Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around "ß"
Tobias Schoel wrote: [I]f it [(LaTeX)] assumes TeX by default, it should provide a hook for other engines. Why ? New TeX-related engines could emerge at any time; why is it the job of the LaTeX team to track these and handle them gracefully ? LaTeX is intended to work with Knuth's TeX [1] as its engine; if it supports other engines, then that is great, but the duty so to do cannot be dumped on the LaTeX team. Philip Taylor [1] Actually, I think it assumes e-TeX these days, but not using LaTeX I cannot be sure. -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around "ß"
Am Mon, 17 Feb 2014 16:16:27 +0200 schrieb Tobias Schoel: > Then maybe, latex.ltx should be changed? Why is LaTeX fussing around in > clearly engine-specific terrain? LaTeX was written at a time when there didn't exist unicode-aware engines. And LaTeX can't avoid to set lccodes: Someone has to provide defaults. > Or if it assumes TeX by default, it should provide a hook for > other engines. LaTeX does provide this hook in the form of the file hyphen.cfg: every engine can provide its own hyphen.cfg (or hyphen.cfg can make tests for engines). -- Ulrike Fischer http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/ -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around "ß"
Then maybe, latex.ltx should be changed? Why is LaTeX fussing around in
clearly engine-specific terrain? Or if it assumes TeX by default, it
should provide a hook for other engines.
ciao
Toscho
Am 17.02.2014 15:05, schrieb Ulrike Fischer:
Am Mon, 17 Feb 2014 12:46:17 + schrieb
lis...@tex-tipografia.com:
I did notify Javier Bezos, the maintainer of babel. He could change
hyphen.cfg. But I don't know if he did anything about it yet.
I'm investigating it, but I think the proper place is
xetex.ini, not hyphen.cfg.
xetlatex.ini can't do it: latex.ltx changes lccode/uccode directly
before reading hyphen.cfg:
\lccode`\^^[=`\^^[ % oe in OT1
\lccode`\- =`\- % default hyphen char
\lccode 127=127 % alternate hyphen char
\lccode 23 =23% textcompwordmark in T1
\InputIfFileExists{hyphen.cfg}
There is no sensible hook for xelatex.ini.
The codes must be changed again either at the begin of hyphen.cfg or
at the begin of every pattern affected by the problem.
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Am Sun, 16 Feb 2014 19:26:51 +0100 schrieb Georg Pfeiffer: >> I did notify Javier Bezos, the maintainer of babel. He could change >> hyphen.cfg. But I don't know if he did anything about it yet. > Thank you. Maybe it would be a nice reason vor TL14. :-) Such things don't need an update of the tex system. That's a simple change in a package. -- Ulrike Fischer http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/ -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ulrike Fischer writes: > I did notify Javier Bezos, the maintainer of babel. He could change > hyphen.cfg. But I don't know if he did anything about it yet. Thank you. Maybe it would be a nice reason vor TL14. :-) gp -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux) iEYEARECAAYFAlMBAusACgkQeekUveeeVouuiQCePgU1fvtki4Lh/RSANcmSEMf6 LmkAoLZMDYnUxp/KcI0Vb9HhZvgjmmg8 =g6NH -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Am Sun, 16 Feb 2014 05:09:04 +0100 schrieb Georg Pfeiffer: >> But it seems a bit silly to load unicode-letters in every language >> file. It's imho more sensible to do it in hyphen.cfg before the >> language files are read. > Will that be done in the next release of XeTeX or do I have to set it > locally? I did notify Javier Bezos, the maintainer of babel. He could change hyphen.cfg. But I don't know if he did anything about it yet. -- Ulrike Fischer http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/ -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Ulrike Fischer writes: > But it seems a bit silly to load unicode-letters in every language > file. It's imho more sensible to do it in hyphen.cfg before the > language files are read. Will that be done in the next release of XeTeX or do I have to set it locally? gp -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Am Mon, 27 Jan 2014 19:18:48 +0200 schrieb Tobias Schoel: > Am 27.01.2014 12:23, schrieb Jonathan Kew: >> Its \uccode is debatable; it should probably also be 223, as ß is >> normally treated as non-uppercaseable (or as uppercasing to "SS", which >> can't be done via \uccode), but another option would be 0x1E9E, for the >> (relatively recently-encoded) Unicode letter U+1E9E LATIN CAPITAL LETTER >> SHARP S > > If "SS" and "SZ" are not possible, then Capital Sharp S should be used. > Lowercase Sharp S in All-Uppercase text always looks ridiculous. It > seems, as if one cannot handle it correctly, which is strange nowadays. "Old" T1-encoded fonts for pdflatex does handle it correctly: They have normaly a "SS"-glyph at position 223 which used for uppercasing. In xetex it should be easy to set the uppercase code of ß to LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S (U+1E9E) and then to map this (if wanted e.g. if the font doesn't have U+1E9E) to SS. -- Ulrike Fischer http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/ -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Am 27.01.2014 12:23, schrieb Jonathan Kew: Its \uccode is debatable; it should probably also be 223, as ß is normally treated as non-uppercaseable (or as uppercasing to "SS", which can't be done via \uccode), but another option would be 0x1E9E, for the (relatively recently-encoded) Unicode letter U+1E9E LATIN CAPITAL LETTER SHARP S If "SS" and "SZ" are not possible, then Capital Sharp S should be used. Lowercase Sharp S in All-Uppercase text always looks ridiculous. It seems, as if one cannot handle it correctly, which is strange nowadays. ciao Tobias -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Am Mon, 27 Jan 2014 10:23:02 + schrieb Jonathan Kew: >> So this probably means that the code at the end of xelatex.ini which >> resets catcodes and lccode/uccodes etc should move to the begin of >> hyphen.cfg so that the correct codes are active when the patterns >> are read. > > That sounds right, I think. Or maybe this can be fixed within the > hyph-utf8 code somewhere. It works fine if one load e.g. in loadhyph-de-1901.tex unicode-letters before loading the patterns: \input unicode-letters \input hyph-de-1901.tex But it seems a bit silly to load unicode-letters in every language file. It's imho more sensible to do it in hyphen.cfg before the language files are read. -- Ulrike Fischer http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/ -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
On 27/1/14 09:47, Ulrike Fischer wrote:
Am Mon, 13 Jan 2014 08:24:30 + schrieb Jonathan Kew:
So is it relly true, that XeTeX is not able to apply the TeX hyphenation
mechnanism correctly to some unicode characters like „ß“?
I can't believe it.
That seems unlikely. It's almost certainly being affected by something
that latex or babel or whatever is setting up.
The problem seems to be the \lccode and \uccode of ß:
During format generation of xelatex (just before the pattern are
read) they are are set to 255 and 223 by "\reserved@a{"C0}{"DF}".
Aha. That looks like it relates to a legacy 8-bit codepage (Cork?), and
is incorrect for a Unicode world.
\lccode of ß should certainly be 223 (0xDF), corresponding to its
Unicode value U+00DF LATIN SMALL LETTER SHARP S.
Its \uccode is debatable; it should probably also be 223, as ß is
normally treated as non-uppercaseable (or as uppercasing to "SS", which
can't be done via \uccode), but another option would be 0x1E9E, for the
(relatively recently-encoded) Unicode letter U+1E9E LATIN CAPITAL LETTER
SHARP S.
But latter on xelatex.ini resets them both to 223 and this disturbs
the hyphenation:
\documentclass{article}
\textwidth=1in
\usepackage{fontspec}
\usepackage[german]{babel}
\begin{document}
\showthe\lccode`\ß
\showthe\uccode`\ß
\noindent wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
\par
%Setting values active at format generation works:
\lccode`\ß=255
\uccode`\ß=223
\noindent wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
\par
\end{document}
I don't know if it is an expected behaviour or a bug of xetex that
the lccode/uccode matters.
It's expected that it matters, because text is mapped via \lccode for
matching against hyphenation patterns.
(AFAIR, \uccode should be irrelevant here.)
But you get the same behaviour with
lualatex only the "other way round": As the pattern are read only at
the begin of document the first paragraph in my example works fine,
but the second with the changed lccode/uccode fails.
So this probably means that the code at the end of xelatex.ini which
resets catcodes and lccode/uccodes etc should move to the begin of
hyphen.cfg so that the correct codes are active when the patterns
are read.
That sounds right, I think. Or maybe this can be fixed within the
hyph-utf8 code somewhere.
Reading the patterns with incorrect lccodes (in particular, \lccode `ß =
255) may appear to work if you set that same lccode in the document, but
it's still wrong - and seems likely to lead to confusion with ÿ, which
is U+00FF.
Thanks for the diagnosis!
JK
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Am Mon, 13 Jan 2014 08:24:30 + schrieb Jonathan Kew:
>> So is it relly true, that XeTeX is not able to apply the TeX hyphenation
>> mechnanism correctly to some unicode characters like „ß“?
>> I can't believe it.
> That seems unlikely. It's almost certainly being affected by something
> that latex or babel or whatever is setting up.
The problem seems to be the \lccode and \uccode of ß:
During format generation of xelatex (just before the pattern are
read) they are are set to 255 and 223 by "\reserved@a{"C0}{"DF}".
But latter on xelatex.ini resets them both to 223 and this disturbs
the hyphenation:
\documentclass{article}
\textwidth=1in
\usepackage{fontspec}
\usepackage[german]{babel}
\begin{document}
\showthe\lccode`\ß
\showthe\uccode`\ß
\noindent wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
\par
%Setting values active at format generation works:
\lccode`\ß=255
\uccode`\ß=223
\noindent wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
\par
\end{document}
I don't know if it is an expected behaviour or a bug of xetex that
the lccode/uccode matters. But you get the same behaviour with
lualatex only the "other way round": As the pattern are read only at
the begin of document the first paragraph in my example works fine,
but the second with the changed lccode/uccode fails.
So this probably means that the code at the end of xelatex.ini which
resets catcodes and lccode/uccodes etc should move to the begin of
hyphen.cfg so that the correct codes are active when the patterns
are read.
--
Ulrike Fischer
http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Philip Taylor wrote:
> I can see you have not lost your Wizard's touch, David, but will
> that work (as-is) in an IniXeTeX regime ? It looks to me as if
> it makes use of some plain-defined control words such as \z@ and
> \@ne. We need it to work in an Ini(Xe)TeX regime so that we can
> introduce different patterns to compare the behaviour.
Hmmm. I did my best to take out all Plain dependencies, but I failed
and it will no longer compile. David, can you identify where I screwed
up ?
** Phil.
% !TeX Program=IniXeTeX
\catcode `\{=1
\catcode `\}=2
\catcode `\# = 6
\catcode `\% = 14
\catcode `\ = \catcode `\ % tab !!!
\let \bgroup = {
\let \egroup = }
\input unicode-letters.tex
\input hyph-de-1996.tex
\font \tenrm = "Times New Roman" at 10pt
\hyphenchar \tenrm = `\-
\tenrm
\parfillskip = 0 pt
\catcode `\@ = 11
\def \showhyphenspace #1
{%
\ifx \valign #1\valign
\else
#1\vadjust {\penalty 1 } \expandafter \showhyphenspace
\fi
}
\def \showhyphens #1%
{%
\bgroup
\showboxbreadth = 16383.9 pt
\showboxdepth = 16383.9 pt
\pretolerance = -1
\tolerance = -1
\setbox 2 = \hbox {}%
\setbox 0 = \vbox
\bgroup
\pretolerance = -1
\tolerance = -1
\hbadness = 0
\parfillskip = 0 pt \relax
\hsize = 1 sp
\noindent
\hskip 0 pt
\hfuzz = 16383.9 pt
\hbadness = \dimexpr {16383.9 pt }%
\showhyphenspace #1 {} \par
\loop
\count 0 = 1
\ifnum 1 = \lastnodetype
\setbox 4 = \lastbox
\setbox 2 = \hbox {\unhbox 4 \unhbox 2}%
\count 0 = 0
\fi
\ifnum 11 = \lastnodetype \unskip \count 0 = 0 \fi
\ifnum 13 = \lastnodetype
\count 2 = \lastpenalty
\unpenalty
\count 0 = 0
\ifnum \count 2 = 1
\setbox 2 = \hbox {\unhbox 2 }%
\count 0 = 0
\fi
\fi
\ifnum 0 = \count 0
\repeat
\hsize = 16383.9 pt
\hfuzz = 0 pt
\hbadness = 0
\par
\unhbox 2
\par
\egroup
\egroup
}
\showhyphens {wußte geißeln}
\end
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
I can see you have not lost your Wizard's touch, David, but will that work (as-is) in an IniXeTeX regime ? It looks to me as if it makes use of some plain-defined control words such as \z@ and \@ne. We need it to work in an Ini(Xe)TeX regime so that we can introduce different patterns to compare the behaviour. ** Phil. -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Phil wrote
> Not as good as Knuth's, as it typesets the output rather than
If you wanted something that worked like \showhyphens you could do this
It produces the following with xetex
Underfull \hbox (badness 1) in paragraph at lines 1--1
[] \tenrm good-bye hy-phen-ation
Underfull \hbox (badness 1) in paragraph at lines 8--8
[] \tenrm goodbye hyphenation
Underfull \hbox (badness 1) in paragraph at lines 55--55
[] \tenrm good-bye hy-phen-ation
)
where the first is with its default cm font, second is just changing it to
use Times Roman, then third is redefinition of \showhyphens
\showhyphens{goodbye hyphenation}
\font\tenrm = "Times New Roman" at 10pt
\hyphenchar\tenrm=`\-
\tenrm
\showhyphens{goodbye hyphenation}
\catcode`\@=11
\def\showhyphenspace#1 {%
\ifx\valign#1\valign\else
#1\vadjust{\penalty\@ne} \expandafter\showhyphenspace
\fi}
\def\showhyphens#1{{%
\showboxbreadth\maxdimen
\showboxdepth\maxdimen
\pretolerance\m@ne\tolerance\m@ne
\setbox2\hbox{}%
\setbox0\vbox{%
\pretolerance\m@ne
\tolerance\m@ne\hbadness\z@
\parfillskip\z@skip
\hsize1sp
\noindent
\hskip\z@
\hfuzz\maxdimen
\hbadness\maxdimen
\showhyphenspace#1 {} \par
\loop
\count@\@ne
\ifnum1=\lastnodetype
\setbox4\lastbox
\setbox2\hbox{\unhbox4 \unhbox2}\count@\z@
\fi
\ifnum11=\lastnodetype\unskip\count@\z@\fi
\ifnum13=\lastnodetype
\count2\lastpenalty
\unpenalty\count@\z@
\ifnum\count2=\@ne
\setbox2\hbox{ \unhbox2}\count@\z@
\fi
\fi
\ifnum\z@=\count@
\repeat
\hsize\maxdimen
\hfuzz\z@
\hbadness\z@
\par
\unhbox2
\par
}}}
\showhyphens{goodbye hyphenation}
\bye
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Georg Pfeiffer wrote:
> Am Mi 15 Jan 2014 13:13:18 GMT schrieb Philip Taylor:
>>> % !TeX Program=IniiXeTeX …
>
> Sorry, how to use this snippet of code?
> georg
Ignoring the typo. in "IniiXeTeX" (which should, of course,
read "IniXeTeX"), all that is necessary is to plug the
list of words, the hyphenation of which you wish to
investigate, into the parameter list for \shewhyphens,
process the file, then view the PDF to see how each
word is hyphenated. It wasn't actually a snippet --
it was a complete working program, with example
parameter list {wußte geißeln}.
** Phil.
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
On Jan 15, 2014, at 7:39 AM, Georg Pfeiffer wrote: > Am Mi 15 Jan 2014 14:13:18 schrieb Philip Taylor: >>> % !TeX Program=IniiXeTeX … > > Sorry, how to use this snippet of code? > georg > Howdy, That comment line is read by TeXworks (and will work with the latest versions of TeXShop on a Mac too). It tells TeXworks to use an IniiXeTeX Tool (or engine in TeXShop parlance) to compile the file. For this to work you need to define such a Tool (engine) since that isn't defined in the default setup. Most likely it simply runs xetex -etex -ini on the file you are compiling. Good Luck, Herb Schulz (herbs at wideopenwest dot com) -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Am Mi 15 Jan 2014 14:13:18 schrieb Philip Taylor: > > % !TeX Program=IniiXeTeX … Sorry, how to use this snippet of code? georg signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Philip Taylor wrote:
> Jonathan Kew wrote:
>
>> So IIRC, the alternative version works by setting the word into a
>> zero-width \vbox, and then extracting the resulting word fragments from
>> the list of (all overfull) lines in the paragraph and assembling them
>> into a line for display. Of course this could all be written from
>> scratch using tex primitives, but at the time it seemed easier to make
>> use of some higher-level tools.
>
> OK, I like low-level TeX coding; I will attempt to replicate
> its functionality for Plain XeTeX users when I have a moment
> or two ...
Not as good as Knuth's, as it typesets the output rather than shewing
it in the log file, but may be of help in cases such as this :
> % !TeX Program=IniiXeTeX
>
> % > file "de-1996.tex" <
>
> \catcode `\{=1
> \catcode `\}=2
> \catcode `\# = 6
> \catcode `\% = 14
> \catcode `\ = \catcode `\ % tab !!!
>
> \let \bgroup = {
> \let \egroup = }
>
> \input unicode-letters.tex
> \input hyph-de-1996.tex
>
> \font\tenrm = "Times New Roman" at 10pt
> \hyphenchar\tenrm=`\-
> \tenrm
>
> \hsize=2in
> \vsize=8in
> \parfillskip=0pt
>
> \def \shewhyphens #1%
> {%
> \setbox 0 = \vbox
> \bgroup
> \parfillskip = 0 pt
> \hsize = 0 pt
> \hfuzz = 16383.9 pt
> \tenrm
> \pretolerance = -1
> \tolerance = -1
> \hbadness = \hfuzz
> \ #1%
> \egroup
> \copy 0
> }
>
> \shewhyphens {wußte geißeln}
>
> \end
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Am Mo 13 Jan 2014 17:59:39 schrieb Keith J. Schultz: > Since TEX et al. is not a spellchecker we only need to worry about > hyphenation, and not if ß is used or not! Indeed, the actual question is: Why doesn't XeLaTeX find hyphenation points in front of an ß while (pdf-)LaTeX, LuaLaTeX and XeTeX find them correctly, and how can I achieve that XeLaTeX finds them, too? I am suspicious that there is a flaw in xltxtra because XeLaTeX shows the same results with babel and polyglossia. Only xltxtra is common in the diverse tests. Georg signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Hi Susan, All, the is no law in Germany that dictates or requires one by "law" to use one particular orthography. Though, the new reformed "reformed" orthography is taught in school as the correct form to be used! The general rules is to stick to one of the orthography and you are safe. Since TEX et al. is not a spellchecker we only need to worry about hyphenation, and not if ß is used or not! regards Keith. Am 13.01.2014 um 15:02 schrieb Susan Dittmar : > Dear Phil, > > Philip Taylor schrieb: >> My 1999 edition of the Collins German Dictionary (reformed orthography) >> gives only "wusste", and gives it as the preterite of "wissen". >> Does "wußte" exist in the Reformed Orthography, and if so, >> with what meaning ? > > it does not exist in the Reformed Orthography, that's right. But there's > strong resistance, as you probably already noticed, against this reform. So > although Law decided for "wußte" to no longer be correct, most people here > (at least most of those who finished school before the reform) still use, and > insist on, the old form. > > Btw, the reform only applies to Germany. To my knowledge it does not apply to > other German-speaking countries like Austria and Suisse. > > Hope that helps lessen the confusion, > > Susan > > > > > -- > Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: > http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Hi All, according to the new reformed rules, the use of ß is dependent on the length of the preceding vowel. So, according to the latest reformed orthography rules wusste is correct. Some words seem to be still allowed with the older orthography, but the they are exceptions. Either way, the way ß is hyphenated stays the same! So, whenever a ß shows up the hyphenation method stays. For all interrest there has been two main reforms to the reform of 1996. To my knowledge the latest was in 2006. Most of these reforms were regarding spelling to reduce much of the confusion and many exceptions introduced in 1996. Gruß, regards Keith Am 13.01.2014 um 13:08 schrieb Philip Taylor : > > > Georg Pfeiffer wrote: > >> There should be no difference, because the used word in the test have >> the same spelling and hyphenation in both variants. The patterns should >> be the same. The problem sticks anywhere between xetex and the output >> (LaTeX for XeTeX, xltxtra, babel, polygrossia). > > Well, I am confused (not an unusual state of affairs, many will opine). > My 1999 edition of the Collins German Dictionary (reformed orthography) > gives only "wusste", and gives it as the preterite of "wissen". > > Does "wußte" exist in the Reformed Orthography, and if so, > with what meaning ? > > ** Phil. > > [1] Collins German Dictionary, ISBN-10 0-00-470585-8, > unabbridged, 4th edition, > 2000 pp. > > > -- > Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: > http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
I stand corrected ;-) -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Dear Susan, the Reformed Orthography was created during the 1980es and early 1990s in Germany, Austria and Switzerland. It was agreed upon during the "Wiener Orthographiekonferenz" in 1994 and presented to the politicians in all German speaking countries. In Germany, the conference of the ministers for culture (including education) of the Länder (KMK) decided to accept and implement these new rules. The relevant ministries of the Länder did so afterwards. Due to the strange educational system in Germany, this is near-law status. That means, that in Germany the Reformed Orthography is compulsory _in schools only_. Many but not all other institutions, companies … accepted the Reformed Orthography as well without being forced to do. The constitutional court even protected the population from being forced to use the Reformed Orthography (with exception to the educational system). In Austria, the relevant federal ministry implemented these rules and they apply to state institutions. In Switzerland, the rules are compulsory in the educational system with exception to Kanton Bern. In Luxembourg, they are compulsory in the educational system. In South Tyrol, they are compulsory in the educational system and the state institutions. Conclusion: There is no LAW for the Reformed Orthography in Germany, except in the educational system. The reform applies similarly to all German speaking countries. Source: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rechtschreibreform_von_1996 ciao Toscho Am 13.01.2014 16:02, schrieb Susan Dittmar: Dear Phil, Philip Taylor schrieb: My 1999 edition of the Collins German Dictionary (reformed orthography) gives only "wusste", and gives it as the preterite of "wissen". Does "wußte" exist in the Reformed Orthography, and if so, with what meaning ? it does not exist in the Reformed Orthography, that's right. But there's strong resistance, as you probably already noticed, against this reform. So although Law decided for "wußte" to no longer be correct, most people here (at least most of those who finished school before the reform) still use, and insist on, the old form. Btw, the reform only applies to Germany. To my knowledge it does not apply to other German-speaking countries like Austria and Suisse. Hope that helps lessen the confusion, Susan -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Dear Phil, Philip Taylor schrieb: My 1999 edition of the Collins German Dictionary (reformed orthography) gives only "wusste", and gives it as the preterite of "wissen". Does "wußte" exist in the Reformed Orthography, and if so, with what meaning ? it does not exist in the Reformed Orthography, that's right. But there's strong resistance, as you probably already noticed, against this reform. So although Law decided for "wußte" to no longer be correct, most people here (at least most of those who finished school before the reform) still use, and insist on, the old form. Btw, the reform only applies to Germany. To my knowledge it does not apply to other German-speaking countries like Austria and Suisse. Hope that helps lessen the confusion, Susan -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Jonathan Kew wrote: > So IIRC, the alternative version works by setting the word into a > zero-width \vbox, and then extracting the resulting word fragments from > the list of (all overfull) lines in the paragraph and assembling them > into a line for display. Of course this could all be written from > scratch using tex primitives, but at the time it seemed easier to make > use of some higher-level tools. OK, I like low-level TeX coding; I will attempt to replicate its functionality for Plain XeTeX users when I have a moment or two ... >> And why does Jonathan's example >> use the reformed orthopgraphy patterns when we are trying >> to hyphenate words with eszet ? > > It doesn't matter; I was just aiming to show that ß does not prevent > xetex correctly finding a hyphenation point that's specified by the > patterns in use. I followed that up in a later message, as "wußte" does not appear in my 1999 reformed orthography unabridged German dictionary. ** Phil. -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Am Mo 13 Jan 2014 13:08:52 schrieb Philip Taylor: > My 1999 edition of the Collins German Dictionary (reformed > orthography) gives only "wusste", and gives it as the preterite of > "wissen". You are right, in the contemporary official misspelling they write „wusste“. But it doesn't matter. I wonder why XeTeX hyphenates words like schießen, gießen, büßen etc. correctly and XeLaTeX does not. :( Georg signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
2014/1/13 Philip Taylor : > > > Georg Pfeiffer wrote: > >> There should be no difference, because the used word in the test have >> the same spelling and hyphenation in both variants. The patterns should >> be the same. The problem sticks anywhere between xetex and the output >> (LaTeX for XeTeX, xltxtra, babel, polygrossia). > > Well, I am confused (not an unusual state of affairs, many will opine). > My 1999 edition of the Collins German Dictionary (reformed orthography) > gives only "wusste", and gives it as the preterite of "wissen". > > Does "wußte" exist in the Reformed Orthography, and if so, > with what meaning ? > Regional variant? I have typeset a few text written by authors from Österreich and they used wusste and wissen, there was no ß in the whole book. > ** Phil. > > [1] Collins German Dictionary, ISBN-10 0-00-470585-8, > unabbridged, 4th edition, > 2000 pp. > > > -- > Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: > http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex -- Zdeněk Wagner http://hroch486.icpf.cas.cz/wagner/ http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Georg Pfeiffer wrote: > There should be no difference, because the used word in the test have > the same spelling and hyphenation in both variants. The patterns should > be the same. The problem sticks anywhere between xetex and the output > (LaTeX for XeTeX, xltxtra, babel, polygrossia). Well, I am confused (not an unusual state of affairs, many will opine). My 1999 edition of the Collins German Dictionary (reformed orthography) gives only "wusste", and gives it as the preterite of "wissen". Does "wußte" exist in the Reformed Orthography, and if so, with what meaning ? ** Phil. [1] Collins German Dictionary, ISBN-10 0-00-470585-8, unabbridged, 4th edition, > 2000 pp. -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
On Jan 13, 2014, at 3:37 AM, Georg Pfeiffer wrote: > xetex -etex -ini de.tex test.tex Howdy, The test file was called de.tex not test.tex! Good Luck, Herb Schulz (herbs at wideopenwest dot com) -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
On 13/1/14 10:32, Philip Taylor wrote:
Khaled Hosny wrote:
That is a known issue with Knuth's \showhyphens in XeTeX's way of
forming "native" word nodes AFAIK, xltxtra package has a modified
\showhyphens from Jonathan that should work with XeTeX.
Hmm, thank you Khaled. I took one look and knew in an instant
that it would not worked in an IniXeTeX environment :
\@for\@ii:=#1\do{\xxt@showhyphens{\@ii}}%
Is there a simpler version that does not rely on all these
adjunct bells and whistles ?
Only if someone cares to write it!
The basic issue with the original \showhyphens is that it relies on
tex's display of an underfull box. But when working with
unicode/opentype ("native") fonts, xetex strips any potential
hyphenation points that didn't actually get used during paragraph
building, so that they won't disrupt font shaping within the individual
words; therefore, they don't show up when an underfull box is logged.
So IIRC, the alternative version works by setting the word into a
zero-width \vbox, and then extracting the resulting word fragments from
the list of (all overfull) lines in the paragraph and assembling them
into a line for display. Of course this could all be written from
scratch using tex primitives, but at the time it seemed easier to make
use of some higher-level tools.
And why does Jonathan's example
use the reformed orthopgraphy patterns when we are trying
to hyphenate words with eszet ?
It doesn't matter; I was just aiming to show that ß does not prevent
xetex correctly finding a hyphenation point that's specified by the
patterns in use.
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Am Mo 13 Jan 2014 11:44:20 schrieb Arthur Reutenauer: > > And why does Jonathan's example > > > > use the reformed orthopgraphy patterns when we are trying > > to hyphenate words with eszet ? > > It works with the 1901 patterns too. There should be no difference, because the used word in the test have the same spelling and hyphenation in both variants. The patterns should be the same. The problem sticks anywhere between xetex and the output (LaTeX for XeTeX, xltxtra, babel, polygrossia). Georg signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
> And why does Jonathan's example > use the reformed orthopgraphy patterns when we are trying > to hyphenate words with eszet ? It works with the 1901 patterns too. Arthur -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Khaled Hosny wrote:
> That is a known issue with Knuth's \showhyphens in XeTeX's way of
> forming "native" word nodes AFAIK, xltxtra package has a modified
> \showhyphens from Jonathan that should work with XeTeX.
Hmm, thank you Khaled. I took one look and knew in an instant
that it would not worked in an IniXeTeX environment :
\@for\@ii:=#1\do{\xxt@showhyphens{\@ii}}%
Is there a simpler version that does not rely on all these
adjunct bells and whistles ? And why does Jonathan's example
use the reformed orthopgraphy patterns when we are trying
to hyphenate words with eszet ?
** Phil.
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 10:14:13AM +, Philip Taylor wrote: > So how is it that \showhyphens does not show these hyphenation points, That is a known issue with Knuth's \showhyphens in XeTeX's way of forming "native" word nodes AFAIK, xltxtra package has a modified \showhyphens from Jonathan that should work with XeTeX. Regards, Khaled -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Jonathan Kew wrote:
> Minimal example, to be run *without* any latex or babel macros:
Slightly modified example to shew the use of Knuth's \showhyphens
macro, with surprising results :
% > file "de-1996.tex" <
\catcode`\{=1
\catcode`\}=2
\catcode `\# = 6
\input unicode-letters.tex
\input hyph-de-1996.tex
\font\tenrm = "Times New Roman" at 10pt
\hyphenchar\tenrm=`\-
\tenrm
\hsize=2in
\vsize=8in
\parfillskip=0pt
\def \showhyphens #1{\setbox 0 = \vbox {\parfillskip = 0 pt \hsize =
16383.9 pt \tenrm \pretolerance = -1 \tolerance = -1 \hbadness = 0
\showboxdepth = 0 \ #1}}
\showhyphens {wußte geißeln}
\noindent wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
\par
\end
The strangeness : the output from \showhyphens (modulo
Windows console character set) is :
> Underfull \hbox (badness 1) in paragraph at lines 19--19
> [] \tenrm wußte geißeln
yet the PDF has hyphenation gei-ßeln & wuß-te. So how is it
that \showhyphens does not show these hyphenation points, and
(an unrelated question) why does the test example use the
"Reformed orthography" patterns and not the "Traditional
orthography" (1901) ? Do we not (in theory, at least) need
the traditional orthography patterns in order to hyphenate
words containing eszet ?
** Phil.
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Am Mo 13 Jan 2014 10:59:08 schrieb Khaled Hosny: > the line should be: > > xetex -etex -ini test.tex Yes, I found it. The hyphenation is correct. But how can I find the error? gp $ xetex -etex -ini test.tex This is XeTeX, Version 3.1415926-2.4-0.9998 (TeX Live 2012/Debian) (INITEX) restricted \write18 enabled. entering extended mode (./test.tex (/usr/share/texlive/texmf-dist/tex/generic/xetexconfig/unicode- letters.tex loading Unicode properties and character classes) (/usr/share/texlive/texmf-dist/tex/generic/hyph-utf8/patterns/tex/hyph- de-1996. tex German Hyphenation Patterns (Reformed Orthography, 2006) `dehyphn-x' 2012-05-30 (WL)) Tight \hbox (badness 67) in paragraph at lines 15--20 \tenrm wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte Tight \hbox (badness 13) in paragraph at lines 15--20 \tenrm geißeln dreißig dreißig dreißig drei- Tight \hbox (badness 11) in paragraph at lines 15--20 \tenrm ßig dreißig dreißig dreißig schießen Underfull \hbox (badness 209) in paragraph at lines 15--20 \tenrm schießen schießen schießen schie- Loose \hbox (badness 55) in paragraph at lines 15--20 \tenrm ßen schießen schießen gießen gie- Underfull \hbox (badness 645) in paragraph at lines 15--20 \tenrm ßen gießen gießen gießen gießen Underfull \hbox (badness 1728) in paragraph at lines 15--20 \tenrm gießen gießen gießen büßen bü- Underfull \hbox (badness 3977) in paragraph at lines 15--20 \tenrm ßen büßen büßen büßen büßen [0] ) (see the transcript file for additional information) Output written on test.pdf (1 page). Transcript written on test.log. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 10:26:13AM +0100, Georg Pfeiffer wrote: > Am Mo 13 Jan 2014 10:18:40 schrieb Georg Pfeiffer: > > $ etex -etex -ini de.tex test.tex > > OK, xetex, not etex, but same result. > gp > > $ xetex -etex -ini de.tex test.tex “de.tex” is the name of the document you saved, since it seems you named it “test.tex”, the line should be: xetex -etex -ini test.tex I get the hyphenation here with TeX Live 2013, too. Regards, Khaled pgpF8ygpz2w6c.pgp Description: PGP signature -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Am Mo 13 Jan 2014 10:26:13 schrieb Georg Pfeiffer: > same result Now I got it… somehow. And the hyphanation was correct. Thanks a lot. gp $ xetex -etex -ini de.tex test.tex This is XeTeX, Version 3.1415926-2.4-0.9998 (TeX Live 2012/Debian) (INITEX) restricted \write18 enabled. entering extended mode ! I can't find file `de.tex'. <*> de.tex test.tex (Press Enter to retry, or Control-D to exit) Please type another input file name: /home/var/lib/tex-common/hyphen- cnf/texlive-lang-german.list (/home/var/lib/tex-common/hyphen-cnf/texlive-lang-german.list) *\end [0] Output written on texlive-lang-german.pdf (1 page). Transcript written on texlive-lang-german.log. gp@eJus:~/tmp$ signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Am Mo 13 Jan 2014 10:18:40 schrieb Georg Pfeiffer: > $ etex -etex -ini de.tex test.tex OK, xetex, not etex, but same result. gp $ xetex -etex -ini de.tex test.texThis is XeTeX, Version 3.1415926-2.4-0.9998 (TeX Live 2012/Debian) (INITEX) restricted \write18 enabled. entering extended mode ! I can't find file `de.tex'. <*> de.tex test.tex (Press Enter to retry, or Control-D to exit) Please type another input file name: /home/usr/share/texlive/texmf- dist/tex/generic/dehyph-exptl/dehyphn-x-2012-05-30.tex (/home/usr/share/texlive/texmf-dist/tex/generic/dehyph-exptl/dehyphn- x-2012-05- 30.tex ! Undefined control sequence. l.12 \newif \if@dehyphx@UTF@ ? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Zdenek Wagner writes: > Looking at the error message in your log it seems to me that you > forgot the -ini switch. Indeed, but also with it, I didnt get it to work. Sorry for my stupidity. gp $ etex -etex -ini de.tex test.tex This is pdfTeX, Version 3.1415926-2.4-1.40.13 (TeX Live 2012/Debian) (INITEX) restricted \write18 enabled. entering extended mode ! I can't find file `de.tex'. <*> de.tex test.tex (Press Enter to retry, or Control-D to exit) Please type another input file name: /home/usr/share/texlive/texmf-dist/tex/generic/dehyph-exptl/dehyphn-x-2012-05-30.tex (/home/usr/share/texlive/texmf-dist/tex/generic/dehyph-exptl/dehyphn-x-2012-05- 30.tex ! Undefined control sequence. l.12 \newif \if@dehyphx@UTF@ ? ^C! Interruption. l.13 \@dehyphx@UTF@false ? X No pages of output. Transcript written on dehyphn-x-2012-05-30.log. pgpQlLK4jRDk2.pgp Description: PGP signature -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
2014/1/13 Georg Pfeiffer :
> Jonathan Kew writes:
>
>> On 13/1/14 07:47, Georg Pfeiffer wrote:
>> Minimal example, to be run *without* any latex or babel macros:
>
> Sorry, but I can't see any hyphenation (ouput attached).
> gp
>
Looking at the error message in your log it seems to me that you
forgot the -ini switch.
>
> $ xetex --interaction=nonstopmode test.tex
> This is XeTeX, Version 3.1415926-2.4-0.9998 (TeX Live 2012/Debian)
> restricted \write18 enabled.
> entering extended mode
> (./test.tex
> (/usr/share/texlive/texmf-dist/tex/generic/xetexconfig/unicode-letters.tex
> loading Unicode properties and character classes)
> (/usr/share/texlive/texmf-dist/tex/generic/hyph-utf8/patterns/tex/hyph-de-1996.
> tex
> German Hyphenation Patterns (Reformed Orthography, 2006) `dehyphn-x'
> 2012-05-30
> (WL)
> ! Patterns can be loaded only by INITEX.
> l.31 \patterns
> {%
> )
> Overfull \hbox (3.71669pt too wide) in paragraph at lines 15--19
> \tenrm geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln|
>
> Overfull \hbox (3.71669pt too wide) in paragraph at lines 15--19
> \tenrm geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln|
>
> Underfull \hbox (badness 1) in paragraph at lines 15--19
> \tenrm wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
> [1] )
> (see the transcript file for additional information)
> Output written on test.pdf (1 page).
> Transcript written on test.log.
>
>
>
>
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>
--
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http://icebearsoft.euweb.cz
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Jonathan Kew writes:
> On 13/1/14 07:47, Georg Pfeiffer wrote:
> Minimal example, to be run *without* any latex or babel macros:
Sorry, but I can't see any hyphenation (ouput attached).
gp
$ xetex --interaction=nonstopmode test.tex
This is XeTeX, Version 3.1415926-2.4-0.9998 (TeX Live 2012/Debian)
restricted \write18 enabled.
entering extended mode
(./test.tex
(/usr/share/texlive/texmf-dist/tex/generic/xetexconfig/unicode-letters.tex
loading Unicode properties and character classes)
(/usr/share/texlive/texmf-dist/tex/generic/hyph-utf8/patterns/tex/hyph-de-1996.
tex
German Hyphenation Patterns (Reformed Orthography, 2006) `dehyphn-x' 2012-05-30
(WL)
! Patterns can be loaded only by INITEX.
l.31 \patterns
{%
)
Overfull \hbox (3.71669pt too wide) in paragraph at lines 15--19
\tenrm geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln|
Overfull \hbox (3.71669pt too wide) in paragraph at lines 15--19
\tenrm geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln|
Underfull \hbox (badness 1) in paragraph at lines 15--19
\tenrm wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
[1] )
(see the transcript file for additional information)
Output written on test.pdf (1 page).
Transcript written on test.log.
pgpnBT6eC_2G5.pgp
Description: PGP signature
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
On 13/1/14 07:47, Georg Pfeiffer wrote:
Am Do 09 Jan 2014 17:27:03 schrieb Ulrike Fischer:
So it can't be something new in babel.
So is it relly true, that XeTeX is not able to apply the TeX hyphenation
mechnanism correctly to some unicode characters like „ß“?
I can't believe it.
That seems unlikely. It's almost certainly being affected by something
that latex or babel or whatever is setting up.
Minimal example, to be run *without* any latex or babel macros:
% > file "de.tex" <
\catcode`\{=1
\catcode`\}=2
\input unicode-letters.tex
\input hyph-de-1996.tex
\font\tenrm = "Times New Roman" at 10pt
\hyphenchar\tenrm=`\-
\tenrm
\hsize=2in
\vsize=8in
\parfillskip=0pt
\noindent wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
wußte geißeln wußte geißeln wußte geißeln
\par
\end
% > end of "de.tex" <
Run with "xetex -etex -ini de.tex" on TL2012 (the version I happen to
have installed here), this results in a PDF that correctly shows a
hyphen in one instance of "wuß-te" and one instance of "gei-ßeln".
(People without Times New Roman would need to adjust the testcase,
obviously.)
JK
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Am Do 09 Jan 2014 17:27:03 schrieb Ulrike Fischer: > So it can't be something new in babel. So is it relly true, that XeTeX is not able to apply the TeX hyphenation mechnanism correctly to some unicode characters like „ß“? I can't believe it. Georg signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
El 09/01/2014 17:27, Ulrike Fischer escribió: And I checked with miktex + babel 3.8m and texlive + babel 3.9h. In both cases I can see the difference between lualatex and xelatex. So it can't be something new in babel. In fact, in my system (TL) I can see the differences selecting the language without babel, with \language. Note babel sets the hyphenmins to 22, instead of the default 23 (which could explain why wußte doesn't get hyphenated without babel). The file loaded is loadhyph-de-1901.tex (according to the log with the babel option showlanguages). Javier -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Am Thu, 9 Jan 2014 13:44:31 + schrieb Arthur Reutenauer: >> Well, "LUATEX uses a finite state hash to match the patterns against the >> word to be hyphenated.", so it would seem to me that LuaTeX's behaviour >> cannot be considered as normative. > > If indeed LuaTeX finds hyphenation points that XeTeX misses, using the > same patterns, it is an improvement. But I would be a little surprised; > is it absolutely certain that both engines really do find the same > patterns? At least with babel I would expect it. And I checked with miktex + babel 3.8m and texlive + babel 3.9h. In both cases I can see the difference between lualatex and xelatex. So it can't be something new in babel. -- Ulrike Fischer http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/ -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
On Thu, 9 Jan 2014, Philip Taylor wrote: > Well, "LUATEX uses a finite state hash to match the patterns against the > word to be hyphenated.", so it would seem to me that LuaTeX's behaviour > cannot be considered as normative. Why? If it's matching against a fixed list of patterns, then the important thing is that list, not the algorithm used to search it; and two systems using the same list of patterns would generate the same results even if they used different search algorithms. Are you suggesting that LuaTeX's search is only approximate, and it doesn't find some matching patterns, or reports that some patterns match when they do not? That's not the meaning I get from the sentence you quote. -- Matthew Skala msk...@ansuz.sooke.bc.ca People before principles. http://ansuz.sooke.bc.ca/ -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Am Do 09 Jan 2014, 01:03:29 Uhr, schrieb Zdenek Wagner:
> At least it can hyphenate wußte but I cannot understand why geißeln
> is not hyphenated.
Thank you for vour investigation.
The difference is, that in „geißeln“ the hyphenation is in front of the
ß, in „wußte“ behind it. Those before ß XeTeX looses always, the others
only sometimes.
With babel it works fine, when you give them the marks with
\hyphenation{}. I don't understand this difference, but I want XeTeX to
find the hyphenation points from the patterns, as all the others.
--8<---cut here---start->8---
\documentclass{article}
%\sepackage{polyglossia}
%\setdefaultlanguage{german}
\usepackage[german]{babel}
\usepackage{xltxtra}
\hyphenation{
drei-ßig
schie-ßen
gie-ßen
bü-ßen
}
\begin{document}
\showhyphens{dreißig}
\showhyphens{gießen}
\showhyphens{schießen}
\showhyphens{büßen}
%showthe\lefthyphenmin
%showthe\righthyphenmin
\end{document}
--8<---cut here---end--->8---
Georg
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
> Well, "LUATEX uses a finite state hash to match the patterns against the > word to be hyphenated.", so it would seem to me that LuaTeX's behaviour > cannot be considered as normative. If indeed LuaTeX finds hyphenation points that XeTeX misses, using the same patterns, it is an improvement. But I would be a little surprised; is it absolutely certain that both engines really do find the same patterns? Arthur -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Ulrike Fischer wrote: > lualatex has not problems to hyphenate geißeln and imho it uses the > same patterns: Well, "LUATEX uses a finite state hash to match the patterns against the word to be hyphenated.", so it would seem to me that LuaTeX's behaviour cannot be considered as normative. ** Phil. -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Am Thu, 9 Jan 2014 09:16:00 + schrieb Philip Taylor:
> Ulrike Fischer wrote:
>
>>> but I cannot understand why geißeln is
>>> not hyphenated. Both babel and polyglossia set \lefthyphenmin and
>>> \righthyphenmin to 2, thus hyphenation is allowed.
>>
>> Yes this is quite curious. Hyphenation before a ß seems to be
>> suppressed.
>
> Would that not simply be a question of patterns ?
lualatex has not problems to hyphenate geißeln and imho it uses the
same patterns:
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage[ngerman]{babel}
\usepackage{fontspec}
\begin{document}
\parbox{1cm}{geißeln geißeln geißeln geißeln geißeln geißeln}
\parbox{0.5cm}{wußte wußte wußte wußte wußte wußte}
\end{document}
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Ulrike Fischer wrote: >> but I cannot understand why geißeln is >> not hyphenated. Both babel and polyglossia set \lefthyphenmin and >> \righthyphenmin to 2, thus hyphenation is allowed. > > Yes this is quite curious. Hyphenation before a ß seems to be > suppressed. Would that not simply be a question of patterns ? ** Phil. -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Am Thu, 9 Jan 2014 01:03:29 +0100 schrieb Zdenek Wagner:
> Apparently something strange is done inside babel, with babel in xetex
> I get the same result as you. I tried the following file using
> polyglossia:
>
> \documentclass{article}
> \usepackage{polyglossia}
> \setdefaultlanguage{german}
> \usepackage{xltxtra}
> \begin{document}
> \showhyphens{geißeln}
> \showhyphens{wußte}
> \showthe\lefthyphenmin
> \showthe\righthyphenmin
> \end{document}
> At least it can hyphenate wußte
Because polyglossia uses the new spelling patterns. If you use
ngerman for babel it would hyphenate wußte too, and with
\setdefaultlanguage[spelling=old]{german} polyglossia doesn't
hyphenate wußte.
> but I cannot understand why geißeln is
> not hyphenated. Both babel and polyglossia set \lefthyphenmin and
> \righthyphenmin to 2, thus hyphenation is allowed.
Yes this is quite curious. Hyphenation before a ß seems to be
suppressed. But it works without problems if one add hyphenations
exceptions. \hyphenation{gei-ßeln}
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
2014/1/8 Georg Pfeiffer :
> Am Mi 08 Jan 2014 17:02:25 schrieb Zdenek Wagner:
>> \showthe\catcode`\ß and \showthe\lccode`\ß
>
> The catcode of ß seems to be 11 in XeTeX and 13 in TeX, the lccode 223
> rsp. 227.
>
I forgot that you use inputenc to convert from UTF-8. In such a case ß
is not a character but a sequence of two characters the first of which
is active.
Apparently something strange is done inside babel, with babel in xetex
I get the same result as you. I tried the following file using
polyglossia:
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{polyglossia}
\setdefaultlanguage{german}
\usepackage{xltxtra}
\begin{document}
\showhyphens{geißeln}
\showhyphens{wußte}
\showthe\lefthyphenmin
\showthe\righthyphenmin
\end{document}
The result is:
*** \showhyphens: ***
Underfull \hbox (badness 1) detected at line 6
\EU1/lmr/m/n/10 geißeln
*
*** \showhyphens: ***
Underfull \hbox (badness 1) detected at line 7
\EU1/lmr/m/n/10 wuß-te
*
At least it can hyphenate wußte but I cannot understand why geißeln is
not hyphenated. Both babel and polyglossia set \lefthyphenmin and
\righthyphenmin to 2, thus hyphenation is allowed.
> Georg
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Am Mi 08 Jan 2014 17:02:25 schrieb Zdenek Wagner: > \showthe\catcode`\ß and \showthe\lccode`\ß The catcode of ß seems to be 11 in XeTeX and 13 in TeX, the lccode 223 rsp. 227. Georg signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Subscriptions, Archive, and List information, etc.: http://tug.org/mailman/listinfo/xetex
Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
Am Mi 08 Jan 2014 17:02:25 schrieb Zdenek Wagner:
> What do \showthe\catcode`\ß and \showthe\lccode`\ß display?
XeTeX says:
> 11.
\showthe
l.8 \showthe
\lccode`\ß
> 223.
\let
l.9 \end{document}
(./minxe.aux) )
(see the transcript file for additional information)
No pages of output.
Transcript written on minxe.log.
LaTeX exited abnormally with code 1 at Wed Jan 8 17:52:08
pdftex:
> 13.
\protect
l.8 \showthe\catcode`\ß
! Package inputenc Error: Keyboard character used is undefined
(inputenc)in inputencoding `utf8'.
See the inputenc package documentation for explanation.
Type H for immediate help.
...
l.8 \showthe\catcode`\ß
> 227.
\protect
l.9 \showthe\lccode`\ß
! Package inputenc Error: Keyboard character used is undefined
(inputenc)in inputencoding `utf8'.
See the inputenc package documentation for explanation.
Type H for immediate help.
...
l.9 \showthe\lccode`\ß
(./mintex.aux) )
(see the transcript file for additional information)
No pages of output.
Transcript written on mintex.log.
LaTeX exited abnormally with code 1 at Wed Jan 8 17:49:55
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Re: [XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
What do \showthe\catcode`\ß and \showthe\lccode`\ß display?
2014/1/8 Georg Pfeiffer :
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi,
>
> why does XeTeX (sometimes) suppress hyphenation round around an "ß",
> where TeX does not (minimal examples following)?
>
> Georg
>
>
> XeTeX:
> - --8<---cut here---start->8---
> \documentclass{article}
> \usepackage[german]{babel}
> \usepackage{xltxtra}
> \begin{document}
> \showhyphens{geißeln}
> \showhyphens{wußte}
> \end{document}
> - --8<---cut here---end--->8---
>
> - --8<---cut here---start->8---
> This is XeTeX, Version 3.1415926-2.4-0.9998 (TeX Live 2012/Debian)
> (format=xelatex 2014.1.2) 8 JAN 2014 08:18
> entering extended mode
> restricted \write18 enabled.
> %&-line parsing enabled.
> **\input minxe.tex
>
> ...
>
> *** \showhyphens: ***
>
> Underfull \hbox (badness 1) detected at line 5
> \EU1/lmr/m/n/10 geißeln
> []
>
> *
>
>
> *** \showhyphens: ***
>
> Underfull \hbox (badness 1) detected at line 6
> \EU1/lmr/m/n/10 wußte
> []
>
> *
>
> ...
>
> - --8<---cut here---end--->8---
>
>
> PdfTeX:
> - --8<---cut here---start->8---
> \documentclass{article}
> \usepackage[T1]{fontenc}
> \usepackage[utf8]{inputenc}
> \usepackage[german]{babel}
> \begin{document}
> \showhyphens{geißeln}
> \showhyphens{wußte}
> \end{document}
> - --8<---cut here---end--->8---
>
> - --8<---cut here---start->8---
> This is pdfTeX, Version 3.1415926-2.4-1.40.13 (TeX Live 2012/Debian)
> (format=pdflatex 2014.1.2) 8 JAN 2014 08:20
> entering extended mode
> restricted \write18 enabled.
>
> ...
>
> Underfull \hbox (badness 1) in paragraph at lines 6--6
> [] \T1/cmr/m/n/10 gei-ßeln
>
> Underfull \hbox (badness 1) in paragraph at lines 7--7
> [] \T1/cmr/m/n/10 wuß-te
>
> ...
>
> - --8<---cut here---end--->8---
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAlLNA0UACgkQeekUveeeVovOYACgnLpF2O9qrA9oN9cSvkdDQkP+
> KdYAnihFB0iZ9OG6YbZgdmM0Yf86SgXq
> =L+EJ
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
>
>
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[XeTeX] Hyphenation around „ß“
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
Hi,
why does XeTeX (sometimes) suppress hyphenation round around an „ß“,
where TeX does not (minimal examples following)?
Georg
XeTeX:
- --8<---cut here---start->8---
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage[german]{babel}
\usepackage{xltxtra}
\begin{document}
\showhyphens{geißeln}
\showhyphens{wußte}
\end{document}
- --8<---cut here---end--->8---
- --8<---cut here---start->8---
This is XeTeX, Version 3.1415926-2.4-0.9998 (TeX Live 2012/Debian)
(format=xelatex 2014.1.2) 8 JAN 2014 08:18
entering extended mode
restricted \write18 enabled.
%&-line parsing enabled.
**\input minxe.tex
…
*** \showhyphens: ***
Underfull \hbox (badness 1) detected at line 5
\EU1/lmr/m/n/10 geißeln
[]
*
*** \showhyphens: ***
Underfull \hbox (badness 1) detected at line 6
\EU1/lmr/m/n/10 wußte
[]
*
…
- --8<---cut here---end--->8---
PdfTeX:
- --8<---cut here---start->8---
\documentclass{article}
\usepackage[T1]{fontenc}
\usepackage[utf8]{inputenc}
\usepackage[german]{babel}
\begin{document}
\showhyphens{geißeln}
\showhyphens{wußte}
\end{document}
- --8<---cut here---end--->8---
- --8<---cut here---start->8---
This is pdfTeX, Version 3.1415926-2.4-1.40.13 (TeX Live 2012/Debian)
(format=pdflatex 2014.1.2) 8 JAN 2014 08:20
entering extended mode
restricted \write18 enabled.
…
Underfull \hbox (badness 1) in paragraph at lines 6--6
[] \T1/cmr/m/n/10 gei-ßeln
Underfull \hbox (badness 1) in paragraph at lines 7--7
[] \T1/cmr/m/n/10 wuß-te
…
- --8<---cut here---end--->8---
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)
iEYEARECAAYFAlLNA0UACgkQeekUveeeVovOYACgnLpF2O9qrA9oN9cSvkdDQkP+
KdYAnihFB0iZ9OG6YbZgdmM0Yf86SgXq
=L+EJ
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
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