Re: [WSG] After CSS?
Sorry if I'm a little late to the part on this one, but I think you can rest a little on CSS now -- CSS3 is s far away from being usable, because we're still trying to get IE6 to play well with CSS2, and we're STILL seeing really buggy browsers like IE5 all over our logs. There's much more to web design than CSS/XHTML though -- here's some food for thought: 1. Accessibility (508, WAIG, etc) will eventually become law, if it hasn't already in your area. Most of the requirements are really easy, so there's no excuse for not getting at least 95% accessible. 2. Usability (making something *truly* intuitive to understand and interactive with) is the difference between a good interface, and a bad one. You'll spend your whole life perfecting this skill, so you might as well get started now! 3. DOM scripting can be used to *enhance* the experience for UA's with JavaScript available, while continuing to remain 100% accessible to those without. 4. Flash replacement techniques are going to be BIG. They can allow you, the designer, to meet some of the more challenging needs of your clients (like graphical headings in an obscure font) with minimal impact to your time and budget. 5. Defensive Design & User Experience Design is related to interface design, but it's pretty much it's own thing. What happens if a form is filled out incorrectly, or there's an error, or a user enters something unexpected or malicious into a form? See http://37signals.com/book/ to understand what I mean. 6. Server-side scripting. Websites need to fulfil much larger goals now than ever before, and usually this involves some sort of server-side data manipulation (everything from a contact form to a product database). Most clients will also want a CMS. You need a basic understanding of PHP or a similar server-side language to: a) meet basic client needs b) collaborate efficiently with programmers on larger projects and teams 7. Content is King. Writing or editing for the web is a fine art. You may think this isn't your job, but if you manage websites, then I think it is part of your huge job description. You should at least be able to edit and re-word content to suit the web, and recognise bloat. That should keep us all occupied for about the next 400 years :) And by the way, thanks, I think you've just inspired a new article for me to write on my site tonight :) Justin French http://justinfrench.com/ http://indent.com.au/ On 23/07/2004, at 8:45 PM, 7 sinz wrote: Hi all, Im an 19 yer old desinger, with a particular interest in web design. For the last 8 motnhs i've been huddled up in my workspace practising my art learning the ins and out of CSS and pretty much learning the language to a T. Anything i used to do with nested tables I now write with CSS, layouts dependant on the viewport are atill time consuming to make, and depending on browser support/target audience & scale of the project they can be time consuming, still i managae to pull through. Fixed width layouts are no brainers to use, i feel once you've comfortably mastered positioning in CSS you pretty much can design any layout you cut outta of Photoshop/other image editor. Not to say that thats all you need to know when developing with CSS, but it is a main part of structual design, once you can write it fluently theres no stopping or holing back with what kind of structure your static design may be. Now, it took me a while to get here, but we all got to start somewhere. But what now? How can you prepare for the next specification, new attributes and selectors, is there a test suite for CSS3?. Im a graphic designer, who's passion for web development introduced me to one of the strongest client side languages available to any developer, now that im at a point of "speaking fluent CSS" what do i tackle next, what new CSS3 flavours can i focus on for the next wave of innovation? --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
RE: [WSG] After CSS?
I would then recommend you go beyond XHTML Basic and focus upon the variants available. After that I would recommend you focus upon Ruby and Earl. I hope this helps. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
RE: [WSG] After CSS?
So, what are your skillsets? With this information I can tell you where I would move you if you were in my employ. Right now CSS/JS/PHP/Flash and pretty much any image editor. I still love design, whether it's print,web or interactive, but i also like the flavours that CSS/DOM/XML can bring to the table. So i very much so headed in the direction of learning more about DOM scripting and XML..along the way reading adn learning more about accessiabilty and CSS3. Cheers Steven _ Searching for that dream home? Try http://ninemsn.realestate.com.au for all your property needs. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] After CSS?
Andy Budd Said: As Jeremy Keith says, "The DOM is the new CSS" so my advice would be to look to the DOM as your next adventure in web standards. I've been quite active in learning W3C DOM, i find PPk's articles invaulable, very straight forward even for the beginner scripter to learn the code. And i can see the great potential with DOM that i wont stay a beginner for long. I also take into the count about previous comments, about accessibility to the disabled, i feel that all should enjoy the web// and I'm pretty much going to build my professional career on that ideal. Thanks for all those who replide, i was somewhat shy about posting the thread, mainly i thought i was going to get alot of " you'll never be a fluent CSS designer" but you guys have sure chucked that notion out the window. Thanks again guys Steven _ ½ Price FOXTEL Digital Installation On-Line Limited Offer: http://ninemsn.com.au/share/redir/adTrack.asp?mode=click&clientID=225&referral=Hotmail_tagline_July04&URL=http://ad.au.doubleclick.net/clk;9412514;9681905;p?http://www.foxtel.com.au/2231.htm * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
RE: [WSG] After CSS?
Accessibility is a great place to start as previously pointed out. However, there are many other standards you could start learning. I don't know which skillsets you have so far and I don't think anyone asked. So, what are your skillsets? With this information I can tell you where I would move you if you were in my employ. Lee Roberts http://www.roserockdesign.com http://www.applepiecart.com * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] After CSS?
sinz wrote: Now, it took me a while to get here, but we all got to start somewhere. But what now? How can you prepare for the next specification, new attributes and selectors, is there a test suite for CSS3?. Im a graphic designer, who's passion for web development introduced me to one of the strongest client side languages available to any developer, now that im at a point of "speaking fluent CSS" what do i tackle next, what new CSS3 flavours can i focus on for the next wave of innovation? Well you can find a lot of the working drafts for CSS3 here http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/current-work Although considering how quickly (or slowly) these things take to get finished and implemented, I doubt you'll be writing CSS3 pages until you're into your late 20's. As Jeremy Keith says, "The DOM is the new CSS" so my advice would be to look to the DOM as your next adventure in web standards. Andy Budd http://www.message.uk.com/ * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
RE: [WSG] After CSS?
Sorry, Pat ... how about: Get stuck into accessibility. It's cool :o) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Patrick Lauke Sent: 23 July 2004 14:23 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: [WSG] After CSS? Mike, nicely worded, if a bit convoluted. May I suggest WCAG checkpoint 14.1 ;) > -Original Message- > From: Mike Pepper > Sent: 23 July 2004 13:07 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [WSG] After CSS? > > > Accessibility. Extend your skillsets with an understanding of > the challenges > faced by impaired users, whether physically or cerebrally > impaired. The > practical upshot of such consideration for fellow users is the market > expansion afforded yourself and clients as you penetrate and > take hold of > these markets. > > Mike Pepper > Accessible Web Developer > www.seowebsitepromotion.com > > GAWDS Administrator > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.gawds.org * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] After CSS?
7 sinz wrote: Im an 19 yer old desinger, with a particular interest in web design. For the last 8 motnhs i've been huddled up in my workspace practising my art learning the ins and out of CSS and pretty much learning the language to a T. Now, it took me a while to get here, but we all got to start somewhere. But what now? CSS is a great tool (an would be even better when supported properly), but by itself is meaningless. The real meat and potatoes of the Web is content. Therefor, understanding how to properly and semantically mark up a page is also very important. As most sites aren't just one page, having an understanding of Information Architecture, or how to properly organize information, is very important. And as a complement, understanding usability theory and the accessibility guidelines is a must. Since the Web is an interactive media, learning PHP and JavaScript are also important. Understanding programming theory in general, and the theories behind these two languages would be very useful. On a practical level, I wouldn't worry too much about getting deep into JavaScript. While I find it an interesting language from a Computer Science perspective, in real world situation I find I only use it lightly. An understanding of Apache is good, but here too a deep understanding is usually not needed. I agree with t94xr that Topstyle is an excellent choice for CSS editing, but it's also very good for XHTML. The upcoming version 4 (afaik, still in the early stages) should be even better. I also use Topstyle for PHP, although here's not where it shines. I find it's good enough to justify not using a separate editor. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
RE: [WSG] After CSS?
Mike, nicely worded, if a bit convoluted. May I suggest WCAG checkpoint 14.1 ;) > -Original Message- > From: Mike Pepper > Sent: 23 July 2004 13:07 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [WSG] After CSS? > > > Accessibility. Extend your skillsets with an understanding of > the challenges > faced by impaired users, whether physically or cerebrally > impaired. The > practical upshot of such consideration for fellow users is the market > expansion afforded yourself and clients as you penetrate and > take hold of > these markets. > > Mike Pepper > Accessible Web Developer > www.seowebsitepromotion.com > > GAWDS Administrator > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.gawds.org * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
Re: [WSG] After CSS?
Well done. Sadly there are alot of webdesigners unlike you who are still in the Photoshop phase and dont seem to be leaving it anytime soon. I would say if you know all that, learn how to setup a domain, and get yourself up. Then you can play at ur hearts content. If you love CSS - use Topstyle - it enters you into another kind of phase. Dreamweaver MX 2004 for your XHTML coding and PHP coding. Localhost (convert your computer into a makeshift HTTP server and run ur sites with PHP. Small HTTP Server is recommended for a small one. ___ Cameron W (aka t94xr) http://www.t94xr.net.nz/ XHTML & CSS Compliant. Taupo, NZ. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
RE: [WSG] After CSS?
Accessibility. Extend your skillsets with an understanding of the challenges faced by impaired users, whether physically or cerebrally impaired. The practical upshot of such consideration for fellow users is the market expansion afforded yourself and clients as you penetrate and take hold of these markets. Mike Pepper Accessible Web Developer www.seowebsitepromotion.com GAWDS Administrator [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.gawds.org -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of 7 sinz Sent: 23 July 2004 11:45 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [WSG] After CSS? Hi all, Im an 19 yer old desinger, with a particular interest in web design. For the last 8 motnhs i've been huddled up in my workspace practising my art learning the ins and out of CSS and pretty much learning the language to a T. Anything i used to do with nested tables I now write with CSS, layouts dependant on the viewport are atill time consuming to make, and depending on browser support/target audience & scale of the project they can be time consuming, still i managae to pull through. Fixed width layouts are no brainers to use, i feel once you've comfortably mastered positioning in CSS you pretty much can design any layout you cut outta of Photoshop/other image editor. Not to say that thats all you need to know when developing with CSS, but it is a main part of structual design, once you can write it fluently theres no stopping or holing back with what kind of structure your static design may be. Now, it took me a while to get here, but we all got to start somewhere. But what now? How can you prepare for the next specification, new attributes and selectors, is there a test suite for CSS3?. Im a graphic designer, who's passion for web development introduced me to one of the strongest client side languages available to any developer, now that im at a point of "speaking fluent CSS" what do i tackle next, what new CSS3 flavours can i focus on for the next wave of innovation? Kind Regards _ Searching for that dream home? Try http://ninemsn.realestate.com.au for all your property needs. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
[WSG] After CSS?
Hi all, Im an 19 yer old desinger, with a particular interest in web design. For the last 8 motnhs i've been huddled up in my workspace practising my art learning the ins and out of CSS and pretty much learning the language to a T. Anything i used to do with nested tables I now write with CSS, layouts dependant on the viewport are atill time consuming to make, and depending on browser support/target audience & scale of the project they can be time consuming, still i managae to pull through. Fixed width layouts are no brainers to use, i feel once you've comfortably mastered positioning in CSS you pretty much can design any layout you cut outta of Photoshop/other image editor. Not to say that thats all you need to know when developing with CSS, but it is a main part of structual design, once you can write it fluently theres no stopping or holing back with what kind of structure your static design may be. Now, it took me a while to get here, but we all got to start somewhere. But what now? How can you prepare for the next specification, new attributes and selectors, is there a test suite for CSS3?. Im a graphic designer, who's passion for web development introduced me to one of the strongest client side languages available to any developer, now that im at a point of "speaking fluent CSS" what do i tackle next, what new CSS3 flavours can i focus on for the next wave of innovation? Kind Regards _ Searching for that dream home? Try http://ninemsn.realestate.com.au for all your property needs. * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list & getting help *
