Re: [WSG] CMS review
At 2/28/2008 03:57 PM, alysia hill wrote: I have just discovered this australian based company Powerfront. I am really interested in some feedback. ... Here is an example website which I think is pretty good http://www.goodshepvic.org.au/ Here is the company website http://www.powerfront.com/ Try validating their markup: http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.goodshepvic.org.au Failed validation, 188 Errors http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.powerfront.com Failed validation, 160 Errors These results indicate, not the occasional slip-up to which we are all susceptible, but a significant misuse for the tools of their trade. In particular, there's little excuse for a CMS to produce markup this shoddy. While we might forgive a site hand-coded once, a CMS generates many sites and therefore bears a greater responsibility to do it properly. Broken markup can produce nightmares for styling, accessibility, machine-readability, and search engine optimization. In your search for a CMS I recommend you look for valid markup, versatility (not locked into limited templates), and ease of use. Good luck! Paul *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CMS review
On 29/02/2008, at 5:12 PM, Bruce wrote: Does this mean that I can add a menu below the banner by simply adding the html to the template, and css to the css file? Yes. Change the Doctype at will, edit any template or add new additional ones? Customize what shows in a menu using html in the template itself, limit items in the menu in the template and not in some admin WYSIWTG editor? Yes, yes, yes. Yes, yes and almost - each item has an option whether or not to be displayed in any automatically generated navigation, which includes menus. If yes, I'll have to take a look cause haven't found but 2 in over 5 years, and I do this full time. Please do. :) cYa, Avi -- MySource Matrix Product Evangelist < Sydney / Melbourne / Canberra / Hobart / London /> 2/340 Gore Street T: +61 (0) 3 9235 5400 Fitzroy, VIC F: +61 (0) 3 9235 5444 3202 W: http://www.squiz.net/ .>> Open Source - Own it - Squiz.net ./> *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CMS review
On Feb 28, 2008, at 9:10 PM, Bruce wrote:
This conversation comes up frequently. Unfortunately most of what
are called content management systems do not let the developer
determine what shows in the published template, as they are wrapped
around the core programming and difficult to customize and change at
will..
Thus the question for a standards producing cms.
What is needed is a cms that has the template code in the open in
{x}html format which allows unlimited customization of it.
I believe you are talking the Modx CMS. Simply put, MOdx doesn't
dictate how you code. Your code, your choice!
There are quite a number of threads posted by people converted from
Drupal, Wordpress, TextPattern and Joomla posting their comments on
Modx that I think worth to read.
456 bereast asked for CMS recommendatin, and some Modx users gave some
very good point.
http://www.456bereastreet.com/archive/200802/looking_for_open_source_cms_and_portal_software_options/
tee
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Re: [WSG] CMS review
"> One of the goals of MySource Matrix is to allow the end-user to
customise every single piece of output text without development."
Does this mean that I can add a menu below the banner by simply adding the
html to the template, and css to the css file?
Change the Doctype at will, edit any template or add new additional ones?
Customize what shows in a menu using html in the template itself, limit
items in the menu in the template and not in some admin WYSIWTG editor?
The principle wanted is that the template that shows an article for example,
is 100% editable and accessible in it's entirety for editing.
If yes, I'll have to take a look cause haven't found but 2 in over 5 years,
and I do this full time.
Thanks
Bruce
bkdesign
- Original Message -
From: "Avi Miller" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
Sent: Friday, February 29, 2008 12:35 AM
Subject: Re: [WSG] CMS review
On 29/02/2008, at 4:10 PM, Bruce wrote:
What is needed is a cms that has the template code in the open in
{x}html format which allows unlimited customization of it.
One of the goals of MySource Matrix is to allow the end-user to customise
every single piece of output text without development. I reckon we're at
about 98% coverage on this and we urge our clients to alert us if there
is a piece of content generated by MySource Matrix that isn't
customisable, so we can fix it. :)
We also strong believe in standard, compliance and accessibility and
strive to provide a CMS that enables all of these.
cYa,
Avi
--
MySource Matrix Product Evangelist
< Sydney / Melbourne / Canberra / Hobart / London />
2/340 Gore Street T: +61 (0) 3 9235 5400
Fitzroy, VIC F: +61 (0) 3 9235 5444
3202 W: http://www.squiz.net/
.>> Open Source - Own it - Squiz.net ./>
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Re: [WSG] CMS review
On 29/02/2008, at 4:10 PM, Bruce wrote:
What is needed is a cms that has the template code in the open in
{x}html format which allows unlimited customization of it.
One of the goals of MySource Matrix is to allow the end-user to
customise every single piece of output text without development. I
reckon we're at about 98% coverage on this and we urge our clients to
alert us if there is a piece of content generated by MySource Matrix
that isn't customisable, so we can fix it. :)
We also strong believe in standard, compliance and accessibility and
strive to provide a CMS that enables all of these.
cYa,
Avi
--
MySource Matrix Product Evangelist
< Sydney / Melbourne / Canberra / Hobart / London />
2/340 Gore Street T: +61 (0) 3 9235 5400
Fitzroy, VIC F: +61 (0) 3 9235 5444
3202 W: http://www.squiz.net/
.>> Open Source - Own it - Squiz.net ./>
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Re: [WSG] CMS review
This conversation comes up frequently. Unfortunately most of what are called
content management systems do not let the developer determine what shows in
the published template, as they are wrapped around the core programming and
difficult to customize and change at will..
Thus the question for a standards producing cms.
What is needed is a cms that has the template code in the open in {x}html
format which allows unlimited customization of it.
Then the tags representing the data are added in.
title, body, extended text, custom fields etc.
These also are simply containers of data, without markup aside from
paragraph and break tags, and the developer adds what he/she wishes for css.
Separation of data and formatting/presentation. Perfect rss. Freedom.
Over the last five years I looked for this. I found 2 out of over 40, and
every new one out is the same, inaccessible.
These two are Movable Type and Expression Engine.
The templates contain what YOU want them to, the cms simply gives you the
tags representing the data which is usually plain text.
Perfect, the CMS is as Standard as YOU make it, not as Standard as the
original programmer decides.
Freedom is a good thing, yes?
Bruce Prochnau
BKDesign Solutions
- Original Message -
From: "Webb, KerryA" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
Sent: Thursday, February 28, 2008 7:20 PM
Subject: RE: [WSG] CMS review
Alysia wrote:
Hello.
I have just discovered this australian based company Powerfront. I am
really interested in some feedback.
Here is an example website which I think is pretty good
http://www.goodshepvic.org.au/
It prompts you to download Flash 9 - which people on locked-down
computers may not be able to do - and doesn't let you know what happens
if you don't do it.
I don't think that's pretty good.
Lots of empty ALT attributes, for non-decorative elements.
Text size is not adjustable in IE6.
Kerry
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RE: [WSG] CMS review
Alysia wrote: > > Hello. > > I have just discovered this australian based company Powerfront. I am > really interested in some feedback. > > Here is an example website which I think is pretty good > http://www.goodshepvic.org.au/ > It prompts you to download Flash 9 - which people on locked-down computers may not be able to do - and doesn't let you know what happens if you don't do it. I don't think that's pretty good. Lots of empty ALT attributes, for non-decorative elements. Text size is not adjustable in IE6. Kerry --- This email, and any attachments, may be confidential and also privileged. If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender and delete all copies of this transmission along with any attachments immediately. You should not copy or use it for any purpose, nor disclose its contents to any other person. --- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CMS review
That code isn't standards based. Use textpattern. -kevin *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CMS review
Hi there, Alysia. The code on both sites looks awful to me: the huge list of styles in the header, the bloated table-based layout. Both are drawbacks as they tend to lengthen page-loading time and create a lag effect for the user. Not a pleasant, I-want-to-return sort of environment, to say the least. And clearly part of the CMS itself. On another note, however, you refer to standards-compliance as though it's somehow separate from usability, but it's not. The standards are "best practices" because they provide a better experience for the user, and they help the developer save time and money. Plus, they're set up to create pages that will work with the most types of browsers, which also adds to the usability of the site. Why in the world would anyone *not* want this? Sincerely, Jo Hawke http://www.viabledesign.com On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 6:57 PM, alysia hill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Hello. > > I have just discovered this australian based company Powerfront. I am > really interested in some feedback. > > I'm a graphic designer, and I have worked with developers that build > wonderful standards compliant websites with a CMS. > I have looked at the source code of Powerfront websites, which appears > to have a lot of syling in the html pages, rather > than in a CSS file. From a 'non programming' person, this doesn't look > very standards compliant. > > My question is, Is it standards compliant? If not, does that matter? Can > anyone fault these websites? > > I have the up most regard for the WSG, and all those in the industry > creating conferences, speaking publicly, > writing articles etc on making code better for all concerned, but > leaving that aside, does anyone have any > critisisms about this CMS (other than the fact that it might not be > compliant?) > > Here is an example website which I think is pretty good > http://www.goodshepvic.org.au/ > > Here is the company website > http://www.powerfront.com/ > > Any Powerfront employees, I welcome your feedback too! > > thanks, alysia > > > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CMS review
Please consider that a cms is a tool too allow people to add there own content. So the inline styling may in fact be added by the end user. For the example site linked to - http://www.goodshepvic.org.au/ - I didn't even get as far down to what might've been user entered content. Incomplete doctype, tables-based layout, bloated CSS with class names that don't mean anything all included in the page instead of an external stylesheet - these are things that have got nothing to do with the content editors/creators. I also doubt it's a case of a poor template implementation on the part of this particular customer because the CMS vendor's website displays similar markup. -- Tyssen Design http://www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CMS review
Please consider that a cms is a tool too allow people to add there own content. So the inline styling may in fact be added by the end user. Most wysiwyg editors allow you to define styles for the content, however I find a lot of people do not go to this little effort, rather opting for the inline styles (example, choosing font sizes, colors etc). I am in the process of writing my own cms program (based on zend framework) that overcomes these problems. I am using xinha as the editor. As a programmer we can code a system as best as we can - but still can't control what the end user decides to do with it unless we are really restrictive - but that brings about unnecessary support questions regarding content insertion. My 2c. Adam On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 10:28 AM, John Faulds <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Me, personally, I wouldn't use a CMS that produced mark-up like that. > Especially not when I know there are others out there that will do a > better job (haven't explored Powerfront too closely to find out whether > it's possible to alter the output mark-up). > > I'd have to ask though: why are you looking at Powerfront if you've worked > with people who produce better sites using other CMSs? > > On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:57:56 +1000, alysia hill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > wrote: > > > > > > > Hello. > > > > I have just discovered this australian based company Powerfront. I am > > really interested in some feedback. > > > > I'm a graphic designer, and I have worked with developers that build > > wonderful standards compliant websites with a CMS. > > I have looked at the source code of Powerfront websites, which appears > > to have a lot of syling in the html pages, rather > > than in a CSS file. From a 'non programming' person, this doesn't look > > very standards compliant. > > > > My question is, Is it standards compliant? If not, does that matter? Can > > anyone fault these websites? > > > > I have the up most regard for the WSG, and all those in the industry > > creating conferences, speaking publicly, > > writing articles etc on making code better for all concerned, but > > leaving that aside, does anyone have any > > critisisms about this CMS (other than the fact that it might not be > > compliant?) > > > > Here is an example website which I think is pretty good > > http://www.goodshepvic.org.au/ > > > > Here is the company website > > http://www.powerfront.com/ > > > > Any Powerfront employees, I welcome your feedback too! > > > > thanks, alysia > > > > > > > > > > *** > > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > *** > > > > > > -- > Tyssen Design > http://www.tyssendesign.com.au > Ph: (07) 3300 3303 > Mb: 0405 678 590 > > > *** > List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm > Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm > Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > *** > > -- - http://myfitness.ning.com A community of people that care about their health and fitness Free fitness videos, recipes, blogs, photos etc. -- *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CMS review
Me, personally, I wouldn't use a CMS that produced mark-up like that. Especially not when I know there are others out there that will do a better job (haven't explored Powerfront too closely to find out whether it's possible to alter the output mark-up). I'd have to ask though: why are you looking at Powerfront if you've worked with people who produce better sites using other CMSs? On Fri, 29 Feb 2008 09:57:56 +1000, alysia hill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Hello. I have just discovered this australian based company Powerfront. I am really interested in some feedback. I'm a graphic designer, and I have worked with developers that build wonderful standards compliant websites with a CMS. I have looked at the source code of Powerfront websites, which appears to have a lot of syling in the html pages, rather than in a CSS file. From a 'non programming' person, this doesn't look very standards compliant. My question is, Is it standards compliant? If not, does that matter? Can anyone fault these websites? I have the up most regard for the WSG, and all those in the industry creating conferences, speaking publicly, writing articles etc on making code better for all concerned, but leaving that aside, does anyone have any critisisms about this CMS (other than the fact that it might not be compliant?) Here is an example website which I think is pretty good http://www.goodshepvic.org.au/ Here is the company website http://www.powerfront.com/ Any Powerfront employees, I welcome your feedback too! thanks, alysia *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** -- Tyssen Design http://www.tyssendesign.com.au Ph: (07) 3300 3303 Mb: 0405 678 590 *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
Re: [WSG] CMS review
Hello. I have just discovered this australian based company Powerfront. I am really interested in some feedback. I'm a graphic designer, and I have worked with developers that build wonderful standards compliant websites with a CMS. I have looked at the source code of Powerfront websites, which appears to have a lot of syling in the html pages, rather than in a CSS file. From a 'non programming' person, this doesn't look very standards compliant. My question is, Is it standards compliant? If not, does that matter? Can anyone fault these websites? I have the up most regard for the WSG, and all those in the industry creating conferences, speaking publicly, writing articles etc on making code better for all concerned, but leaving that aside, does anyone have any critisisms about this CMS (other than the fact that it might not be compliant?) Here is an example website which I think is pretty good http://www.goodshepvic.org.au/ Here is the company website http://www.powerfront.com/ Any Powerfront employees, I welcome your feedback too! thanks, alysia *** List Guidelines: http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm Unsubscribe: http://webstandardsgroup.org/join/unsubscribe.cfm Help: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ***
