date:20130613

JMJM,

No, no.  To me, that's like saying that food, or sleep, is the most efficient 
medium.  They must be in balance.

The Ch'an way is just to apply Ch'an methods in our practice.  Steer clear of 
Attachments!, like food, sleep, or Chi.  But don't eschew them!: Eat, sleep, 
and let energy flow; and be healthy.

I'm sure we don't disagree, Donald.  It's just a matter of degree of emphasis.  
My Shifu was very pure and conservative, and did not wish to emphasize 
folk-religion, nor Taoist influences.  He was all done with that, as a 
long-time monk, and could see the way ahead for Ch'an in Taiwan and the world 
for the future.  He could see it needed reform, and so he set about providing 
it.  Yet, we all knew a good deal about Chi, by personal experience with our 
traditional and original practice of Ch'an, and awakening.  We had no need to 
speak about it, ever.  Except perhaps in cases where people became sick, or who 
were very feeble when they first came to practice, and our Shifu helped them 
rebuild their health impressively.

Still, physical practice, along with Zazen, is the most effective route toward 
awakening, when working with Teacher and sangha.  And, when practicing at home. 
 I teach these methods as Sheng Yen taught, and have put good emphasis on them 
since 1980, in New York and elsewhere.  Hail!

I'm still in training, to be better at leading 7-day Ch'an retreat.

--Joe

> è¦ºå¦ç²¾æ ï¼JMJMï¼  wrote:
>
> Hi Joe,
> 
> Here is some information about my teacher and lineage.  85th patriach 
> since Shakyamuni. 58th since Bodhdharma, 48th Linji. 
> http://www.buddhachan.org/en/
> 
> Me in the organization: http://www.buddhachan.org/en/sharings
> 
> Yes, like everything else, chi is just a medium.  But chi is the most 
> efficient medium.

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Re: [Zen] Bloodstream Sutra

Edgar,

They are not irrelevant.  They are there (here) to help others.

(even perhaps as you are wont to try to do).

Our way is a way of sharing and compassion.  Such is a Bodhisattva's gig.

--Joe

> Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> JM,
> 
> Exactly, once you know Buddha Nature, the doctrines, teachers and teachings 
> are all irrelevant.
> 
> And since Buddha Nature is everywhere in everything there is no need for any 
> of that. Just realize it!

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Re: [Zen] Bloodstream Sutra

JM,

Exactly, once you know Buddha Nature, the doctrines, teachers and teachings are 
all irrelevant.

And since Buddha Nature is everywhere in everything there is no need for any of 
that. Just realize it!

Edgar




On Jun 13, 2013, at 7:27 PM, 覺妙精明 （JMJM） wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> As you know, I have continuously emphasizes the importance of cultivating our 
> chi.  Because the universe runs on chi.  Once our chi is purified, then we 
> will see lights, because light is the purest form of chi.  
> 
> And my Teacher said repeatedly, "we meet our self nature, when we constantly 
> see a white light emitting from our heart chakra."
> 
> Below I have translated Bloodstream Sutra by Bodhidharma relating to "seeing 
> the light".
> 
> It's never too late.  Please begin your meditation today by cultivating your 
> chi.
> 
> With palms together,
> JM
> *
> 若夢中頻見異境，輒不用 疑，皆是自心起故，不從外來。夢若見光明出現，過於日輪，即餘習頓盡，法界性見。
> 
> 若有此事，即是成道之因。唯自知，不可向人說。或靜園林中行住坐臥，眼見光明，或大或小，莫與人說，亦不得取，亦是自性光明。
> 
> 或夜靜暗中行住 坐臥，眼睹光明，與晝無異，不得怪，並是自心欲明顯。
> 
> 或夜夢中見星月分明，亦自心諸緣欲息，亦不得向人說。夢若昏昏，猶如陰暗中行，亦是自心 煩惱障重，亦自知。
> 
> 若見本性，不用讀經念佛，廣學多知無益，神識轉昏。
> 
> 設教只為標心；若識心，何用看教？
> 
> If, as in a dream, you see a light brighter than the sun, your remaining 
> habits will suddenly come to an end and the nature of reality will be 
> revealed. 
> Such an occurrence serves as the basis for enlightenment. But this is 
> something only you know. You can't explain it to others. Or if, while you're 
> walking, standing, sitting, or lying in a quiet grove, you see a light, 
> regardless of whether it's bright or dim, don't tell others and don't attach 
> on it. It's the light of your self nature.
> 
> Or if, while you're walking, standing, sitting, or lying in the stillness and 
> darkness of night, everything appears as though in daylight, don't be 
> startled. It's your self nature about to reveal itself.
> 
> Or if, while you're dreaming at night, you see the moon and stars in all 
> their clarity, it means the workings of your attachments are about to end. 
> But don't tell others. And if your dreams aren't clear, as if you were 
> walking in the dark, because your mind is masked by worries. This too is 
> something you would know. 
> 
> If you meet your self nature, you don't need to read sutras or chant Buddhas. 
> Erudition and Knowledge are not only useless but also cloud your inner 
> divine. Doctrines are only for pointing to the heart. Once you know your 
> heart, why pay attention to doctrines?
> 
> 
>

Re: [Zen] Re: Bloodstream Sutra

2013-06-13 Thread 覺妙精明（JMJM）

Hi Joe,

Here is some information about my teacher and lineage.  85th patriach 
since Shakyamuni. 58th since Bodhdharma, 48th Linji. 
http://www.buddhachan.org/en/

Me in the organization: http://www.buddhachan.org/en/sharings

Yes, like everything else, chi is just a medium.  But chi is the most 
efficient medium.

JM

On 6/13/2013 5:14 PM, Joe wrote:

JMJM,

Who is your teacher? Sorry, I forget the name, Donald.

I agree that our practice must be largely physical to be authentic.

Others who only read from books, or claim to "figure-things-out", are 
just barking at a false Moon; their baying is shrill, inhuman, and 
ill. Thanks for emphasizing the better -- and only -- way.

Of course, Chi need not be worked on consciously or intentionally. It 
comes along for the ride, as, how could it not? It is the reverse side 
of the tapestry: it need *not* be both sides! In fact, I would caution 
against making it both sides: that is Taoism, instead and not 
Buddhadharma. There's nothing to hold on to: not even Chi, in our Way.

By "our", I do not mean possessively: I mean to share this, and all 
its fruits. I mean, we already do. So I say "our". Others may like to 
"opt out" of this, and act-out somewhere else. Let's let them go!

Thanks, posting,

--Joe

> JMJMï¼‰  wrote:
>
> Dear All,
>
> As you know, I have continuously emphasizes the importance of
> cultivating our chi. [snip]

[Zen] Re: Bloodstream Sutra

JMJM,

Who is your teacher?   Sorry, I forget the name, Donald.  

I agree that our practice must be largely physical to be authentic.  

Others who only read from books, or claim to "figure-things-out", are just 
barking at a false Moon; their baying is shrill, inhuman, and ill.  Thanks for 
emphasizing the better -- and only -- way.

Of course, Chi need not be worked on consciously or intentionally.  It comes 
along for the ride, as, how could it not?  It is the reverse side of the 
tapestry: it need *not* be both sides!  In fact, I would caution against making 
it both sides: that is Taoism, instead and not Buddhadharma.  There's nothing 
to hold on to: not even Chi, in our Way.

By "our", I do not mean possessively: I mean to share this, and all its fruits. 
 I mean, we already do.  So I say "our".  Others may like to "opt out" of this, 
and act-out somewhere else.  Let's let them go!

Thanks, posting,

--Joe

> JMJMï¼  wrote:
>
> Dear All,
> 
> As you know, I have continuously emphasizes the importance of 
> cultivating our chi. [snip]

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As you know, I have continuously emphasizes the importance of
cultivating our chi. Because the universe runs on chi. Once our chi is
purified, then we will see lights, because light is the purest form of chi.

And my Teacher said repeatedly, "we meet our self nature, when we
constantly see a white light emitting from our heart chakra."

Below I have translated Bloodstream Sutra by Bodhidharma relating to
"seeing the light".

It's never too late. Please begin your meditation today by cultivating
your chi.

With palms together,
JM
*
若夢中頻見異境，輒不用 疑，皆是自心起故，不從外來。夢若見光明出現，過於
日輪，即餘習頓盡，法界性見。

若有此事，即是成道之因。唯自知，不可向人說。或靜園林中行住坐臥，眼見光
明，或大或小，莫與人說，亦不得取，亦是自性光明。

或夜靜暗中行住 坐臥，眼睹光明，與晝無異，不得怪，並是自心欲明顯。

或夜夢中見星月分明，亦自心諸緣欲息，亦不得向人說。夢若昏昏，猶如陰暗中
行，亦是自心 煩惱障重，亦自知。

若見本性，不用讀經念佛，廣學多知無益，神識轉昏。

設教只為標心；若識心，何用看教？
*
If, as in a dream, you see a light brighter than the sun, your remaining
habits will suddenly come to an end and the nature of reality will be
revealed.

*Such an occurrence serves as the basis for enlightenment. But this is
something only you know. You can't explain it to others. Or if, while
you're walking, standing, sitting, or lying in a quiet grove, you see a
light, regardless of whether it's bright or dim, don't tell others and
don't attach on it. It's the light of your self nature.*

*Or if, while you're walking, standing, sitting, or lying in the
stillness and darkness of night, everything appears as though in
daylight, don't be startled. It's your self nature about to reveal itself.*

*Or if, while you're dreaming at night, you see the moon and stars in
all their clarity, it means the workings of your attachments are about
to end. But don't tell others. And if your dreams aren't clear, as if
you were walking in the dark, because your mind is masked by worries.
This too is something you would know.

*If you meet your self nature, you don't need to read sutras or chant
Buddhas. Erudition and Knowledge are not only useless but also cloud
your inner divine. Doctrines are only for pointing to the heart. Once
you know your heart, why pay attention to doctrines?*

[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad

Edgar, hi, again,

Yes, I put it this way to show who's "in", and who's "out".

Anything to needle you and give you occasion to study-up on our sect.  You've 
clearly never done your homework, here, nor done a proper study with teacher 
and sangha.  But everyone here who has in fact practiced -- and does practice 
-- knows this already from how you've carried on in the bulk of what you've 
written, here.  We are not amused.  ;-)  But, sympathetic.

My voice is not official; it is most congenial.  And encouraging!

This Walter Cronkite of the Zen Forum thus signs off:

"That's the way it is!"

cheers,

--Joe

> Edgar Owen  wrote:
> 
> Our? Who's our? Who do you think you are the official voice for? 

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Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad

Joe,

Our? Who's our? Who do you think you are the official voice for? The yam leaf 
sect?

Edgar




On Jun 13, 2013, at 4:54 PM, Joe wrote:

> Hi, Edgar,
> 
> Parents and family teach us a lot more than thinking.
> 
> I went to a Zen teacher to teach me Zen practice. And learned with others, 
> there. It's our way. ;-)
> 
> (the Zen school has always emphasized practicing together).
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >
> > Bill and Joe,
> > 
> > Yes, but your parents are supposed to teach you how to think rationally, 
> > not teach you Zen.
> 
>

[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad

Hi, Edgar,

Parents and family teach us a lot more than thinking.

I went to a Zen teacher to teach me Zen practice.  And learned with others, 
there.  It's our way.  ;-)

(the Zen school has always emphasized practicing together).

--Joe

> Edgar Owen  wrote:
>
> Bill and Joe,
> 
> Yes, but your parents are supposed to teach you how to think rationally, not 
> teach you Zen.

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Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad

Bill and Joe,

Yes, but your parents are supposed to teach you how to think rationally, not 
teach you Zen.

Apparently the've failed on both accounts?
:-)

Edgar



On Jun 13, 2013, at 2:40 PM, Joe wrote:

> Bill!,
> 
> Well observed.
> 
> Those who undervalue the benefits we derive from being taught by parents and 
> teachers and by Culture reminds me of the efforts by some who engage in 
> electioneering. They sometimes try to enhance to an extreme their semblance 
> of independence and self-reliance.
> 
> A funny instance of this came up during a discussion in the midst of the 
> selection of candidates during the recent Presidential campaign in USA. One 
> commentator observed that a certain candidate seemed to want people to 
> believe that:
> 
> "...he himself had built the log cabin that he was born in".
> 
> ;-)
> 
> Having a good laugh again today, recalling this, in the present discussion 
> about Zen teaching and teachers.
> 
> --Joe
> 
> > "Bill!"  wrote:
> >
> > Edgar,
> > 
> > You asked, "Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born?"
> > 
> > I may have done that spontaneously but I may have needed a slap on my butt 
> > to start that process. I don't remember.
> 
>

[Zen] Re: Streams, baraka, evolution, counter-culture

Salik,

Good to see you again!

--Joe

> "salik888"  wrote:
>
> The People of the Secret
> 
> From The Encyclopedia of Unsolved Mysteries - Colin Wilson & Damon Wilson 
> 
> 
> Not all 'occult teachings' claim to originate with disembodied entities; 
> others are accompanied by the claim that they have been preserved down the 
> ages by secret societies or brotherhoods.

[snip]

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[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad

Bill!,

Well observed.

Those who undervalue the benefits we derive from being taught by parents and 
teachers and by Culture reminds me of the efforts by some who engage in 
electioneering.  They sometimes try to enhance to an extreme their semblance of 
independence and self-reliance.

A funny instance of this came up during a discussion in the midst of the 
selection of candidates during the recent Presidential campaign in USA.  One 
commentator observed that a certain candidate seemed to want people to believe 
that:

 "...he himself had built the log cabin that he was born in".

;-)

Having a good laugh again today, recalling this, in the present discussion 
about Zen teaching and teachers.

--Joe

> "Bill!"  wrote:
>
> Edgar,
> 
> You asked, "Did you need a teacher to start breathing when you were born?"
> 
> I may have done that spontaneously but I may have needed a slap on my butt to 
> start that process.  I don't remember.

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[Zen] Streams, baraka, evolution, counter-culture

2013-06-13 Thread salik888

The People of the Secret



>From The Encyclopedia of Unsolved Mysteries - Colin Wilson & Damon Wilson 


Not all 'occult teachings' claim to originate with disembodied entities; others 
are accompanied by the claim that they have been preserved down the ages by 
secret societies or brotherhoods. 
George Gurdjieff, one of the most original thinkers of the twentieth century, 
spent much of his youth in search of a certain 'Sarmoung Brotherhood', and 
claimed to have received his basic teachings from a monastic brotherhood in the 
northern Himalayas. The essence of Gurdjieff's teaching consists in the notion 
that ordinary consciousness is a form of 'sleep', that nearly all human 
activities are entirely 'mechanical', and that if man wishes to cease to be 
mechanical he has to make a tremendous effort of will. But books like In Search 
of the Miraculous (by Gurdjieff's leading follower P.D. Ouspensky) make it 
clear that behind Gurdjieffs 'psychological' teachings lay a highly complex 
cosmological system, which has no obvious relevance to the psychological 
teachings, and which it seems unlikely that Gurdjieff invented himself. 
This cosmology is further elaborated in the four-volume work of another leading 
Gurdjieff follower, J.G.Bennett, The Dramatic Universe, which is founded on the 
assertion that 'there is a class of cosmic essences called Demiurges that is 
responsible for maintaining the universal order', and that these Demiurgic 
Intelligences 'work upon time scales far exceeding the span of a human life'. 
Bennett calls the universe 'dramatic' to underline his sense of the importance 
of free will; because the universe is not dead and predetermined, the final 
outcome is uncertain. 'The key to the whole scheme is will-time or Hyparxis. 
This is the region in which the will is free to make decisions that introduce 
something new and uncaused into the world process.' The demiurges have far 
greater power than man to introduce something new and uncaused into the world 
process; but they are not infallible. Although their main task is 'to guide the 
evolution of the world from its first lifeless beginning', they have 'guided 
the process by experiment and trial, sometimes making mistakes and retracing 
their steps, sometimes making great leaps forward, as when life came out of the 
ocean and land creatures began.' Bennett adds that Gurdjieff calls the 
demiurges 'angels', 'but this had so many meanings that it is best avoided'.
The existence of a secret tradition of hidden teachings is hinted at in Idries 
Shah's book The Sufis, and it was in a review of this book in the London 
Evening News that its literary editor, Edward Campbell, wrote:For many 
centuries there has been a strange legend in the East. It suggests that in some 
hidden centre, perhaps in the Highlands of Central Asia, there exists a colony 
of men possessing exceptional powers. This centre acts, in some respects at 
least, as the secret government of the world.Some aspects of this legend came 
to the West during the Crusades; the idea was renewed in Rosicrucian guise in 
1614; it was restated with variations last century by Mme Blavatsky and the 
French diplomat Jacoliot; was suggested again by the English author Talbot 
Mundy, and most recently by the Mongolian traveller Ossendowski in 1918.
In the mysterious Shangri-la of this legend, certain men, evolved beyond the 
ordinary human situation, act as the regents of powers beyond this planet.
Through lower echelons - who mingle unsuspected in ordinary walks of life, both 
East and West - they act at critical stages of history, contriving results 
necessary to keep the whole evolution of the earth in step with events in the 
solar system.
And in his book The People of the Secret(1983), Campbell (under the punning 
pseudonym Ernest Scott) goes on to suggest that 'in the first quarter of the 
20th century, Western science had not only reached a critical stage but an 
impasse and that, simultaneously, material possibly capable of resolving that 
situation appeared unobtrusively from the East'. He goes on to suggest that 
'this interpretation derives from a source superior to, and qualitatively 
different from, ordinary intellect', and that 'similar "intervention" occurs at 
critical points in human history and has done so in all cultures and all ages 
in a form appropriate to the moment'. Campbell refers to the sources of this 
influence as 'the Tradition', and suggests that between 1920 and 1950 part of 
the intention appears to have been to 'reveal publicly the mechanism of the 
Tradition's own operation'. And he mentions that two men who were in contact 
with 'the Tradition' were J.G.Bennett and Rodney Collin, both followers of 
Gurdjieff.
Campbell goes on to suggest a close analogy between the human organism and a 
civilized culture.
A sperm cell originates a new individual. Suppose a conscious man originates a 
new culture. Suppose that within life there are a few men, unsuspected an

Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad

Brilliant!Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad

#5!

Edgar



On Jun 13, 2013, at 10:18 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> Yeh, but who's counting?...
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
> 
> From: Edgar Owen ; 
> To: ; 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad 
> Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 2:03:24 PM 
> 
>  
> Mike,
> 
> 
> And your ego just commented on it for the 3rd or 4th time this morning...
> 
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 13, 2013, at 9:12 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> 
>>  
>> Edgar,
>> 
>> And yet your ego's moved enough to comment on it.
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
>> 
>> From: Edgar Owen ; 
>> To: ; 
>> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad 
>> Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 12:24:26 PM 
>> 
>>  
>> Mike,
>> 
>> 
>> Again a clever response that allows your ego to pat itself on the back 
>> rather than get out of the way...
>> 
>> Edgar
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Jun 13, 2013, at 2:40 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
>> 
>>>  
>>> Bill!,
>>> 
>>> And yet here is Edgar trying to 'teach' us his theory and where we're all 
>>> going wrong.. Oh, the sweet irony!
>>> 
>>> Mike
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
>>> 
>>> From: Bill! ; 
>>> To: ; 
>>> Subject: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad 
>>> Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 6:27:35 AM 
>>> 
>>>  
>>> Edgar,
>>> 
>>> There is nothing for which a human being NEEDS as teacher. You could 
>>> conceivably invent calculus on your own if you came to a situation where 
>>> you needed it. However most humans do learn from teachers starting with 
>>> your parents. It saves a lot of time and effort because you don't have to 
>>> 'invent the wheel' every generation. The body of knowledge is passed 
>>> through teaching.
>>> 
>>> It's no different with zen. A good teacher can help you get started and 
>>> shepherd you though difficult patches. He/she cannot learn things for you 
>>> but can certainly help you learn. And yes, there does come a time when 
>>> you've exhausted your teachers' ability to assist and then must go our on 
>>> your own, but you do so from that very substantial base of your learning.
>>> 
>>> ...Bill!
>>> 
>>> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > Bill,
>>> > 
>>> > Yes, in the limited teacher student context. But as I've explained before 
>>> > reality is the ONLY real teacher. Human teachers may or may not serve as 
>>> > little pieces of reality that facilitate pointing out Buddha Nature.
>>> > 
>>> > But there is NO NEED AT ALL to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan. 
>>> > You either realize Buddha Nature or you don't. If you do the teacher is 
>>> > no longer relevant
>>> > 
>>> > One demonstrates Buddha Nature to Buddha Nature by realizing Buddha 
>>> > Nature. NO teacher necessary other than reality itself.
>>> > 
>>> > Only dependent personalities think teachers are a necessity. Did you need 
>>> > a teacher to start breathing when you were born?
>>> > 
>>> > Edgar
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > 
>>> > On Jun 11, 2013, at 3:43 AM, Bill! wrote:
>>> > 
>>> > > Edgar,
>>> > > 
>>> > > Yes, demonstrating Buddha Nature is the 'answer' or 'solution' to all 
>>> > > koans. And yes, that could involve pointing, or an utterance, or some 
>>> > > other action or even silence and no action. And yes, you do have to 
>>> > > 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan - at least if you want to gain 
>>> > > his/her verification that you have passed the koan.
>>> > > 
>>> > > After you have passed the koan there was at least in my case then some 
>>> > > rational conversation about the structure of the koan and on what it 
>>> > > was specifically designed to focus. These discussions were intended to 
>>> > > prepare you for becoming a teacher.
>>> > > 
>>> > > ...Bill!
>>> > > 
>>> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>>> > > >
>>> > > > Bill,
>>> > > > 
>>> > > > There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha 
>>> > > > Nature. So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to 
>>> > > > point to anything at all and convincingly bring attention to its 
>>> > > > Buddha Nature.
>>> > > > 
>>> > > > But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to 
>>> > > > that realization. Reality itself is ultimately the ONLY koan even 
>>> > > > in its seemingly most insignificant aspect...
>>> > > > 
>>> > > > Edgar
>>> > > > 
>>> > > > 
>>> > > > 
>>> > > > On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Bill! wrote:
>>> > > > 
>>> > > > > Edgar,
>>> > > > > 
>>> > > > > I agree with Joe here.
>>> > > > > 
>>> > > > > All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically 
>>> > > > > designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha 
>>> > > > > Nature)require a demonstration rather than an explanation. For 
>>> > > > > example my first koan was Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was 
>>> > > > > to "BRING me Mu" and "SHOW me Mu" - certainly not "explain what 
>>> > > > > Joshu's answer 'Mu' means".
>>> > > > > 
>>> > > > > In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstr

Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad

Yeh, but who's counting?...Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad

Bill,

As if reality didn't slap you around all the time?

The problem with you guy's insistence on having a teacher is it easily becomes 
a sop and and an excuse for not doing the work yourself.

Insistence on a teacher is the sign of a dependent personality, and as long as 
you wait for a teacher to enlighten you you will never be enlightened...

There is only one teacher and that is reality itself Sometimes it helps for 
someone else to point to reality to help you recognize it. But for many people 
so long as they fix their gaze on the teacher they are blind to the reality all 
around them.

Edgar

On Jun 13, 2013, at 9:49 AM, Bill! wrote:

> Mike and Edgar,
> 
> I thought it was a good response also.
> 
> It expanded on Edgar's simile of breathing adding the caveat I wanted - which 
> is most need a little slap on the butt to get them started. I think it is the 
> same with zen practice. A good teacher can certainly give you that slap and 
> more.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
> >
> > Oh, come on! It was a good comeback.MikeSent from 
> > Yahoo! Mail for iPad
> >
> 
>

Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad

Mike,

And your ego just commented on it for the 3rd or 4th time this morning...


Edgar



On Jun 13, 2013, at 9:12 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> Edgar,
> 
> And yet your ego's moved enough to comment on it.
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
> 
> From: Edgar Owen ; 
> To: ; 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad 
> Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 12:24:26 PM 
> 
>  
> Mike,
> 
> 
> Again a clever response that allows your ego to pat itself on the back rather 
> than get out of the way...
> 
> Edgar
> 
> 
> 
> On Jun 13, 2013, at 2:40 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
> 
>>  
>> Bill!,
>> 
>> And yet here is Edgar trying to 'teach' us his theory and where we're all 
>> going wrong.. Oh, the sweet irony!
>> 
>> Mike
>> 
>> 
>> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
>> 
>> From: Bill! ; 
>> To: ; 
>> Subject: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad 
>> Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 6:27:35 AM 
>> 
>>  
>> Edgar,
>> 
>> There is nothing for which a human being NEEDS as teacher. You could 
>> conceivably invent calculus on your own if you came to a situation where you 
>> needed it. However most humans do learn from teachers starting with your 
>> parents. It saves a lot of time and effort because you don't have to 'invent 
>> the wheel' every generation. The body of knowledge is passed through 
>> teaching.
>> 
>> It's no different with zen. A good teacher can help you get started and 
>> shepherd you though difficult patches. He/she cannot learn things for you 
>> but can certainly help you learn. And yes, there does come a time when 
>> you've exhausted your teachers' ability to assist and then must go our on 
>> your own, but you do so from that very substantial base of your learning.
>> 
>> ...Bill!
>> 
>> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>> >
>> > Bill,
>> > 
>> > Yes, in the limited teacher student context. But as I've explained before 
>> > reality is the ONLY real teacher. Human teachers may or may not serve as 
>> > little pieces of reality that facilitate pointing out Buddha Nature.
>> > 
>> > But there is NO NEED AT ALL to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan. 
>> > You either realize Buddha Nature or you don't. If you do the teacher is no 
>> > longer relevant
>> > 
>> > One demonstrates Buddha Nature to Buddha Nature by realizing Buddha 
>> > Nature. NO teacher necessary other than reality itself.
>> > 
>> > Only dependent personalities think teachers are a necessity. Did you need 
>> > a teacher to start breathing when you were born?
>> > 
>> > Edgar
>> > 
>> > 
>> > 
>> > On Jun 11, 2013, at 3:43 AM, Bill! wrote:
>> > 
>> > > Edgar,
>> > > 
>> > > Yes, demonstrating Buddha Nature is the 'answer' or 'solution' to all 
>> > > koans. And yes, that could involve pointing, or an utterance, or some 
>> > > other action or even silence and no action. And yes, you do have to 
>> > > 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan - at least if you want to gain 
>> > > his/her verification that you have passed the koan.
>> > > 
>> > > After you have passed the koan there was at least in my case then some 
>> > > rational conversation about the structure of the koan and on what it was 
>> > > specifically designed to focus. These discussions were intended to 
>> > > prepare you for becoming a teacher.
>> > > 
>> > > ...Bill!
>> > > 
>> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
>> > > >
>> > > > Bill,
>> > > > 
>> > > > There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha 
>> > > > Nature. So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to 
>> > > > point to anything at all and convincingly bring attention to its 
>> > > > Buddha Nature.
>> > > > 
>> > > > But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to 
>> > > > that realization. Reality itself is ultimately the ONLY koan even 
>> > > > in its seemingly most insignificant aspect...
>> > > > 
>> > > > Edgar
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > 
>> > > > On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Bill! wrote:
>> > > > 
>> > > > > Edgar,
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > I agree with Joe here.
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically 
>> > > > > designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require 
>> > > > > a demonstration rather than an explanation. For example my first 
>> > > > > koan was Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was to "BRING me Mu" 
>> > > > > and "SHOW me Mu" - certainly not "explain what Joshu's answer 'Mu' 
>> > > > > means".
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, 
>> > > > > there is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, 
>> > > > > although these discussions are usually focused on just what the koan 
>> > > > > is specifically designed to accomplish rather than a discussion on 
>> > > > > the meaning of the actual content.
>> > > > > 
>> > > > > This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was 
>> > > > > with two different zen masters - al

[Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad

2013-06-13 Thread Bill!

Mike and Edgar,

I thought it was a good response also.

It expanded on Edgar's simile of breathing adding the caveat I wanted - which 
is most need a little slap on the butt to get them started.  I think it is the 
same with zen practice.  A good teacher can certainly give you that slap and 
more.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, uerusuboyo@... wrote:
>
> Oh, come on! It was a good comeback.MikeSent from 
> Yahoo! Mail for iPad
>

Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

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[Zen] Re: Jesus and Advaita

2013-06-13 Thread Bill!

Suresh,

As you probably know I believe Jesus was a fully enlightened teacher.  I think 
he just taught and spoke using the language of Judaism - much the way Buddha 
used the language of Hinduism.

Two book I liked are:

THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO ZEN which is a collection of writings by various 
authors including Alan Watts, and focused on the Gnostic Gospel of Thomas 
(which is not in the official Bible).
http://www.amazon.com/The-Gospel-According-Zen-Beyond/dp/0451627156

I also like THE MUSTARD SEED by Bagran Sri Rashneeh (AKA Osho) which also 
focused on the Gospel of Thomas.
http://www.amazon.com/Mustard-Seed-Bhagwan-Shree-Rajneesh/dp/B000NXJ71M

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, SURESH JAGADEESAN  wrote:
>
> Jesus and Advaita:-
> 
> HERE IS A COPY OF A MAIL RECEIVED FROM A FRIEND AND COMMENTS ARE WELCOME
> 
> Bible and christian quotes in the light of Advaita:-
> 
> Here an attempt is being made to interpret the parables of Jesus, in
> the light of the knowledge contained in the innumerable scriptures of
> our ancient land of Bharat. When interpreted thus, all sectarian ideas
> imposed on the teachings of Christ, such as rejecting all alternative
> paths, other than Christianity as false, will disappear. The illogical
> tenets imposed by the Church such as making it mandatory for the whole
> world to accept the person Jesus as their saviour, in order to be
> saved from the eternal suffering in hell, finds no place in the real
> teachings of Christ.
> 
> Christ's teachings are primarily concerned about the ultimate reality
> of the universe being one's real Self or consciousness.
> He necessitates the withdrawal of one's senses from the sense objects
> and relations of the world, so as to come into the eternal blissful
> state of being one with the Self, which he calls "Entering the Kingdom
> of Heaven".
> 
> Hindu Rishis have declared, "Ekam Sat, Viprah Bahuta Vadanti" which
> means "Truth is ONE; the learned people call it by different names".
> This is a statement made by the Rishis who have attained self realisation.
> The Rishi declares without an iota of doubt that Truth is one.
> They say this because they have fully realised it themselves.
> There is no scope for doubt.
> They say it with absolute conviction.
> They have seen the Truth themselves.
> Therefore they say, wherever the learned men are, they speak about
> this same Truth.
> Because there is no second Truth about which anyone can speak.
> Therefore the Rishi say, even though the learned men may use different
> names, they all speak about the same Truth.
> So whether you call it the `Kingdom of God', or you call it
> JeevanMukthi they all refer to the liberated state of the soul.
> 
> The teachings of Jesus are very much in accordance with the Advaita
> Vedanta philosophy contained in Vedic texts.
> Jesus does not speak about a Kingdom of God, which shall be
> established in a future time.
> In fact the Kingdom of God transcends time itself and one shall enter
> it by living in the present moment, by connecting to one's inner Self.
> Jesus says that in order to realise the Father one must detach oneself
> from this objective manifested world which is impermanent, and
> meditate on the Self.
> 
> Jesus is a spiritual master who has to be seen as a Self realised
> soul, a person who has attained the ultimate Goal prescribed in our
> scriptures.
> 
> The Text of the Gospel of Thomas
> 
> These are the secret sayings that the living Jesus spoke.
> 
> This opening words of this text, gives a very important clue.
> It says that the sayings are secret.
> If we study the teachings of Jesus, he himself says that Truth cannot
> be hidden and that it will reveal itself.
> There is nothing secret about the teachings of Christ, in the sense
> that it shouldn't be imparted to other people.
> 
> If someone wants to experience sweetness merely hearing the word sweet
> is not enough.
> He must eat sugar himself so as to experience sweetness.
> 
> And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings
> will not taste death."
> 
> Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find.
> 2When they find, they will be disturbed. 3When they are disturbed,
> they will marvel, 4and will rule over all."
> 
> This verse throws light on the knowledge of Jesus Christ about the
> ultimate reality behind the universe.
> These are the words of a real master, who has discovered the Truth himself.
> The words come from a man of absolute conviction, who does not have to
> think twice about what He is saying.
> Jesus instructs his followers that they should not stop seeking the
> Truth, until they find it.
> He says this because the path to self realisation is narrow and full of 
> thorns.
> 
> The Isavasya Upanishad says that Truth is hidden by a golden vessel.
> The golden vessel is this objective world, which is a powerful
> distraction for the seeker.
> The seeker is likely to be distracted by this golden vessel that he
> fails

Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad

Oh, come on! It was a good comeback.MikeSent from 
Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad

Edgar,And yet your ego's moved enough to comment on 
it.MikeSent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad

Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad

Mike,

Again a clever response that allows your ego to pat itself on the back rather 
than get out of the way...

Edgar



On Jun 13, 2013, at 2:40 AM, uerusub...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:

> Bill!,
> 
> And yet here is Edgar trying to 'teach' us his theory and where we're all 
> going wrong.. Oh, the sweet irony!
> 
> Mike
> 
> 
> Sent from Yahoo! Mail for iPad
> 
> From: Bill! ; 
> To: ; 
> Subject: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad 
> Sent: Thu, Jun 13, 2013 6:27:35 AM 
> 
>  
> Edgar,
> 
> There is nothing for which a human being NEEDS as teacher. You could 
> conceivably invent calculus on your own if you came to a situation where you 
> needed it. However most humans do learn from teachers starting with your 
> parents. It saves a lot of time and effort because you don't have to 'invent 
> the wheel' every generation. The body of knowledge is passed through teaching.
> 
> It's no different with zen. A good teacher can help you get started and 
> shepherd you though difficult patches. He/she cannot learn things for you but 
> can certainly help you learn. And yes, there does come a time when you've 
> exhausted your teachers' ability to assist and then must go our on your own, 
> but you do so from that very substantial base of your learning.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >
> > Bill,
> > 
> > Yes, in the limited teacher student context. But as I've explained before 
> > reality is the ONLY real teacher. Human teachers may or may not serve as 
> > little pieces of reality that facilitate pointing out Buddha Nature.
> > 
> > But there is NO NEED AT ALL to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan. 
> > You either realize Buddha Nature or you don't. If you do the teacher is no 
> > longer relevant
> > 
> > One demonstrates Buddha Nature to Buddha Nature by realizing Buddha Nature. 
> > NO teacher necessary other than reality itself.
> > 
> > Only dependent personalities think teachers are a necessity. Did you need a 
> > teacher to start breathing when you were born?
> > 
> > Edgar
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Jun 11, 2013, at 3:43 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > 
> > > Edgar,
> > > 
> > > Yes, demonstrating Buddha Nature is the 'answer' or 'solution' to all 
> > > koans. And yes, that could involve pointing, or an utterance, or some 
> > > other action or even silence and no action. And yes, you do have to 
> > > 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan - at least if you want to gain 
> > > his/her verification that you have passed the koan.
> > > 
> > > After you have passed the koan there was at least in my case then some 
> > > rational conversation about the structure of the koan and on what it was 
> > > specifically designed to focus. These discussions were intended to 
> > > prepare you for becoming a teacher.
> > > 
> > > ...Bill!
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bill,
> > > > 
> > > > There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha 
> > > > Nature. So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to point 
> > > > to anything at all and convincingly bring attention to its Buddha 
> > > > Nature.
> > > > 
> > > > But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to 
> > > > that realization. Reality itself is ultimately the ONLY koan even 
> > > > in its seemingly most insignificant aspect...
> > > > 
> > > > Edgar
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Bill! wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Edgar,
> > > > > 
> > > > > I agree with Joe here.
> > > > > 
> > > > > All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically 
> > > > > designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require 
> > > > > a demonstration rather than an explanation. For example my first koan 
> > > > > was Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was to "BRING me Mu" and 
> > > > > "SHOW me Mu" - certainly not "explain what Joshu's answer 'Mu' means".
> > > > > 
> > > > > In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, 
> > > > > there is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, 
> > > > > although these discussions are usually focused on just what the koan 
> > > > > is specifically designed to accomplish rather than a discussion on 
> > > > > the meaning of the actual content.
> > > > > 
> > > > > This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was with 
> > > > > two different zen masters - although admittedly the two zen masters 
> > > > > were from the same 'school' and they themselves had a teacher:student 
> > > > > relationship at one time.
> > > > > 
> > > > > ...Bill! 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Joe"  wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Edgar,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Anyone who passes the koan "What is the sound of One Hand?", makes 
> > > > > > a demonstration. It's easy, at that time. After that work. What are 
> >

Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad

Agreed... An eminently rational statement

Edgar



On Jun 13, 2013, at 2:27 AM, Bill! wrote:

> Edgar,
> 
> There is nothing for which a human being NEEDS as teacher. You could 
> conceivably invent calculus on your own if you came to a situation where you 
> needed it. However most humans do learn from teachers starting with your 
> parents. It saves a lot of time and effort because you don't have to 'invent 
> the wheel' every generation. The body of knowledge is passed through teaching.
> 
> It's no different with zen. A good teacher can help you get started and 
> shepherd you though difficult patches. He/she cannot learn things for you but 
> can certainly help you learn. And yes, there does come a time when you've 
> exhausted your teachers' ability to assist and then must go our on your own, 
> but you do so from that very substantial base of your learning.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> >
> > Bill,
> > 
> > Yes, in the limited teacher student context. But as I've explained before 
> > reality is the ONLY real teacher. Human teachers may or may not serve as 
> > little pieces of reality that facilitate pointing out Buddha Nature.
> > 
> > But there is NO NEED AT ALL to 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan. 
> > You either realize Buddha Nature or you don't. If you do the teacher is no 
> > longer relevant
> > 
> > One demonstrates Buddha Nature to Buddha Nature by realizing Buddha Nature. 
> > NO teacher necessary other than reality itself.
> > 
> > Only dependent personalities think teachers are a necessity. Did you need a 
> > teacher to start breathing when you were born?
> > 
> > Edgar
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Jun 11, 2013, at 3:43 AM, Bill! wrote:
> > 
> > > Edgar,
> > > 
> > > Yes, demonstrating Buddha Nature is the 'answer' or 'solution' to all 
> > > koans. And yes, that could involve pointing, or an utterance, or some 
> > > other action or even silence and no action. And yes, you do have to 
> > > 'convince' your teacher to pass the koan - at least if you want to gain 
> > > his/her verification that you have passed the koan.
> > > 
> > > After you have passed the koan there was at least in my case then some 
> > > rational conversation about the structure of the koan and on what it was 
> > > specifically designed to focus. These discussions were intended to 
> > > prepare you for becoming a teacher.
> > > 
> > > ...Bill!
> > > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Edgar Owen  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bill,
> > > > 
> > > > There is only one answer or solution to ALL koans. And that is Buddha 
> > > > Nature. So all one has to do in response to any koan is simply to point 
> > > > to anything at all and convincingly bring attention to its Buddha 
> > > > Nature.
> > > > 
> > > > But as I say repeatedly anything at all can be a koan to get you to 
> > > > that realization. Reality itself is ultimately the ONLY koan even 
> > > > in its seemingly most insignificant aspect...
> > > > 
> > > > Edgar
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > > On Jun 9, 2013, at 9:17 PM, Bill! wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > Edgar,
> > > > > 
> > > > > I agree with Joe here.
> > > > > 
> > > > > All the 'breakthrough' koans (the first ones that are specifically 
> > > > > designed to induce kensho (first experience of Buddha Nature)require 
> > > > > a demonstration rather than an explanation. For example my first koan 
> > > > > was Joshu's MU and my teacher's request was to "BRING me Mu" and 
> > > > > "SHOW me Mu" - certainly not "explain what Joshu's answer 'Mu' means".
> > > > > 
> > > > > In later koans, although still requiring actions or demonstrations, 
> > > > > there is some room for intellectual discussions with your teacher, 
> > > > > although these discussions are usually focused on just what the koan 
> > > > > is specifically designed to accomplish rather than a discussion on 
> > > > > the meaning of the actual content.
> > > > > 
> > > > > This has been my experience with koan study anyway, and this was with 
> > > > > two different zen masters - although admittedly the two zen masters 
> > > > > were from the same 'school' and they themselves had a teacher:student 
> > > > > relationship at one time.
> > > > > 
> > > > > ...Bill! 
> > > > > 
> > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Joe"  wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Edgar,
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > If YOU take things literally, then that's what YOU do.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Anyone who passes the koan "What is the sound of One Hand?", makes 
> > > > > > a demonstration. It's easy, at that time. After that work. What are 
> > > > > > you all hung up about?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > Edgar, note, too: my practice has been not too much on koans; after 
> > > > > > a few, my teacher saw the road ahead for me, and that was not 
> > > > > > koans. Either, "no need", or "no aptitude".
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > From my point of view, after a point, it was:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > "No need for gumdrops

Re: [Zen] Re: The Book of Mirdad