RE: [WSG] SMH launch
sorry, bit late, re my question of any ideasof a way to make these browsers keep the background image aligned hard left and not adversly affect anything else? (on http://smh.com.au/) and Justins alternative ideas: Alternative #1"attach the background image to something other than the body (like #wrap)"i wouldve - but the layout that we settled on has the left and right columns "position:absolute" for a few other reasons so when the left or right cols are longer than the centre column, the background doesnt tile all the way to the bottom of the page. tried various methods of adding a height to the #wrap but all options seemed to have a 'gotcha' :) (a bad side effect) Alternative #2"perhaps the line effect you're trying to achieve can be done some other way, negating the need for the image at all"for reasons related to the above absolutely positioned columns, a background image was the only way to go Alternative #3"Ignore what's happening, and put a solid white background behind that left nav bar, so that when the BG image goes under, it doesn't obstruct the navigation."bingo. actually made this change last thurs after yr email made the bg the same colour as the nav (light grey - actually, get this, its #F2F2F2, as in,F2 is where i work :)that degrades much better for opera and mac ie now. thanks again Justin. thats 2 for 2 ;-)cheers,petePeter OtteryHead of Designf2 Network(02) 8596 4450[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.f2.com.au On 29/04/2004, at 1:27 PM, Peter Ottery wrote: when we launched theage.com.au last week Justin pointed outa way (adding 1px padding to the left of the main "#wrap" div) to make Firefox keep the background image aligned hard left with the content when your browser window was narrower than the content - and stopped the background image becoming mis-aligned with the content. Even tho that fixed it in Firefox the problem still exists in Opera and mac ie. Heres a screenshot of the new smh site with a browser window set narrower than the content (note the body bg mis-aligned with the left nav): http://www.c41.com.au/test/opera7_2_squished.jpg any ideasof a way to make these browsers keep the background image aligned hard left and not adversly affect anything else? pete
Re: [WSG] SMH launch
Hey there Peter, everyone here at my office has had the day in their calendar to check out the redesign. Now thatthe redesign hasshipped and you can now get your life back... I'd love to hear (if you have time) about the process involved in the redesign. There was a report from Forrester last year thata large percentageof redesigns make things worse and they cited Macromedia's first iteration as an example. They then went on to praise the second redesign - http://www.macromedia.com/homepage/forrester.pdf From a process point of view, I'd love to know how you approached such ahuge project. ~ How you identified a redesign was necessary ~ How you got buy-in from the key stakeholders that a redesign was necessary ~ What were the traget areas you wanted to improve and update ~ What kind of useability // surveys // focus groups // lab // eye tracking testing you did ~ How you migrated the templates (you guys use Fatwire as the backend yeah?) ~ How you went about browser testing and what browsers you promised the stakeholders you would test for ~ How rigourous was your test plan ~ How many releases and iterations you diddo before final release ~ What have been the anectdotal responses from users ~ What are the measureable benefits from the redesign mmm - so many questions - so little time. I'm sure you're going to have a busy couple of weeks so I will understand if you ignore such a long list of sticky-beak questions... I would. Personally - I love the redesign. A bienetot, Benvolio - Original Message - From: James Gollan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 7:02 AM Subject: [WSG] SMH launch Hey why has the SMH site gone haywire in IE6? Only kidding peter looks great. That was the big one! Well done again James
Re: [WSG] SMH launch
Remember, for Sydney members, Peter will be doing a detailed presentation at our next meeting and notes will be available afterwards for all members: http://webstandardsgroup.org/go/event10.cfm It might be a bit too long to wait for some more immediate answers :) Russ Hey there Peter, everyone here at my office has had the day in their calendar to check out the redesign. Now that the redesign has shipped and you can now get your life back... I'd love to hear (if you have time) about the process involved in the redesign. There was a report from Forrester last year that a large percentage of redesigns make things worse and they cited Macromedia's first iteration as an example. They then went on to praise the second redesign - http://www.macromedia.com/homepage/forrester.pdf From a process point of view, I'd love to know how you approached such a huge project. ~ How you identified a redesign was necessary ~ How you got buy-in from the key stakeholders that a redesign was necessary ~ What were the traget areas you wanted to improve and update ~ What kind of useability // surveys // focus groups // lab // eye tracking testing you did ~ How you migrated the templates (you guys use Fatwire as the backend yeah?) ~ How you went about browser testing and what browsers you promised the stakeholders you would test for ~ How rigourous was your test plan ~ How many releases and iterations you did do before final release ~ What have been the anectdotal responses from users ~ What are the measureable benefits from the redesign mmm - so many questions - so little time. I'm sure you're going to have a busy couple of weeks so I will understand if you ignore such a long list of sticky-beak questions... I would. Personally - I love the redesign. A bienetot, Benvolio * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] SMH launch
en these though were basically a continuous cycle of updates and improvements. We don't really work in a "release v0.7" fashion. I've been on off the project since the middle of January though if that gives an idea of the background in lead up to a final release. ~ What have been the anecdotal responses from users as mentioned when the age launched, we have a script that loads a wider layout if you have a browser wide enough to display it. essentially a 800x600 layout a 1024x768 layout.when we launched the age.com.au we had this script set to load the 1024 layout when you browser was at least that wide. we had a decent amount of feedback from users saying they preferred the old "wider"design. We changed the script so that the 1024 layout kicks in when your browser is about 830 wide (and thus gives a horiz scrollbar) so that the user knows there is awider layout available. I don't necessarily agree with this approach, I personally thought the initial width detection was the way to go, but since we made that change the amount of bad feedback dropped dramatically - so we've kept that for the smh launch. there's been some lovely praise specifically on the css/xhtml aspect there's been no emails from IE4 or NS4 (or other browsers that don't support css 2 well) users as far as I know there's been some feedback from people saying they specifically don't like fixed width layouts, but then others that think its great. all in all - very little feedback to be honest (which is great). a couple of hundred emails is not much when there's a couple of hundred thousand people a day looking at the pages :) ~ What are the measurable benefits from the redesign bandwidth savings: initial stats put the age smh saving 22%+ on bandwidth solely because of the xhtml/css switch. this will translate into major money savings. advertising opportunities: in the longer term we hope that advertising opportunities will become more attractive for clients due to faster pages/more frequent visitors. so gains in revenue will be partly attributed to the redesign. higher traffic: this one kinda goes hand in hand with the above, but hopefully faster site = happier users = more traffic = more attractive advertising opportunities. phew. I need a blog... ;-) as Russ mentioned, keen to catch up for the WSG sydney meeting on june 10 cheers, pete Peter OtteryHead of Designf2 Network(02) 8596 4450[EMAIL PROTECTED]www.f2.com.au -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]On Behalf Of Ben WebsterSent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 7:55 AMTo: [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: [WSG] SMH launch Hey there Peter, everyone here at my office has had the day in their calendar to check out the redesign. Now thatthe redesign hasshipped and you can now get your life back... I'd love to hear (if you have time) about the process involved in the redesign. There was a report from Forrester last year thata large percentageof redesigns make things worse and they cited Macromedia's first iteration as an example. They then went on to praise the second redesign - http://www.macromedia.com/homepage/forrester.pdf From a process point of view, I'd love to know how you approached such ahuge project. ~ How you identified a redesign was necessary ~ How you got buy-in from the key stakeholders that a redesign was necessary ~ What were the traget areas you wanted to improve and update ~ What kind of useability // surveys // focus groups // lab // eye tracking testing you did ~ How you migrated the templates (you guys use Fatwire as the backend yeah?) ~ How you went about browser testing and what browsers you promised the stakeholders you would test for ~ How rigourous was your test plan ~ How many releases and iterations you diddo before final release ~ What have been the anectdotal responses from users ~ What are the measureable benefits from the redesign mmm - so many questions - so little time. I'm sure you're going to have a busy couple of weeks so I will understand if you ignore such a long list of sticky-beak questions... I would. Personally - I love the redesign. A bienetot, Benvolio - Original Message - From: James Gollan To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, April 29, 2004 7:02 AM Subject: [WSG] SMH launch Hey - why has the SMH site gone haywire in IE6? Only kidding peter - looks great. That was the big one! Well done again James
RE: [WSG] SMH launch
when we launched theage.com.au last week Justin pointed outa way (adding 1px padding to the left of the main "#wrap" div) to make Firefox keep the background image aligned hard left with the content when your browser window was narrower than the content - and stopped the background image becoming mis-aligned with the content. Even tho that fixed it in Firefox the problem still exists in Opera and mac ie. Heres a screenshot of the new smh site with a browser window set narrower than the content (note the body bg mis-aligned with the left nav): http://www.c41.com.au/test/opera7_2_squished.jpg any ideasof a way to make these browsers keep the background image aligned hard left and not adversly affect anything else? pete
Re: [WSG] SMH launch
Peter, Here we go again :) Alternative #1 My guess is that you need to attach the background image to something other than the body (like #wrap)... my theory being that if #wrap can't disappear off the left of the window, then neither can it's background :) Alternative #2 I can't see any major use for the BG image at all... perhaps the line effect you're trying to achieve can be done some other way, negating the need for the image at all. It's a bit hard to tell what's what without spending a bit of time studying the CSS. Alternative #3 Ignore what's happening, and put a solid white background behind that left nav bar, so that when the BG image goes under, it doesn't obstruct the navigation. I'd consider this graceful degradation considering your % of Opera visitors. On 29/04/2004, at 1:27 PM, Peter Ottery wrote: when we launched theage.com.au last week Justin pointed out a way (adding 1px padding to the left of the main #wrap div) to make Firefox keep the background image aligned hard left with the content when your browser window was narrower than the content - and stopped the background image becoming mis-aligned with the content. Even tho that fixed it in Firefox the problem still exists in Opera and mac ie. Heres a screenshot of the new smh site with a browser window set narrower than the content (note the body bg mis-aligned with the left nav): http://www.c41.com.au/test/opera7_2_squished.jpg any ideas of a way to make these browsers keep the background image aligned hard left and not adversly affect anything else? pete --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
RE: [WSG] SMH launch
Pete, I just check with Opera and everything looks fine. Im running windows xp pro. John McDougald Jazz Alley XG Midis -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Peter Ottery Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 8:28 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: RE: [WSG] SMH launch when we launched theage.com.au last week Justin pointed outa way (adding 1px padding to the left of the main #wrap div) to make Firefox keep the background image aligned hard left with the content when your browser window was narrower than the content - and stopped the background image becoming mis-aligned with the content. Even tho that fixed it in Firefox the problem still exists in Opera and mac ie. Heres a screenshot of the new smh site with a browser window set narrower than the content (note the body bg mis-aligned with the left nav): http://www.c41.com.au/test/opera7_2_squished.jpg any ideasof a way to make these browsers keep the background image aligned hard left and not adversly affect anything else? pete
RE: [WSG] SMH launch
Hi everyone, new to the group :) I'm still learning CSS, but if I'm correct you would be able to apply a border-bottom selector to the h3 element since headings are block elements. That would get rid of the need to have a background in #wrap at all. (please let me know if I'm wrong) Gabriel -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Justin French Sent: Wednesday, April 28, 2004 11:55 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [WSG] SMH launch Peter, Here we go again :) Alternative #1 My guess is that you need to attach the background image to something other than the body (like #wrap)... my theory being that if #wrap can't disappear off the left of the window, then neither can it's background :) Alternative #2 I can't see any major use for the BG image at all... perhaps the line effect you're trying to achieve can be done some other way, negating the need for the image at all. It's a bit hard to tell what's what without spending a bit of time studying the CSS. Alternative #3 Ignore what's happening, and put a solid white background behind that left nav bar, so that when the BG image goes under, it doesn't obstruct the navigation. I'd consider this graceful degradation considering your % of Opera visitors. On 29/04/2004, at 1:27 PM, Peter Ottery wrote: when we launched theage.com.au last week Justin pointed out a way (adding 1px padding to the left of the main #wrap div) to make Firefox keep the background image aligned hard left with the content when your browser window was narrower than the content - and stopped the background image becoming mis-aligned with the content. Even tho that fixed it in Firefox the problem still exists in Opera and mac ie. Heres a screenshot of the new smh site with a browser window set narrower than the content (note the body bg mis-aligned with the left nav): http://www.c41.com.au/test/opera7_2_squished.jpg any ideas of a way to make these browsers keep the background image aligned hard left and not adversly affect anything else? pete --- Justin French http://indent.com.au * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help * * The discussion list for http://webstandardsgroup.org/ See http://webstandardsgroup.org/mail/guidelines.cfm for some hints on posting to the list getting help *
