Re: [Xastir] Font troubles

[Chip Griffin]

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Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[Lee Bengston]

http://northwest.aprs2.net/rivettracker/index.php

This page is pretty cool.  One can see if any downloads via Torrent
are in progress, how many seeders there are, etc.  I took one of my
files down as a seeder and refreshed the page, and the number
decremented by one, so it definitely sees me.
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Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[Curt, WE7U]

On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, James Ewen wrote:


If you have one seeder (has the whole file), and one leecher (wants
the whole file), then that download will take a while. However, if you
have 2 leechers, they could possibly get the file as fast as a single
leecher. Once leecher #1 gets a segment from the seeder, leecher #2
can request that segment from leecher #1. As soon as anyone in the
torrent has a segment, they can start sharing it with others in the
torrent. You don't need to have the whole file before you can start
adding to the transfer capability.


So...  1000 people could get a file from one seeder at the same
speed as one person could, assuming enough extra links and bandwidth
among the 1000 people.  That's just freaky.  Cool, but freaky.
Somebody's breaking some speed laws or some physics laws somewhere,
hi hi.



So, even if you don't have all the pieces, you are still contributing
to the cause, by uploading segments that you do have to the others in
the torrent that are in need of them. It's possible to be in a
torrent, and download a whole file without ever getting a segment from
a seeder.


That's very cool.



It's really a good way to share content, but only if people
leechingmake sure they don't shut down their upload capabilities.


Roger.  I'm at 1.1 on my sharing of the most current file now.  I've
never been a seeder before, so that's a big event for me.  Your
latest image appears to be getting a workout.

--
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http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
  Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown
Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U.
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[James Ewen]

On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 8:10 AM, Curt, WE7U <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>   I guess once two people have it and are seeding it
>   changes things, but that initial first download would take forever.

Just a minor point, but it is a significant reason why torrents work so well...

If you have one seeder (has the whole file), and one leecher (wants
the whole file), then that download will take a while. However, if you
have 2 leechers, they could possibly get the file as fast as a single
leecher. Once leecher #1 gets a segment from the seeder, leecher #2
can request that segment from leecher #1. As soon as anyone in the
torrent has a segment, they can start sharing it with others in the
torrent. You don't need to have the whole file before you can start
adding to the transfer capability.

I have been in a torrent with no seeders, sharing a file for a couple
weeks, slowly getting more bits and pieces as people came and went. It
took a while, but when I finally got all the segments, I was able to
seed that file.

So, even if you don't have all the pieces, you are still contributing
to the cause, by uploading segments that you do have to the others in
the torrent that are in need of them. It's possible to be in a
torrent, and download a whole file without ever getting a segment from
a seeder.

It's really a good way to share content, but only if people
leechingmake sure they don't shut down their upload capabilities.

James
VE6SRV
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Re: [Xastir] Xastir Devel Snapshot

[Dexter N Muir]

Hi all

   Previous tries a ffew weeks ago with .tgz source had issues with
Magick, then with Motif.  Motif resolved with lesstif, Magick resolved
with Lee Bengston's variation on Tom Russo's patch in acinclude.m4,
looking for WriteImage before MagickCore.
   Now trying a CVS build, trying to get Station / Fetch Findu Trail to
work, following Curt's keystrokes (Mandriva 2008.1 here, and Konqueror),
Magick fails again - put in libgraphicsmagick1 and its dependencies
libraphicsmagick-devel and libgraphicsmagickwand.

   +++ re-do from start +++  (read some Pratchett Discworld :-)
   Ok until...

db.o: In function `alert_data_add':
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/db.c:1460: undefined reference to
`alert_build_list'
main.o: In function `UpdateTime':
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/main.c:10717: undefined reference
to `alert_expire'
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/main.c:10776: undefined reference
to `alert_redraw_on_update'
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/main.c:10781: undefined reference
to `alert_redraw_on_update'
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/main.c:10844: undefined reference
to `alert_display_request'
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/main.c:10845: undefined reference
to `alert_redraw_on_update'
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/main.c:10817: undefined reference
to `alert_on_screen'
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/main.c:10832: undefined reference
to `alert_redraw_on_update'
main.o: In function `Test':
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/main.c:21195: undefined reference
to `alert_print_list'
maps.o: In function `load_alert_maps':
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/maps.c:8231: undefined reference
to `create_wx_alert_iterator'
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/maps.c:8232: undefined reference
to `get_next_wx_alert'
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/maps.c:8332: undefined reference
to `alert_display_request'
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/maps.c:8333: undefined reference
to `alert_redraw_on_update'
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/maps.c:8258: undefined reference
to `alert_active'
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/maps.c:8323: undefined reference
to `get_next_wx_alert'
maps.o: In function `fill_in_new_alert_entries':
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/maps.c:8125: undefined reference
to `create_wx_alert_iterator'
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/maps.c:8126: undefined reference
to `get_next_wx_alert'
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/maps.c:8155: undefined reference
to `get_next_wx_alert'
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/maps.c:8155: undefined reference
to `get_next_wx_alert'
wx_gui.o: In function `wx_alert_update_list':
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/wx_gui.c:485: undefined reference
to `alert_list_count'
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/wx_gui.c:498: undefined reference
to `create_wx_alert_iterator'
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/wx_gui.c:499: undefined reference
to `get_next_wx_alert'
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/wx_gui.c:499: undefined reference
to `get_next_wx_alert'
wx_gui.o: In function `alert_comp':
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/wx_gui.c:450: undefined reference
to `alert_active'
/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src/wx_gui.c:451: undefined reference
to `alert_active'
collect2: ld returned 1 exit status
make[3]: *** [xastir] Error 1
make[3]: Leaving directory `/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src'
make[2]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
make[2]: Leaving directory `/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir/src'
make[1]: *** [all-recursive] Error 1
make[1]: Leaving directory `/home/dexy/Unzipped/xastir/xastir'
make: *** [all] Error 2
Password:  

   at which stage I exit - no sense installing from here on -
something's not working.

Where to from here?

73 de ZL2DEX


On Fri, 2008-08-01 at 15:49 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Message: 8
> Date: Sat, 02 Aug 2008 05:49:06 +1000
> From: David <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: [Xastir] Xastir Devel Snapshot
> To: Xastir - APRS client software discussion 
> Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
> Hi Alltnx Curt for the new release
> ive found the easiest and fastest way to update Xastir is to use the 
> update-xastir script in the main dir
> with Kubuntu i use Konqueror as my file manager.go to the Xastir
> dir 
> start the terminal    ./update-xastir at the prompt and sit
> back 
> and watch it workit d/l the update from Sourceforge then does the 
> configure and make asks for the su password and make install's the
> files 
> ...leaves all your settings as you origonally had them.
> too easywhile ive been typing this e-mail its been working and i
> now 
> have the latest vers of Xastir up and running
> 
> 73 David VK4BDJ
> 
> 
> Curt, WE7U wrote:
> >
> > Project: XASTIR  (xastir)
> > Package: xastir-development
> > Date   : 2008-08-01 08:00
> >
> > Project "XASTIR" ('xastir') has released the new version of package
> > 'xastir-development'. Y

Re: [Xastir] Xastir Devel Snapshot

[David]

Hi Alltnx Curt for the new release
ive found the easiest and fastest way to update Xastir is to use the 
update-xastir script in the main dir
with Kubuntu i use Konqueror as my file manager.go to the Xastir dir 
start the terminal    ./update-xastir at the prompt and sit back 
and watch it workit d/l the update from Sourceforge then does the 
configure and make asks for the su password and make install's the files 
...leaves all your settings as you origonally had them.
too easywhile ive been typing this e-mail its been working and i now 
have the latest vers of Xastir up and running


73 David VK4BDJ


Curt, WE7U wrote:


Project: XASTIR  (xastir)
Package: xastir-development
Date   : 2008-08-01 08:00

Project "XASTIR" ('xastir') has released the new version of package
'xastir-development'. You can download it from SourceForge.net by
following
this link:
 


or browse Release Notes and ChangeLog by visiting this link:




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Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[Tom Russo]

On Fri, Aug 01, 2008 at 11:12:41AM -0700, we recorded a bogon-computron 
collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
> On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Tom Russo wrote:
> 
> > Not that it matters much, but USGS dropped the 1-degree by 1-degree
> > distribution method years ago.  Doesn't mean that it's a bad way to go,
> > but it *isn't* the way USGS does it.
> >
> > Their "data partners" tend to do it by state now.
> 
> Rgr.
> 
> Are there additional restrictions now on the map data since it's
> being distributed by someone other than the USGS?  U.S. Taxpayers
> paid for it once, just wondering how many times we'll again pay for
> it.

I'm not aware of any new restrictions.

In fact, I found that buying state-wide "data bundles" from GeoCommunities
(one of the USGS "data partners") was significantly cheaper than it used to
be for a state's worth of DRGs direct from USGS (where they were $1.00 each
plus a $30 set-up fee for the order once they stopped distributing the 1-by-1
degree bundles).

-- 
Tom RussoKM5VY   SAR502   DM64ux  http://www.swcp.com/~russo/
Tijeras, NM  QRPL#1592 K2#398  SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM
 "Argue for your limitations and sure enough, they're yours."  -- R. Bach



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Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[Curt, WE7U]

On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Tom Russo wrote:


Not that it matters much, but USGS dropped the 1-degree by 1-degree
distribution method years ago.  Doesn't mean that it's a bad way to go,
but it *isn't* the way USGS does it.

Their "data partners" tend to do it by state now.


Rgr.

Are there additional restrictions now on the map data since it's
being distributed by someone other than the USGS?  U.S. Taxpayers
paid for it once, just wondering how many times we'll again pay for
it.

--
Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com
http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
  Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown
Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U.
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[Tom Russo]

On Fri, Aug 01, 2008 at 10:30:17AM -0700, we recorded a bogon-computron 
collision of the <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> flavor, containing:
> 
> >> If we did it in 1-degree by 1-degree sections the way that the USGS
> >> distributes them, this whole scheme would be much more workable.  We
> >> might be able to get some of the DRG collection groups to contribute
> >> data too 'cuz they'd be benefitting from ours.

Not that it matters much, but USGS dropped the 1-degree by 1-degree 
distribution method years ago.  Doesn't mean that it's a bad way to go,
but it *isn't* the way USGS does it.

Their "data partners" tend to do it by state now.  

-- 
Tom RussoKM5VY   SAR502   DM64ux  http://www.swcp.com/~russo/
Tijeras, NM  QRPL#1592 K2#398  SOC#236 AHTB#1 http://kevan.org/brain.cgi?DDTNM
 "Argue for your limitations and sure enough, they're yours."  -- R. Bach
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Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[Tom Hayward]

> You posted that to a public mailing list with archives.  You may
> need to change that password at some point.

I understand. That is why rather than naming the password I gave a
hint. However foolishly, I'm banking on the stupidity of pirates. If
there is a problem, it will be trivial to delete and change the
password.

>> There would be people out there with just a few of the CD's that
>> would like to contribute.  If we do it by state, as we're collecting
>> that state and growing the collection on the server the torrent
>> would change, making the distributed model less effective, right?

We don't want to change a torrent. This ruins the model, because those
who have the data can't continue to seed if the torrent changes
without redownloading.

>> If we did it in 1-degree by 1-degree sections the way that the USGS
>> distributes them, this whole scheme would be much more workable.  We
>> might be able to get some of the DRG collection groups to contribute
>> data too 'cuz they'd be benefitting from ours.
>>

Great, lets distribute by 1-degree by 1-degree sections then. On the
Wiki, we can just have a heading for each State and list the multiple
torrents that pertain to that state. That should make it simple enough
to manage and choose downloads.

> Can we do an entire tree of
> directories?

Yes. Yes, this is very useful.

> The state torrents would change as the dataset grew, but the
> 1x1-degree torrents would remain the same.

Yuck, no, don't change torrents.

> What's a good headless client for such purposes, one that can be
> used for multiple torrents?  Something that wouldn't take hours and
> hours to set up.

On northwest.aprs2.net I use rtorrent with screen. I'm very happy with
this. The keyboard controls are daunting at first, but after reading
the user guide (took about 10 min) I realized they are all very
intuitive, so I haven't had to reference the guide again.

> On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Curt, WE7U wrote:

Quit with the replies or I'll never finished this message!

Tom KD7LXL
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Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[Curt, WE7U]

On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Curt, WE7U wrote:


Oh yea, I know what else has been nagging at me but I keep
forgetting to ask:  I saw in the docs that we can name a file or a
directory when creating the torrent...  Can we do an entire tree of
directories?

Also:  If Gerry or someone were to make scripts to create the
torrents automatically, which would be very cool, -and- if torrents
can handle trees of files, there's no reason we couldn't have a set
of torrents by state and another set of torrents by 1x1-degree
slice.  The state torrents would change as the dataset grew, but the
1x1-degree torrents would remain the same.


And one more thing:  We have disk space and bandwidth available on
wetnet.net.  We should be able to participate in the torrents for
the VMWare images and for the map torrents.

What's a good headless client for such purposes, one that can be
used for multiple torrents?  Something that wouldn't take hours and
hours to set up.

--
Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com
http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
  Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown
Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U.
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[Curt, WE7U]

On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Curt, WE7U wrote:


There would be people out there with just a few of the CD's that
would like to contribute.  If we do it by state, as we're collecting
that state and growing the collection on the server the torrent
would change, making the distributed model less effective, right?

If we did it in 1-degree by 1-degree sections the way that the USGS
distributes them, this whole scheme would be much more workable.  We
might be able to get some of the DRG collection groups to contribute
data too 'cuz they'd be benefitting from ours.

My druthers are to collect just the DATA and the METADATA
directories from the CD's/DVD's.  The rest of the stuff on there is
a small amount of docs and several very old software packages for
viewing the geoTIFF files.  We should distribute only the map data.


Oh yea, I know what else has been nagging at me but I keep
forgetting to ask:  I saw in the docs that we can name a file or a
directory when creating the torrent...  Can we do an entire tree of
directories?

Also:  If Gerry or someone were to make scripts to create the
torrents automatically, which would be very cool, -and- if torrents
can handle trees of files, there's no reason we couldn't have a set
of torrents by state and another set of torrents by 1x1-degree
slice.  The state torrents would change as the dataset grew, but the
1x1-degree torrents would remain the same.

--
Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com
http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
  Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown
Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U.
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Re: [Xastir] RE:Fonts

[Curt, WE7U]

On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Steve Friis wrote:

I did as you suggested and changed all the fonts in 
~.xastir/config/xastir.cnf file to fixed. Removed all the adobe fonts. Now 
both machines work great.


Great!

The default as of last night for the STATION and SYSTEM fonts are
now "fixed".  I put out a new -devel snapshot too.

--
Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com
http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
  Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown
Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U.
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[Curt, WE7U]

On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Tom Hayward wrote:


Standard procedure is to create one .torrent per set. The reasoning
behind this is that the downloader can instruct their client which of
the files to download (with a multi-file torrent, there is nothing
stopping you from only downloading a few of the files).

With a data set as huge as "USGS topos", this might not be reasonable.
Are the maps segmented geographically? I would suggest one torrent per
state, each with geographically labeled directories (by county?) so
users could identify what they needed to download.


There would be people out there with just a few of the CD's that
would like to contribute.  If we do it by state, as we're collecting
that state and growing the collection on the server the torrent
would change, making the distributed model less effective, right?

If we did it in 1-degree by 1-degree sections the way that the USGS
distributes them, this whole scheme would be much more workable.  We
might be able to get some of the DRG collection groups to contribute
data too 'cuz they'd be benefitting from ours.

My druthers are to collect just the DATA and the METADATA
directories from the CD's/DVD's.  The rest of the stuff on there is
a small amount of docs and several very old software packages for
viewing the geoTIFF files.  We should distribute only the map data.

--
Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com
http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
  Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown
Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U.
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[Curt, WE7U]

On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Tom Hayward wrote:


you must
first upload the torrent to the tracker. To do this, use the
username "blah" and the password "blah-blah".


You posted that to a public mailing list with archives.  You may
need to change that password at some point.



Standard procedure is to create one .torrent per set. The reasoning
behind this is that the downloader can instruct their client which of
the files to download (with a multi-file torrent, there is nothing
stopping you from only downloading a few of the files).

With a data set as huge as "USGS topos", this might not be reasonable.
Are the maps segmented geographically? I would suggest one torrent per
state, each with geographically labeled directories (by county?) so
users could identify what they needed to download.


They are distributed as a one or two-CD set, which is a 1-degree by
1-degree rectangle, containing all of the 1:24k, 1:100k, and 1:250k
maps that cover that area, plus sometimes some other maps.  There
are also smaller files that go with the maps, plus other stuff on
the disk that we really don't need to distribute.  The stuff of
interest is in the DATA and METADATA directories of the CD's.

One more thing:  If someone were to come up with an auto-torrent
kind of thing for this, would we want to back up the scripts and the
torrents to another server or two as well?  That way one array going
bad or site being temporarily unavailable doesn't mean the maps are
unavailable.  I don't know how that might play in the torrent scheme
though:  It might not be workable.

--
Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com
http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
  Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown
Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U.
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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[Xastir] RE:Fonts

[Steve Friis]

Curt,

I did as you suggested and changed all the fonts in 
~.xastir/config/xastir.cnf file to fixed. Removed all the adobe fonts. 
Now both machines work great.



--
Steve Friis
Amateur Radio Call:WM5Z
Grid Locator:DM62oh, N32.31785 W196.82173
144.390, 3939KHz NMRRTN, 7195KHz Rag Chew,
APRS WM5Z-1 = Las Cruces iGate, APRS WM5Z-2 = Home,
APRS WM5Z-3 = RV, APRS WM5Z-4 = My Car
APRS WM5Z-15= WX
*
No-one can change the past, but we all influence the future.
*
We all get heavier as we get older, because there's a lot more 
information in our heads.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
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Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[Tom Hayward]

> Imagine a site with a CONUS map (to start, and thinking small; we could
> scale up) where you can use a bounding box to identify your region of
> interest or cursor to select a particular point (map).  After that selection
> you see an inventory of different maps and types of maps available, and you
> use a check-list to identify the ones you want.  The site prepares a
> separate page/Torrent stream to provide these, and the page is lightly
> persistent (days before it ages out) and indexed on a page of recent
> selections.
>
> You'd have the option of getting the data via download or Torrent at that
> point.  Simplified data delivery.
>
> I'm not sure how making delivery of all those maps via Torrent can be done
> without some form of simplified selection, but then I'm not a big Torrent
> user.  I tend to get OS distro's and kernel updates that way, at home,
> because it "just happens" and I don't have to worry much about it.  This
> doesn't make me an expert, though, as I got it working once and locked in
> the format.

This is a neat idea. I need to do the same thing with a repository of
JPEG images (from a time-lapse sequence) at work. I haven't decided
how to attack it yet. I need to distribute a collection of files, but
I don't want to create an archive (zip/tar/rar) every time a
collection is requested (mostly, because the data is in Amazon S3 and
I'd have to move it before I could create an archive). Collections are
divided by user query such as time-of-day with date bounds (i.e. every
10am shot during the month of July).

Anyway, I don't think this takes advantage of the distributed model of
BitTorrent, although you would see benefit from BT's simple
distribution of multiple files. I think everyone would want different
chunks, so every torrent the server created would only have one peer.
The index of recent selections would help here, but I'm not sure by
how much.

Tom KD7LXL
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Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[Tom Hayward]

> b) People make various maps available for download.  For instance I
>   have three DVD's containing all of the USGS topos for WA that are
>   freely distributable.  I also have a good portion of OR and a few
>   for ID/MT/HI.  I'd love for these to be "out there" for other
>   people to use.

I'm glad you suggested this. With all the BitTorrent buzz, I've been
meaning to ask if you could post these. I still haven't got up to the
UW Library to copy them myself.

> c) These same people create a torrent file out of this data, upload
>   it to the Wiki, and edit the Wiki to make that torrent link show
>   up.

Yes, just remember to add a step in the middle. Create the torrent,
upload the .torrent file to the tracker, so the tracker acknowledges
it, then post the link. Some trackers are open and don't require this
action, but this attracts pirates who who want to host copyrighted
material. To use http://northwest.aprs2.net/rivettracker/, you must
first upload the torrent to the tracker. To do this, use the username
'upload' and my callsign for the password.

> d) The first download ends up being a server/client relationship as
>   you described, but if at least a few of the people doing the
>   downloads leave their torrent client up and running, they become
>   a shared resource for the same file.  More than likely if we put
>   maps up there we'll have non-Xastir people doing downloads as
>   well, maybe even becoming additional resources to download from.

...the beauty of a distributed protocol such as BitTorrent.

> 1) Would we want to create a torrent for each file?  For each CD or
>   DVD set?

Standard procedure is to create one .torrent per set. The reasoning
behind this is that the downloader can instruct their client which of
the files to download (with a multi-file torrent, there is nothing
stopping you from only downloading a few of the files).

With a data set as huge as "USGS topos", this might not be reasonable.
Are the maps segmented geographically? I would suggest one torrent per
state, each with geographically labeled directories (by county?) so
users could identify what they needed to download.

> 3) Is the idea of distributing maps via torrent workable at all?

Yes. Lets get to work.

Tom KD7LXL
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Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[Curt, WE7U]

On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Gerry Creager wrote:


Not today, but in a week? Or does it have to be today?


Nope.



Now:  Imagine the same kind of a setup as you describe but have it
auto-create the torrent files and keep them around, plus post them
on a web site.  As maps get distributed from BIGSERVER over
torrrent, the bandwidth required would go down over time assuming
enough people became seeders.


I think you just said what I said.  or tried to say.


Ok, so hit me over the head a few more times and I might get it.

--
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http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
  Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown
Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U.
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Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[Gerry Creager]

Curt, WE7U wrote:

On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Gerry Creager wrote:

Imagine a site with a CONUS map (to start, and thinking small; we 
could scale up) where you can use a bounding box to identify your 
region of interest or cursor to select a particular point (map).  
After that selection you see an inventory of different maps and types 
of maps available, and you use a check-list to identify the ones you 
want.  The site prepares a separate page/Torrent stream to provide 
these, and the page is lightly persistent (days before it ages out) 
and indexed on a page of recent selections.


You'd have the option of getting the data via download or Torrent at 
that point.  Simplified data delivery.


In this case you don't gain any advantages of the peer-to-peer
distributed transfer.  You only gain the advantage of another method
of server->client that may be easier to use at the client end.


We've seen, in another endeavor I work around, that if one person's 
interested in a dataset, someone else is likely interested.  So, 
creating that dataset, especially if it's big/bulky and takes some time, 
should happen as few times as possible.



We'd need a server with the space for 100 DVD's worth of data for
DRG's and another 100 for DOQQ's plus space for other types of maps,
professionaly backed-up.  Also need a big pipe 'cuz non-Xastir
people will find it too.


Not today, but in a week? Or does it have to be today?


Now:  Imagine the same kind of a setup as you describe but have it
auto-create the torrent files and keep them around, plus post them
on a web site.  As maps get distributed from BIGSERVER over
torrrent, the bandwidth required would go down over time assuming
enough people became seeders.


I think you just said what I said.  or tried to say.


Of course the reality is the server would become more popular over
time, but the torrents might keep the total bandwidth used more
under control.  Less of an exponential rise anyway.


correct
--
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Texas Mesonet -- AATLT, Texas A&M University
Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.862.3982 FAX: 979.862.3983
Office: 1700 Research Parkway Ste 160, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843

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Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[Jason KG4WSV]

On Fri, Aug 1, 2008 at 9:41 AM, Curt, WE7U <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>> You'd have the option of getting the data via download or Torrent at that
>> point.  Simplified data delivery.
>
> In this case you don't gain any advantages of the peer-to-peer
> distributed transfer.

Not exactly - Gerry's selection tool and the download choices are
orthogonal issues. The real question is are there enough users
(specifically enough users seeding) to make torrents worth the
trouble?  I'm not enough of a torrent user to guess, but I do know
that my client defaulted to leech mode, and I ran that way for a long
time not knowing any better.  Now I tend to download what I need, seed
for a few days or weeks to "give back to the community", then turn it
off.

As far as the disk space goes, 200 DVDs at 5Gb each are ~= 1Tb, which
you can get in a single disk for less than $300.  Use a second 1Tb
disk as the "backup" mirror, throw in a couple of external disk boxes,
and you've got the storage on the cheap for a few hundred dollars.  As
we don't get a lot of money around here, I use such storage/backup
systems for the low intensity and/or low budget projects.  There are
more failure points than with a proper storage array, but there's an
order of magnitude or two less cost getting in the door.  Of course,
if someone has the budget for doing it right and the will to loan it,
we should by all means take them up on it. (:

-Jason
kg4wsv
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Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[John Ronan]

Excuse the top post,

I'd be happy to use Disk space(lots)/network(gigabit) from here to  
help out, actually if anyone snagged the stuff from the server over  
IPv6 it would be even better ;)


Cheers
John

On 1 Aug 2008, at 15:41, Curt, WE7U wrote:


On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Gerry Creager wrote:

Imagine a site with a CONUS map (to start, and thinking small; we  
could scale up) where you can use a bounding box to identify your  
region of interest or cursor to select a particular point (map).   
After that selection you see an inventory of different maps and  
types of maps available, and you use a check-list to identify the  
ones you want.  The site prepares a separate page/Torrent stream  
to provide these, and the page is lightly persistent (days before  
it ages out) and indexed on a page of recent selections.


You'd have the option of getting the data via download or Torrent  
at that point.  Simplified data delivery.


In this case you don't gain any advantages of the peer-to-peer
distributed transfer.  You only gain the advantage of another method
of server->client that may be easier to use at the client end.

We'd need a server with the space for 100 DVD's worth of data for
DRG's and another 100 for DOQQ's plus space for other types of maps,
professionaly backed-up.  Also need a big pipe 'cuz non-Xastir
people will find it too.

Now:  Imagine the same kind of a setup as you describe but have it
auto-create the torrent files and keep them around, plus post them
on a web site.  As maps get distributed from BIGSERVER over
torrrent, the bandwidth required would go down over time assuming
enough people became seeders.

Of course the reality is the server would become more popular over
time, but the torrents might keep the total bandwidth used more
under control.  Less of an exponential rise anyway.

--
Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com
http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
  Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown
Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U.
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Telecommunications Software &  Systems Group,  http://www.tssg.org



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[Xastir] Xastir Devel Snapshot

[Curt, WE7U]

Project: XASTIR  (xastir)
Package: xastir-development
Date   : 2008-08-01 08:00

Project "XASTIR" ('xastir') has released the new version of package
'xastir-development'. You can download it from SourceForge.net by
following
this link:

or browse Release Notes and ChangeLog by visiting this link:


--
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http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
  Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown
Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U.
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Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[Curt, WE7U]

On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Gerry Creager wrote:

Imagine a site with a CONUS map (to start, and thinking small; we could scale 
up) where you can use a bounding box to identify your region of interest or 
cursor to select a particular point (map).  After that selection you see an 
inventory of different maps and types of maps available, and you use a 
check-list to identify the ones you want.  The site prepares a separate 
page/Torrent stream to provide these, and the page is lightly persistent 
(days before it ages out) and indexed on a page of recent selections.


You'd have the option of getting the data via download or Torrent at that 
point.  Simplified data delivery.


In this case you don't gain any advantages of the peer-to-peer
distributed transfer.  You only gain the advantage of another method
of server->client that may be easier to use at the client end.

We'd need a server with the space for 100 DVD's worth of data for
DRG's and another 100 for DOQQ's plus space for other types of maps,
professionaly backed-up.  Also need a big pipe 'cuz non-Xastir
people will find it too.

Now:  Imagine the same kind of a setup as you describe but have it
auto-create the torrent files and keep them around, plus post them
on a web site.  As maps get distributed from BIGSERVER over
torrrent, the bandwidth required would go down over time assuming
enough people became seeders.

Of course the reality is the server would become more popular over
time, but the torrents might keep the total bandwidth used more
under control.  Less of an exponential rise anyway.

--
Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com
http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
  Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown
Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U.
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[Gerry Creager]

Curt, WE7U wrote:

On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Jason KG4WSV wrote:


...I'm trying to understand if and how we (xastir
and APRS users) can benefit from the distribution system in the
sharing of our sometimes large chunks of data, like maps and VM
images.

The basic premise/assumption is that many people will want to download
and many of those will make the data once they have downloaded, right?
If no one peering, there is nothing to download?  I guess it degrades
to a traditional master-client download if there's only 1 "peer".

I'm trying to figure out if it's worth the effort, given our
relatively small numbers, to make things like VM images, TIGER
shapefiles, DRGs, DOQQs, etc available via bit torrent.


In the recent past I said I didn't know anything about torrent.
That was somewhat false, as I've been using it for a few years but
only in the "leecher" mode.  When it got to "seeding" I always shut
it down.  Now I see a reason to leave it in seeding mode and have
done so.  I basically understand how torrent works and am getting
used to some of the special lingo for it.

I don't yet know if the below scheme would work but I'll put it out
there.  Someone more familiar with it can shoot it down:

a) Someone runs a web page that has multiple ".torrent" files on it,
   representing all the things we have available to download.  This
   could be a Wiki page, right?  We'd have to be careful who has
   edit access to it (user/password).  We have one such page now
   with three items on it, but it's not a Wiki.  This web page ends
   up with very little usage as the bulk transfers happen
   client-to-client, not from this web page.

b) People make various maps available for download.  For instance I
   have three DVD's containing all of the USGS topos for WA that are
   freely distributable.  I also have a good portion of OR and a few
   for ID/MT/HI.  I'd love for these to be "out there" for other
   people to use.

c) These same people create a torrent file out of this data, upload
   it to the Wiki, and edit the Wiki to make that torrent link show
   up.

d) The first download ends up being a server/client relationship as
   you described, but if at least a few of the people doing the
   downloads leave their torrent client up and running, they become
   a shared resource for the same file.  More than likely if we put
   maps up there we'll have non-Xastir people doing downloads as
   well, maybe even becoming additional resources to download from.

e) The maps contributed in this manner must be freely distributable
   to preserve our good project name.

Questions I have still:

1) Would we want to create a torrent for each file?  For each CD or
   DVD set?  In my case the DVD's were created from a LOT of CD's,
   and each CD had a LOT of maps on it.  Of course each map is
   megabytes of data as well.  I know I could create a torrent for
   an entire directory, but in the case of the DATA and METADATA
   directories for these CD's or especially DVD's the download would
   be huge.  I guess once two people have it and are seeding it
   changes things, but that initial first download would take forever.

2) To make it easier on the map providers, one big download is the
   way to go.  To make it easier on the "leechers" it might be
   better to have smaller increments.  How does one decide this?
   I'm sure I could write a script that would make a torrent file
   out of each map file, but am not sure I could do the same to get
   the multiple thousands of torrents uploaded to a Wiki.

3) Is the idea of distributing maps via torrent workable at all?
   I've been looking for a method to make USGS DRG's and DOQQ's
   available for a number of years, and this seems the closest match
   to date.


CAVEAT:  I can't even START to think about this 'til I can extricate 
myself from a particular project, but what I'd like to see would be some 
variant on this...


Imagine a site with a CONUS map (to start, and thinking small; we could 
scale up) where you can use a bounding box to identify your region of 
interest or cursor to select a particular point (map).  After that 
selection you see an inventory of different maps and types of maps 
available, and you use a check-list to identify the ones you want.  The 
site prepares a separate page/Torrent stream to provide these, and the 
page is lightly persistent (days before it ages out) and indexed on a 
page of recent selections.


You'd have the option of getting the data via download or Torrent at 
that point.  Simplified data delivery.


I'm not sure how making delivery of all those maps via Torrent can be 
done without some form of simplified selection, but then I'm not a big 
Torrent user.  I tend to get OS distro's and kernel updates that way, at 
home, because it "just happens" and I don't have to worry much about it. 
 This doesn't make me an expert, though, as I got it working once and 
locked in the format.

gc
--
Gerry Creager -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Texas Mesonet -- AAT

Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[Curt, WE7U]

On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Gerry Creager wrote:

We have some folks who don't have a lot of bandwidth, so a Torrent might be 
useful to them to retrieve stuff, but that's speculation.  Overall, 
repositories in the conventional sense might be better/easier to

maintain.


What about when one user has a whole lot of data but a limited pipe
heading out?  I think I have 800kbits up/3Mbits down.  A torrent
might be a good way to get the data out there, eventually.

The sheer volume involved in CD's or DVD's containing images is
daunting, i.e. DRG's and DOQQ's.

--
Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com
http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
  Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown
Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U.
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Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[Curt, WE7U]

On Fri, 1 Aug 2008, Jason KG4WSV wrote:


...I'm trying to understand if and how we (xastir
and APRS users) can benefit from the distribution system in the
sharing of our sometimes large chunks of data, like maps and VM
images.

The basic premise/assumption is that many people will want to download
and many of those will make the data once they have downloaded, right?
If no one peering, there is nothing to download?  I guess it degrades
to a traditional master-client download if there's only 1 "peer".

I'm trying to figure out if it's worth the effort, given our
relatively small numbers, to make things like VM images, TIGER
shapefiles, DRGs, DOQQs, etc available via bit torrent.


In the recent past I said I didn't know anything about torrent.
That was somewhat false, as I've been using it for a few years but
only in the "leecher" mode.  When it got to "seeding" I always shut
it down.  Now I see a reason to leave it in seeding mode and have
done so.  I basically understand how torrent works and am getting
used to some of the special lingo for it.

I don't yet know if the below scheme would work but I'll put it out
there.  Someone more familiar with it can shoot it down:

a) Someone runs a web page that has multiple ".torrent" files on it,
   representing all the things we have available to download.  This
   could be a Wiki page, right?  We'd have to be careful who has
   edit access to it (user/password).  We have one such page now
   with three items on it, but it's not a Wiki.  This web page ends
   up with very little usage as the bulk transfers happen
   client-to-client, not from this web page.

b) People make various maps available for download.  For instance I
   have three DVD's containing all of the USGS topos for WA that are
   freely distributable.  I also have a good portion of OR and a few
   for ID/MT/HI.  I'd love for these to be "out there" for other
   people to use.

c) These same people create a torrent file out of this data, upload
   it to the Wiki, and edit the Wiki to make that torrent link show
   up.

d) The first download ends up being a server/client relationship as
   you described, but if at least a few of the people doing the
   downloads leave their torrent client up and running, they become
   a shared resource for the same file.  More than likely if we put
   maps up there we'll have non-Xastir people doing downloads as
   well, maybe even becoming additional resources to download from.

e) The maps contributed in this manner must be freely distributable
   to preserve our good project name.

Questions I have still:

1) Would we want to create a torrent for each file?  For each CD or
   DVD set?  In my case the DVD's were created from a LOT of CD's,
   and each CD had a LOT of maps on it.  Of course each map is
   megabytes of data as well.  I know I could create a torrent for
   an entire directory, but in the case of the DATA and METADATA
   directories for these CD's or especially DVD's the download would
   be huge.  I guess once two people have it and are seeding it
   changes things, but that initial first download would take forever.

2) To make it easier on the map providers, one big download is the
   way to go.  To make it easier on the "leechers" it might be
   better to have smaller increments.  How does one decide this?
   I'm sure I could write a script that would make a torrent file
   out of each map file, but am not sure I could do the same to get
   the multiple thousands of torrents uploaded to a Wiki.

3) Is the idea of distributing maps via torrent workable at all?
   I've been looking for a method to make USGS DRG's and DOQQ's
   available for a number of years, and this seems the closest match
   to date.

--
Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com
http://www.eskimo.com/~archer
  Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown
Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U.
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
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Re: [Xastir] Xastir-Hardy VM Revised

[Gerry Creager]

If you're paying for 1MB/s SDSL, and getting 10k, you're seeing a real 
problem.


David Aitcheson wrote:

Curt,

No limits were in play, just a wimpy pipe on my end.
Mind you it is a lot better than dial-up that I used to have.
If I got 1 KB/s down and 500B/s up on dial-up that was a good day.
Last night I was only getting 10 KB/s up on a 1 MB/s _SYNCRONOUS_ pipe!

Dave - KB3EFS
FN24BI81GP & FN24BI81GQ

On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 9:26 PM, Curt, WE7U <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:


On Thu, 31 Jul 2008, David Aitcheson wrote:

 Well so much for that effort.

On top of a exstreamly slow upload speed the ISP called and complained
about
it.  Down is okay with them, but up is not.


Your client may have a way to limit the bandwidth for uploads.

--
Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com
http://www.eskimo.com/~archer 
 Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown
Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U.
The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"

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Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.862.3982 FAX: 979.862.3983
Office: 1700 Research Parkway Ste 160, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843

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Re: [Xastir] torrents and xastir

[Gerry Creager]

P2P excels when there's a lot of consumers, and you start with 
one server.  If, however, each subscribers becomes a server (publisher) 
upon receipt, per-server bandwidth limitations, and system load, are 
mitigated.


For some small value of convenience, too, a user can start a Torrent 
stream and come back to a whole file.  When you're talking movies or 
songs... or TIGER datasets, this can be useful.


We have some folks who don't have a lot of bandwidth, so a Torrent might 
be useful to them to retrieve stuff, but that's speculation.  Overall, 
repositories in the conventional sense might be better/easier to maintain.



Jason KG4WSV wrote:

I'm not terribly familiar with bit torrent, so forgive me if these are
novice questions, but I'm trying to understand if and how we (xastir
and APRS users) can benefit from the distribution system in the
sharing of our sometimes large chunks of data, like maps and VM
images.

The basic premise/assumption is that many people will want to download
and many of those will make the data once they have downloaded, right?
 If no one peering, there is nothing to download?  I guess it degrades
to a traditional master-client download if there's only 1 "peer".

I'm trying to figure out if it's worth the effort, given our
relatively small numbers, to make things like VM images, TIGER
shapefiles, DRGs, DOQQs, etc available via bit torrent.



--
Gerry Creager -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Texas Mesonet -- AATLT, Texas A&M University
Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.862.3982 FAX: 979.862.3983
Office: 1700 Research Parkway Ste 160, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843

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[Xastir] torrents and xastir

[Jason KG4WSV]

I'm not terribly familiar with bit torrent, so forgive me if these are
novice questions, but I'm trying to understand if and how we (xastir
and APRS users) can benefit from the distribution system in the
sharing of our sometimes large chunks of data, like maps and VM
images.

The basic premise/assumption is that many people will want to download
and many of those will make the data once they have downloaded, right?
 If no one peering, there is nothing to download?  I guess it degrades
to a traditional master-client download if there's only 1 "peer".

I'm trying to figure out if it's worth the effort, given our
relatively small numbers, to make things like VM images, TIGER
shapefiles, DRGs, DOQQs, etc available via bit torrent.

-- 
-Jason
kg4wsv
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Re: [Xastir] Xastir-Hardy VM Revised

[David Aitcheson]

Curt,

No limits were in play, just a wimpy pipe on my end.
Mind you it is a lot better than dial-up that I used to have.
If I got 1 KB/s down and 500B/s up on dial-up that was a good day.
Last night I was only getting 10 KB/s up on a 1 MB/s _SYNCRONOUS_ pipe!

Dave - KB3EFS
FN24BI81GP & FN24BI81GQ

On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 9:26 PM, Curt, WE7U <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On Thu, 31 Jul 2008, David Aitcheson wrote:
>
>  Well so much for that effort.
>>
>> On top of a exstreamly slow upload speed the ISP called and complained
>> about
>> it.  Down is okay with them, but up is not.
>>
>
> Your client may have a way to limit the bandwidth for uploads.
>
> --
> Curt, WE7U. archer at eskimo dot com
> http://www.eskimo.com/~archer 
>  Lotto:  A tax on people who are bad at math. - unknown
> Windows:  Microsoft's tax on computer illiterates. - WE7U.
> The world DOES revolve around me:  I picked the coordinate system!"
>
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[Xastir] AntiX available at ftp://aprs.tamu.edu

[Gerry Creager]

At ftp://aprs.tamu.edu/pub/Xastir/VM/Xastir-antiX_7-15-08.zip

And this time I checked permissions!
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Gerry Creager -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Texas Mesonet -- AATLT, Texas A&M University
Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.862.3982 FAX: 979.862.3983
Office: 1700 Research Parkway Ste 160, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843

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Re: [Xastir] Xastir-Hardy on aprs.tamu.edu

[Gerry Creager]

Fixed.

Sorry.

gerry

Lee Bengston wrote:

On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 8:00 AM, Gerry Creager <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The files (.zip, .md5sum) are at ftp://aprs.tamu.edu/pub/Xastir/VM/

gerry
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Gerry Creager -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Texas Mesonet -- AATLT, Texas A&M University
Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.458.4020 FAX: 979.862.3983
Office: 1700 Research Parkway Ste 160, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843


Thanks, Gerry!

Fyi, I tried a little test and was unable to download.  I think there
is a permissions issue with the files.  My FTP client shows them at
600.

Regards,
Lee
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Gerry Creager -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Texas Mesonet -- AATLT, Texas A&M University
Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.862.3982 FAX: 979.862.3983
Office: 1700 Research Parkway Ste 160, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843

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Re: [Xastir] Xastir-Hardy on aprs.tamu.edu

[Gerry Creager]

Just got to Austin for SummerFest.  OK, so I got here a couple of hours 
ago and I'm working late.


Let me check those and see.

gerry

Lee Bengston wrote:

On Thu, Jul 31, 2008 at 8:00 AM, Gerry Creager <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

The files (.zip, .md5sum) are at ftp://aprs.tamu.edu/pub/Xastir/VM/

gerry
--
Gerry Creager -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Texas Mesonet -- AATLT, Texas A&M University
Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.458.4020 FAX: 979.862.3983
Office: 1700 Research Parkway Ste 160, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843


Thanks, Gerry!

Fyi, I tried a little test and was unable to download.  I think there
is a permissions issue with the files.  My FTP client shows them at
600.

Regards,
Lee
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--
Gerry Creager -- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Texas Mesonet -- AATLT, Texas A&M University
Cell: 979.229.5301 Office: 979.862.3982 FAX: 979.862.3983
Office: 1700 Research Parkway Ste 160, TAMU, College Station, TX 77843

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