Re: [WSG] Breadcrumbs showing organisational structure and usability
I should also add, that the whole notion of "we're outside the CMS just because we can" is extremely irritating to hear. Its people like you that cause massive maintenance issues and make everyone 2-3 years down the track go, "why the fk aren't these guys just using the same thing as everyone else". Its also completely contradictory to what web standards in general are all about - being consistent and completely interoperable. I am only saying this because we have one group in our organisation which have taken this path, and they just make the department as a whole look bad and inconsistent. On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 8:21 PM, Steve Baty <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thank you Jessica. Your clarification is correct :) > > 2008/6/6 Jessica Enders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > I agree with most of the comments in response to this query but thought I >> would clarify one part of what Steve said, namely that: "breadcrumbs ... >> represent the content pathway the user followed to reach their current >> page". >> >> I misread this sentence initially and so others may too. I thought Steve >> was saying that breadcrumbs represent the pathway of pages the user moved >> through to get to their current page. But what I think he's actually saying >> is that they represent the location of the current page within the site >> hierarchy. This latter type of crumb is useful because it gives you a sense >> of context; the former type of crumb is unnecessary because you have the >> "back" button. >> >> Cheers >> >> Jessica Enders >> Director >> Formulate Information Design >> >> http://formulate.com.au >> >> Phone: (02) 6116 8765 >> Fax: (02) 8456 5916 >> PO Box 5108 >> Braddon ACT 2612 >> >> >> On 06/06/2008, at 6:58 PM, Steve Baty wrote: >> >> Lib, >>> >>> Breadcrumbs fall into that category of IA component that hurts no-one, >>> and helps some people some of the time, which generally makes them >>> worthwhile. However, breadcrumbs should serve a specific purpose, that >>> being: to represent the content pathway the user followed to reach their >>> current page. If your site (overall) is structured the same way as your >>> organisation, then the breadcrumbs you've described serve their purpose >>> (although the convention is that each node in the breadcrumb be a link, >>> other than the current page). >>> >>> From what I can see, however, the intent of this device is not to act as >>> a breadcrumb trail in the navigational sense, but is, in fact, a method for >>> communicating organisational structure. That should be a different >>> conversation, and its one that is likely going to come down to 'Company >>> convention dictates' - end of discussion. >>> >>> I have some concerns about the potential for confusing users who would >>> visually associate this device with a navigational mechanism, so an >>> alternate visual treatment (especially the choice of the > delimiter) might >>> be in order. >>> >>> Otherwise, the general consensus amongst the IA community is that >>> breadcrumbs don't hurt, and they might help. >>> >>> Regards >>> Steve >>> >>> 2008/6/6 libwebdev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >>> Hi folks, >>> >>> My organisation manages around 7000+ pages for 100s of departments, >>> using a CMS. Mine is the only department outside the CMS, just because >>> we can. >>> >>> We have been persuaded (read: bullied) to redesign our header to >>> exactly match that of the parent organisation. I have no problem with >>> that per se, but theirs includes breadcrumbs, and we don't want 'em. >>> >>> I'm wondering what the consensus is here on their usefulness. I've >>> always been under the impression that the purpose of breadcrumbs was >>> to indicate to the user where they had been. However, the ones we are >>> being urged to implement do no such thing; they simply display our >>> organisational structure. This means that on every one of our 200-odd >>> pages, the breadcrumbs will appear like so (we are the library): >>> >>> Parent Org > Clinical Services > Library > Current page >>> >>> The only thing that's going to change is the current page. To me, >>> that's not a breadcrumb trail at all. >>> >>> Am I wrong in my thinking? Is this a common usage? How does this >>> benefit the user at all? >>> >>> I'm questioning it because of usability issues, which is how I tie it >>> in with web standards. If this is considered off-topic, I apologise, >>> and replies should come directly to me rather than the list. >>> >>> thanks, >>> lib. >>> >>> >>> *** >>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm >>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm >>> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> *** >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> -- >>> Stev
RE: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Jeffery > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 9:08 AM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript > > With the pure CSS version, and using Javascript to take care of IE 5, you can ensure it will work with browsers with JS disabled. > Thats why i chose to use the Suckerfish style dropdowns. > Also you can add some extra behvaiour ontop of the pure CSS menu's. Flyout/dropdown menus that do not have some timer built-in to make sure the sub menus do not close too fast may work with JS off, but that does not mean they are great menus. My .02 PS: Javascript is needed for IE6 too -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
The same image but with the content and withut the dropdown showing: http://img246.imageshack.us/my.php?image=standard01qi5.png I think it might work without the dropdown. I will have to speak to the youth centre manager on Wednesday. James On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 5:34 PM, James Jeffery < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Here is an example of the NEW idea: > http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/3992/standard01yo8.png > > This has got me thinking though. If there is going to be a sub navigation > part on every page is there really any need for the dropdown? > > By adding the dropdown the only benefit the user will get is that they > don't have to click twice to get to a section/sub page. For example to > access "Maypole Radio" they select other services and click. Without it they > would have to click "Other Services" and select from the static sub > navigation menu. > > I am not sure if its going to be worth it in the end. Obviously the static > sub navigation is going to be amust so that i can cover everything. The > Suckerfish menu now seems useless in a way. If i leave it there it may add > extra confusion to the navigation of the website. If you get what i mean. > > Cheers for the input so far. > > James > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 5:07 PM, James Jeffery < > [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> With the pure CSS version, and using Javascript to take care of IE 5, you >> can ensure it will work with browsers with JS disabled. Thats why i chose to >> use the Suckerfish style dropdowns. Also you can add some extra behvaiour >> ontop of the pure CSS menu's. >> >> I think maybe the best solution would be to display sub link on the sub >> pages. Save all the hassle of using conditionals and stuff. I did think >> about doing it this way at first but then started wondering about user >> experience and possible confusion. >> >> It's always the simple approaches that tend to be the best. >> >> Thanks for your support fellow CSS'ers >> >> On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> wrote: >> >>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> On >>> Behalf Of James Jeffery >>> Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 2:49 AM >>> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org >>> Subject: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript >>> >>> Maybe i am being a little bit picky with this. >>> >>> I have a suckerfish dropdown, as i feel it is the best approach for >>> cross-browser (but not A grade) dropdowns. The website i am working on is >>> a >>> youth centre's. The target audience is the community, which can be young >>> or >>> very old. The very old "may" be using IE 5 on older computers (at a >>> guess). >>> If they have JS disabled and are using IE 5 then they cannot view the >>> navigation links. >>> >>> Whats your views on the best way around this? >>> >>> I was thinking about sing PHP to determine what browser the user is using >>> and if JS is enabled. If its IE 5 and it is not enabled then when a user >>> clicks a link from the navigation menu the page will load but under the >>> navigation will be another div that lists the links uder that sub >>> heading. >>> >>> - >>> | nav nav nav nav nav nav nav | >>> - >>> >>> | sub link sub link | >>> | sub link sub link | >>> | sub link sub link | >>> >>> - >>> all the other content goes on as normal >>> >>> Only users who are using a browser that does not support the hover psudeo >>> selector on anything other than a elements will see that box. It will be >>> generated using PHP before the page loads. >>> >>> I was thinking about doing that for all the users, and have that >>> displaying >>> regardless, but that may add confusion to the user experience i feel. >>> >>> Anyone ideas? >>> >>> >>> Hi James, >>> I have these two: >>> http://tjkdesign.com/articles/Pure_CSS_Dropdown_Menus.asp >>> >>> I believe they are compatible with ie5 Win and Mac >>> >>> But if you ask me, I'd say the best approach would be to use a good JS >>> menu >>> rather than a "pure CSS solution". >>> >>> -- >>> Regards, >>> Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> *** >>> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm >>> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm >>> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >>> *** >>> >>> >> >> *** >> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm >> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm >> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> ***
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
Here is an example of the NEW idea: http://img391.imageshack.us/img391/3992/standard01yo8.png This has got me thinking though. If there is going to be a sub navigation part on every page is there really any need for the dropdown? By adding the dropdown the only benefit the user will get is that they don't have to click twice to get to a section/sub page. For example to access "Maypole Radio" they select other services and click. Without it they would have to click "Other Services" and select from the static sub navigation menu. I am not sure if its going to be worth it in the end. Obviously the static sub navigation is going to be amust so that i can cover everything. The Suckerfish menu now seems useless in a way. If i leave it there it may add extra confusion to the navigation of the website. If you get what i mean. Cheers for the input so far. James On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 5:07 PM, James Jeffery < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > With the pure CSS version, and using Javascript to take care of IE 5, you > can ensure it will work with browsers with JS disabled. Thats why i chose to > use the Suckerfish style dropdowns. Also you can add some extra behvaiour > ontop of the pure CSS menu's. > > I think maybe the best solution would be to display sub link on the sub > pages. Save all the hassle of using conditionals and stuff. I did think > about doing it this way at first but then started wondering about user > experience and possible confusion. > > It's always the simple approaches that tend to be the best. > > Thanks for your support fellow CSS'ers > > On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On >> Behalf Of James Jeffery >> Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 2:49 AM >> To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org >> Subject: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript >> >> Maybe i am being a little bit picky with this. >> >> I have a suckerfish dropdown, as i feel it is the best approach for >> cross-browser (but not A grade) dropdowns. The website i am working on is >> a >> youth centre's. The target audience is the community, which can be young >> or >> very old. The very old "may" be using IE 5 on older computers (at a >> guess). >> If they have JS disabled and are using IE 5 then they cannot view the >> navigation links. >> >> Whats your views on the best way around this? >> >> I was thinking about sing PHP to determine what browser the user is using >> and if JS is enabled. If its IE 5 and it is not enabled then when a user >> clicks a link from the navigation menu the page will load but under the >> navigation will be another div that lists the links uder that sub heading. >> >> - >> | nav nav nav nav nav nav nav | >> - >> >> | sub link sub link | >> | sub link sub link | >> | sub link sub link | >> >> - >> all the other content goes on as normal >> >> Only users who are using a browser that does not support the hover psudeo >> selector on anything other than a elements will see that box. It will be >> generated using PHP before the page loads. >> >> I was thinking about doing that for all the users, and have that >> displaying >> regardless, but that may add confusion to the user experience i feel. >> >> Anyone ideas? >> >> >> Hi James, >> I have these two: >> http://tjkdesign.com/articles/Pure_CSS_Dropdown_Menus.asp >> >> I believe they are compatible with ie5 Win and Mac >> >> But if you ask me, I'd say the best approach would be to use a good JS >> menu >> rather than a "pure CSS solution". >> >> -- >> Regards, >> Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> *** >> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm >> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm >> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> *** >> >> > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
With the pure CSS version, and using Javascript to take care of IE 5, you can ensure it will work with browsers with JS disabled. Thats why i chose to use the Suckerfish style dropdowns. Also you can add some extra behvaiour ontop of the pure CSS menu's. I think maybe the best solution would be to display sub link on the sub pages. Save all the hassle of using conditionals and stuff. I did think about doing it this way at first but then started wondering about user experience and possible confusion. It's always the simple approaches that tend to be the best. Thanks for your support fellow CSS'ers On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 4:50 PM, Thierry Koblentz <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On > Behalf Of James Jeffery > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 2:49 AM > To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org > Subject: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript > > Maybe i am being a little bit picky with this. > > I have a suckerfish dropdown, as i feel it is the best approach for > cross-browser (but not A grade) dropdowns. The website i am working on is a > youth centre's. The target audience is the community, which can be young or > very old. The very old "may" be using IE 5 on older computers (at a guess). > If they have JS disabled and are using IE 5 then they cannot view the > navigation links. > > Whats your views on the best way around this? > > I was thinking about sing PHP to determine what browser the user is using > and if JS is enabled. If its IE 5 and it is not enabled then when a user > clicks a link from the navigation menu the page will load but under the > navigation will be another div that lists the links uder that sub heading. > > - > | nav nav nav nav nav nav nav | > - > > | sub link sub link | > | sub link sub link | > | sub link sub link | > > - > all the other content goes on as normal > > Only users who are using a browser that does not support the hover psudeo > selector on anything other than a elements will see that box. It will be > generated using PHP before the page loads. > > I was thinking about doing that for all the users, and have that displaying > regardless, but that may add confusion to the user experience i feel. > > Anyone ideas? > > > Hi James, > I have these two: > http://tjkdesign.com/articles/Pure_CSS_Dropdown_Menus.asp > > I believe they are compatible with ie5 Win and Mac > > But if you ask me, I'd say the best approach would be to use a good JS menu > rather than a "pure CSS solution". > > -- > Regards, > Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com > > > > > > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of James Jeffery Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 2:49 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript Maybe i am being a little bit picky with this. I have a suckerfish dropdown, as i feel it is the best approach for cross-browser (but not A grade) dropdowns. The website i am working on is a youth centre's. The target audience is the community, which can be young or very old. The very old "may" be using IE 5 on older computers (at a guess). If they have JS disabled and are using IE 5 then they cannot view the navigation links. Whats your views on the best way around this? I was thinking about sing PHP to determine what browser the user is using and if JS is enabled. If its IE 5 and it is not enabled then when a user clicks a link from the navigation menu the page will load but under the navigation will be another div that lists the links uder that sub heading. - | nav nav nav nav nav nav nav | - | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | - all the other content goes on as normal Only users who are using a browser that does not support the hover psudeo selector on anything other than a elements will see that box. It will be generated using PHP before the page loads. I was thinking about doing that for all the users, and have that displaying regardless, but that may add confusion to the user experience i feel. Anyone ideas? Hi James, I have these two: http://tjkdesign.com/articles/Pure_CSS_Dropdown_Menus.asp I believe they are compatible with ie5 Win and Mac But if you ask me, I'd say the best approach would be to use a good JS menu rather than a "pure CSS solution". -- Regards, Thierry | http://www.TJKDesign.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
Joe said: > Therefore if javascript is off, any descended subnav should display in it's > expanded state. I agree with this pattern for some scenerios, for example with tabbed panels, but (depending on the design) surely with drop down navigation it would cause usability issues with the expanded states for all drop downs overlapping each other and other content *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
This is not a IE5 question, it is whether the navigation element should depend on Javascript. Navigation should not rely on javascript to display. Therefore if javascript is off, any descended subnav should display in it's expanded state. Plenty of examples of this all over the net o no need to go to far into it. joe On Jun 6 2008, at 15:47, Rachel Radford wrote: It sounds like a lot of work for something that you are purely guessing? As your audience is already part of the community that you're doing the website for, it should be easy to find out a typical setup. Many "old" people I know aren't using IE5 - either they aren't using anything or they have a computer that someone else, such as their children or grandchildren, has set up for them and is relatively new. Put the work into finding out more about your audience, as IE5 may not even need to be supported to that level. As a backup I would put a list of links to all the subpages on the parent page (where the drop downs originate from), so if there does happen to be someone using IE5 with JS turned off, then they can still easily navigate to all the pages (although it adds another step). Rach :o) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of James Jeffery Sent: Fri 06/06/2008 10:48 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript Maybe i am being a little bit picky with this. I have a suckerfish dropdown, as i feel it is the best approach for cross-browser (but not A grade) dropdowns. The website i am working on is a youth centre's. The target audience is the community, which can be young or very old. The very old "may" be using IE 5 on older computers (at a guess). If they have JS disabled and are using IE 5 then they cannot view the navigation links. Whats your views on the best way around this? I was thinking about sing PHP to determine what browser the user is using and if JS is enabled. If its IE 5 and it is not enabled then when a user clicks a link from the navigation menu the page will load but under the navigation will be another div that lists the links uder that sub heading. - | nav nav nav nav nav nav nav | - | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | - all the other content goes on as normal Only users who are using a browser that does not support the hover psudeo selector on anything other than a elements will see that box. It will be generated using PHP before the page loads. I was thinking about doing that for all the users, and have that displaying regardless, but that may add confusion to the user experience i feel. Anyone ideas? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** Joe Ortenzi [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.typingthevoid.com www.joiz.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
RE: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
It sounds like a lot of work for something that you are purely guessing? As your audience is already part of the community that you're doing the website for, it should be easy to find out a typical setup. Many "old" people I know aren't using IE5 - either they aren't using anything or they have a computer that someone else, such as their children or grandchildren, has set up for them and is relatively new. Put the work into finding out more about your audience, as IE5 may not even need to be supported to that level. As a backup I would put a list of links to all the subpages on the parent page (where the drop downs originate from), so if there does happen to be someone using IE5 with JS turned off, then they can still easily navigate to all the pages (although it adds another step). Rach :o) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] on behalf of James Jeffery Sent: Fri 06/06/2008 10:48 To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript Maybe i am being a little bit picky with this. I have a suckerfish dropdown, as i feel it is the best approach for cross-browser (but not A grade) dropdowns. The website i am working on is a youth centre's. The target audience is the community, which can be young or very old. The very old "may" be using IE 5 on older computers (at a guess). If they have JS disabled and are using IE 5 then they cannot view the navigation links. Whats your views on the best way around this? I was thinking about sing PHP to determine what browser the user is using and if JS is enabled. If its IE 5 and it is not enabled then when a user clicks a link from the navigation menu the page will load but under the navigation will be another div that lists the links uder that sub heading. - | nav nav nav nav nav nav nav | - | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | - all the other content goes on as normal Only users who are using a browser that does not support the hover psudeo selector on anything other than a elements will see that box. It will be generated using PHP before the page loads. I was thinking about doing that for all the users, and have that displaying regardless, but that may add confusion to the user experience i feel. Anyone ideas? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
Progressive enhancement is not only about old browsers, it is also about other devices. How do mobie phones and other handheld devices (ie PSP, Nintendo DS etc) browsers deal with hover pseudo selector. I would definitely go with Darren, progressive enhancement and create sub navigation pages, over Rick, Conditional Comments and building fallback for specific browser in your pages, because you never know what people with use to visit your site. Nick *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Cambio de servidor
Durante este fin de semana vamos a migrar el servidor de correo de lago|digital. Es posible que el correo que nos acaba de enviar se pierda por el camino, si es importante, por favor, confirme por telefono que lo hemos recibido o solicitenos confirmacion *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mixing CSS3 and CSS2
Keryx Web skrev: (See also D Glazmans test: Six errors in Safari 3.1, one in FFox 3.1 version of Minefield, **zero** in Opera 9.5 beta, build 10048. I have not tested nightly Webkit.) Correction: Two errors in FFox 3.1a1pre: http://www.glazman.org/weblog/dotclear/index.php?post/2008/06/06/CSS-3-Selectors-test-4 Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
On 6 Jun 2008, at 10:48, James Jeffery wrote: I have a suckerfish dropdown, as i feel it is the best approach for cross-browser (but not A grade) dropdowns. The website i am working on is a youth centre's. The target audience is the community, which can be young or very old. The very old "may" be using IE 5 on older computers (at a guess). If they have JS disabled and are using IE 5 then they cannot view the navigation links. Whats your views on the best way around this? I was thinking about sing PHP to determine what browser the user is using and if JS is enabled. If its IE 5 and it is not enabled then when a user clicks a link from the navigation menu the page will load but under the navigation will be another div that lists the links uder that sub heading. - | nav nav nav nav nav nav nav | - | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | - all the other content goes on as normal Only users who are using a browser that does not support the hover psudeo selector on anything other than a elements will see that box. It will be generated using PHP before the page loads. I was thinking about doing that for all the users, and have that displaying regardless, but that may add confusion to the user experience i feel. Anyone ideas? James, If I understand you correctly you want your 'fallback' navigation system to appear only if the user is using IE5 and does NOT have javascript enabled, right? How about putting your fallback elements inside a conditional comment targeting IE5, and also inside that comment include a call to a javascript that removes those elements. That way, the fallback elements only appear in IE5 and even then they get expunged if javascript is enabled. If the user has anything other than IE5 the elements are never seen and the javascript is not called. AFAIK Microsoft has not made any mention of Conditional Comments being retired in future versions of IE, so it should be fairly futureproof. -- Rick Lecoat *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
No i havn't herd of prog. enhancement. See you do learn something new everyday. Thanks. On 6/6/08, Darren West <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > James, > > Have you heard of progressive enhancement? > > - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Enhancement > > I would link all the 'nav' items to root pages that include the sub > links so if JS is unavailable a usable experience is provided for all, > then if JS is available, enhance the experience by displaying the 'sub > links' in a dropdown ... > > > Darren > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Breadcrumbs showing organisational structure and usability
Thank you Jessica. Your clarification is correct :) 2008/6/6 Jessica Enders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > I agree with most of the comments in response to this query but thought I > would clarify one part of what Steve said, namely that: "breadcrumbs ... > represent the content pathway the user followed to reach their current > page". > > I misread this sentence initially and so others may too. I thought Steve > was saying that breadcrumbs represent the pathway of pages the user moved > through to get to their current page. But what I think he's actually saying > is that they represent the location of the current page within the site > hierarchy. This latter type of crumb is useful because it gives you a sense > of context; the former type of crumb is unnecessary because you have the > "back" button. > > Cheers > > Jessica Enders > Director > Formulate Information Design > > http://formulate.com.au > > Phone: (02) 6116 8765 > Fax: (02) 8456 5916 > PO Box 5108 > Braddon ACT 2612 > > > On 06/06/2008, at 6:58 PM, Steve Baty wrote: > > Lib, >> >> Breadcrumbs fall into that category of IA component that hurts no-one, and >> helps some people some of the time, which generally makes them worthwhile. >> However, breadcrumbs should serve a specific purpose, that being: to >> represent the content pathway the user followed to reach their current page. >> If your site (overall) is structured the same way as your organisation, then >> the breadcrumbs you've described serve their purpose (although the >> convention is that each node in the breadcrumb be a link, other than the >> current page). >> >> From what I can see, however, the intent of this device is not to act as a >> breadcrumb trail in the navigational sense, but is, in fact, a method for >> communicating organisational structure. That should be a different >> conversation, and its one that is likely going to come down to 'Company >> convention dictates' - end of discussion. >> >> I have some concerns about the potential for confusing users who would >> visually associate this device with a navigational mechanism, so an >> alternate visual treatment (especially the choice of the > delimiter) might >> be in order. >> >> Otherwise, the general consensus amongst the IA community is that >> breadcrumbs don't hurt, and they might help. >> >> Regards >> Steve >> >> 2008/6/6 libwebdev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: >> Hi folks, >> >> My organisation manages around 7000+ pages for 100s of departments, >> using a CMS. Mine is the only department outside the CMS, just because >> we can. >> >> We have been persuaded (read: bullied) to redesign our header to >> exactly match that of the parent organisation. I have no problem with >> that per se, but theirs includes breadcrumbs, and we don't want 'em. >> >> I'm wondering what the consensus is here on their usefulness. I've >> always been under the impression that the purpose of breadcrumbs was >> to indicate to the user where they had been. However, the ones we are >> being urged to implement do no such thing; they simply display our >> organisational structure. This means that on every one of our 200-odd >> pages, the breadcrumbs will appear like so (we are the library): >> >> Parent Org > Clinical Services > Library > Current page >> >> The only thing that's going to change is the current page. To me, >> that's not a breadcrumb trail at all. >> >> Am I wrong in my thinking? Is this a common usage? How does this >> benefit the user at all? >> >> I'm questioning it because of usability issues, which is how I tie it >> in with web standards. If this is considered off-topic, I apologise, >> and replies should come directly to me rather than the list. >> >> thanks, >> lib. >> >> >> *** >> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm >> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm >> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> *** >> >> >> >> >> -- >> -- >> Steve 'Doc' Baty B.Sc (Maths), M.EC, MBA >> Principal Consultant >> Meld Consulting >> M: +61 417 061 292 >> E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> >> UX Statistics: http://uxstats.blogspot.com >> >> Member, UPA - www.upassoc.org >> Member, IA Institute - www.iainstitute.org >> Member, IxDA - www.ixda.org >> Contributor - UXMatters - www.uxmatters.com >> *** >> List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm >> Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm >> Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >> *** >> > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines
Re: [WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
James, Have you heard of progressive enhancement? - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progressive_Enhancement I would link all the 'nav' items to root pages that include the sub links so if JS is unavailable a usable experience is provided for all, then if JS is available, enhance the experience by displaying the 'sub links' in a dropdown ... Darren *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
[WSG] Suckerfish and IE 5 with no Javascript
Maybe i am being a little bit picky with this. I have a suckerfish dropdown, as i feel it is the best approach for cross-browser (but not A grade) dropdowns. The website i am working on is a youth centre's. The target audience is the community, which can be young or very old. The very old "may" be using IE 5 on older computers (at a guess). If they have JS disabled and are using IE 5 then they cannot view the navigation links. Whats your views on the best way around this? I was thinking about sing PHP to determine what browser the user is using and if JS is enabled. If its IE 5 and it is not enabled then when a user clicks a link from the navigation menu the page will load but under the navigation will be another div that lists the links uder that sub heading. - | nav nav nav nav nav nav nav | - | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | | sub link sub link | - all the other content goes on as normal Only users who are using a browser that does not support the hover psudeo selector on anything other than a elements will see that box. It will be generated using PHP before the page loads. I was thinking about doing that for all the users, and have that displaying regardless, but that may add confusion to the user experience i feel. Anyone ideas? *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Thoughts on CSSDoc
Never used it. Although i did see an article on A List Apart about documenting stylesheets ( i think its in the light reading links). I will take a peek at it now. On 6/6/08, Keryx Web <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi > > As a PHP developer I expect myself and fellow programmers to use PHPDoc for > every single file/class/function/etc they will ever write. It has become > non-negotiable. > > Most programming languages have their own implementation of this now, all > in honor of JavaDoc, who invented the system. > > Some JavaScript projects (e.g. YUI) use JSDoc, many don't. > > But what about CSSDoc. http://cssdoc.net/ > > Any users? > > Any thoughts? > > > Lars Gunther > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mixing CSS3 and CSS2
I am very excited about the and elements in HTML 5. I have
been playing with them for a while. Only browser that seems to support it
... sort of ... is Safari (im using an iMac).
Just means i will have to dedicate a few months of solid learning when HTML
5 and CSS 3 is actually released. HTML 5 will be easy to learn, its just
elements and understanding what they are used for and where to use them.
I am guessing CSS 3 is going to be a bit trickier but not to difficult as i
am already fluent in CSS 2.1.
On 6/6/08, Keryx Web <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Rahul Gonsalves skrev:
>
> #foo {
>> border: 1px solid fuscia;
>> -moz-border-radius: 0.5em;
>> -webkit-border-radius: 0.5em;
>> border-radius: 0.5em;
>> }
>>
>> This will ensure that browsers like IE6/IE7 only see the first line
>> (border...) and draw a straight box around #foo. Slightly smarter browsers
>> like Camino/Firefox 2/Safari 2 will get the the engine-specific rules
>> (-moz/-webkit) and all CSS3-supporting browsers (Safari3, Firefox3, IE8(?)
>> etc) get the last line and give you a pretty rounded corner.
>>
>
>
> Good advice, but a bit optimistic about the implementations.
>
> Firefox 3.0 does not support "border-radius", perhaps in Firefox 3.1. [1].
> There are still at least one unsettled issue in the spec (proposed soultion
> in editors draft).[2] However, unsolved implementation issues when combined
> with gradients and non-solid borders, seem to be fixed from in FFox 3.[3]
>
> Safari 3.1 does not support border-radius without the -webkit prefix.
>
> Here is a nice test from webkit's bugzilla (using prefixes for both webkit
> and moz): https://bugs.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=8633
>
> Try it in both FFox 3 and Safari 3.1 and you'll see some inconsistencies.
> Enough to drive a designer crazy.
>
> Both Webkit and Gecko use the Cairo library (except on Mac OS), so their
> rendering will probably be very close to each other in the future.
>
> MSIE 8 is supposed to get full CSS 2.1 support. CSS 3 is not really on the
> table, according to the announcements. Now that a lot of modules have moved
> much closer to REC-status the pressure to implement them is of course
> higher.
>
> There is a a ton of goodness coming up in FFox 3, including full support
> for CSS 3 selectors, media queries, HTML 5 audio and video, etc. I am
> actually looking more forward to 3.1 than 3.0 as a developer. (But I can't
> live without the awesomebar, so as a user 3.0 is great...)
>
> Lars Gunther
>
>
> 1. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=431176
> 2. http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/#the-border-radius
> 3. Compare this page in FFox 2 and FFox 3:
> http://ne.keryx.se/cssdemo/testa_css3.php
> 4.
> http://www.css3.info/firefox-31-is-the-latest-to-pass-our-selectors-test/
> (See also D Glazmans test: Six errors in Safari 3.1, one in FFox 3.1
> version of Minefield, **zero** in Opera 9.5 beta, build 10048. I have not
> tested nightly Webkit.)
>
>
> ***
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> ***
>
>
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[WSG] Thoughts on CSSDoc
Hi As a PHP developer I expect myself and fellow programmers to use PHPDoc for every single file/class/function/etc they will ever write. It has become non-negotiable. Most programming languages have their own implementation of this now, all in honor of JavaDoc, who invented the system. Some JavaScript projects (e.g. YUI) use JSDoc, many don't. But what about CSSDoc. http://cssdoc.net/ Any users? Any thoughts? Lars Gunther *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Breadcrumbs showing organisational structure and usability
I agree with most of the comments in response to this query but thought I would clarify one part of what Steve said, namely that: "breadcrumbs ... represent the content pathway the user followed to reach their current page". I misread this sentence initially and so others may too. I thought Steve was saying that breadcrumbs represent the pathway of pages the user moved through to get to their current page. But what I think he's actually saying is that they represent the location of the current page within the site hierarchy. This latter type of crumb is useful because it gives you a sense of context; the former type of crumb is unnecessary because you have the "back" button. Cheers Jessica Enders Director Formulate Information Design http://formulate.com.au Phone: (02) 6116 8765 Fax: (02) 8456 5916 PO Box 5108 Braddon ACT 2612 On 06/06/2008, at 6:58 PM, Steve Baty wrote: Lib, Breadcrumbs fall into that category of IA component that hurts no- one, and helps some people some of the time, which generally makes them worthwhile. However, breadcrumbs should serve a specific purpose, that being: to represent the content pathway the user followed to reach their current page. If your site (overall) is structured the same way as your organisation, then the breadcrumbs you've described serve their purpose (although the convention is that each node in the breadcrumb be a link, other than the current page). From what I can see, however, the intent of this device is not to act as a breadcrumb trail in the navigational sense, but is, in fact, a method for communicating organisational structure. That should be a different conversation, and its one that is likely going to come down to 'Company convention dictates' - end of discussion. I have some concerns about the potential for confusing users who would visually associate this device with a navigational mechanism, so an alternate visual treatment (especially the choice of the > delimiter) might be in order. Otherwise, the general consensus amongst the IA community is that breadcrumbs don't hurt, and they might help. Regards Steve 2008/6/6 libwebdev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: Hi folks, My organisation manages around 7000+ pages for 100s of departments, using a CMS. Mine is the only department outside the CMS, just because we can. We have been persuaded (read: bullied) to redesign our header to exactly match that of the parent organisation. I have no problem with that per se, but theirs includes breadcrumbs, and we don't want 'em. I'm wondering what the consensus is here on their usefulness. I've always been under the impression that the purpose of breadcrumbs was to indicate to the user where they had been. However, the ones we are being urged to implement do no such thing; they simply display our organisational structure. This means that on every one of our 200-odd pages, the breadcrumbs will appear like so (we are the library): Parent Org > Clinical Services > Library > Current page The only thing that's going to change is the current page. To me, that's not a breadcrumb trail at all. Am I wrong in my thinking? Is this a common usage? How does this benefit the user at all? I'm questioning it because of usability issues, which is how I tie it in with web standards. If this is considered off-topic, I apologise, and replies should come directly to me rather than the list. thanks, lib. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- -- Steve 'Doc' Baty B.Sc (Maths), M.EC, MBA Principal Consultant Meld Consulting M: +61 417 061 292 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] UX Statistics: http://uxstats.blogspot.com Member, UPA - www.upassoc.org Member, IA Institute - www.iainstitute.org Member, IxDA - www.ixda.org Contributor - UXMatters - www.uxmatters.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Breadcrumbs showing organisational structure and usability
I agree with Steve Baty Breadcrumbs hurt no one and help more than a few. I have been spending a lot of time recently with our users, talking menu systems, navigation, breadcrumbs trails and expectations. If Parent Org > Clinical Services > Library > Current page is a list of links and you can easily go from Parent Org to Clinical Services in one step and from Clinical Services to Library in one step (and hopefully from Library to Current page in one step) Then you are doing your clients a disservice, but not letting them know the full structure of your organisation and it's website. Most library users don't care about your parent org, but a few will. Plus it will give your site more authority, as it is seen part of bigger picture. You will get same answer if you asked on IAI - Information Architects Institutes mailing list. You have to join the IAI, but if your are interested in this type of thing, it is well worth it. ps I work in a library and we have a difficult parent org ;-) -- Nick Cowie http://nickcowie.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Breadcrumbs showing organisational structure and usability
Ihttp://developer.yahoo.com/ypatterns/pattern.php?pattern=breadcrumbs 2008/6/6 libwebdev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Hi folks, > > My organisation manages around 7000+ pages for 100s of departments, > using a CMS. Mine is the only department outside the CMS, just because > we can. > > We have been persuaded (read: bullied) to redesign our header to > exactly match that of the parent organisation. I have no problem with > that per se, but theirs includes breadcrumbs, and we don't want 'em. > > I'm wondering what the consensus is here on their usefulness. I've > always been under the impression that the purpose of breadcrumbs was > to indicate to the user where they had been. However, the ones we are > being urged to implement do no such thing; they simply display our > organisational structure. This means that on every one of our 200-odd > pages, the breadcrumbs will appear like so (we are the library): > > Parent Org > Clinical Services > Library > Current page > > The only thing that's going to change is the current page. To me, > that's not a breadcrumb trail at all. > > Am I wrong in my thinking? Is this a common usage? How does this > benefit the user at all? > > I'm questioning it because of usability issues, which is how I tie it > in with web standards. If this is considered off-topic, I apologise, > and replies should come directly to me rather than the list. > > thanks, > lib. > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Breadcrumbs showing organisational structure and usability
Lib, Breadcrumbs fall into that category of IA component that hurts no-one, and helps some people some of the time, which generally makes them worthwhile. However, breadcrumbs should serve a specific purpose, that being: to represent the content pathway the user followed to reach their current page. If your site (overall) is structured the same way as your organisation, then the breadcrumbs you've described serve their purpose (although the convention is that each node in the breadcrumb be a link, other than the current page). >From what I can see, however, the intent of this device is not to act as a breadcrumb trail in the navigational sense, but is, in fact, a method for communicating organisational structure. That should be a different conversation, and its one that is likely going to come down to 'Company convention dictates' - end of discussion. I have some concerns about the potential for confusing users who would visually associate this device with a navigational mechanism, so an alternate visual treatment (especially the choice of the > delimiter) might be in order. Otherwise, the general consensus amongst the IA community is that breadcrumbs don't hurt, and they might help. Regards Steve 2008/6/6 libwebdev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Hi folks, > > My organisation manages around 7000+ pages for 100s of departments, > using a CMS. Mine is the only department outside the CMS, just because > we can. > > We have been persuaded (read: bullied) to redesign our header to > exactly match that of the parent organisation. I have no problem with > that per se, but theirs includes breadcrumbs, and we don't want 'em. > > I'm wondering what the consensus is here on their usefulness. I've > always been under the impression that the purpose of breadcrumbs was > to indicate to the user where they had been. However, the ones we are > being urged to implement do no such thing; they simply display our > organisational structure. This means that on every one of our 200-odd > pages, the breadcrumbs will appear like so (we are the library): > > Parent Org > Clinical Services > Library > Current page > > The only thing that's going to change is the current page. To me, > that's not a breadcrumb trail at all. > > Am I wrong in my thinking? Is this a common usage? How does this > benefit the user at all? > > I'm questioning it because of usability issues, which is how I tie it > in with web standards. If this is considered off-topic, I apologise, > and replies should come directly to me rather than the list. > > thanks, > lib. > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > -- -- Steve 'Doc' Baty B.Sc (Maths), M.EC, MBA Principal Consultant Meld Consulting M: +61 417 061 292 E: [EMAIL PROTECTED] UX Statistics: http://uxstats.blogspot.com Member, UPA - www.upassoc.org Member, IA Institute - www.iainstitute.org Member, IxDA - www.ixda.org Contributor - UXMatters - www.uxmatters.com *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Mixing CSS3 and CSS2
Rahul Gonsalves skrev:
#foo {
border: 1px solid fuscia;
-moz-border-radius: 0.5em;
-webkit-border-radius: 0.5em;
border-radius: 0.5em;
}
This will ensure that browsers like IE6/IE7 only see the first line
(border...) and draw a straight box around #foo. Slightly smarter
browsers like Camino/Firefox 2/Safari 2 will get the the engine-specific
rules (-moz/-webkit) and all CSS3-supporting browsers (Safari3,
Firefox3, IE8(?) etc) get the last line and give you a pretty rounded
corner.
Good advice, but a bit optimistic about the implementations.
Firefox 3.0 does not support "border-radius", perhaps in Firefox 3.1.
[1]. There are still at least one unsettled issue in the spec (proposed
soultion in editors draft).[2] However, unsolved implementation issues
when combined with gradients and non-solid borders, seem to be fixed
from in FFox 3.[3]
Safari 3.1 does not support border-radius without the -webkit prefix.
Here is a nice test from webkit's bugzilla (using prefixes for both
webkit and moz): https://bugs.webkit.org/attachment.cgi?id=8633
Try it in both FFox 3 and Safari 3.1 and you'll see some
inconsistencies. Enough to drive a designer crazy.
Both Webkit and Gecko use the Cairo library (except on Mac OS), so their
rendering will probably be very close to each other in the future.
MSIE 8 is supposed to get full CSS 2.1 support. CSS 3 is not really on
the table, according to the announcements. Now that a lot of modules
have moved much closer to REC-status the pressure to implement them is
of course higher.
There is a a ton of goodness coming up in FFox 3, including full support
for CSS 3 selectors, media queries, HTML 5 audio and video, etc. I am
actually looking more forward to 3.1 than 3.0 as a developer. (But I
can't live without the awesomebar, so as a user 3.0 is great...)
Lars Gunther
1. https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=431176
2. http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css3-background/#the-border-radius
3. Compare this page in FFox 2 and FFox 3:
http://ne.keryx.se/cssdemo/testa_css3.php
4. http://www.css3.info/firefox-31-is-the-latest-to-pass-our-selectors-test/
(See also D Glazmans test: Six errors in Safari 3.1, one in FFox 3.1
version of Minefield, **zero** in Opera 9.5 beta, build 10048. I have
not tested nightly Webkit.)
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RE: [WSG] Breadcrumbs showing organisational structure and usability
Damn, this is refreshing to hear for a change! Enough said. Ted -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Mark Harris Sent: Friday, June 06, 2008 9:13 AM To: wsg@webstandardsgroup.org Subject: Re: [WSG] Breadcrumbs showing organisational structure and usability libwebdev wrote: > My organisation manages around 7000+ pages for 100s of departments, > using a CMS. Mine is the only department outside the CMS, just because > we can. > > We have been persuaded (read: bullied) to redesign our header to > exactly match that of the parent organisation. I have no problem with > that per se, but theirs includes breadcrumbs, and we don't want 'em. > Who pays your bills? Golden Rule is that the guy with the gold makes the rules. Suck it up. "Because we can" is not a valid reason to do anything. You are part of the organization, yes? Therefore you should fit within its structures and strictures, whether you like that or not. If they are wrong, document it and prove it, otherwise it sounds like petulance to me. *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Wiki's and standards
James/Mark, Thanks for the feedback! Best regards, Rob PS. The data-portability element for is something I hadn't thought of so thanks. 2008/6/6 Mark Harris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Rob Enslin wrote: > >> Hello WSG Group, >> >> Our company have asked me to look into potential Wiki software for our >> corporate community (intranet-style). The person driving the Wiki has >> suggested using Jive's Clearspace ( >> http://www.jivesoftware.com/products/clearspace). >> >> With web standards in mind: >> >> 1. Has anyone used Clearspace and have any comments? >> 2. Any standards-related issues when rolling out a corporate Wiki >> solution? >> 3. Any other favoured Wiki software they could recommend and why? >> >> Any thoughts, comments or ideas would be great. >> >> The NZ Govt Webstandards wiki uses MediaWiki ( > http://webstandards.govt.nz/index.php/About_this_wiki) and that seems to > be pretty good. I'm sure they've set it up to comply with (at least) the NZ > Govt Web Standards and Recommendations but you can ask them at > [EMAIL PROTECTED] ;-) > > Cheers > > mark > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Breadcrumbs showing organisational structure and usability
I agree with Mark Harris. Mark Harris wrote: libwebdev wrote: My organisation manages around 7000+ pages for 100s of departments, using a CMS. Mine is the only department outside the CMS, just because we can. We have been persuaded (read: bullied) to redesign our header to exactly match that of the parent organisation. I have no problem with that per se, but theirs includes breadcrumbs, and we don't want 'em. Who pays your bills? Golden Rule is that the guy with the gold makes the rules. Suck it up. "Because we can" is not a valid reason to do anything. You are part of the organization, yes? Therefore you should fit within its structures and strictures, whether you like that or not. If they are wrong, document it and prove it, otherwise it sounds like petulance to me. I'm wondering what the consensus is here on their usefulness. I've always been under the impression that the purpose of breadcrumbs was to indicate to the user where they had been. However, the ones we are being urged to implement do no such thing; they simply display our organisational structure. This means that on every one of our 200-odd pages, the breadcrumbs will appear like so (we are the library): Parent Org > Clinical Services > Library > Current page The only thing that's going to change is the current page. To me, that's not a breadcrumb trail at all. Am I wrong in my thinking? Is this a common usage? How does this benefit the user at all? Yes it is useful to the user because: - it gives them an easy way to get back to a senior hierarchical level _without_ having to go back through the history. Or perhaps they hit your page from Google (most likely) and haven't already been through your hierarchy - they get a quick view of the authoritativeness of the page and where it fits in your organizational structure; - the users are used to seeing breadcrumbs and using them. Your preferences should not impact their use - you're presenting information for them to consume and so should design for their needs. I'm questioning it because of usability issues, which is how I tie it in with web standards. If this is considered off-topic, I apologise, and replies should come directly to me rather than the list. Let's be honest, lib - you're questioning this because _you_ don't want to do it and you're looking for something to wave at the people who want you to do it that says "98% of web gurus agree with me so yah boo sucks, we're not doing it". Don't cloak it with usability or web standards. Cheers Mark Harris Technology Research and consultancy Services Ltd New Zealand *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** ***List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfmUnsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfmHelp: [EMAIL PROTECTED]***
Re: [WSG] Breadcrumbs showing organisational structure and usability
libwebdev wrote: My organisation manages around 7000+ pages for 100s of departments, using a CMS. Mine is the only department outside the CMS, just because we can. We have been persuaded (read: bullied) to redesign our header to exactly match that of the parent organisation. I have no problem with that per se, but theirs includes breadcrumbs, and we don't want 'em. Who pays your bills? Golden Rule is that the guy with the gold makes the rules. Suck it up. "Because we can" is not a valid reason to do anything. You are part of the organization, yes? Therefore you should fit within its structures and strictures, whether you like that or not. If they are wrong, document it and prove it, otherwise it sounds like petulance to me. I'm wondering what the consensus is here on their usefulness. I've always been under the impression that the purpose of breadcrumbs was to indicate to the user where they had been. However, the ones we are being urged to implement do no such thing; they simply display our organisational structure. This means that on every one of our 200-odd pages, the breadcrumbs will appear like so (we are the library): Parent Org > Clinical Services > Library > Current page The only thing that's going to change is the current page. To me, that's not a breadcrumb trail at all. Am I wrong in my thinking? Is this a common usage? How does this benefit the user at all? Yes it is useful to the user because: - it gives them an easy way to get back to a senior hierarchical level _without_ having to go back through the history. Or perhaps they hit your page from Google (most likely) and haven't already been through your hierarchy - they get a quick view of the authoritativeness of the page and where it fits in your organizational structure; - the users are used to seeing breadcrumbs and using them. Your preferences should not impact their use - you're presenting information for them to consume and so should design for their needs. I'm questioning it because of usability issues, which is how I tie it in with web standards. If this is considered off-topic, I apologise, and replies should come directly to me rather than the list. Let's be honest, lib - you're questioning this because _you_ don't want to do it and you're looking for something to wave at the people who want you to do it that says "98% of web gurus agree with me so yah boo sucks, we're not doing it". Don't cloak it with usability or web standards. Cheers Mark Harris Technology Research and consultancy Services Ltd New Zealand *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Breadcrumbs showing organisational structure and usability
Hi lib, The organization that I am part of uses breadcrumbs, however they're used to display where the user has been and one link to indicate the top level. I think in terms of usability they can help a user associate themselves with your structure if they're really searching for something. They're also typically used as a last bail option when all else fails (including the Back button). To be honest, in your case they don't benefit the user in any sort of way except perhaps help them understand how your corporate structure works (but who actually cares?). On Fri, Jun 6, 2008 at 4:45 PM, libwebdev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi folks, > > My organisation manages around 7000+ pages for 100s of departments, > using a CMS. Mine is the only department outside the CMS, just because > we can. > > We have been persuaded (read: bullied) to redesign our header to > exactly match that of the parent organisation. I have no problem with > that per se, but theirs includes breadcrumbs, and we don't want 'em. > > I'm wondering what the consensus is here on their usefulness. I've > always been under the impression that the purpose of breadcrumbs was > to indicate to the user where they had been. However, the ones we are > being urged to implement do no such thing; they simply display our > organisational structure. This means that on every one of our 200-odd > pages, the breadcrumbs will appear like so (we are the library): > > Parent Org > Clinical Services > Library > Current page > > The only thing that's going to change is the current page. To me, > that's not a breadcrumb trail at all. > > Am I wrong in my thinking? Is this a common usage? How does this > benefit the user at all? > > I'm questioning it because of usability issues, which is how I tie it > in with web standards. If this is considered off-topic, I apologise, > and replies should come directly to me rather than the list. > > thanks, > lib. > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > -- - Anton Babushkin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] Breadcrumbs showing organisational structure and usability
Hi Lib, this may be off topic and more a usability question. however I see relatedness in how to structure them semantically and to benifit those that may wish to use them. I find that they can be a nice to have to assist users, however if you have to tab through these, they become extra links and not much assistance for accessibility users. I'm sure others will have some more standards related comments for you. But I feel it comes more down to the benifit for the users if these are used at all. William > libwebdev <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Hi folks, > > My organisation manages around 7000+ pages for 100s of departments, > using a CMS. Mine is the only department outside the CMS, just because > we can. > > We have been persuaded (read: bullied) to redesign our header to > exactly match that of the parent organisation. I have no problem with > that per se, but theirs includes breadcrumbs, and we don't want 'em. > > I'm wondering what the consensus is here on their usefulness. I've > always been under the impression that the purpose of breadcrumbs was > to indicate to the user where they had been. However, the ones we are > being urged to implement do no such thing; they simply display our > organisational structure. This means that on every one of our 200-odd > pages, the breadcrumbs will appear like so (we are the library): > > Parent Org > Clinical Services > Library > Current page > > The only thing that's going to change is the current page. To me, > that's not a breadcrumb trail at all. > > Am I wrong in my thinking? Is this a common usage? How does this > benefit the user at all? > > I'm questioning it because of usability issues, which is how I tie it > in with web standards. If this is considered off-topic, I apologise, > and replies should come directly to me rather than the list. > > thanks, > lib. > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
