Re: [Xastir] System cost options
--- Tom Russo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Tue, Jun 26, 2007 at 09:06:18PM -0500, we > recorded a bogon-computron collision of the > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing: > > Thanks for the suggestion. > > I noted in the MicroTrak 300 manual, > "...power output in the range of > > 300 mW, and is capable of operating at extremely > long ranges ...". My > > understanding of the problem with Garmin Rinos > was that they were low power > > -- 1W or 5W -- meaning that the transmission > distance was too short to be of > > much use. > > Is this an apples and oranges issue? What am I > missing? (And please feel > > free to point out my misunderstandings I am > VERY new to this .) > > That depends on the local APRS infrastructure and > how it's loaded. That 300mW > might be enough to hit a digipeater if your terrain > is right and your > infrastructure is built up enough. Once it gets > digipeated, the power of the > original tracker is less important. There is no > infrastructure you can > leverage with a Rino, and it's strictly > line-of-sight between tracker and > receiver. > Don't forget also that a combination FRS/GMRS device like a Rino has a stock, low gain antenna that is not replaceable in order to maintain compliance with the FCC rules governing FRS. So the MicroTrak wins because it's got a replaceable antenna that could use something like a long whip or even a high gain Yagi. The D7s also have this advantage over the Rinos. Take the Internet to Go: Yahoo!Go puts the Internet in your pocket: mail, news, photos & more. http://mobile.yahoo.com/go?refer=1GNXIC ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Message Groups
On Tue, Jun 26, 2007 at 11:27:19PM -0400, we recorded a bogon-computron collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing: > Does Xastir support Message Groups? If so, where do you set them up? Per the help menu: Send Message to and Open group messages These are very similar. "Send message to" will send your messages to one station and will only receive data from that station. Group messages are more general: you can receive any message for the group and you will send out your messages to that group name. Group messages code is not fully implemented yet and various problems still need to be worked out. The "groups" file is looked for in ~/.xastir/config. This is where the groups you are a member of are stored. As was said before the "groups" functionality may not be complete yet. I've never tried using them, though. I have no idea what the "various problems" are. -- Tom RussoKM5VY SAR502 DM64ux http://www.swcp.com/~russo/ Tijeras, NM QRPL#1592 K2#398 SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM "And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" --- The Tick ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] System cost options
On Tue, Jun 26, 2007 at 09:06:18PM -0500, we recorded a bogon-computron collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing: > Thanks for the suggestion. > I noted in the MicroTrak 300 manual, "...power output in the range of > 300 mW, and is capable of operating at extremely long ranges ...". My > understanding of the problem with Garmin Rinos was that they were low power > -- 1W or 5W -- meaning that the transmission distance was too short to be of > much use. > Is this an apples and oranges issue? What am I missing? (And please feel > free to point out my misunderstandings I am VERY new to this .) That depends on the local APRS infrastructure and how it's loaded. That 300mW might be enough to hit a digipeater if your terrain is right and your infrastructure is built up enough. Once it gets digipeated, the power of the original tracker is less important. There is no infrastructure you can leverage with a Rino, and it's strictly line-of-sight between tracker and receiver. I'm pretty sure that the MicroTrak doesn't have a receiver, which means it'll transmit blind --- it won't be able to keep its mout shut when the channel's busy. This could be a significant downside, but is not necessarily bad. If you have a lot of APRS traffic in your search areas, there will be times when the flea-powered MicroTrak will transmit while other traffic is on the channel, and it won't be heard. At base, with the laptop, you need a TNC and a radio --- it needn't be a D7, and that would actually be a waste of money. A KPC3 and an HT or mobile rig would be adequate, and would be much cheaper. Where a D7 (or D700) shines is as a stand-alone unit, because it can decode APRS as well as transmit it --- so your field teams can receive APRS messages and can see position reports of other teams on their GPS screens. You don't need that at base, because you're using a computer with APRS software there, and that software would be doing all that for you anyway. If you can't afford 12 D7's, (that's a lot of green), you could buy a few and deploy cheaper, less fully-featured trackers like the MicroTrak on some teams. You needn't even buy GPS units for all of them, as you can set yourself up to use the personal GPS units of your field teams with the APRS tracker --- it can still be used even while wired up to the tracker. The D7 is merely a convenient, relatively rugged, and easily set-up unit. You pay for that convenience. Remember, too, that you needn't get the entire system running at once, and you can mix and match true APRS trackers with Rinos. Getting a usable small set-up as a proof of principle, and getting familiar with using it might be a way of encouraging more donations or grant money. The Rino is pretty limited, and you pay for the limitations, too. But even with a full APRS set-up, you can always add Rinos to the mix, too --- Xastir can be used with both simultaneously, so long as you have a suitable Rino in base that can poll the Rinos in the field. Your options for building out a system are pretty wide open. If you want a consistent, stable, and very usable system you can go the pricey route with every team having a D7, but if you're limited on cash, you can set up a more varied kit of equipment to get the job done. > Richard Polivka, N6NKO wrote: > > Another possibility is to look at Byonics.com. They make units that work > > great for APRS trackers. -- Tom RussoKM5VY SAR502 DM64ux http://www.swcp.com/~russo/ Tijeras, NM QRPL#1592 K2#398 SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM "And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" --- The Tick ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
[Xastir] Message Groups
Does Xastir support Message Groups? If so, where do you set them up? -- William McKeehan KI4HDU ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] System cost options
Thanks for the suggestion. I noted in the MicroTrak 300 manual, "...power output in the range of 300 mW, and is capable of operating at extremely long ranges ...". My understanding of the problem with Garmin Rinos was that they were low power -- 1W or 5W -- meaning that the transmission distance was too short to be of much use. Is this an apples and oranges issue? What am I missing? (And please feel free to point out my misunderstandings I am VERY new to this .) Many thanx. jt Richard Polivka, N6NKO wrote: Another possibility is to look at Byonics.com. They make units that work great for APRS trackers. They may be a possibility. 73 from 807, Richard, N6NKO [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] System cost options
Another possibility is to look at Byonics.com. They make units that work great for APRS trackers. They may be a possibility. 73 from 807, Richard, N6NKO Jim Tolbert wrote: Thank you very much to Curt, Jason, Tom, & Gerry for the comments. So if I were to go with APRS/ Xastir /Linux.. It appears that I can download Linux and I have a laptop available. I can download Xastir. So the costs for each field searcher will be will be $500 ( Kenwood D7A ($350) plus a mapping GPS (Etrex Summit ($150)). Then do I need the same for the laptop or only the Kenwood D7A or something else? For 4 teams(two units per team -- one at each end) plus a dog plus two mounted searchers plus the laptop, I will need 12 sets or $6,000. For Garmin Rino 110 (5 mile GMRS) I would have 12 @ $150 = $1800. For Garmin Rino 520 (14 mile GMRS) I would have 12 @ $360 = $4320. Are there other options that should be considered with a cost between high & low? I am pretty sure we do not have the ability to homebrew equipment, so unless they are VERY straightforward, I think kits are out. I don't know if this has any impact on the situation, but we have huge holes in our cellular coverage and our radio infrastructure is dated and heavily loaded also with holes in the reception. Is the general consensus that I should wait until we can afford the Kenwood / GPS unit system or go now with one of the Rino options. I don't know what is available as far as funds.. I am just trying to get a good picture of the impact of the choices. Many thanx to all .. you have been VERY helpful. jt ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Fwd: [Xastir] System cost options
The Rino 520/530 boast 5 watts on the GMRS bands; though mine does not perform as I would expect - What I cannot tx/rx through that mountain? ;) I have also been very happy with the battery life of the stock li/ion batteries. We use ours on the dirt bikes to keep in touch with each other (and to track each other). IMO a great package! Now if only one of the HAM mfgrs would step up and give us all that the Rino offers + HAM bands + TNC... Great discussion as I am very interested in bridging HAM/Rino - though work/wife/kids get in the way of that goal most of the time ;) Greg KD7UBJ On Jun 26, 2007, at 3:59 PM, Jason Winningham wrote: On Jun 26, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Jim Tolbert wrote: Is the general consensus that I should wait until we can afford the Kenwood / GPS unit system or go now with one of the Rino options. That sort of depends on your situation: is something better than nothing? Sure the Rino FRS doesn't have the range that a 5 watt D7 has, but if that's all you can afford and you _really_ need something... Also, you don't have to do either/or. If your ICP station has an APRS rig and a Rino, xastir will happily display data from both networks, and I'm pretty sure it can relay the Rino data to the APRS network (but not vice-versa). Another con to the D7 is the poor battery that comes from the factory. Not a show stopper, but pretty disappointing. I personally would ask for money for the D7 configuration. If they give you less, go from there. With the amount of money that's hemorrhaging from Homeland Security, surely there's some dollars for emergency comms somewhere... -Jason kg4wsv ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] System cost options
On Jun 26, 2007, at 4:47 PM, Jim Tolbert wrote: Is the general consensus that I should wait until we can afford the Kenwood / GPS unit system or go now with one of the Rino options. That sort of depends on your situation: is something better than nothing? Sure the Rino FRS doesn't have the range that a 5 watt D7 has, but if that's all you can afford and you _really_ need something... Also, you don't have to do either/or. If your ICP station has an APRS rig and a Rino, xastir will happily display data from both networks, and I'm pretty sure it can relay the Rino data to the APRS network (but not vice-versa). Another con to the D7 is the poor battery that comes from the factory. Not a show stopper, but pretty disappointing. I personally would ask for money for the D7 configuration. If they give you less, go from there. With the amount of money that's hemorrhaging from Homeland Security, surely there's some dollars for emergency comms somewhere... -Jason kg4wsv ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] System cost options
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Jim Tolbert wrote: > So if I were to go with APRS/ Xastir /Linux.. It appears that I can > download Linux and I have a laptop available. I can download Xastir. Yea. Linux can be free. Xastir is free. VMPlayer is free if you want to keep Windows on the machine, but if you're running Windows there are other APRS programs available as well, for free or nearly free. See the links I'll mention later here. > So the costs for each field searcher will be will be $500 ( Kenwood D7A > ($350) plus a mapping GPS (Etrex Summit ($150)). Then do I need the > same for the laptop or only the Kenwood D7A or something else? You need a radio/antenna/TNC for the laptop but you don't need to go with the TH-D7A. It'd work fine for that use though. Other options would be the Kenwood TM-D700A mobile rig (runs off 12V directly), or if you want to go cheaper, get some 2-meter mobile rig at $150 on sale new, an antenna for it, a TNC-X TNC kit, and build a cable to go between the TNC and the radio. You could also buy a Kantronics KPC-3 TNC used or a KPC-3+ TNC new and build a cable from it to any 2-meter mobile radio. > For 4 teams(two units per team -- one at each end) plus a dog plus two > mounted searchers plus the laptop, I will need 12 sets or $6,000. For > Garmin Rino 110 (5 mile GMRS) I would have 12 @ $150 = $1800. For > Garmin Rino 520 (14 mile GMRS) I would have 12 @ $360 = $4320. > > Are there other options that should be considered with a cost between > high & low? I am pretty sure we do not have the ability to homebrew > equipment, so unless they are VERY straightforward, I think kits are out. Yea. Check out the link "APRS in Search and Rescue" listed on my homepage link below and read up on things. Then check out the "APRS Hardware (Wiki)" link. Then come back here and ask more questions. Also plan for at least a couple of spares for everything. Wires and equipment break or are damaged. The more pieces of equipment and wires you need to tie it all together, the more breakage will occur. Also, the TH-D7A's have some weak points: The antenna connector, the belt clip, and the waterproofing (non-existent). Take those into account. > Is the general consensus that I should wait until we can afford the > Kenwood / GPS unit system or go now with one of the Rino options. I > don't know what is available as far as funds.. I am just trying to > get a good picture of the impact of the choices. I think I'd avoid the Rino option, as it limits you in several ways, not the least of which is the Xastir/GPSMan combo to tie it all together. I prefer systems that allow more options/upgrades in the future. -- Curt, WE7U. APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer "Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown "Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U "The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
[Xastir] System cost options
Thank you very much to Curt, Jason, Tom, & Gerry for the comments. So if I were to go with APRS/ Xastir /Linux.. It appears that I can download Linux and I have a laptop available. I can download Xastir. So the costs for each field searcher will be will be $500 ( Kenwood D7A ($350) plus a mapping GPS (Etrex Summit ($150)). Then do I need the same for the laptop or only the Kenwood D7A or something else? For 4 teams(two units per team -- one at each end) plus a dog plus two mounted searchers plus the laptop, I will need 12 sets or $6,000. For Garmin Rino 110 (5 mile GMRS) I would have 12 @ $150 = $1800. For Garmin Rino 520 (14 mile GMRS) I would have 12 @ $360 = $4320. Are there other options that should be considered with a cost between high & low? I am pretty sure we do not have the ability to homebrew equipment, so unless they are VERY straightforward, I think kits are out. I don't know if this has any impact on the situation, but we have huge holes in our cellular coverage and our radio infrastructure is dated and heavily loaded also with holes in the reception. Is the general consensus that I should wait until we can afford the Kenwood / GPS unit system or go now with one of the Rino options. I don't know what is available as far as funds.. I am just trying to get a good picture of the impact of the choices. Many thanx to all .. you have been VERY helpful. jt -- Jim Tolbert EMT-B [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
RE: [Xastir] Xastir on rugged/small devices
I know they aren't considered overly small... but I just ordered one of the old Fujistu Tablet PCs off ebay (they have TONS of them) and it was reasonably priced. Full blown PC with a P3-933mhz mobile CPU with a 10.4" touch screen display; about 1" thick and 3.3lbs. Wireless keyboard support as well so not tethered, 2 USB ports and built in Wifi (not sure if miniPCI or not.) Hope to try loading Linux on it with Xastir connection to either by D7A or D700 for in car operations. However it would be really interesting to see it working on the Nokia N800 units. -Mike KB1MTS ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Newbee question re: Garmin Rino / Cygwin / Xastir and SAR
Tom Russo wrote: On Tue, Jun 26, 2007 at 11:16:50AM -0700, we recorded a bogon-computron collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing: On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Jim Tolbert wrote: I have a 3 year old laptop (Windows XP) that I could dedicate to this. I have to wipe the disk anyway. What Linux do I want? Do I reformat the disk before installing Linux? What do I do about various device drivers? You'll get various votes on the different Linuxes. I personally use OpenSuSE, and develop/use Xastir with it. Other developers and users have differing opinions. One of our developers is running FreeBSD. But that developer (me) wouldn't recommend FreeBSD for anyone other than hardcore Unix geeks. It's better for server systems than desktops (in my current opinion after over 15 years of using it), and not well suited for a first non-windows system. I recommend one of the Ubuntu systems for sheer ease of install and use, especially for folks new to Linux. It is a solid desktop (or laptop) environment with good support. If it's older hardware, you probably don't need special device drivers, except maybe if you want hardware accelerated 3D graphics (which you don't need for xastir). And these days, I prefer CentOS as it's stable, costs about the right price and pretty reliable. Down-side is in some of the libs we need for Xastir (but most are fine) may require compiling from scratch instead of RPM install, or finding non-vetted replacements from things like the dag repository. As for stable desktops, I've been well pleased. gerry -- Gerry Creager -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Texas Mesonet -- AATLT, Texas A&M University Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.458.4020 FAX: 979.862.3983 Office: 1700 Research Parkway Ste 160, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843 ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Newbee question re: Garmin Rino / Cygwin / Xastir and SAR
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Tom Russo wrote: > But that developer (me) wouldn't recommend FreeBSD for anyone other than > hardcore Unix geeks. It's better for server systems than desktops (in my > current opinion after over 15 years of using it), and not well suited for > a first non-windows system. I've used SLS, Slackware, Redhat (before Fedora existed), SuSE/OpenSuSE, and RHEL. Of those few I'd probably only recommend SuSE/OpenSuSE. > I recommend one of the Ubuntu systems for sheer ease of install and use, > especially for folks new to Linux. It is a solid desktop (or laptop) > environment with good support. I haven't used Ubuntu or Kubuntu, but Ubuntu is what Dell is now offering as an option to Windows, which means it must be pretty good. Kubuntu is Ubuntu but with the KDE desktop instead of Gnome. Both are based off of the Debian Linux distribution. -- Curt, WE7U. APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer "Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown "Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U "The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Newbee question re: Garmin Rino / Cygwin / Xastir and SAR
On Tue, Jun 26, 2007 at 11:16:50AM -0700, we recorded a bogon-computron collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing: > On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Jim Tolbert wrote: > > > I have a 3 year old laptop (Windows XP) that I could dedicate to > > this. I have to wipe the disk anyway. What Linux do I want? Do I > > reformat the disk before installing Linux? What do I do about > > various device drivers? > > You'll get various votes on the different Linuxes. I personally use > OpenSuSE, and develop/use Xastir with it. Other developers and > users have differing opinions. One of our developers is running > FreeBSD. But that developer (me) wouldn't recommend FreeBSD for anyone other than hardcore Unix geeks. It's better for server systems than desktops (in my current opinion after over 15 years of using it), and not well suited for a first non-windows system. I recommend one of the Ubuntu systems for sheer ease of install and use, especially for folks new to Linux. It is a solid desktop (or laptop) environment with good support. If it's older hardware, you probably don't need special device drivers, except maybe if you want hardware accelerated 3D graphics (which you don't need for xastir). -- Tom RussoKM5VY SAR502 DM64ux http://www.swcp.com/~russo/ Tijeras, NM QRPL#1592 K2#398 SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM "And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" --- The Tick ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Newbee question re: Garmin Rino / Cygwin / Xastir and SAR
On Tue, Jun 26, 2007 at 09:53:19AM -0700, we recorded a bogon-computron collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing: > On Mon, 25 Jun 2007, Jim Tolbert wrote: > > > From a laptop at a ground search incident command, I would like to > > track, and plot the tracks of, up to 20 GPS units on ground searchers. > > It seems from what I have read that the Garmin Rino units with Xastir & > > GPSman will do this. > > > > I have downloaded Cygwin & Xastir and can successfully run Xastir on my > > Windows XP laptop. I am NOT a programmer and have done this only by > > following a recipe in the help files. > > I wouldn't suggest running Xastir under Cygwin for SAR purposes. > I'd suggest either switching to Linux as the base OS (highest > reliability), or else go with VMWare Player running Linux/Xastir > inside it. I'm not sure whether the GPSMan stuff will work under > either system though. I've only used GPSMan under Linux. Since it's just Tcl/Tk, GPSMan works well enough for Rino, I think -- Isn't Wes using it that way? GPSManshp (for GPS track downloads) does not work on Cygwin. It is a shared library, and that isn't working. Xastir under vmware is Xastir under linux, so yes, GPSman works there. I agree with Curt's other points. I wouldn't waste your money on Rinos --- go with real APRS units instead for range and full functionality. If you have cash to burn, Kenwood D7A's are the tool of choice as out-of-the-box capable. If you have energy and skill enough to build ruggedized packages for trackers, then you can get away cheaper than the Rino, but I've found that it takes some planning to get a reliable tracker built with the minimum number of dongles and wires to get busted on a SAR mission. Tracker2 is still only in beta, so while I'd love to dive into trying that, it's not at the stage where I'd be comfortable deploying them just yet. The NM SAR Support team has built some trackers out of TinyTrackII's (they're old) and some small Icom handhelds, and I've built one with a TTII in the AA battery pack of an ADI AT-201 that works pretty well. As soon as Tracker2 is in production I'll probably rebuild that one with a T2 instead. -- Tom Russo, New Mexico State Police SAR field coordinator SAR 502, New Mexico Search and Rescue Support Team, Cibola SAR and Albuquerque Mountain Rescue Council. -- Tom RussoKM5VY SAR502 DM64ux http://www.swcp.com/~russo/ Tijeras, NM QRPL#1592 K2#398 SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM "And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" --- The Tick ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Newbee question re: Garmin Rino / Cygwin / Xastir and SAR
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Jim Tolbert wrote: > I have a 3 year old laptop (Windows XP) that I could dedicate to > this. I have to wipe the disk anyway. What Linux do I want? Do I > reformat the disk before installing Linux? What do I do about > various device drivers? You'll get various votes on the different Linuxes. I personally use OpenSuSE, and develop/use Xastir with it. Other developers and users have differing opinions. One of our developers is running FreeBSD. When installing most Linux distributions they'll give you the option to take over the whole disk or install in a dual-boot configuration. If you don't want XP on there, Linux will happily take over and repartition for it's own use. > Another stupid question,.. What does the automatic polling of the > field GPS units -- Xastir or the "Digipeater" (I obviously don't know > what this is )? In this case it's Xastir telling the attached Rino to poll the others. Xastir has a timing slider for determining the interval at which to poll. Every time a Rino hears a poll packet it should respond with it's position, at which point any Rino that is within simplex range and hears it will update the position and show it on it's GPS map screen. Normally you only see the position when the Rino user manually presses his "send my position" button or whatever it is called. You can request the position of friends of yours, but I think you need to know part or all of their ID in order to do this. Can't remember the details, but with the Xastir setup you have to have "APRS" as the prefix for each callsign, then each device out there that matches will respond. A digipeater is a digital repeater. On APRS we use them on mountaintops/hilltops/buildings to extend the range greatly for mobiles/portables as they run around. We use a "flooding" protocol in the U.S. and Canada where the packet gets sent out along the digipeaters in all directions at once up to two or three hops. This gives us a few hundred mile range here in the western U.S. RINO's can't do this. You have to use Amateur Radio APRS plus have an amateur radio license to do it. -- Curt, WE7U. APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer "Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown "Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U "The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Newbee question re: Garmin Rino / Cygwin / Xastir and SAR
Thank you very much for the note! It is very helpful. Curt, WE7U wrote: On Mon, 25 Jun 2007, Jim Tolbert wrote: From a laptop at a ground search incident command, I would like to track, and plot the tracks of, up to 20 GPS units on ground searchers. It seems from what I have read that the Garmin Rino units with Xastir & GPSman will do this. I have downloaded Cygwin & Xastir and can successfully run Xastir on my Windows XP laptop. I am NOT a programmer and have done this only by following a recipe in the help files. I wouldn't suggest running Xastir under Cygwin for SAR purposes. I'd suggest either switching to Linux as the base OS (highest reliability), or else go with VMWare Player running Linux/Xastir inside it. I'm not sure whether the GPSMan stuff will work under either system though. I've only used GPSMan under Linux. I have a 3 year old laptop (Windows XP) that I could dedicate to this. I have to wipe the disk anyway. What Linux do I want? Do I reformat the disk before installing Linux? What do I do about various device drivers? * There are not many funds and I think I can have but one trip to the well. What all should be considered? Must have, should have, nice to have, Lexus version. For stuff that's in current production and would do what you need, go for Kenwood TH-D7A(G) handhelds and attach a mapping GPS. They won't do digipeating but they'll give you the most capability otherwise. Once the Tracker2's are in production I'd go that way due to the digipeating and capability to create objects on the GPS, but that'll complicate the wiring as you now have three devices (including a 2-meter radio), another cable, and a battery to integrate in. I don't think I'd go the RINO route. With APRS (as opposed to RINO) you'll need at least once ham radio licensee in order to maintain the control function, but you _don't_ need a ham radio guy to carry the setup. Another stupid question,.. What does the automatic polling of the field GPS units -- Xastir or the "Digipeater" (I obviously don't know what this is )? Many thanks .. Jim TOlbert [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Xastir on rugged/small devices- Nokia N800
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, ac7yy - Kim wrote: > Curt, I have a Treo 650 you can have if you want it. Should be worth a > beer though ! Huh? An extra one? That means I could put Linux on #2!!! Yea, that'd be worth a beer. Or five. When are you going to be at our favorite beer joint again? -- Curt, WE7U. APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer "Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown "Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U "The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Xastir on rugged/small devices- Nokia N800
Curt Wrote: > My Treo has 320x320 color, but runs PalmOS. Yea, I can boot a Linux > kernel on it, but not sure I want to play with it in that manner as > I'm using it heavily for it's Cell-phone, PDA, and MP3/OGG player > functions as it is under PalmOS5. Sure would be nice to have an > APRS program other than PocketAPRS and SmartPalm on it though... > > -- Curt, I have a Treo 650 you can have if you want it. Should be worth a beer though ! kim ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Newbee question re: Garmin Rino / Cygwin / Xastir and SAR
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Jason Winningham wrote: > > On Jun 25, 2007, at 7:25 PM, Jim Tolbert wrote: > > > Garmin Rinos within 5 miles of the search incident command would be > > a workable alternative. > > This seems pretty optimistic. I don't know about the Rinos, but in > my very limited experience with FRS radios 5mi seems to be a bit much > for them, unless one is on a mountain and has a straight shot to the > other. I would think that the data range would be even less than the > voice range. Depends on whether he's using the FRS Rinos or the GMRS Rinos. Garmin got permission to do the positioning data using the higher-power of the GMRS radios for those RINOS that have GMRS. For older GMRS-Rinos, one can do a firmware upgrade from Garmin to get the higher-powered positioning. Before that, the positioning was done at FRS power levels whether you had a GMRS Rino or not. If you want the maximum range using the Rinos, you'll need the GMRS-capable units plus a GMRS license ($75 or $80) first. As far as Xastir is concerned, it needs a Rino at it's end in order to receive from the other Rino's and to poll the other Rino's periodically for their position. You attach this Rino with a serial cable to Xastir. I'd suggest if you're doing this at search base that you remote a Rino at the top of a tall pole and run a long serial cable down into the comm vehicle to Xastir. In order to poll the other Rino units and get your maximum range out of it you'd want a GMRS-Rino at base as well. Earlier I suggested using the cheapest possible Rino at base as the receiver/polling unit, but now with the higher power output you'd want GMRS units all around if the licensing issue is not a biggie. FWIW: I'm in SAR, although not real active on missions at the moment. My current goal is to get Tracker2's out into the field, which will allow digipeating between units, plotting positions on the local GPS map screen, creating objects in the field that appear on everyone's screen, and creating objects at base that also appear on everyone's map screen. This requires a handheld GPS for each field team with a serial NMEA output/input, a Tracker2 TNC, a 2-meter handheld radio, and a battery to run the Tracker2. If this is all built into one unit (except for a cable coming out to go to the field unit's GPS), it can be carried in a pack nicely and mostly forgotten about. The entire user interface would be in the GPS device. This setup allows you to carry the APRS infrastructure with you into the field in the form of preemptive SARn-N digipeaters. Just change your outgoing path on each device to "WIDE1-1,WIDE2-1,SAR7-7", set up the Tracker2's to preemptively digipeat on SARn-N, and you're in business. I have a writeup about this on a web page if you're interested in reading more. Anyway, that's the direction I wish to head, once I get more money, time, and the Tracker2's get into production. Hopefully surface mount tracker2's for size/weight considerations. -- Curt, WE7U. APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer "Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown "Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U "The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Newbee question re: Garmin Rino / Cygwin / Xastir and SAR
On Mon, 25 Jun 2007, Jim Tolbert wrote: > From a laptop at a ground search incident command, I would like to > track, and plot the tracks of, up to 20 GPS units on ground searchers. > It seems from what I have read that the Garmin Rino units with Xastir & > GPSman will do this. > > I have downloaded Cygwin & Xastir and can successfully run Xastir on my > Windows XP laptop. I am NOT a programmer and have done this only by > following a recipe in the help files. I wouldn't suggest running Xastir under Cygwin for SAR purposes. I'd suggest either switching to Linux as the base OS (highest reliability), or else go with VMWare Player running Linux/Xastir inside it. I'm not sure whether the GPSMan stuff will work under either system though. I've only used GPSMan under Linux. > * Can anyone point me to a recipe for what to do next? Exactly what > hooks how to what, what settings are used in what, how do I make > it all work. Basically you put a Rino on a pole, hook it to Xastir with a serial cable, set up the other Rino's with a "callsign" that starts with "APRS", then Xastir will periodically poll the other Rino's for their positions and download the positions over that serial cable just like it's downloading GPS Waypoints from any regular Garmin GPS. It'll plot them on the Xastir maps. If you have an APRS TNC/Radio set up in Xastir as well, you can make it broadcast the Rino's positions as objects on the APRS frequency as well, so any APRS users (like perhaps Kenwood TH-D7A SAR people with attached GPS) will see the positions as well. The Rino users won't see the APRS users on their GPS though. Xastir will see all of them. > * Can anyone confirm that this will work? I think some money is > available to purchase the Rinos, but I have to be sure it is going > to work. Talk to Wes. I think he's the one that wanted the Rino functionality in Xastir to begin with. I expect him to weigh in on this thread shortly. > * Does the model of Garmin Rino figure into the distance that the > searchers could be from the receiver / Laptop? Are Rino 110 okay > for the searchers? Should a different unit be used at the laptop? Those are FRS radios. Very limited range. You want GMRS-capable RINO's, which will give you more range, but probably not the five miles you're after. You'll also need a GMRS license. > * I am concerned about a single county in Wisconsin. What is the > suggestion for the best source for a topo map of the county to use > with this project? For Xastir you can use USGS DRG topo maps. Perhaps someone on here has them for Wisconsin. I have them for WA. Look for a USGS DRG repository in your state, usually a university library or similar. You should be able to copy the CD's there. > * There are not many funds and I think I can have but one trip to > the well. What all should be considered? Must have, should have, > nice to have, Lexus version. For stuff that's in current production and would do what you need, go for Kenwood TH-D7A(G) handhelds and attach a mapping GPS. They won't do digipeating but they'll give you the most capability otherwise. Once the Tracker2's are in production I'd go that way due to the digipeating and capability to create objects on the GPS, but that'll complicate the wiring as you now have three devices (including a 2-meter radio), another cable, and a battery to integrate in. I don't think I'd go the RINO route. With APRS (as opposed to RINO) you'll need at least once ham radio licensee in order to maintain the control function, but you _don't_ need a ham radio guy to carry the setup. Curt, Snohomish County Volunteer SAR, WA. Also one of the Xastir developers, and the one that integrated the GPSMan/RINO functionality. -- Curt, WE7U. APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer "Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown "Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U "The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Xastir on rugged/small devices- Nokia N800
On Tue, Jun 26, 2007 at 08:59:35AM -0700, we recorded a bogon-computron collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing: > On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Tom Russo wrote: > > > Nothing for it but for us to start designing Qt into the long-overdue > > Xastir 2.0. :) > > As I recall, there's no license fee anymore for Qt on Windows if > it's a GPL'ed project either. That would limit anyone wanting to > take Xastir commercial on Windows, but that's about it. Well, not > actually limit, but require paying licensing fees for that platform > in that instance. > > Wouldn't help on the N800 though. It's Gtk+. So which would we > want to support? Gtk+ or Qt? I'd rather stick with the least > restrictive option, which I think is Gtk+. The Right Thing To Do is to separate the GUI from the main code in a clean design, so selection of a toolkit can be done in a higher level, with a good design pattern. I'm thinknig Qt is a better toolkit at this point than Gtk/Gtk+, but that's just coz that's the one I'm planning on using for my DF fixing code and I'm spending time learning it. -- Tom RussoKM5VY SAR502 DM64ux http://www.swcp.com/~russo/ Tijeras, NM QRPL#1592 K2#398 SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM "And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" --- The Tick ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Xastir on rugged/small devices- Nokia N800
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, J. Lance Cotton wrote: > Okay, so then all that needs to be done is fit Xastir in a 320x240 pixel > screen ;-) 'spose. My Treo has 320x320 color, but runs PalmOS. Yea, I can boot a Linux kernel on it, but not sure I want to play with it in that manner as I'm using it heavily for it's Cell-phone, PDA, and MP3/OGG player functions as it is under PalmOS5. Sure would be nice to have an APRS program other than PocketAPRS and SmartPalm on it though... -- Curt, WE7U. APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer "Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown "Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U "The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Xastir on rugged/small devices- Nokia N800
on 6/26/2007 11:02 AM Curt, WE7U said the following: > As far as X-Windows, I've successfully run it with 16MB. I have > some PP200 laptops that have 32MB and can run Xastir nicely. The > trick is to go through your list of running daemons and axe those > that are not really needed. Also in /etc/inittab you can reduce the > number of virtual consoles down to 2 or one which also helps. Also > run Rxvt instead of Xterm. Lot's of little tricks like that. > Anyway, it _can_ be done. Okay, so then all that needs to be done is fit Xastir in a 320x240 pixel screen ;-) -Lance -- J. Lance Cotton, KJ5O [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://kj5o.lightningflash.net Three Step Plan: 1. Take over the world. 2. Get a lot of cookies. 3. Eat the cookies. ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Xastir on rugged/small devices- Nokia N800
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, J. Lance Cotton wrote: > I have a Zaurus, too. There is an alternate ROM system for it (openzaurus) > which comes in two flavors: Qt-based and X11-based. I've only tried the > X11-based one superficially, not with xastir. > > Not sure if it's even worth it -- the model I have has 64M of RAM, and it's > split between ramdisk and working-memory. Various builds of the firmware can > change the ratio between working memory and storage, but I don't know how > well Xastir would work in such a small memory space. You're talking to the low-memory king here, in more ways than one! I started with Linux on a 386SX-20 with 2MB of ram. I had to do some serious shenanigans with one of the distributions, Slackware I think, when they started requiring 4MB of RAM to do the initial install. I managed to do it with 2. As far as X-Windows, I've successfully run it with 16MB. I have some PP200 laptops that have 32MB and can run Xastir nicely. The trick is to go through your list of running daemons and axe those that are not really needed. Also in /etc/inittab you can reduce the number of virtual consoles down to 2 or one which also helps. Also run Rxvt instead of Xterm. Lot's of little tricks like that. Anyway, it _can_ be done. -- Curt, WE7U. APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer "Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown "Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U "The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Xastir on rugged/small devices- Nokia N800
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Tom Russo wrote: > Nothing for it but for us to start designing Qt into the long-overdue > Xastir 2.0. :) As I recall, there's no license fee anymore for Qt on Windows if it's a GPL'ed project either. That would limit anyone wanting to take Xastir commercial on Windows, but that's about it. Well, not actually limit, but require paying licensing fees for that platform in that instance. Wouldn't help on the N800 though. It's Gtk+. So which would we want to support? Gtk+ or Qt? I'd rather stick with the least restrictive option, which I think is Gtk+. -- Curt, WE7U. APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer "Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown "Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U "The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Xastir on rugged/small devices- Nokia N800
on 6/26/2007 10:04 AM Curt, WE7U said the following: > I once mistakenly made the offer to someone inquiring about a Zaurus > PDA that if they bought me one I'd be inclined to port to it. It > was a nice device but the amount of time that would be required > would be excessive. I retracted my offer once I figured out the > price/effort ratio (someone was interested in taking me up on the > offer too!). I have a Zaurus, too. There is an alternate ROM system for it (openzaurus) which comes in two flavors: Qt-based and X11-based. I've only tried the X11-based one superficially, not with xastir. Not sure if it's even worth it -- the model I have has 64M of RAM, and it's split between ramdisk and working-memory. Various builds of the firmware can change the ratio between working memory and storage, but I don't know how well Xastir would work in such a small memory space. -Lance KJ5O -- J. Lance Cotton, KJ5O [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://kj5o.lightningflash.net Three Step Plan: 1. Take over the world. 2. Get a lot of cookies. 3. Eat the cookies. ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Xastir on rugged/small devices- Nokia N800
On Tue, Jun 26, 2007 at 08:04:08AM -0700, we recorded a bogon-computron collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing: > The N800 is in a similar price range to what the Zaurus was back > then, and I really like it, but I'm trying real hard not to make the > same mistake. If I had some free time and was looking for something > to do I'd probably go for it, but I haven't been in that boat for > years. Besides that, I already have a palmOne Treo 650 in my hands > that I could write for, and a small Fluke Networks touch-screen > device that runs Qtopia (Qt-based, but no X11) that I could play > with as well. Nothing for it but for us to start designing Qt into the long-overdue Xastir 2.0. :) -- Tom RussoKM5VY SAR502 DM64ux http://www.swcp.com/~russo/ Tijeras, NM QRPL#1592 K2#398 SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM "And, isn't sanity really just a one-trick pony anyway? I mean all you get is one trick, rational thinking, but when you're good and crazy, oooh, oooh, oooh, the sky is the limit!" --- The Tick ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Xastir on rugged/small devices- Nokia N800
On Tue, 26 Jun 2007, Bernard Michael Tyers wrote: > On 21/06/07, Curt, WE7U <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Now... This is not to say that Xastir couldn't be made to run on > > such devices. You'd have to compile OpenMotif or Lesstif and get > > one installed on the device, or modify the Xastir GUI to use GTk+ > > (for the Nokia N800) or Qt (several other devices including the > > Sharp Zaurus) in order to port Xastir to them. > > > ok curt. it was just a off_the_cuff_question really. > > I might have a look at what would be required.. I once mistakenly made the offer to someone inquiring about a Zaurus PDA that if they bought me one I'd be inclined to port to it. It was a nice device but the amount of time that would be required would be excessive. I retracted my offer once I figured out the price/effort ratio (someone was interested in taking me up on the offer too!). The N800 is in a similar price range to what the Zaurus was back then, and I really like it, but I'm trying real hard not to make the same mistake. If I had some free time and was looking for something to do I'd probably go for it, but I haven't been in that boat for years. Besides that, I already have a palmOne Treo 650 in my hands that I could write for, and a small Fluke Networks touch-screen device that runs Qtopia (Qt-based, but no X11) that I could play with as well. -- Curt, WE7U. APRS Client Comparisons: http://www.eskimo.com/~archer "Lotto:A tax on people who are bad at math." -- unknown "Windows: Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates." -- WE7U "The world DOES revolve around me: I picked the coordinate system!" ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Xastir on rugged/small devices- Nokia N800
On 21/06/07, Curt, WE7U <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Now... This is not to say that Xastir couldn't be made to run on such devices. You'd have to compile OpenMotif or Lesstif and get one installed on the device, or modify the Xastir GUI to use GTk+ (for the Nokia N800) or Qt (several other devices including the Sharp Zaurus) in order to port Xastir to them. ok curt. it was just a off_the_cuff_question really. I might have a look at what would be required.. thanks bernard ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
Re: [Xastir] Newbee question re: Garmin Rino / Cygwin / Xastir and SAR
On Jun 25, 2007, at 7:25 PM, Jim Tolbert wrote: Garmin Rinos within 5 miles of the search incident command would be a workable alternative. This seems pretty optimistic. I don't know about the Rinos, but in my very limited experience with FRS radios 5mi seems to be a bit much for them, unless one is on a mountain and has a straight shot to the other. I would think that the data range would be even less than the voice range. I don't know about Cygwin support for GPSman (again, haven't tried that myself), but if Cygwin doesn't work, using the virtual machine with VMware player will work. The VM is noticeably faster, in my experience, than Cygwin. As for a more optimum solution, if the units in the field don't need to track other units, a basic HT with an opentracker and GPS would do nicely. Buying new, one could put these together for probably $225 - $250 each. If the units in the field _do_ need to track the others, currently the optimum solution is the Kenwood D7 + a mapping GPS. A bonus in using the D7 is that it's a dual band radio, so it could be used for voice communications as well as data. This is a $500+ solution. There is a new Opentracker in the works that would do it cheaper, but it's not in production yet. Of course, all these ham radio solutions assume everyone is licensed and all that good stuff. Trackers can be put together on other bands, but if the county's radio infrastructure is already limited there probably isn't anything left lying around for conversion to trackers. -Jason kg4wsv ___ Xastir mailing list Xastir@xastir.org http://lists.xastir.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/xastir
