {background-color: #FFC; height: 50%; width: 50%; position: absolute; left: 25%; top: 25%; }Oooh, a heading A sub-heading Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Duis nonummy posuere tortor. Ut sollicitudin imperdiet ante. Quisque facilisis porta turpis. Ut porttitor dictum tellus. Aliquam in risus. Duis magna est, lobortis nec, gravida vitae, tempor eget, magna. Phasellus luctus enim in tortor. Save all that as an HTML file and see what you think Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
> -Original Message- > From: Nick Gleitzman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 11:09 AM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays > standards redesign > > On 8 Sep 2005, at 10:43 AM, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: > > > But not everybody can afford this kind of employment mix. > If you are a > > full > > time lecturer all you can rely on is books, training courses and > > seminars to > > learn from. > > What about the web itself? > > > That's actually no different to being a student, with the > > exception that the lecturer has got a full time job in addition to > > having to > > learn all the stuff they have to then teach. > > ...and that's no different from having a full-time job as a > developer, > and having to research - and learn - all the new stuff. But you have to agree it is much easier to stay up-to-date if you work in the field every day and actually practically implement new technologies. If a company looks for new staff members they will think twice before employing somebody who has got no practical experience in the field. For a good reason - you might have read a book about it, but you don't know it until you have done it. Teachers at University/Tafe/Highschool do not have the opportunity to try out what they learn, yet they still have to stand infront of the students confidently and teach them an ever-changing technology. That's bloody hard! Developers learn something in theory, try it out practically, and if it doesn't work they will keep on trying as the go along until they understand it. Maybe I am just a practical kind of person, but that's the way I see it. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
On 8 Sep 2005, at 10:43 AM, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: H This is going way off-topic, right? No, no - I've enjoyed the couple of heatedly debated threads over the past couple of days far more than the 'please fix my code' posts - without please or thank you - that are such a prominent feature of this list. It *is* a discussion group, isn't it? And I think that formal education of Standards is a critical way to get the word out there... and so, on topic. Admin, if you disagree, I'm sure we'll hear from you... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
I'm actually a real champion of the TAFE system, the skills I learned at my last TAFE course lasted me 15 years, absolutely brilliant. -Original Message- From: Peter Williams [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 10:55 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign > From: Herrod, Lisa > > There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute > (ultimo TAFE) who understand and teach... Maybe TAFE is better than most other educational institutes. I did some welding courses quite a few years ago and the instructors we had were brilliant practitioners and knew the theory well too. They had all had long years in the trade (boilermaking). -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
On 8 Sep 2005, at 10:43 AM, Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: But not everybody can afford this kind of employment mix. If you are a full time lecturer all you can rely on is books, training courses and seminars to learn from. What about the web itself? That's actually no different to being a student, with the exception that the lecturer has got a full time job in addition to having to learn all the stuff they have to then teach. ...and that's no different from having a full-time job as a developer, and having to research - and learn - all the new stuff. This industry makes it really hard to be a good long-term teacher, I think. If you are professor of mathematics you can pretty much rely on things not changing too much over the years. But teaching web development or something similar requires you to be learning new things non-stop. Of course it does - as does any field that is based on emerging, and rapidly changing, technology. Sorry, but 'I haven't got time' is a copout, IMO. I think what's more relevant is how long it takes for curriculum changes to be formulated, approved, and implemented - which takes time, because of the administrative structure of so many educational institutions. I know - I've worked on curriculum development committees in the past, and it took two years for the changes to reach the students - by which time the real world had moved on... N __ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
Herrod, Lisa wrote: I'm starting to see a new reality show... something like 'Rock school' but it would be called 'standards school' Well, although it bears no relation to Sydney, or indeed, tertiary education, there is a high school in Victoria teaching standards-based web design. As I think I may have mentioned on the list before, I wrote a few courses, and even delivered some. I was teaching (whilst supervised by a qualified teacher, of course) Year 8 students standards-based web design - coding HTML and CSS from scratch in Notepad. They grasped it pretty quickly, although I suppose that most will forget it or have their knowledge corrupted by future use of FrontPage or something I've since moved on to a corporate job, but my father is still there teaching a course of mine (with his own modifications) to Year 11 and 12 students The main problem is that the kind of tutorials and articles that we all learnt from, and the investigation and exploration we all did (and are doing, hopefully) are completely unsuited to teaching a class full of students. Particularly those in high-school You want to educate the educators? Provide them with material tailored for use in the classroom that they can use immediately Seona wrote: Might have considered getting into teaching myself, except that it would mean I had to deal with students... Actually, dealing with staff was worse! Students are easy, you just show them cool stuff and they get excited. Staff are way too jaded for that to work. They just want stuff that won't take up any extra time in their day. As Andreas said, they don't have time to maintain the requisite knowledge Cheers Lachlan ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon - THREAD CLOSED
From: "russ - maxdesign" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Web Standards Group" Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 6:38 PM Subject: Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon - THREAD CLOSED THREAD CLOSED The reason for the closure of this thread is that while it had been interesting and informative, it has definitely moved away from open discussion into strongly held views and lines of demarcation. Please do not reply to this thread or comment on the thread closure to the list. If you have a problem with the closing of this thread, please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sorry, Russ. I read and replied to John's mail before I read this. Smart move and I agree wholeheartedly. Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com "Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday". ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
From: "John Allsopp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I guess what keeps me coming back back to this pointless and frustrating discussion is certainly not for my sake. I could care less that people choose to continue using tables for layout. But when people advocate it as a sensible, reasonable alternative to CSS in any circumstance, then I feel it my weary duty for the sake of people who might be mislead by this to take up the cudgels. And wat keep me in discussions like this is that I believe it is people like you who are misleading. You make it sound to the novice as if CSS and Tables were competing technologies. You should know better. If anyone would like accurate information, feel free to contact me offlist. This has gotten way out of hand and I can't imagine your motives. Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com "Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday". ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
> From: Herrod, Lisa > > There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney > Institute (ultimo TAFE) who understand and teach... Maybe TAFE is better than most other educational institutes. I did some welding courses quite a few years ago and the instructors we had were brilliant practitioners and knew the theory well too. They had all had long years in the trade (boilermaking). -- Peter Williams ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] site not looking good in Mozilla/FF!
Yep, use photoshop to combine the left and right shadows and the blue column background in one image. Because you have a fixed width layout, they can be one background image. cheers, Geoff. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bruce Gilbert Sent: Wednesday, 7 September 2005 11:38 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] site not looking good in Mozilla/FF! thanks for the advice/suggestions. How do you add more than one background to a div? Or are you saying to combine the shadow and blue left column image in photoshop? Not quite understanding that, sorry. Also, what about the right shadow image? thanks, On 9/7/05, Geoff Pack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Bruce, It's not looking too good in IE either - enlarge the text and the content wraps below the left nav. General advice: get it working on Firefox *first*, and then adjust to work on IE. Specific advice: 1. Get rid of the wrapper divs - you only need the outer one. Put the background on the outer wrapper - you can include both shadows, the dark blue left column background, and the grey vertical line in the one background image. By putting all this in the wrapper background, it will extend to the whole length of the wrapper, and you won't need the Project 7 JavaScript (which doesn't seem to be working for FF). 2. Give the header, the left column, and the footer a left-margin equal to the width of your left shadow. 3. You don't need the content wrapper either. All you really need is: wrapper header [clear] left_col, top_bar [break] center_col, right_col, [clear] footer close wrapper 4. top_bar: right-align the text instead of using all that left padding. hope this helps... cheers, -- Geoff Pack Developer ABC New Media > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Bruce Gilbert > Sent: Wednesday, 7 September 2005 2:05 PM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: [WSG] site not looking good in Mozilla/FF! > > > I tested the following site I am working on in Mozilla and it's not > looking too good at the moment. > > the URL is: http://www.semlogic.com/test/index.htm > > and the CSS is http://semlogic.com/test/CSS/Global.css > > some of the issues are the left menu isn't displaying properly, the > background image for the left column isn't displaying and the footer > background isn't extending to the content. Also, the grey bar at the > top isn't looking right. > > Everthing validates, and it actually looks as expected in IE, but I > know that these issues, are probably due to coding misjudgements, so > if they could be pointed out, I would be greatly appreciative! > > -- > ::Bruce:: ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
I think it was Russ (Maxdesign) told me that there at least a couple of Sydney TAFEs that teach Diploma IT Web Development really well, one of them was Blue Mountains TAFE (too far from Brisbane unfortunately). -Original Message- From: Herrod, Lisa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 10:05 AM To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' Subject: RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign John! I wasn't talking about me! I'm not there anymore LOL I won't name names, but I will say they're lurking about on this list... you know who you are people :) I'm starting to see a new reality show... something like 'Rock school' but it would be called 'standards school' - john perhaps you can take over Gene simmons role...? :) -Original Message- From: John Allsopp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:58 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign Then again, I used to teach at Northern Sydney IT - they aren't all lucky enough to get you Lisa :-) john On 08/09/2005, at 9:48 AM, Herrod, Lisa wrote: > There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute > (ultimo > TAFE) who understand and teach web site design and development with a > real focus on web standards. Their knowledge is extremely current and > while the old addage of > >> 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' >> > > is sometimes true, it isn't always. and defineitely not in this case. > > Lisa > > > > -Original Message- > From: Seona Bellamy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:36 AM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards > redesign > > > On 08/09/2005, at 9:14 AM, Nick Gleitzman wrote: > > >> On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote: >> >> >> >>> by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college >>> in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of >>> DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to close >>> , 'cause they don't need to be closed. >>> >>> >> >> Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can, do. >> Those that can't, teach.' >> >> Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that >> tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed >> with what's happening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given the >> administrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run education >> - but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch, you should >> complain - in writing - to the highest power that you can. Maybe your >> local MP? It may take years for change to come about, and probably >> won't help you, but it may help the students down the line... >> >> > > And in the meantime, you've got us to help you learn to do it right! > *grin* > > Seriously, though, when I did my uni course we had a subject on > usability and accessibility and it touched briefly (very briefly) on > CSS. Pity none of the tutors really understood it. *sigh* I ended up > taking one of the tutes myself, because I was the only one in the > class who knew what the lecturer was getting at. > > Might have considered getting into teaching myself, except that it > would mean I had to deal with students... > > > Cheers, > > Seona. > ** > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help > ** > ** > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help > ** > > John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ***
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
> -Original Message- > From: Herrod, Lisa [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:48 AM > To: 'wsg@webstandardsgroup.org' > Subject: RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays > standards redesign > > There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney > Institute (ultimo > TAFE) who understand and teach web site design and > development with a real > focus on web standards. Their knowledge is extremely current > and while the > old addage of > > 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' > > is sometimes true, it isn't always. and defineitely not in this case. > > Lisa > > To the defense of the university/tafe lecturers: it is extremely hard to stay up-to-date with the latest technology if you don't have any possibility to practically implement it. I used to teach at university for 2 years and then decided to stop when I realised even after that short period of time I was not keeping up with the latest developments. I returned to the practical work of development for a few years, which really helped me get back to standard quickly. You just have to work in the industry to really understand what it is all about and to be able to prepare your students for the "real world". Now I have decided to do a few guest lectures at university, which will allow me to keep working in the industry, but at the same time I can teach the students the kind of stuff I would have loved to know when I was in their shoes. But not everybody can afford this kind of employment mix. If you are a full time lecturer all you can rely on is books, training courses and seminars to learn from. That's actually no different to being a student, with the exception that the lecturer has got a full time job in addition to having to learn all the stuff they have to then teach. This industry makes it really hard to be a good long-term teacher, I think. If you are professor of mathematics you can pretty much rely on things not changing too much over the years. But teaching web development or something similar requires you to be learning new things non-stop. H This is going way off-topic, right? ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] IE Issues For BushidoDeep
Hi, In VPC 7.0.2 IE the following site(bushidoDeep.com) has the following issues: 1. The navigation is wrapping to another line. 2. the about section is missing. Site looks as expected in FF, Safari and Opera. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators
On 8 Sep 2005, at 9:48 AM, Herrod, Lisa wrote: There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute (ultimo TAFE) who understand and teach web site design and development with a real focus on web standards. Their knowledge is extremely current and while the old addage of 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' is sometimes true, it isn't always. and defineitely not in this case. Thanks for the heads up, Lisa - that's really good to know. I did preface that adage with '(cynical)' - and I realise that my comments about education were a vast generalisation. So, newbies of the world, take note - Sydney is the place to be, if you want to learn how to do it right! N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
John! I wasn't talking about me! I'm not there anymore LOL I won't name names, but I will say they're lurking about on this list... you know who you are people :) I'm starting to see a new reality show... something like 'Rock school' but it would be called 'standards school' - john perhaps you can take over Gene simmons role...? :) -Original Message- From: John Allsopp [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:58 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign Then again, I used to teach at Northern Sydney IT - they aren't all lucky enough to get you Lisa :-) john On 08/09/2005, at 9:48 AM, Herrod, Lisa wrote: > There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute > (ultimo > TAFE) who understand and teach web site design and development with > a real > focus on web standards. Their knowledge is extremely current and > while the > old addage of > >> 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' >> > > is sometimes true, it isn't always. and defineitely not in this case. > > Lisa > > > > -Original Message- > From: Seona Bellamy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:36 AM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards > redesign > > > On 08/09/2005, at 9:14 AM, Nick Gleitzman wrote: > > >> On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote: >> >> >> >>> by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college >>> in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of >>> DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to >>> close , 'cause they don't need to be closed. >>> >>> >> >> Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can, >> do. Those that can't, teach.' >> >> Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that >> tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed >> with what's happening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given >> the administrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run >> education - but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch, >> you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you >> can. Maybe your local MP? It may take years for change to come >> about, and probably won't help you, but it may help the students >> down the line... >> >> > > And in the meantime, you've got us to help you learn to do it right! > *grin* > > Seriously, though, when I did my uni course we had a subject on > usability and accessibility and it touched briefly (very briefly) on > CSS. Pity none of the tutors really understood it. *sigh* I ended up > taking one of the tutes myself, because I was the only one in the > class who knew what the lecturer was getting at. > > Might have considered getting into teaching myself, except that it > would mean I had to deal with students... > > > Cheers, > > Seona. > ** > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help > ** > ** > The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ > > See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > for some hints on posting to the list & getting help > ** > > John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
Then again, I used to teach at Northern Sydney IT - they aren't all lucky enough to get you Lisa :-) john On 08/09/2005, at 9:48 AM, Herrod, Lisa wrote: There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute (ultimo TAFE) who understand and teach web site design and development with a real focus on web standards. Their knowledge is extremely current and while the old addage of 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' is sometimes true, it isn't always. and defineitely not in this case. Lisa -Original Message- From: Seona Bellamy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:36 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign On 08/09/2005, at 9:14 AM, Nick Gleitzman wrote: On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote: by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to close , 'cause they don't need to be closed. Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed with what's happening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given the administrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run education - but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch, you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you can. Maybe your local MP? It may take years for change to come about, and probably won't help you, but it may help the students down the line... And in the meantime, you've got us to help you learn to do it right! *grin* Seriously, though, when I did my uni course we had a subject on usability and accessibility and it touched briefly (very briefly) on CSS. Pity none of the tutors really understood it. *sigh* I ended up taking one of the tutes myself, because I was the only one in the class who knew what the lecturer was getting at. Might have considered getting into teaching myself, except that it would mean I had to deal with students... Cheers, Seona. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
That could also be done with a coule divs... I think. Not that I would want to have a page background like that. Ugh. On 9/7/05, Kenny Graham < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:> http://cs130.cs.cornell.edu/ HAS a table layout. For no reason. No reason? It makes it much easier to meet the absolutely necessary design requirement of... arbitrarily splitting the background color in half?
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
There are actually a few excellent teachers at Sydney Institute (ultimo TAFE) who understand and teach web site design and development with a real focus on web standards. Their knowledge is extremely current and while the old addage of > 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' is sometimes true, it isn't always. and defineitely not in this case. Lisa -Original Message- From: Seona Bellamy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:36 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign On 08/09/2005, at 9:14 AM, Nick Gleitzman wrote: > On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote: > > >> by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college >> in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of >> DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to >> close , 'cause they don't need to be closed. >> > > Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can, > do. Those that can't, teach.' > > Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that > tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed > with what's happening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given > the administrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run > education - but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch, > you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you > can. Maybe your local MP? It may take years for change to come > about, and probably won't help you, but it may help the students > down the line... > And in the meantime, you've got us to help you learn to do it right! *grin* Seriously, though, when I did my uni course we had a subject on usability and accessibility and it touched briefly (very briefly) on CSS. Pity none of the tutors really understood it. *sigh* I ended up taking one of the tutes myself, because I was the only one in the class who knew what the lecturer was getting at. Might have considered getting into teaching myself, except that it would mean I had to deal with students... Cheers, Seona. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign
On 8 Sep 2005, at 9:31 AM, Paul Bennett wrote: be glad you're learning about web standards now - it'll make getting a good job a lot easier. The capability of my tutors wasn't much better than yours. Even Zeldman has lamented lately (sorry - googled and couldn't find the entry) that Universities can teach molecular physics but apparently are unable to teach standards-compliant web design. ...which just goes to prove the value of the Web itself as a community - and of lists like this. To paraphrase that old saw again: 'Those that can, do - and share. Those that can't, just get in the way.' BTW, just out of interest, I searched JZ's site for 'physics' with his internal search (Atomz?) and got only 3 references - to 'fiasco'. Kinda apt, though... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
> http://cs130.cs.cornell.edu/ HAS a table layout. For no reason. No reason? It makes it much easier to meet the absolutely necessary design requirement of... arbitrarily splitting the background color in half?
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
On 08/09/2005, at 9:14 AM, Nick Gleitzman wrote: On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote: by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to close , 'cause they don't need to be closed. Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed with what's happening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given the administrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run education - but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch, you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you can. Maybe your local MP? It may take years for change to come about, and probably won't help you, but it may help the students down the line... And in the meantime, you've got us to help you learn to do it right! *grin* Seriously, though, when I did my uni course we had a subject on usability and accessibility and it touched briefly (very briefly) on CSS. Pity none of the tutors really understood it. *sigh* I ended up taking one of the tutes myself, because I was the only one in the class who knew what the lecturer was getting at. Might have considered getting into teaching myself, except that it would mean I had to deal with students... Cheers, Seona. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Browser tolerance - was Barclays standards redesign
I totally agree, but let me make a joke: If browsers suddenly stopped parsing bad markup, wouldn't we be in big business? Imagine all the desperate clients! :DOn 9/7/05, Mike Brown < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Kenny Graham wrote:> > Exactly. I was actually thinking the other day, browsers > > should be more like compilers... they should refuse to> > parse incorrect code. Then the enforcement would be> > on the output end, too.>> It would be nice, but would only work if -every- browser did it. > Otherwise the general opinion would be "This new 'Standards Compliant'> browser is broken! Luckilly IE still works."Would it be so nice? Suddenly virtually all legacy web content wouldn't be parsed. The web would have disappeared :)I really believe one of the key factors in the growth of the web, andthe unparrelled transformation it's had on the world in the past decade,has been the fact that browsers are incredibily tolerant of HTML. That and HTML being a markup language, not a programming language. It's easyto learn! Albeit harder to learn to do well.These two things have allowed millions of people to create websites.Without this uptake we would not have the web we do now - for good or bad. I'm not defending sloppy markup, but browser tolerance of such hasallowed us to get to where we are now.Mike**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
Have filed a formal complaint against the instructor (who happens to run 10 hours of the 20 hours of classes we have each week.) I am no longer attending his classes and may not get my Diploma. Still, gives me more time to study at home (without the distraction of the fit young Physical Education students!) -Original Message- From: Nick Gleitzman [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 9:14 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote: > by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college in > Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of DOCTYPE, > refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to close , 'cause > they don't need to be closed. Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed with what's happening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given the administrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run education - but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch, you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you can. Maybe your local MP? It may take years for change to come about, and probably won't help you, but it may help the students down the line... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign
be glad you're learning about web standards now - it'll make getting a good job a lot easier. The capability of my tutors wasn't much better than yours. Even Zeldman has lamented lately (sorry - googled and couldn't find the entry) that Universities can teach molecular physics but apparently are unable to teach standards-compliant web design. *sigh* ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
Ah ha ha yes! Exactly my experience with my *first* web design course ever... it's called Intro to Web Design & Programming. I'm only in the class because I have nothing else to take, and it's the only web design class being offered in the fall... and because I want to be a teaching assistant for the class next year. I've already realized I'm way ahead of the course, but anyway, so the professors (there's 2) require that all documents validate as xhtml 1.0 strict. The book talks about XHTML and using validation. But the book talks about using tables for layout, because it's *easier* than divs! And the course website, which was designed by a graduate student, http://cs130.cs.cornell.edu/ HAS a table layout. For no reason. Plus, most of the teaching assistants are art students or people who "just like web design," and don't actually know much about using computers. Basically, there's a lot of fumbling and such. It's very painful, so much so that I don't attend lecture, so that I don't have to intervene in situations like this: Innocent student: "Is <*strong> a valid XHTML 1.0 tag?" Professor or Teaching Assistant, take your pick: "I don't think so. Actually, I'm not sure. I'll have to go check and e-mail you." ARGH!On 9/7/05, Nick Gleitzman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote:> by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college in> Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of DOCTYPE,> refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to close , 'cause > they don't need to be closed.Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can, do.Those that can't, teach.'Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed with what'shappening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given theadministrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run education -but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch, you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you can. Maybe yourlocal MP? It may take years for change to come about, and probablywon't help you, but it may help the students down the line...N ___Omnivision. Websight.http://www.omnivision.com.au/**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Browser tolerance - was Barclays standards redesign
Kenny Graham wrote: > Exactly. I was actually thinking the other day, browsers > should be more like compilers... they should refuse to > parse incorrect code. Then the enforcement would be > on the output end, too. It would be nice, but would only work if -every- browser did it. Otherwise the general opinion would be "This new 'Standards Compliant' browser is broken! Luckilly IE still works." Would it be so nice? Suddenly virtually all legacy web content wouldn't be parsed. The web would have disappeared :) I really believe one of the key factors in the growth of the web, and the unparrelled transformation it's had on the world in the past decade, has been the fact that browsers are incredibily tolerant of HTML. That and HTML being a markup language, not a programming language. It's easy to learn! Albeit harder to learn to do well. These two things have allowed millions of people to create websites. Without this uptake we would not have the web we do now - for good or bad. I'm not defending sloppy markup, but browser tolerance of such has allowed us to get to where we are now. Mike ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign
> by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE > college in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has > never heard of DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase > and also refuses to close , 'cause they don't need to be > closed. That instructor has no business teaching web dev, as good instructors continue their education after finding a job, and that one seems to have stopped learning new things 6 years ago. Sorry. Venting. Annoying client. *sigh*
RE: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign
If you serve your XHTML pages as XML documents then your browser will die on badly formed structure. - A From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Christian Montoya Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 10:44 a.m. To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign Standards compliance needs to be built into RFP's from the get-go and then enforced by companies who pay the web-dev's. Exactly. I was actually thinking the other day, browsers should be more like compilers... they should refuse to parse incorrect code. Then the enforcement would be on the output end, too. An example of bad code: http://web1temp.cheme.cornell.edu/courses/cheme112/ Whoever made that site is basically having their bad code justified by browsers that actually display it, even though it has no doctype, no html tag, no head tag, unclosed p tags... etc etc etc. If that person was doing the same thing in Java or C++, the compiler would spit out a bunch of wierd messages and he/she would realize he/she doesn't know what he/she's doing. If browsers didn't parse bad code, that would probably stop a lot of xangas and myspaces from working... I can dream, can't I? No html tag! I can't get over that one!
Re: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign
> Exactly. I was actually thinking the other day, browsers > should be more like compilers... they should refuse to > parse incorrect code. Then the enforcement would be > on the output end, too. It would be nice, but would only work if -every- browser did it. Otherwise the general opinion would be "This new 'Standards Compliant' browser is broken! Luckilly IE still works." If you have XHTML, and serve it as application/xml. then in modern browsers you'll get your wish :-) Of course, you'll have problems with IE as well, regardless of whether it is valid or not. :-/ john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
The only example of purely efficient structural markup I've seen inthe past few years is this: http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/articles/css/div_less/ You want to explain this one? <*ul><*li><*p>This page is laid out using heading, paragraph, and list tags. Neither SPANs nor DIVs have been used.p> <*/li><*/ul> Now, that's a nice page, other than that silliness with the one item list, it's a great example of div-orexia and span-defficiency. But what's no joke, is that XHTML 2.0 won't have the IMG tag, and it will actually promote using lots of <*section> and <*line>. You can read more here: http://www-128.ibm.com/developerworks/library/wa-xhtml/
[WSG] Educate the educators (was) Barclays standards redesign
On 8 Sep 2005, at 8:59 AM, Craig Rippon wrote: by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to close , 'cause they don't need to be closed. Which just goes to prove the (cynical) old saw: 'Those that can, do. Those that can't, teach.' Seriously, this is a good example of how important it is that tertiary education the world over keeps its curriculum up to speed with what's happening in the real world. Difficult, I know, given the administrative behemoths that are responsible for govt-run education - but as a student, if your course is not up to scratch, you should complain - in writing - to the highest power that you can. Maybe your local MP? It may take years for change to come about, and probably won't help you, but it may help the students down the line... N ___ Omnivision. Websight. http://www.omnivision.com.au/ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign
> Exactly. I was actually thinking the other day, browsers > should be more like compilers... they should refuse to > parse incorrect code. Then the enforcement would be > on the output end, too. It would be nice, but would only work if -every- browser did it. Otherwise the general opinion would be "This new 'Standards Compliant' browser is broken! Luckilly IE still works."
RE: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign
by-the-by: I am a web development student at Yeronga TAFE college in Brisbane, Australia. One of my instructors has never heard of DOCTYPE, refuses to put tags in lowercase and also refuses to close , 'cause they don't need to be closed. From: Christian Montoya [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, 8 September 2005 8:44 AMTo: wsg@webstandardsgroup.orgSubject: Re: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign Standards compliance needs to be built into RFP's from the get-go and then enforced by companies who pay the web-dev's. Exactly. I was actually thinking the other day, browsers should be more like compilers... they should refuse to parse incorrect code. Then the enforcement would be on the output end, too. An example of bad code: http://web1temp.cheme.cornell.edu/courses/cheme112/Whoever made that site is basically having their bad code justified by browsers that actually display it, even though it has no doctype, no html tag, no head tag, unclosed p tags... etc etc etc. If that person was doing the same thing in Java or C++, the compiler would spit out a bunch of wierd messages and he/she would realize he/she doesn't know what he/she's doing. If browsers didn't parse bad code, that would probably stop a lot of xangas and myspaces from working... I can dream, can't I?No html tag! I can't get over that one!
Re: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign
Standards compliance needs to be built into RFP's from the get-go and then enforced by companies who pay the web-dev's. Exactly. I was actually thinking the other day, browsers should be more like compilers... they should refuse to parse incorrect code. Then the enforcement would be on the output end, too. An example of bad code: http://web1temp.cheme.cornell.edu/courses/cheme112/ Whoever made that site is basically having their bad code justified by browsers that actually display it, even though it has no doctype, no html tag, no head tag, unclosed p tags... etc etc etc. If that person was doing the same thing in Java or C++, the compiler would spit out a bunch of wierd messages and he/she would realize he/she doesn't know what he/she's doing. If browsers didn't parse bad code, that would probably stop a lot of xangas and myspaces from working... I can dream, can't I? No html tag! I can't get over that one!
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon - THREAD CLOSED
THREAD CLOSED The reason for the closure of this thread is that while it had been interesting and informative, it has definitely moved away from open discussion into strongly held views and lines of demarcation. Please do not reply to this thread or comment on the thread closure to the list. If you have a problem with the closing of this thread, please email [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thanks Russ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables - a challenge!
It's not our fault we have to hack IE.
This guy claims he solved the problem. The example used 3 divs, the
clean version is at the bottom of the page. Worked in IE for me :D
http://www.jakpsatweb.cz/css/css-vertical-center-solution.htmlOn 9/7/05, designer
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Hello all,I've been holding back with this, as I've said it before and I can hearthe yawns from some of the longer suffering members . . .OK, I don't use tables, except for tabular data. I've been doing this
standards stuff for for just one year and there is only one place whereI use a table for layout, and that is to put something (div, orwhatever) slap bang in the middle of the screen, both vertically andhorizontally. There are many ways to do this, but none of them (that I
know) are as simple or as reliable as this method using a single-cell table:CSS:body, html {height : 100%;}#layoutgrid{height : 100%;width : 100%;}#layoutgrid td {
vertical-align : middle;text-align : center;}Then, in the body: This is in the middle!
Other methods use _javascript_, others use negative margins. The negativemargins way is neat, but it suffers from the fact that, if the viewportis smaller than the thing you are centering [eg, content height is
500px and you have a screen that is only 640 by 480] you cannot see thetop of the content, and (obviously) you can't scroll there!So, the challenge: do what I've done above with no table, AND make itwork in IE. It's easy if you forget IE (see 1), but since IE is still
the primary browser in use that isn't a solution.[1. see Steve Clay:http://mrclay.org/web_design/vertical_centering_by_the_specs.html
]Anyone?Bob McClellandwww.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk**The discussion list for
http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
Stephen, I like this list in that people are so willing to debate the issues, as that is how we learn and understand what is best, but I think we should not blindly use CSS. We must use it wisely and examine how we are using it so we don't make new mistakes. using CSS is not a blind or unreasoned choice. It is a technology expressly designed for this purpose. That simply isn't true of using tables. I guess what keeps me coming back back to this pointless and frustrating discussion is certainly not for my sake. I could care less that people choose to continue using tables for layout. But when people advocate it as a sensible, reasonable alternative to CSS in any circumstance, then I feel it my weary duty for the sake of people who might be mislead by this to take up the cudgels. Statements like "its horses for courses" (in terms of whether to use tables for layout or CS for layout), perpetuate the erroneous idea that there is some equivalence between the two techniques. There is not. To be clear, one is an entirely outmoded hack that was necessary to create certain types of layout coming up on a decade ago. It has persisted because as much as anything, people continue to build these kinds of layouts, and because developers are in many ways sensibly reluctant to abandon the skills they have acquired. On the other hand, CSS is an entire technology, developed over more than a decade, by very smart sensible people, with much peer review and collaboration, to solve precisely problems of layout in a much more sophisticated, systematic and general way, also taking into account issues of accessibility as fundamental aspects of the technology. to afford the two equal footing when it comes to choosing a valid layout technology is literally absurd. john John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Problems with print style and general site check
Hi David, thanks for the feedback. I have to agree that the text, particularly on the home page, lacks contrast. I will look to make it a little darker. As for the emphasis being on the designer rather than the painter, I don't feel this was the case. The painter was very involved during the design process and, working in the field of visual communication, very particular about the type of site she wanted. I actually started out designing a far more standard layout that was rejected. If you mean that the site fails to communicate and that there are other issues involved I would be really interested to know what they are so I can address them. Thanks again for taking the time (no ideas on the print style?) Cheers James FWIW: The emphasis seems to be on the designer rather than the painter for whom the site has been designed? I find the text far too light and unreadable. Best, David Laakso ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
>I'd say that people who rely heavily on tables are the ones who obviously do >not care >> >about standards. Or they just DON'T KNOW. I work in an organisation where our only other coder hasn't been formally trained, was thrown into intranet work out of necessity and has learnt 'web stuff' by trial and error. Her technical savvy is pretty good but limited and she is quite terrified by change. Getting her to throw away her precious tables for divs is an ongoing challenge, but it's not a case of her 'not caring'. We need to take great care when evangelising standards that it doesn't become a guilt-trip or pseudo-religious debate. Evangelise the benefits, and be patient - not everyone has been exposed to the paradigm-shift that is standards compliant design. Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] OL vs DL
> I wouldn't lose any sleep over which is > the most semantic way, as it can get fairly academic... But that's why I love this list. Even the smallest things get academic very quickly here. To get to the semantic root of it, ask yourself "Does each subitem function as a definition of its parent?" If so, it's a list of definitions (dl): Fidelity ... ... Politeness ... If not, and the subitems are their own concepts, but are all related to the parent, use nested lists. In my opinion, it looks like the subitems are definitions of their parents. But then again, I don't know a thing about Bushido.
RE: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
>>*unless the desired effect...* >Why fighting the medium? >If that *desire effect* is purely visual, then I think there is a problem... Yep, they're called 'Clients' :) Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign
It doesn't actually validate. (watch wrap) http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.barclays.co.uk%2Fpremier%2F&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&verbose=1 http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.barclays.co.uk%2F&charset=%28detect+automatically%29&doctype=Inline&verbose=1 You've got to blame the web development company for this one. We had a similar issue (before I started here) where the organisation I work for demanded s 'standards compliant site redesign'. Unfortunately no one in the team was code savvy enough to police it and in the end we got an old school broken tables in tables in tables layout with a 40Kb stylesheet to semi-control layout. The developers answer to making it 'standards compliant' was to add a DOCTYPE, which none of the code actually fits. Now it's part of my job to try and clean up some of their mess and make it validate. Standards compliance needs to be built into RFP's from the get-go and then enforced by companies who pay the web-dev's. You have been warned ;) Paul ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] td != div
> Good topic. I'm going to re-think the whole approach on this project. My work here is done. Now I can go get some Krystals (eg. Whitecastles + Mustard - Holes in meat) and say to myself "I might not know what I'm eating, but at least my pet peeve is silenced for the moment."
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
> These debates always sink into a tables versus CSS mentality and that > is really sad. The open-minded, pragmatic approach is simply to allow > that in some cases, perhaps very rare cases, a simple layout table > might be the better solution. I guess pragmatism is simply > incompatible with certain mindsets in this business :-) I agree, if "perhaps" is replaced with "only in extremely". ;) I think that every time there is a technological transition, there need to be extremists. We (the people arguing against tables) may be taking it a bit far, but somone has to fill that role to balance out the "i wish nothing would ever change" crowd. It's kind of like the SpreadFirefox team. Firefox is far from being a perfect browser, but there is still a need for people claiming it's flawless to keep the adoption rate up. Because if a relatively standards compliant browser gets enough popularity, it will force the market to adapt to new standards (see IE7's early release). Without us CSS evangalists, sites like Wired would still be using HTML 3.2 and saying "what's the point? it works fine as is." However, I guess we also need people like Bert to try to drag us out of our obsessive compulsive, well-formed bubbles every once in a while for some fresh air.
Re: [WSG] Linearization
Terrence Wood wrote: Patrick H. Lauke said: For all intents and purposes, linearisation = source order. When applied to tables the thing to watch for is how the association between discrete bits of columnar information is not maintained: so a table like this: C1R1C2R1 C1R2C2R2 becomes: C1R1 C2R1 C1R2 C2R2 Which *is* the source order, but yes worth clarifying. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
> Perhaps this is the crux of the matter. Most things can be achieved with > CSS, especially if you use various hacks and scripts etc. However, at what > point do we say, we are better doing this layout in tables rather than > using > complex CSS with various hacks? In terms of future maintenance, the CSS > solution will be more difficult due to the complexity of the hacks and > scripts. > Sure, there may be issues maintaining the CSS, but at least the integrity of the content is preserved. It is painful removing presentational tables while preserving data tables, where as it is trivial to replace a CSS file. kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Linearization
Patrick H. Lauke said: > Stevio wrote: >> I am interesting in your thoughts on linearization. What it means and >> how you apply it? > > For all intents and purposes, linearisation = source order. When applied to tables the thing to watch for is how the association between discrete bits of columnar information is not maintained: so a table like this: C1R1C2R1 C1R2C2R2 becomes: C1R1 C2R1 C1R2 C2R2 kind regards Terrence Wood. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Tables - a challenge!
Hello all,
I've been holding back with this, as I've said it before and I can hear
the yawns from some of the longer suffering members . . .
OK, I don't use tables, except for tabular data. I've been doing this
standards stuff for for just one year and there is only one place where
I use a table for layout, and that is to put something (div, or
whatever) slap bang in the middle of the screen, both vertically and
horizontally. There are many ways to do this, but none of them (that I
know) are as simple or as reliable as this method using a single-cell table:
CSS:
body, html {
height : 100%;
}
#layoutgrid{
height : 100%;
width : 100%;
}
#layoutgrid td {
vertical-align : middle;
text-align : center;
}
Then, in the body:
This is in the middle!
Other methods use javascript, others use negative margins. The negative
margins way is neat, but it suffers from the fact that, if the viewport
is smaller than the thing you are centering [eg, content height is
500px and you have a screen that is only 640 by 480] you cannot see the
top of the content, and (obviously) you can't scroll there!
So, the challenge: do what I've done above with no table, AND make it
work in IE. It's easy if you forget IE (see 1), but since IE is still
the primary browser in use that isn't a solution.
[1. see Steve Clay:
http://mrclay.org/web_design/vertical_centering_by_the_specs.html ]
Anyone?
Bob McClelland
www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk
**
The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/
See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm
for some hints on posting to the list & getting help
**
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
From: "Thierry Koblentz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I don't agree. As Kenny said, the presentational hacks are part of the presentational layer. It is easier to detach a Styles Sheet from a document than to remove its table markup. These debates always sink into a tables versus CSS mentality and that is really sad. The open-minded, pragmatic approach is simply to allow that in some cases, perhaps very rare cases, a simple layout table might be the better solution. I guess pragmatism is simply incompatible with certain mindsets in this business :-) FWIW, the post you replied to was not discussing layout, but maintenance... Thanks, Thierry - but I knew what I was responding to. -- Al ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] divitis - chronic vs. mild stages
Drake, Ted C. wrote: Now, the goal of a medium to advanced CSS-based programmer is to find the elegant balance of essential divs, spans, ids and classes. Consider it a challenge. Indeedy. I cringe, however, when I see DIVs where they're not necessary. For example things like ... where a simple ... will do. That's the kind of stuff that should be avoided: if you already have a perfectly good block level element, don't wrap it in a generic div unless you have a very good reason for it. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Linearization
Stevio wrote: I am interesting in your thoughts on linearization. What it means and how you apply it? For all intents and purposes, linearisation = source order. If you have something like a screenreader, it will read things in the order in which they appear in the source code. If you a) use a table or b) use CSS positioning for layout, it's important to check that things don't just look right, but that they make sense in source order. The classic table based example can be found at http://www.webaim.org/techniques/forms/2 (in the context of forms, but the same principle applies to content laid out in tables). Basically, make sure that your content makes sense a) when linearised (you can check for this, for instance, in Firefox with the Web Developer Toolbar under Miscellaneous > Linearize Tables) or b) when styles are off. -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Images as accessible form buttons
Andreas Boehmer [Addictive Media] wrote: I then thought I should use , but realised that this doesn't work in all browsers. IE, for example, has got the nasty habbit of submitting name.x=0&name.y=0 when these kind of buttons are clicked, which can make it really difficult if you have got multiple buttons in one form and you wish to detect which of them was clicked. Maybe I'm missing something, but: why not test for the presence of name.x or name.y at the receiving end then, rather than name? And, if you have multiple buttons, shouldn't it be easy enough to give them different names and test for name1.x or name2.x ? -- Patrick H. Lauke __ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign
My guess is that more than one person worked on the redesign, but not everyone knew what they were doing. That might be where the mistakes come in. Still, they are really amateur mistakes. Seems unfair that I can't get anyone to pay me to do clean, standards based design, but these clowns cashed in on bed and breakfast tags. On 9/7/05, David Laakso <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Chris Taylor wrote:>Not sure if this has been flagged up anywhere else, but I noticed the >barclays website has had a CSS makeover: http://www.barclays.co.uk/.>They also have some (brief) information about their design here:> http://www.barclays.co.uk/accessibility/web_design.htm>Chris Taylor>>Deleting the font-sizes throughout the style sheet makes it readable andbreaks it.Regards,David Laakso --David Laaksohttp://www.dlaakso.com**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help**
Re: [WSG] Problems with print style and general site check
You could make the page background one pixel wide, and the column background 1 pixel high... that should cut off a few kb's. - Christian
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
Al Sparber wrote: >> I don't agree. As Kenny said, the presentational hacks are part of >> the >> presentational layer. >> It is easier to detach a Styles Sheet from a document than to remove >> its >> table markup. > > These debates always sink into a tables versus CSS mentality and that > is really sad. The open-minded, pragmatic approach is simply to allow > that in some cases, perhaps very rare cases, a simple layout table > might be the better solution. I guess pragmatism is simply > incompatible with certain mindsets in this business :-) FWIW, the post you replied to was not discussing layout, but maintenance... Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
From: "Thierry Koblentz" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Stevio wrote: However, at what point do we say, we are better doing this layout in tables rather than using complex CSS with various hacks? In terms of future maintenance, the CSS solution will be more difficult due to the complexity of the hacks and scripts. I don't agree. As Kenny said, the presentational hacks are part of the presentational layer. It is easier to detach a Styles Sheet from a document than to remove its table markup. These debates always sink into a tables versus CSS mentality and that is really sad. The open-minded, pragmatic approach is simply to allow that in some cases, perhaps very rare cases, a simple layout table might be the better solution. I guess pragmatism is simply incompatible with certain mindsets in this business :-) Oh well. Back to more productive endeavors! Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com "Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday". ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] td != div
Geoff Pack wrote: Some reasons for div-itis: 1. Columns. "table cell => div" is wrong, but usually "columns => divs" is correct. now we are really getting into semantics. i began designing via wysiwyg and tables. when i made the change to html/css i was having problems with positioning and other browser quirks. i didn't really understand positioning with css. i knew i didn't want to go back to tables and i knew i could figure this thing out, but how do you get someone who is coming from a tables environment to understand how to use css for positioning? you need to relate to them in terms they understand and teach them the cross-over names for them. for me, div=cell and viewport=table. i reasoned that with css i could put that "cell=box" anywhere on the page i wanted using css rules and i was not constrained by a bunch of other connected cells. this reasoning helped much to understand in terms from where i was coming to get to where i wanted to be. to say what you did above is correct for some one who understands the language of css, but does a disservice if you want to convert someone from tables to html/css. it was easier for me to grasp css when i understood the freedom i had over tables by using boxes and positioning them where i wanted with this epiphany. then i found out through the use of the float property that i could take blocks of content and put them together like a jigsaw puzzle to create my design. my feeling is that if comparison language was used, many would see the benefits of html/css over tables and would be more likely to make the change, because they would understand quicker what is being done and how to do it. cheers, dwain -- dwain alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com The Savior replied; "There is no such thing as sin;..." 'The Gospel of Mary of Magdala' ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
Stevio wrote: > However, at what point do we say, we are better doing this layout in > tables rather than using complex CSS with various hacks? In terms of > future maintenance, the CSS solution will be more difficult due to > the complexity of the hacks and scripts. I don't agree. As Kenny said, the presentational hacks are part of the presentational layer. It is easier to detach a Styles Sheet from a document than to remove its table markup. Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Evaluating Web Sites for Accessibility with Firefox
Forgive me if I throw out another wild pitch. If I want to simulate a screen reader visually, I use the fangs extension to firefox. This translates the page into what a screenreader would read. Example output of Zeldman.com Page has seven headings and seventy-one links Jeffrey Zeldman Presents The Daily Report dash Mozilla Firefox Heading level one Link Zeldman colon Web design news List of five items bullet Link daily report bullet Link designing with web standards bullet Link my glamorous life bullet Link classics bullet Link about List end Heading level three Link six September two thousand five one pm edt Heading level two An Event Apart plus A List Apart Link An Event Apart launches , opening in Philadelphia. Link A List Apart Link Issue No. two hundred two highlights the useful and clever. Heading level three Link An Event Apart Join Eric Meyer, me, and special guests for a concentrated, one dash day learning session in selected cities, beginning with Philadelphia, PA. Is this what you were looking for? Excuse me as I duck behind the umpire. Ted -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of dwain alford Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 7:10 PM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Evaluating Web Sites for Accessibility with Firefox Donna Jones wrote: > Yes, and I was the one that asked for the link to it. After I got there > found out to get it to "read" the page one has to hover w/ a mouse - so > totally unlike a screen reader. I think hovering with a mouse could be > helpful to some people but it doesn't give one an idea of how the page > is read by a screen reader. i didn't download/install it. when i initially posted the list i said that it gives you a sense of what a screen reader reads the page. it is my understanding that a screen reader will also read title attributes on links and alt attributes on images. although you have to hover the mouse and it is not as sophisticated as a screen reader, there are some other features for accessibility trials. i haven't played with it much, but i will when i get some free time. cheers, dwain -- dwain alford [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alforddesigngroup.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] divitis - chronic vs. mild stages
I think you go through stages of CSS/XHTML maturity as you learn how to move away from tables to table-less design. Our first instinct is to use divs the same way we used tables. It feels safe to load up the page with structural divs. That's ok, especially if it is what helps you get from x to y. However, you will get to the point where you realize the first CSS based sites you built had too many divs and you start looking for ways to place the styles on the unordered list or paragraph instead of wrapping those elements in a div. I still see a valid reason to have divitis. If I am building a site that has to be flexible, modified by a large group of people AND uses server-side includes, I would rather make those include files self-contained units. Sure, I could remove the container div on many of the includes, but I prefer to know that if an include is added to a page, the elements within it are not going to inherit the styles of the page's container. Does that make sense? Now, the goal of a medium to advanced CSS-based programmer is to find the elegant balance of essential divs, spans, ids and classes. Consider it a challenge. I sometimes cringe when I see divitis. I sometimes chuckle. I even at times yell, "hey Brian check out this site's chronic divitosis!" But let's face it, this is an evolutionary process and those of us that have been doing it for a while need to remember what it was like on the first pass. Disclaimer: don't forget the horrible, horrible, horrible, horrible divitis and absolute-positionitis generated by some of the Office software and CMS systems. I once looked at a form that had hundreds of inputs and labels in individually positioned divs. That wasn't the programmer's fault. We just didn't have time yet to build a new generator from scratch. Ted www.tdrake.net P.S. Someone in the office just mentioned using the marquee tag. I need to sound the emergency siren and get to work. Some reasons for div-itis: 1. Columns. "table cell => div" is wrong, but usually "columns => divs" is correct. 2. Boxes. The designer wants to put a box around a group of items. There might be a heading, a list or two and a paragraph, with border and a background. You could do this without a div (for example, by setting side borders on all the items, and a top and bottom borders on the first and last items respectively), but it's easier to just wrap it in a div and give it an id and a single style. And since box = section = div, it's the correct thing to do anyway. 3. Multiple backgrounds. 4. Expandability. Sometimes you know you have only one item in a box or a column, and you know you don't need a wrapper div. But you can bet that in a couple of months the designer/editor/cleaner will want to add a more items. So you build the structure to grow. 5. Box model work-arounds. You want to give an item a width, some padding and a border. You could use some CSS hacks, or you could just set the width on a wrapper div, and the margin/border/padding on the item itself. e.g. with columns, I set the width on the column div, then set the margins/borders/padding on the contents. 6. Laziness and deadlines. Sometimes it takes a lot of effort to make things simple. Not always worth it. cheers -- Geoff Pack Developer ABC New Media ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
- Original Message - From: "Bert Doorn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, September 07, 2005 9:09 AM Keep reading... http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20050630/#layouttables-avoid "It is *recommended* that authors not use the |table| element for layout purposes *unless the desired effect absolutely cannot be achieved using CSS*." Perhaps this is the crux of the matter. Most things can be achieved with CSS, especially if you use various hacks and scripts etc. However, at what point do we say, we are better doing this layout in tables rather than using complex CSS with various hacks? In terms of future maintenance, the CSS solution will be more difficult due to the complexity of the hacks and scripts. I like this list in that people are so willing to debate the issues, as that is how we learn and understand what is best, but I think we should not blindly use CSS. We must use it wisely and examine how we are using it so we don't make new mistakes. Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.19/92 - Release Date: 07/09/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] Linearization
I am interesting in your thoughts on linearization. What it means and how you apply it? Thanks, Stephen -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.10.19/92 - Release Date: 07/09/2005 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Problems with print style and general site check
James Gollan wrote: The site address is www.abbychambers.com and the style sheet is: www.abbychambers.com/themes/greenstripe/print.css Also, if you are looking at the site, any general issues would be good to know about. FWIW: The emphasis seems to be on the designer rather than the painter for whom the site has been designed? I find the text far too light and unreadable. Cheers James Best, David Laakso -- David Laakso http://www.dlaakso.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] OL vs DL
> Chris Kennon > Looking over the information at the following url: > (http://www.bridgewater.edu/~dhuffman/soc306/f02grp4/Martial%20Arts/ > bushido__the_honor_code.htm) > > I'm confused if the quest for cleaner mark-up would be better > pursued by an OL or DL? Ah, Joe Clark had a cracker at last week's workshop in London: "My other T-Shirt is a definition list" Anyway, do Fidelity, Politeness, etc need to be in that specific order? If so, an ordered list of ordered lists seems appropriate Fidelity Respect... Steadiness Politeness ... ... You could take it to an extreme Fidelity Respect... ... Or, if the various "1. Respect; 2. Steadiness" etc don't need to be numbered and are not in a specific order, you could use: Fidelity Respect Steadiness ... And if the whole points don't need to be in a specific order, the entire thing can just be a definition list full stop Fidelity ... ... Politeness ... ... But that's the level where I'd ask: who cares? Does it have any advantage over a simple set of nested lists? Choose something practical that works well and stick with it. I wouldn't lose any sleep over which is the most semantic way, as it can get fairly academic... IMHO of course, Patrick __ Patrick H. Lauke Webmaster / University of Salford http://www.salford.ac.uk __ Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ __ ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] td != div
Bert Doorn wrote: I'd even drop id="header" and just style the h1 element. Unless you use more than one h1 per page... Good point, Bert. Time to put this mark-up on a diet. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] td != div
G'day By what you're saying, I could simply have my outer wrapper for the margins/bg stuff, and then the id'ed to replicate the whole header, and the ul id'ed to the nav list. This makes sense. Image replaced title here ...etc... I'd even drop id="header" and just style the h1 element. Unless you use more than one h1 per page... Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] td != div
For instance, they'll put a inside a , just so that they can style the , instead of just giving the itself an id. I never really noticed this, but I tend to code this way too. Here's a small sample i've been playing with: Image replaced title here Home Products Services Contact Us By what you're saying, I could simply have my outer wrapper for the margins/bg stuff, and then the id'ed to replicate the whole header, and the ul id'ed to the nav list. This makes sense. Image replaced title here Home Products Services Contact Us is much less cluttered, and can still perform the same structure for display. Good topic. I'm going to re-think the whole approach on this project. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
Bert Doorn wrote: > G'day again :-) > Keep reading... > http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20050630/#layouttables-avoid > > "It is *recommended* that authors not use the |table| element for > layout > purposes *unless the desired effect absolutely cannot be achieved > using > CSS*." *unless the desired effect...* Why fighting the medium? If that *desire effect* is purely visual, then I think there is a problem... Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
John Allsopp wrote: > Paul, > >> Hang on now. There's nothing about the use of table markup per se >> that leads one to err more frequently. > > on the contrary, actual research suggests very strongly that there is. > > I have found a very high correlation between malformed documents and > the use of tables (with the errors occurring in direct association > with table code). I'd say that people who rely heavily on tables are the ones who obviously do not care about standards. So, IMHO, the correlation between malformed documents and table layouts only shows that these authors do not care for the quality of their markup. If I had to create and publish a complex table tomorrow, it would be *clean*; not because I know what I'm doing, but because I validate my pages... I think it'd be interesting to find out about the ratio table/table-less layouts among documents submitted to the Validator. Thierry | www.TJKDesign.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
[WSG] OL vs DL
Hi, Looking over the information at the following url: (http://www.bridgewater.edu/~dhuffman/soc306/f02grp4/Martial%20Arts/ bushido__the_honor_code.htm) I'm confused if the quest for cleaner mark-up would be better pursued by an OL or DL? C ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign
Chris Taylor wrote: Not sure if this has been flagged up anywhere else, but I noticed the barclays website has had a CSS makeover: http://www.barclays.co.uk/. They also have some (brief) information about their design here: http://www.barclays.co.uk/accessibility/web_design.htm Chris Taylor Deleting the font-sizes throughout the style sheet makes it readable and breaks it. Regards, David Laakso -- David Laakso http://www.dlaakso.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] site not looking good in Mozilla/FF!
thanks for the advice/suggestions. How do you add more than one background to a div? Or are you saying to combine the shadow and blue left column image in photoshop? Not quite understanding that, sorry. Also, what about the right shadow image? thanks, On 9/7/05, Geoff Pack <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Bruce,It's not looking too good in IE either - enlarge the text and the content wraps below the left nav. General advice: get it working on Firefox *first*, and then adjust to work on IE.Specific advice:1. Get rid of the wrapper divs - you only need the outer one.Put the background on the outer wrapper - you can include both shadows, the dark blue left column background, and the grey vertical line in the one background image. By putting all this in the wrapper background, it will extend to the whole length of the wrapper, and you won't need the Project 7 _javascript_ (which doesn't seem to be working for FF). 2. Give the header, the left column, and the footer a left-margin equal to the width of your left shadow.3. You don't need the content wrapper either. All you really need is: wrapper header [clear] left_col, top_bar [break] center_col, right_col, [clear] footer close wrapper4. top_bar: right-align the text instead of using all that left padding. hope this helps...cheers,--Geoff PackDeveloperABC New Media> -Original Message-> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Bruce Gilbert> Sent: Wednesday, 7 September 2005 2:05 PM> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org> Subject: [WSG] site not looking good in Mozilla/FF!>>> I tested the following site I am working on in Mozilla and it's not> looking too good at the moment. >> the URL is: http://www.semlogic.com/test/index.htm>> and the CSS is http://semlogic.com/test/CSS/Global.css >> some of the issues are the left menu isn't displaying properly, the> background image for the left column isn't displaying and the footer> background isn't extending to the content. Also, the grey bar at the > top isn't looking right.>> Everthing validates, and it actually looks as expected in IE, but I> know that these issues, are probably due to coding misjudgements, so> if they could be pointed out, I would be greatly appreciative! >> --> ::Bruce::> **> The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/>> See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm> for some hints on posting to the list & getting help> ** >>**The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmfor some hints on posting to the list & getting help** -- ::Bruce::
Re: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign
On 9/7/05, Kris Khaira <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > - what if we move these away from the top. Then what? What if you have a div with id "brand" which contains your company's name in an h1 with id "company_name"? What if a later reorganization of the site moves that h1 into a different container element? The "what if we move that over there" argument against naming page elements has always seemed somewhat strange to me; I understand perfectly well that in an idealized world, a given page's HTML structure would effectively be set in stone and only the CSS layout would ever change, and so the above would never be a problem. But... In the real world, redesigns often involve a change in structure as well as in layout. Maybe there's an expanded "about" blurb or mission statement that now needs to go on each page. Maybe there's another sidebar to add. Maybe there's a new type of content to account for. These are all things that come up in an overwhelming number of redesigns, and all of them cause shuffling of the underlying structure as well as of the visual CSS layout. > HTML elements should define the information, not presentation. Imagine a page with divs named "header", "sidebar" and "footer". Do those only convey information about the visual position of the elements? Or do they also convey some sense of the structure of the page? There's no clear line between "semantic" and "presentational" element labeling that I can see, so these things must be taken on a case-by-case basis; for example, "posAbsolute" is pretty clearly presentational, but "topTabs" is a bit fuzzier. The only hard and fast rule is that there are no hard and fast rules. -- "May the forces of evil become confused on the way to your house." -- George Carlin ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign
Exactly. Just because it validates doesn't mean it's semantic. topBarGrad topTabs topTabsValign - what if we move these away from the top. Then what? contentContainerPad - what if we remove the padding? posAbsolute - what if we change this to position:relative? HTML elements should define the information, not presentation. -- Kris Khaira http://kriskhaira.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign
>Barclays (http://www.barclays.co.uk/accessibility/web_design.htm) > >Designing the site for an 800x600 view so horizontal scrolling is not required, even for users >with small screens. > Interesting to see that in Firefox I have a horizontal scroll bar and my resolution is 1280x1024 px However, at least they've attempted a standards based site. Paul. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Barclays standards redesign
How abiut this then: > > > > UK > > > > > > href="http://www.barclays.co.uk/personal"; title="Personal Banking"> src="images_new/home/spacer.gif" class="tabButton" alt="" /> They might have gone the CSS-route but it's pretty obvious they are clueless when it come to writing semantic markup. The sheer amount of div's and classes on the titlepage alone is simply bewildering ;-) Cheers, Erwin heiser ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
Joshua, thank you for the link, I have been looking for this article for several years (having read it all those years ago) John If you still believe this semantic paradigm is something new, take a look at this article written in 1997. Yes, 1997. http://www.xml.com/pub/a/w3j/s1.people.html John Allsopp style master :: css editor :: http://westciv.com/style_master support forum :: http://support.westciv.com blog :: dog or higher :: http://blogs.westciv.com/dog_or_higher Web Essentials web development conference http://we05.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
From: "John Allsopp" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> I'm not evangelizing table-based layouts, although for real-world clients they sometimes are the right choice. I have yet to be convinced that clearly breaking the spirit and letter of a number of web standards, and all the attendant other costs associated with Table based designs is justified by anything other than a designers penchant for that technique. I'm not saying that table layout should be the first choice - only that it's sometimes the better choice. Given my read of the industry, anything else (from either side) is extremism or opportunism. What I am saying is that tables and valid code are not mututally exclusive. I learned a long time ago that the best way to advance an argument is to focus on the positive points of one's own view, rather than the negatives of your opponent's :-) It's easy to lead people to believe that table layout means nested tables, spacers, pervasive deprecated attributes, and on and on and on - while table-less layout is always squeaky clean and perfectly efficient. That's simply not true. The CSS inspirational sites are full of nested DIVs, SPANs, [enter name her] Image Replacement, Filter hacks, and my favorite- using non-breaking spaces to create curved boxes. They are also full of very elegant designs, some of which are efficient and well-coded, while others are not. The same, and nothing less, can be said of table layouts. Yes, this is a standards mailing list. It's not a platform for scaring people away from using a table when that is the only means to meet a project goal. The only example of purely efficient structural markup I've seen in the past few years is this: http://www.projectseven.com/tutorials/articles/css/div_less/ Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com "Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday". ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
From: "Bert Doorn" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> G'day again :-) Keep reading... http://www.w3.org/TR/2005/WD-WCAG20-HTML-TECHS-20050630/#layouttables-avoid "It is *recommended* that authors not use the |table| element for layout purposes *unless the desired effect absolutely cannot be achieved using CSS*." I rest my case. That was obviously written in a reluctant fit of pragmatism. But you are correct, that is the essence of the matter - but I'm afraid the rigid ones will not rest :-) Al Sparber PVII http://www.projectseven.com "Designing with CSS is sometimes like barreling down a crumbling mountain road at 90 miles per hour secure in the knowledge that repairs are scheduled for next Tuesday". ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
On Wed, 2005-09-07 at 19:01 +0800, Bert Doorn wrote: > > 3. How recently had they been updated? > > Why would that be in any way relevant? > > If a site is 3-5 years old, do you expect it to be written in the "new way"? I'm just going to pick on this point, because it's relatively open to attack and I've got enough to write about it alone, anyway. What exactly is the "new way"? Validation is nothing new. The specs have been around for quite some time --- certainly for longer than 5 years. This is 2005: if it were 1998, tag soup with table-based layout would be normal (hence vaguely "acceptable"), but it's not. And you recognise that. So, clearly, the "new way" is better. But what's the new way? Tables that validate? Internet Explorer 4 introduced some degree of CSS support that was somewhere near usable (though probably not for pure semantic layout), and that was back in 1997. We recognise semantics. We recognise that tags are created with meaning. We recognise hacks are just that: hacks. Web standards (recommendations) exist to encourage a semantic web, not to compromise to now-elapsed practises. Accusations of "divititis" and similar use of the class attribute are in some senses perfectly invalid: neither of these tags carries any implicit semantic weight. Simply from a parsing perspective, this makes them vastly superior. Tables are inherently resistant to linearisation (though appropriate markup can make this possible), and present challenges to the longevity of information thus marked, if it does not fit the purpose exactly. This is a regularly heard argument for the semantic web: it will be around, it will be able to be parsed, understood, in fifteen, twenty years time. More, even. Table-based layout is _irrational_ for visual modelling, _especially_ when we have at our disposal browsers that do a decent job of separation of content, presentation and behaviour. Even IE. We enjoy whining about lack of browser support for standards, but the reality is the biggest changes still to come aren't in the realm of presentation, but in that of behaviour, as developers realise the potential of the web for applications, and vendors enhance their clients to meet these new demands. Style, I believe, will follow the requirements this establishes. The CSS specifications are relatively mature. The building blocks are there. We can build nigh on any table-based layout with what resources are afforded us by the W3C, and more. _This_ is the "new way". Think about web applications with table-based layout. You _can_ do AJAX, but it's harder to grab an individual cell from a table and make it play how you want it to. This is but one example of the many things we will see emerge in the future, further relegating tables for layout purposes to irrelevance. There is a need for semantic markup now more than ever. Rich applications, arguably the future of the web, depend upon it. Data longevity depends upon it. This "new way", ironically, is not new at all. It's actually a reversion to the state of HTML pre- vendor-specific enhancements of the 1990's browser wars. HTML, as with SGML (and now XML) inherently bears a requirement of solid, semantic formation. This doesn't just mean "well formed" markup, either: it extends to appropriate use of tags. If you still believe this semantic paradigm is something new, take a look at this article written in 1997. Yes, 1997. http://www.xml.com/pub/a/w3j/s1.people.html As developers who understand the importance of standards, we are well and truly out of excuses. There are exceptions to every rule, but these are becoming increasingly sparse: perhaps the only valid (haha) excuse remaining is that of a target audience consisting largely of pre-version 5 user agents. Kind Regards, Joshua Street base10solutions Website: http://www.base10solutions.com.au/ Phone: (02) 9898-0060 Fax: (02) 8572-6021 Mobile: 0425 808 469 Multimedia Development Agency E-mails and any attachments sent from base10solutions are to be regarded as confidential. Please do not distribute or publish any of the contents of this e-mail without the sender’s consent. If you have received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender by replying to the e-mail, and then delete the message without making copies or using it in any way. Although base10solutions takes precautions to ensure that e-mail sent from our accounts are free of viruses, we encourage recipients to undertake their own virus scan on each e-mail before opening, as base10solutions accepts no responsibility for loss or damage caused by the contents of this e-mail. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for
[WSG] Problems with print style and general site check
Hi, I am having a problem getting a print stylesheet to work in Firefox 1.04 Win. It works in opera and IE, but in Fireforx the home page doesn't show up the images as expected. Actually, I have found the print preview in most recent versions of Firefox to cause crashes regularly - anyone else have this issue? The site address is www.abbychambers.com and the style sheet is: www.abbychambers.com/themes/greenstripe/print.css Also, if you are looking at the site, any general issues would be good to know about. (i know, i know - it is an inefficient use of space on the home page! And the images are quite large file sizes. There are a few that need reoptimising, but generally the image quality was more important than file size) Cheers James ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
RE: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
How about letting the table/div thread die? The debate is getting rather tiring and it doesn't look like the argument will be resolved any time soon. How about we agree to disagree for now? Julie Romanowski State Farm Insurance Company J2EE Engagement Team phone: 309-735-5248 cell: 309-532-4027 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
G'day 1. How many were generated with a WYSIWYG editor? Why would that matter. Not even the tools can get tables right? If a large portion of the sites' developers used a flawed tool, it explains partly why a large portion of them had the same problems. That's why it matters. 2. How many were generated by some sort of server side script? So script writers can;t get tables right either? Well, what does your research show? I have seen plenty of script driven sites that do not validate, whether they use tables or not. 3. How recently had they been updated? Why would that be in any way relevant? If a site is 3-5 years old, do you expect it to be written in the "new way"? 4. Were they "nested tables rule!" types (which I hate too)? Some. So now some tables based layouts are good and some not? Which ones are they? Why? Conversely, are all div based layouts good? Why? I'd rather see a simple, clean two or three column table than a page suffering from divitis and classitis (like the Barclays home page mentioned in another thread). It's a bit like statistics - they can be used to prove almost anything, depending on how you interpret them :-) Or rhetoric, which can be used to convince oneself of just about anything. I've seen plenty of evidence of that in this debate, from both camps. So here's a little more of it. In the end it is a matter of choice. A matter of what "Standards based design" means to the individual web developer. In your case it seems to mean "never use a single table for page layout". In my case it means "only use a table for layout if the alternative is proving too difficult" Tables are only as complex as you make them and yes, I have seen plenty of astoundingly complex table based layouts. I have also seen awfully complex css based designs. Anyway, I've said enough. I'm happy to dwell in the middle ground, doing what I can with what I know. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
Re: [WSG] Tables and divs and soon
And a spot on 2c it is too! Bob www.gwelanmor-internet.co.uk Seona Bellamy wrote: [snip] Standards / semantic code / CSS-P layouts / whatever else you want to call them are just a tool. Tables for layout are another tool. The mark of a good craftsman is understanding all the tools at their disposal, how to use them properly, and how to select the best one for the job. Just my 2c on this. Cheers, Seona. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help **
