Re: [WSG] Images in Nav, Splash Screens.
No, I was afraid of what could I find inside. Been hard enough to convince my customer I was not going to take it as an example. Since then I've learned not to ask prospective clients what kind of website they would like to have... Bennie Shepherd wrote: Did ya sign up so you could enter? :o) P.S. they're denim fabric wholesalers, I think. Dejan Kozina Web Design Studio Dolina 346 (TS) I-34018 Trst/Trieste - Italy tel./fax: +39 040 228 436 cell.: +39 348 7355 225 http://www.kozina.com/ e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] begin:vcard fn:Dejan Kozina n:Kozina;Dejan org:Dejan Kozina Web Design Studio adr:;;Dolina 346;Dolina;TS;I-34018;Italy email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;work:+39 348 7355 225 tel;fax:+39 040 228 436 tel;home:+39 040 228 436 tel;cell:+39 348 7355 225 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.kozina.com/ version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [WSG] Images in Nav, Splash Screens.
Jonathan T. Sage wrote: hear hear! take a look at google with a term like '3 click rule'. Use a splash screen, and you've limited yourself to delivering your product in 2 clicks. that's a challange. Not to mention, if you use something fancy like flash for the splash screen, 9 times out of 10, I'm already done. although your reasoning is sensible in this case, I'd nonetheless like to point out that the '3 click rule' is one of those usability 'commandments' which is all too often used as if it was cast in stone...but it's not. It obviously depends on the specific site structure. Applying it indiscriminately is a bad thing, and would result - in complex sites - with a limited, squashed and sub-optimal site structure. Sometimes it does take 4, 5 or more clicks to get to the right place. The important thing is that the journey needs to be logical. See for instance http://web.archive.org/web/20040316081516/http://www.uie.com/articles/three_click_rule/ (sending you to the web archive version, as the live site seems to have some trouble getting their XSL to work properly). Same goes for the magic 7 +/- 2 rule http://www.clickz.com/experts/crm/traffic/article.php/3427631 -- Patrick H. Lauke _ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Images in Nav, Splash Screens.
I try to explain to clients (and designers...) that user always knows where he got to - people just don't type random adresses :) Site design should already have logo and corporate look'n'feel so such splash screen basically has no information on meaningful content. Visitors seeking information will get annoyed and bored by splash screen, because it is not what they came for. There is also an explanation on useit.com: http://www.useit.com/alertbox/990530_comments.html -- regards, Kornel Lesiski ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
RE: [WSG] Images in Nav, Splash Screens.
G'day 1. They want to use a full page graphic Splash Screen, which displays the brand in all its glory before the user can enter the site. My opinion: * Waste of space * Waste of bandwidth (at the server and user's end) * Annoying. I don't have stats on it, but know many people who get annoyed by them (myself included). If there's a click-through and I'm still interested after the annoyance, I click on it immediately. If not, I leave. Here's some links you might show the client: http://www.websiteoptimization.com/speed/tweak/splash/ concludes: Splash pages can backfire with users. Rather than enticing them to explore further you repel them clicking and screaming. Splash pages decrease performance, credibility, traffic, and search engine rankings. Bailout rates up to 71% have been reported with some splash pages. If you must use a splash page, make sure it loads quickly, provides bypass links and keywords, and optionally uses cookies to display it just once. http://www.webpagesthatsuck.com/amazon.html Would Amazon.com use that design element on its site? 2. They want to use images in the Navigation bar to give tight control over the fonts, instead of text. * They have no control over me turning the images off * The site will take longer to load * Poor eyesight? Can't read the buttons? Can't increase the text size, so I leave They talk about old school. Using images for links, just to show a fancy font, is about as old school as it gets. I can't remember the last site I did this on - must be years ago. Regards -- Bert Doorn, Web Developer Better Web Design http://www.betterwebdesign.com.au/ Fast-loading, user-friendly websites ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Images in Nav, Splash Screens.
Patrick - On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 08:41:27 +, Patrick H. Lauke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jonathan T. Sage wrote: hear hear! take a look at google with a term like '3 click rule'. Use a splash screen, and you've limited yourself to delivering your product in 2 clicks. that's a challange. Not to mention, if you use something fancy like flash for the splash screen, 9 times out of 10, I'm already done. although your reasoning is sensible in this case, I'd nonetheless like to point out that the '3 click rule' is one of those usability 'commandments' which is all too often used as if it was cast in stone...but it's not. It obviously depends on the specific site structure. Applying it indiscriminately is a bad thing, and would result - in complex sites - with a limited, squashed and sub-optimal site structure. Sometimes it does take 4, 5 or more clicks to get to the right place. The important thing is that the journey needs to be logical. Absolutly. I think even more important is the 1 click rule. For instance, if I come in from a search engine looking for specific information, and I don't find it on that page (or even if it's buried because the page is way too text-heay), I'm done. Logical layout always wins out. That said, by the time I move past the splash screen, I'm already getting punchy and ready to throw in the towel. The hit after the splash has to be pretty amazing to get me interested again. -- Jonathan T. Sage Theatrical Lighting / Set Designer Professional Web Design [HTTP://www.JTSage.com] [HTTP://design.JTSage.com] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Images in Nav, Splash Screens.
I guess this one wins the gold medal: http://www.italdenim.com. Bert Doorn wrote: Bailout rates up to 71% have been reported with some splash pages. -- Dejan Kozina Web Design Studio Dolina 346 (TS) I-34018 Trst/Trieste - Italy tel./fax: +39 040 228 436 cell.: +39 348 7355 225 http://www.kozina.com/ e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] begin:vcard fn:Dejan Kozina n:Kozina;Dejan org:Dejan Kozina Web Design Studio adr:;;Dolina 346;Dolina;TS;I-34018;Italy email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] tel;work:+39 348 7355 225 tel;fax:+39 040 228 436 tel;home:+39 040 228 436 tel;cell:+39 348 7355 225 x-mozilla-html:TRUE url:http://www.kozina.com/ version:2.1 end:vcard
RE: [WSG] Images in Nav, Splash Screens.
and I thought the wait would be worth it! ohh, that's just lovely ! what a waste of 2 minutes of my life ! -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Dejan Kozina Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2004 06:19 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] Images in Nav, Splash Screens. I guess this one wins the gold medal: http://www.italdenim.com. Bert Doorn wrote: Bailout rates up to 71% have been reported with some splash pages. -- Dejan Kozina Web Design Studio Dolina 346 (TS) I-34018 Trst/Trieste - Italy tel./fax: +39 040 228 436 cell.: +39 348 7355 225 http://www.kozina.com/ e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Images in Nav, Splash Screens.
Yep, I think it breaks all the rules alright. Don't show Nielsen, he might have a stroke. Yikes! On 1/12/04 6:19 pm, Dejan Kozina [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess this one wins the gold medal: http://www.italdenim.com. Bert Doorn wrote: Bailout rates up to 71% have been reported with some splash pages. ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Images in Nav, Splash Screens.
I've heard of gathering info for contact databases, but that has to be the worst implementation i've ever seen. What does that company do? I guess this one wins the gold medal: http://www.italdenim.com. Bert Doorn wrote: Bailout rates up to 71% have been reported with some splash pages. -- Dejan Kozina Web Design Studio Dolina 346 (TS) I-34018 Trst/Trieste - Italy tel./fax: +39 040 228 436 cell.: +39 348 7355 225 http://www.kozina.com/ e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Attachment converted: MacHD:dejan.vcf (TEXT/ttxt) (000436DD) -- - Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Images in Nav, Splash Screens.
Did ya sign up so you could enter? :o) On 12/1/2004 1:19:10 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I guess this one wins the gold medal: http://www.italdenim.com. Bert Doorn wrote: Bailout rates up to 71% have been reported with some splash pages. -- Dejan Kozina Web Design Studio Dolina 346 (TS) I-34018 Trst/Trieste - Italy tel./fax: +39 040 228 436 cell.: +39 348 7355 225 http://www.kozina.com/ e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Images in Nav, Splash Screens.
I've heard of gathering info for contact databases, but that has to be the worst implementation i've ever seen. What does that company do? Apparently, they gather info for contact databases. -- Ben Curtis WebSciences International http://www.websciences.org/ v: (310) 478-6648 f: (310) 235-2067 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Images in Nav, Splash Screens.
Ha! I bet they're not gathering much! I've heard of gathering info for contact databases, but that has to be the worst implementation i've ever seen. What does that company do? Apparently, they gather info for contact databases. -- Ben Curtis WebSciences International http://www.websciences.org/ v: (310) 478-6648 f: (310) 235-2067 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- - Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Images in Nav, Splash Screens.
and as a side note - if you (royal you, not directed to anybody in particular on this list) are ever going to use a 'loading' graphic... for the love of everything right, let 100% mean it. The bars that start over hurt my soul... ~j On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:46:19 -0500, Tom Livingston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ha! I bet they're not gathering much! I've heard of gathering info for contact databases, but that has to be the worst implementation i've ever seen. What does that company do? Apparently, they gather info for contact databases. -- Ben Curtis WebSciences International http://www.websciences.org/ v: (310) 478-6648 f: (310) 235-2067 ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- - Tom Livingston Senior Multimedia Artist mlinc.com ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** -- Jonathan T. Sage Theatrical Lighting / Set Designer Professional Web Design [HTTP://www.JTSage.com] [HTTP://design.JTSage.com] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Images in Nav, Splash Screens.
Matt - On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 15:23:49 +1100, Matt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am setting up a sports website for a client, where all of the content is in Article format which rotates regularly - essentially a news type site. I am determined to build the site in valid XHTML/CSS. excellent! I do not want to use a splash screen, because it will just get in the way, and could turn viewers away. hear hear! take a look at google with a term like '3 click rule'. Use a splash screen, and you've limited yourself to delivering your product in 2 clicks. that's a challange. Not to mention, if you use something fancy like flash for the splash screen, 9 times out of 10, I'm already done. I do not want to use images in the navigation, not only for usability / accessibility / SEO reasons, but because the site is dynamic and I want the Nav to be dynamically driven. a valid argument. Perhaps doing some general surfing and giving them research examples could help? Show them how nice your method can look, how effective it can be? Also, there are too many articles to count covering the topic of how web publishing is drastically different from print publishing. Maybe a selection of them from the big hitters (CNN/tech, O'Reiley, etc.) would help your case? hope this is of some use ~j -- Jonathan T. Sage Theatrical Lighting / Set Designer Professional Web Design [HTTP://www.JTSage.com] [HTTP://design.JTSage.com] [EMAIL PROTECTED] ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
Re: [WSG] Images in Nav, Splash Screens.
Use Andy King's article at http://www.websiteoptimization.com/speed/tweak/splash/ he definitely isnt old school In the end however, they may ignore you. Thats their choice. As long as you've stated your objections in documentation they can't blame you later when the problems you predict appear Neerav Bhatt http://www.bhatt.id.au Web Development IT consultancy http://www.bhatt.id.au/blog/ - Ramblings Thoughts http://www.bhatt.id.au/photos/ http://www.bookcrossing.com/mybookshelf/neerav Matt wrote: Hi Everyone, I am setting up a sports website for a client, where all of the content is in Article format which rotates regularly - essentially a news type site. I am determined to build the site in valid XHTML/CSS. I am debating with their designers about 2 things: 1. They want to use a full page graphic Splash Screen, which displays the brand in all its glory before the user can enter the site. 2. They want to use images in the Navigation bar to give tight control over the fonts, instead of text. I do not want to use a splash screen, because it will just get in the way, and could turn viewers away. I do not want to use images in the navigation, not only for usability / accessibility / SEO reasons, but because the site is dynamic and I want the Nav to be dynamically driven. I just wondered if any of you know of any websites which show solid convincing arguments against these things, so that I can prove my point. At this stage the accessibility argument isn't cutting it (enough)!... I can show them some stuff from Jacob Nielsen, but I found that they essentially scoff at his comments claiming that he is too 'old school'... Also, if anyone can assist with my message from yesterday (Nov 30) subject Help with a layout I'd be very grateful : ) Thanks in advance, Matt ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help ** ** The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help **
