from:"siska

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

2010-11-15 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska
-Original Message-
From: 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language.  I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind.  When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language.  It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
know it doesn't actually fit very well.  In any language there are a lot of
exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.

So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
'metalanguage', that I disagree.

I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is
something that could not be communicated.'  It certainly can be
communicated, although language is not a very good medium for that precisely
because most languages are dualistically-based.

I haven't read any Sufi tales, but from the way you described them they
sound a lot like zen koans.  And if that's the case they aren't meant to be
'understood' - they are meant to communicate direct experience.  As you say
later in the paragraph, 'No way to explain...When the moment arrives, it is
there.'

...Bill!  

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lluís Mendieta
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi, Bill
 
Well, I am just a chemist, not a linguist.
But I have been teached the metalanguage theory of  Chomsky: all languages
have a subjacent grammar that brain understand, process and implement,
making this way that children could produce perfect phrases that they have
never heard before.
So, the metalanguage exists before it is placed in the form of grammar.
Grammar would be the verbalization of the metalanguage. Not after language.
Just the language (or just this)
 
The direct experience I feel that is something that could not be
communicated.
Would be maybe like the sufi tales: if you do not understand them, they are
not for you.
You feel (even beeing dualistic, I know, but I could not place in other
way), or you feel not.
No way to explain. No way to shre. Whe moment arrives, is there.
 
Or maybe I am just a plain brick, very far from awareness
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
 
P.D.: the non dualistic form of the haiku, at least in spanish 
Rana
Charco
Chop!
 
would be the lazy westerner form of : there is a frog, and a pond, and the
frog makes plop (or my mind works this way, at least)
 
- Original Message - 
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 4:42 AM
Subject: !QRE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Lluis,

I’m not saying that Westerners, in fact all humans that manifest a
dualistic, discriminating mind, are tied to subject/object and verbs that
describe action. That’s a given.

What I’m saying is that there are forms of English (and I suppose other
languages) that are utterances free from subject/object/verb, that are not
restricted by grammar.

In the example phrases I used below: ‘Hungry!’ and ‘Fire!’, YOU are the one
who is interjecting the dualism. If I yell ‘Fire!’ or ‘Duck!’ you will
first just equate the sound to DANGER and react BEFORE you mentally
reconstruct and augment the sound to ‘I have observed a fire and want to be
sure you are aware of it.’

Other non-exclamatory examples are in poetry, especially zen-inspired haikus
such as Basho's famous haiku in which he attempted to communicate a DIRECT
EXPERIENCE (Buddha Mind) he had. There are many attempts at translating
this haiku, and the results show me whether or not the translator was
translating with his/her discriminating mind or Buddha Mind:

ORIGINAL JAPANESE

Furu ike ya
kawazu tobikomu
mizu no oto (Basho)

DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND TRANSLATION

There once was a curious frog
Who sat by a pond on a log
And, to see what resulted,
In the pond catapulted
With a water-noise heard round the bog. (Alfred H. Marks)

MIX OF DUALISTIC/DISCRIMINATING MIND AND BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION

Into the ancient pond
A frog jumps
Water’s sound! (D.T. Suzuki)

BUDDHA MIND TRANSLATION

pond
frog
plop! (James Kirkup)

Remember when I posted about what I describe as 'zen talk' and 'talking
about zen'? The first tra

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

2010-11-16 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska
-Original Message-
From: 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium.  This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence.  I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other.  Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.  Just observe (through  
reading)  the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind. When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language. It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
know it doesn't actually fit very well. In any language there are a lot of
exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.

So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
'metalanguage', that I disagree.

I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is
something that could not be communicated.' It certainly can be
communicated, although language is not a very good medium for that precisely
because most languages are dualistically-based.

I haven't read any Sufi tales, but from the way you described them they
sound a lot like zen koans. And if that's the case they aren't meant to be
'understood' - they are meant to communicate direct experience. As you say
later in the paragraph, 'No way to explain...When the moment arrives, it is
there.'

...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lluís Mendieta
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi, Bill
 
Well, I am just a chemist, not a linguist.
But I have been teached the metalanguage theory of  Chomsky: all languages
have a subjacent grammar that brain understand, process and implement,
making this way that children could produce perfect phrases that they have
never heard before.
So, the metalanguage exists before it is placed in the form of grammar.
Grammar would be the verbalization of the metalanguage. Not after language.
Just the language (or just this)
 
The direct experience I feel that is something that could not be
communicated.
Would be maybe like the sufi tales: if you do not understand them, they are
not for you.
You feel (even beeing dualistic, I know, but I could not place in other
way), or you feel not.
No way to explain. No way to shre. Whe moment arrives, is there.
 
Or maybe I am just a plain brick, very far from awareness
 
With best wishes
 
Lluís
 
P.D.: the non dualistic form of the haiku, at least in spanish 
Rana
Charco
Chop!
 
would be the lazy westerner form of : there is a frog, and a pond, and the
frog makes plop (or my mind works this way, at least)
 
- Original Message - 
From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 4:42 AM
Subject: !QRE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Lluis,

I’m not saying that Westerners, in fact all humans that manifest a
dualistic, discriminating mind, are tied to subject/object and verbs that
describe action. That’s a given.

What I’m saying is that there are forms of English (and I suppose other
lan

[Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

2010-11-17 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed,

Thank you! I've bookmarked the page.
Please send me anything you find useful.

siska

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Hi Siska,
> 
> I found this useful:
> http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/Zen_Koan_Practice_by_Genjo_Marinello
> <http://www.dharmaweb.org/index.php/Zen_Koan_Practice_by_Genjo_Marinello\
> >
> 
> --ED
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> >
> > Hi Bill,
> >
> > Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.
> >
> > > Don't try to 'understand' the koans.
> >
> > That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying
> to tell. Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to
> be interpreted and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can
> sometimes be rather absurd.
> >
> > > Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques
> >
> > I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog
> example?
> >
> > Siska
>






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Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

2010-11-18 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

Thanks for the koans.

What is the communication technique in the last two koans?

I think I've read some sufi stories before, but can't remember anything similar 
to koans at the moment. I'll share the story when I remember.

siska

-Original Message-
From: 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 17 Nov 2010 10:29:31 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent.  Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma.  It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings.  Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”.  

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?”  Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE

“Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.”

Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share?

Thanks…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

  
Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium. This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence. I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other. Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. Just observe (through 
reading) the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind. When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language. It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
know it doesn't actually fit very well. In any language there are a lot of
exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.

So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
'metalanguage', that I disagree.

I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is
something that could not be communicated.' It certainly can be
communicated, although language is not a very good medium for that precisely
because most languages are dualistically-based.

I haven't read any Sufi tales, but from the way you described them they
sound a lot like zen koans. And if that's the case

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

2010-11-18 Thread siska_cen

Hello Kristy,

> *bows* Siska, 
Is this like Japanese bows where we *bows* back as salutation?

> Its simply being with them that makes them meaningful. 

Yes, I like it, just be with them.

> The only problem I have is that I have two rocks with a koan painted on each, 
> which  flank my front doors.  Guests always pester me to explain them.

Good chance to say: I don't know :-)

siska
-Original Message-
From: Kristy McClain 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 19:44:45 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

*bows* Siska,
 
I quite agree with you.  I took classes and met with a Teacher to study koans. 
I've found its like poetry for me. Trying to analyze it ruins it--for me.  Its 
simply being with them that makes them meaningful. 
 
The only problem I have is that I have two rocks with a koan painted on each, 
which  flank my front doors.  Guests always pester me to explain them.
 
Be well,
 
Kristy
 
 


-







, Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium. This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence. I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other. Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. Just observe (through 
reading) the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind. When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language. It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
know it doesn't actually fit very well. In any language there are a lot of
exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.

So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
'metalanguage', that I disagree.

I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is
something that could not be communicated.' It certainly can be
communicated, although language is not a very good medium for that precisely
because most languages are dualistically-based.

I haven't read any Sufi tales, but from the way you described them they
sound a lot like zen koans. And if that's the case they aren't meant to be
'understood' - they are meant to communicate direct experience. As you say
later in the paragraph, 'No way to explain...When the moment arrives, it is
there.'

...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf
Of Lluís Mendieta
Sent: Monday, November 15, 2010 10:03 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi, Bill

Well, I am just a chemist, not a linguist.
But I have been teached the metalanguage theory of Chomsky: all languages
have a subjacent grammar that brain understand, process and implement,
making this way that children could produce perfect phrases that they have
never heard before.
So, the metalanguage exists before it is placed in the form of grammar.
Grammar would be the verbalization of the metalanguage. Not after language.
Just the language (or just this)

The direct experience I feel that is something that could

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

2010-11-18 Thread siska_cen

Hi Anthony,

I previously thought most, if not all, koans are made up stories instead of 
real events. They are not?

siska
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Wu 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 18 Nov 2010 05:30:31 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

The story of buddha holding up a flower was cooked up by a zen fan, out of thin 
air. Nevertheless, it is a good story. I like it.

Anthony

--- On Wed, 17/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 17 November, 2010, 11:29 AM

Siska,

A koan that immediately comes to mind:

Buddha Holds up a Flower, Case 6 - GATELESS GATE:

“Once in ancient times, when the World-Honored One was at Mount Grdhrakuta 
(Vulture Peak), he held up a flower, twirled it, and showed it to the 
assemblage.

At this, they all remained silent. Only the venerable Kashyapa broke into a 
smile.

The World-Honored One said: “I have the eye treasury of the true Dharma, the 
marvelous mind of nirvana, the true form of no-form, the subtle gate of the 
Dharma. It does not depend on letters, being especially transmitted outside of 
all teachings. Now I entrust Mahakashyapa with this.””

This koan shows the fundamentals of zen communication, and actually sets out in 
clear language that this communication “…does not depend on letters…” and that 
it is “…outside of all teachings.”. 

Two other examples of how this communication is used of particular interest are 
two koans, both attributed to Nansen:

Ordinary Mind is the Way, Case 19 – GATELESS GATE

“Joshu earnestly asked Nansen, “What is the Way?” Nansen answered, “The 
ordinary mind is the Way.” …”

Knowing is Not the Way, Case 34 – GATELESS GATE

“Nansen said, “Mind is not Buddha; knowing is not the Way.”

Do you have some Sufi stories that you’d like to share?

Thanks…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 6:43 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

Actually one of the things that raised my interest in Zen is koans.

> Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans.

That explains why I never really understand what the koans are trying to tell. 
Yet I don't care, I just like them. Some say koans are not to be interpreted 
and analysed. I quite agree as the interpretations can sometimes be rather 
absurd.

> Just observe (through reading) the communication techniques

I don't really get this. You mean something like the pond and frog example?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 16 Nov 2010 17:05:11 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Siska,

I believe face-to-face contact is the best medium. This can include language, 
utterances, gestures and of course also silence. I suggest you read some koans 
and especially pay attention at how the principals in the koans communicated 
with each other. Don’t try to ‘understand’ the koans. Just observe (through 
reading) the communication techniques.

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Tuesday, November 16, 2010 8:02 AM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Hi Bill,

The problem with language is not only that it is dualistic, but also that it 
relies heavily in words that are full with perceptions.

Makes me wonder then, what is the good medium to communicate direct experience?

Siska

From:  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Mon, 15 Nov 2010 23:27:07 +0700
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Lluis,

Just THIS! is before language. I assume what Chomsky is referring to as
'metalanguage' is just pattern recognition which is a function of our
discriminating mind. When this function is applied to language I guess it
could be called 'metalanguage' since it is an attribute that must be present
to learn language. It would also make sense that this 'metalanguage' could
be the foundation for grammar, although I still assert that grammar is an
attempt to cram language into a nice, neat logical framework - and as we all
know it doesn't actually fit very well. In any language there are a lot of
exceptions to grammatical rules, and that is because the rules (logical
structure) do not spring from the language itself, but are imposed upon it.

So I think, from the way you described Chomsky's theory of language and
'metalanguage', that I disagree.

I also disagree with your statement below that '...direct experience...is
something that could not be communicated.' It certainly can be
com

Re: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen

2010-11-18 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed, 

I like this I want to share it in another forum where I belong. Thought I 
should ask for your permission in case this gets published :-)

siska 
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Wu 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 19 Nov 2010 05:45:15 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen

ED,
 
I would like to acclaim your words of wisdom(not joking). When are you going to 
publish your Guide to Teacher-student Relationships? You can ask Dalai Lama to 
edit it when he is in a humorous mood. If he lost his sense of humor for the 
time being, don't let him touch your book.
 
BTW, you are influenced by Tibetan theory of grades starting from 
hinayan-mahayana-tantrayana. I think that leads to very likely sexuality that 
cannot be helped.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 18/11/10, ED  wrote:


From: ED 
Subject: Re: [Zen] The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 18 November, 2010, 10:50 PM


  





Kristy,
Each comment I make concerning the teacher-student relationship does *not* 
necessarily apply to all. Here are some comments:
You must be at least 21 years of age, and be willing  to be accountable to 
yourself for *all* your choices and all that happens to you, before engaging in 
spiritual training with a teacher.
You must make yourelf aware of the teacher's traditions, teaching style and 
recommended practices, and check the Internet about his reputation.
You must feel that you have something to learn from your teacher.
You must explore and discuss with others any uneasy feelings you have about 
your teacher.
You must feel inspired by your teacher.
You must hold on tight to your wallet/purse and your pants/panties, if that 
feels right for you.
Who they *really* are and all their foibles are irrelevant if you are learning 
and growing by being with them.
Take whatever of his/her teachings that you like and can assimilate, and ignore 
the rest.
Be particularly careful if you have a 'powerful' or 'famous' teacher, and if 
you know yourself to be or you have been told that you are a 
psychologically/emotionally vulnerable person.
If perplexed, one can look for a local zendo, preferebly with an East Asian 
roshi, whom you feel good about, and join the sangha, practice zazen, listen to 
teishos and read what the teacher recommends. One must not engage in sexual 
relations with the teacher. 
At all times study and practice Theravadin buddhist texts.
--ED
PS1: I have not studied Genpo Roshi's current teaching and practices 
sufficiently. My educated or uneducated guess is that it is 20% zen and 80% 
psychological/human-potential-movement-like  (20% 'tough love',  20% est-like,  
40% 'voice dialog'.)
PS2: The teachers mentioned at the end of your message I think are well 
grounded in Hinayana Buddhism's introspection, ethics and morality. Without an 
*aboslute* minimum of 5 to 10 years of Theravadin buddhist practice, 
Mahayana-and-beyond buddhist teachings/practice (and zen too) are being built 
on sandy ground.
 
--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Kristy McClain  wrote:
>
> Ed,
>  
> So do you have a comment about this?
>  
> To amplify my comment to Bill.  When I watched Gempo say  this to  a student, 
> I do not believe he was saying this in such a way as to confront the student 
> with his own reality, a.k.a. "tough love".
>  Gempo was visably irritated, and his body language, tone of voice and entire 
>behavior indicated that he, himself,  had simply lost control.  
As for Andrew Cohen,  frankly-- I cannot understand this guy.  He can talk 
non-stop for hours.  My ears hurt whenÂ  starts rambling on and on with what I 
perceive as psycho-spiritual-intelli-babble.  Hailed as brilliant,  I cannot 
understand most of what he says.
>  
> I do understand the point of this video, but I can't see Jack Kornfield, TNH, 
> Cheryl Hubbard and so on, behaving this way.Â  But perhaps it is also telling 
> to note that this is a teaching style I avoided as not right forÂ  me.
>  
> Kristy
 
> >  The Teacher-Student Relationship: Genpo Roshi & Andrew Cohen 
> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VsnVFVF2XsÂ  (8:44)

Re: [Zen] Perhaps

2010-11-24 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill, Mayka,

I know the koan is for Mayka but I'm so tempted to say: Just This? 

I hope the term is not a registered trademark of yours :-)

Siska
-Original Message-
From: Maria Lopez 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 13:59:16 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Perhaps

Bill; Everything you talked about was indeed form. In the peach example the 
forms are: peach, hands, eyes, lips and pleasant are forms. What you didn't 
talk about was the experience of just seeing, smelling, feeling and tasting. 
These are not forms. They are experience. They are empty. You place forms 
around them when you ‘think’ or ‘create the concepts of’ peach, hands, lips, 
pleasant, etc…

Mayka: Not to mention the word: "experience" didn't exclude the experience.  
The talk of the form was made in that way to point it out that in the 
experience of "just this" the form also takes part.  It's a motion in that 
motion is the experience.  One is not separated from the motion.  One is one 
with the now as endless motion travelling in the now and with everything that 
is happening.  Of course there is a direct experience with all that happening 
at once.   If you didn't have the peach you wouldn't have the experience of 
just this while eating the peach.  Not sure if I'm explaining well this.  Of 
course,  you can argue now; "If I didn't have the peach still I could have the 
experience of just this".  But in order to have that wouldn't be need of 
something else? And if so still this "just this" will be happening because of 
that "just that".  
 
Bill: Here is a koan for you: Say something about Emptiness!

Mayka: Emptiness of a separate self.
 
--- On Wed, 24/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:


From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Perhaps
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 10:49


  



Mayka,

You can't intrude on a discussion on this forum. All discussions are meant to 
be for all.

Everything you talked about was indeed form. In the peach example the forms 
are: peach, hands, eyes, lips and pleasant are forms. What you didn't talk 
about was the experience of just seeing, smelling, feeling and tasting. These 
are not forms. They are experience. They are empty. You place forms around them 
when you ‘think’ or ‘create the concepts of’ peach, hands, lips, pleasant, etc…

When there is Just THIS there is no peach, hands, eyes, lips or pleasant. There 
is Just THIS! which might be the raw experience of sight, smell, feel and/or 
taste.

The Prajnaparamita Sutra may indeed state that ‘Form is Emptiness and Emptiness 
in Form’, but you have not demonstrated that to me. You’ve only talked about 
Form. Anyone can talk about Forms.

Here is a koan for you: Say something about Emptiness!

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 5:02 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Perhaps

JMJM and Bill:

Sorry to intrude between your both interesting conversation but I'd like to 
contribute to it too: 

The way I experience "Just This" is that the form and the non form interbeing 
with each other. I would disagree with Bill here saying that excludes de form. 
The form takes part of the experience of "Just This". "Just This is in 
continuous motion. It's the now travelling in the now.

eg; I have a big nice peach in my two hands. 
Peach=Form
Hands=Form
I look at it (I use my eyes to look at it. Eyes=Form). 
I bring the peach to my lips (movement=Form, Lips=Form)
Hmmm...what a pleasant smell (smell=form, thought=Form)
and etc.

What it happens with just this is that there is no attachment to the motion and 
all sensations, thoughts, images etc etc.

Another example will be the clap of a hand. Sound=Form
Hand=Form

The form and the non form are not separated from each other. They're one. The 
form is in the non form and the non form is in the form. Even the 
Prajnaparamita Sutra can confirm this: "...Emptiness is form, form is 
emptiness"

Mayka

--- On Wed, 24/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Perhaps
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 4:10

JMJM,

I think what you expressed in the attached email is essentially correct. I do 
use 'Just THIS!' to express emptiness, and the absence of forms.

I have always assumed that when I use the term â€˜illusionsâ€™ or 
â€˜conceptsâ€™ it is the same as your use of the word â€˜formâ€™.

I donâ€™t reject or completely ignore forms, in fact I use them all the time. 
Iâ€™m using them right now. Iâ€™ve always said that my zen practice involves 
learning to properly integrate forms into my life while maintaining the 
knowledge that they are forms - illusions and impermanent - without substance.

'Just THIS!' does not include forms. I think you would call it 'emptiness'. 
However my attempt at communicating 'Just THIS!' o

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

2010-11-24 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed,

> Contrary individuals, in their normal state, are the best teachers - provided 
> one is ready for the teachings.

Reminds me of this:

"Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of 
ourselves" (Carl Jung).

siska

-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 01:40:49 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

Anthony,

Everybody is a teacher of somebody on some occasion.

Contrary individuals, in their normal state, are the best teachers -
provided one is ready for the teachings. :-)

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Siska,
>
> Thank you for your compliment. I am not a good teacher. How can a man
of low intelligence be a teacher, let alone a good one?
>
> Anthony

Re: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas

2010-11-24 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed,

Yes, which is the cause of most sufferings.

siska 
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 03:26:52 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: FW: Quote from St. Thomas Aquinas



Hi siska,

Exactly!  Equivalently, Bill might say it's simply a not-flowing with
the way things are in the here and now.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:
>
> Hi Ed,
>
> > Contrary individuals, in their normal state, are the best teachers -
provided one is ready for the teachings.
>
> Reminds me of this:
>
> "Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an
understanding of ourselves" (Carl Jung).
>
> siska

Re: [Zen] New Member

2010-11-26 Thread siska_cen

Hello Lana,

I'm pretty new to this forum too and I think we can all learn a lot here. 

A things I learned from my practice that may be relevant here:
- it is always difficult if I label people and everything around me as worldly 
and at the same time not liking anything worldly. First, labelling is a result 
of discriminating mind. Then, not accepting things as they are is a guaranteed 
dissatisfaction.
- if I'm upset because of something that you do, I have a problem, not you. If 
you're upset because something that I do, that's none of my concerns.

Have a nice weekend, and if you celebrate thanksgiving, happy thanksgiving!

siska
--Original Message--
From: Lana M. Gibbons
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] New Member
Sent: Nov 25, 2010 07:29

?0?2 It seems to me that traditional buddhists were able to step away from the 
world and dedicate themselves to their studies,?0?2some did not even have to 
do?0?2chores!?0?2 Only the teachers really needed to interact with outsiders 
and even then, they only really interacted with those who were interested in 
learning (or thought they were interested in learning). ?0?2 In the reality of 
today's world, unless?0?2one was born into a rich family, one has?0?2to work 
for their living.?0?2 One has to be a part of a society made up of the 
self-indulgent and dualistic,?0?2somehow maintaining no-mind?0?2despite 
constant contact?0?2with those who truly are suffering: all while knowing 
self-realization is something they have to attain on their own. ?0?2 -Lana ?0?2 
?0?2 On Wed, Nov 24, 2010 at 4:35 PM, Rose P  wrote: 
?0?2 ?0?2 Good question Lana. It would be great to have more discussion in this 
forum about the nitty gritty of dealing with people in the world. Rose ?0?2 
?0?2 ?0?2So I ask: How do you interact with the people in this world? ?0?2  



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Re: [Zen] Perhaps

2010-11-26 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

* smile *

Thanks for the koan.

Siska
-Original Message-
From: 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 25 Nov 2010 08:51:02 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Perhaps

Siska!

Gutei's Finger

Gutei raised his finger whenever he was asked a question about Zen. A boy 
attendant began to imitate him in this way. When anyone asked the boy what his 
master had preached about, the boy would raise his finger.
 
Gutei heard about the boy's mischief. He seized him and cut off his finger. The 
boy cried and ran away. Gutei called and stopped him. When the boy turned his 
head to Gutei, Gutei raised up his own finger. In that instant the boy was 
enlightened.
 
When Gutei was about to pass from this world he gathered his monks around him. 
`I attained my one-fingerd-Zen,' he said, `from my teacher Tenryu, and in my 
whole life I could not exhaust it.' Then he passed away.

Just THIS! ...Bill! 

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
siska_...@yahoo.com
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 9:06 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Perhaps

  
Hi Bill, Mayka,

I know the koan is for Mayka but I'm so tempted to say: Just This? 

I hope the term is not a registered trademark of yours :-)

Siska

From: Maria Lopez  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Wed, 24 Nov 2010 13:59:16 + (GMT)
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Perhaps

  
Bill; Everything you talked about was indeed form. In the peach example the 
forms are: peach, hands, eyes, lips and pleasant are forms. What you didn't 
talk about was the experience of just seeing, smelling, feeling and tasting. 
These are not forms. They are experience. They are empty. You place forms 
around them when you ‘think’ or ‘create the concepts of’ peach, hands, lips, 
pleasant, etc…
Mayka: Not to mention the word: "experience" didn't exclude the experience.  
The talk of the form was made in that way to point it out that in the 
experience of "just this" the form also takes part.  It's a motion in that 
motion is the experience.  One is not separated from the motion.  One is one 
with the now as endless motion travelling in the now and with everything that 
is happening.  Of course there is a direct experience with all that happening 
at once.   If you didn't have the peach you wouldn't have the experience of 
just this while eating the peach.  Not sure if I'm explaining well this.  Of 
course,  you can argue now; "If I didn't have the peach still I could have the 
experience of just this".  But in order to have that wouldn't be need of 
something else? And if so still this "just this" will be happening because of 
that "just that".  
 
Bill: Here is a koan for you: Say something about Emptiness!
Mayka: Emptiness of a separate self.
 
--- On Wed, 24/11/10, billsm...@hhs1963.org  wrote:

From: billsm...@hhs1963.org 
Subject: RE: [Zen] Perhaps
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 24 November, 2010, 10:49
  
Mayka,

You can't intrude on a discussion on this forum. All discussions are meant to 
be for all.

Everything you talked about was indeed form. In the peach example the forms 
are: peach, hands, eyes, lips and pleasant are forms. What you didn't talk 
about was the experience of just seeing, smelling, feeling and tasting. These 
are not forms. They are experience. They are empty. You place forms around them 
when you ‘think’ or ‘create the concepts of’ peach, hands, lips, pleasant, etc…

When there is Just THIS there is no peach, hands, eyes, lips or pleasant. There 
is Just THIS! which might be the raw experience of sight, smell, feel and/or 
taste.

The Prajnaparamita Sutra may indeed state that ‘Form is Emptiness and Emptiness 
in Form’, but you have not demonstrated that to me. You’ve only talked about 
Form. Anyone can talk about Forms.

Here is a koan for you: Say something about Emptiness!

…Bill!

From: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com [mailto:zen_fo...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of 
Maria Lopez
Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 5:02 PM
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: RE: [Zen] Perhaps

JMJM and Bill:

Sorry to intrude between your both interesting conversation but I'd like to 
contribute to it too: 

The way I experience "Just This" is that the form and the non form interbeing 
with each other. I would disagree with Bill here saying that excludes de form. 
The form takes part of the experience of "Just This". "Just This is in 
continuous motion. It's the now travelling in the now.

eg; I have a big nice peach in my two hands. 
Peach=Form
Hands=Form
I look at it (I use my eyes to look at it. Eyes=Form). 
I bring the peach to my lips (movement=Form, Lips=Form)
Hmmm...what a pleasant smell (smell=form, thought=Form)
and etc.

What it happens with just this is that there is no attachment to the motion and 
all sensations, thoughts, images etc etc.

Another example will be the clap of

Re: [Zen] Re: Zen and the Martial Arts

2010-12-17 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed,

I don't know how it is supposed to be in Zen, but the way you outlined it makes 
a lot of sense. Would be interested to know what others would say.

Wa aleikum salaam :-)

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 16 Dec 2010 15:36:24 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Zen and the Martial Arts

Mel, Bill and All -

Thank you for your responses. I have a need to be very clear on these
issues. Therefore please consider the following, and tell us whether we
are all on the same wavelength:

(1)

One sits in a right posture etc. and starts doing zazen.

(2)

At first, one counts breaths, then one's awareness is placed on the
breath without counting and so on. These are calm-abiding concentration
practices, called samatha, which enhance sustained voluntary attention,
and culminate in an attention that can be sustained effortlessly for
hours on end.  (See Wikipedia)

(3)

Having calmed and stabilized the mind with samatha, one then switches to
shikantaza i.e. resting in a state of brightly alert attention that is
free of thoughts, directed to no object, and attached to no particular
content.(See Wikipedia)

(4)

After intense practice of shikantaza over a (long) period of time, on
attains glimses of the experience of no-self, which when authenticated
by a authentic teacher may be referred to as kensho.

(5) ...

A salaam aleikum,

- ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>
> ED,
>
> In domestic arts (washing dishes/taking out the garbage) shikantaza is
my favoite...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com  ,
"ED"  wrote:

> Hello Mel,

Hello ED

> In the martial arts (and in sports), which type of meditation is more
> common
>
> (1) Awareness meditation (vipassana or shikantaza or something else)

My understanding of 'shikantaza' is just plain zazen. I just sit on a
chair,
keep spine straight, eyes half-closed, and breath normally...and let the
'clouds' of thought just pass by. Just breath, nothing else

I don't know the other term

Everything empty. In a bar-room I was in, the drunken fellow moved and I
moved
with him. We ended up on the ground and I ended up on top. He was
shouting and
abusing..doing a lot of talking. But, I couldn't really hear, or
understand.
But, I could hear noise and see movement. Move in harmony with opponent,
not
against him the way Sumo bouts begin. Open eyes, open ears. I survived.
Pride
wasn't important. Just breath

> (2) Concentration meditation (samatha or somethhing else) ?

For my own personal purposes, I don't concentrate on anything...unless
you call
breathing as concentration on breathing itself...which I think
complicates
things more than needed to be

For my own purposes, I don't really make use of the old and ancient
terms.
Modern English seems far easier for me, but that's just me

in peace
Mel

Re: [Zen] Re: Liberation

2010-12-25 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed,

What is shenanigans in?

siska

-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2010 17:35:12 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Liberation





'Amen!' requires an end. Is there ever an *end* to the shenanigans in
the typical human male-female relationship? ;-)

--ED



--- In zen_fo...@yahoogroup   s.com,
"Bill!"  wrote:
>
Do I hear an 'Amen!'?

...Bill!


> Good morning All,
>
> Viki has been meditating with us for over 10 years now. Through out
her
> journey, she has learned to give, to give, to give, to serve, to serve
> and serve, while her husband, Dr. Tracy Lee with an upbringing of a
> Chinese husband, does no house chores whatsoever. Similar to my father
> and my grandpa. Viki did not complain. She just fulfilling each moment
> as always and more each day.
>
> Last week, Viki shared with us with joy, that after twenty years of
> marriage. Tracy finally took the initiative to cook dinner every day,
> after he realized that he is home much earlier than Viki, because she
> has more work to do at the office.
>
> Because of it, I share the lesson that I have learned. From time to
> time you may have heard that I spoil my wife bad. I do things most of
> the husbands are not willing to do, because they consider it beyond
> their duty. The secret of doing more than asking for, actually results
> in my own liberation.
>
> A lot of times, I have to get up in midst of an exciting Laker's game
to
> wash dishes. I have to swallow my ego to say or to do things my father
> would look down upon for not being a man, meaning against my own
upbringing.
>
> The truth that I have learned is that, fulfilling every moment, or do
> more as needed, actually liberate myself from all mental construct of
> who I am and who I should do, or be, or think. I am capable to do
> anything at any time now. Yes, I am free finally.
>
> "Isn't that so?" I asked Tracy. He smiled and nodded.
>
> "You practice and witness." my Teacher would say. "Life is in your own
> hand. I am just a tour guide."
>
> JMJM
> Head Teacher
> Order of Chan
>
> --
> Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
> http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com 
> http://www.heartchan.org

Re: [Zen] Re: Dogen's Perspective

2010-12-27 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

It's weird that I've been receiving mostly Ed's posts and no one else's lately. 
At first I thought it was because nobody (except Ed) posted anything, but as I 
scrolled down the post, I can see that others'. Occasionally, JMJM's posts got 
through, but never yours. 

Is there anything wrong with my group setting?

Thanks,
Siska
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 27 Dec 2010 09:42:54 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Dogen's Perspective



Dogen' assertion is simple, clear, inspiring and beautiful to many; but
Jewish, Christian or Muslim religion might not buy into Dogen's schtick.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>
I don't often post quotes from others, but I'll make an exception for
this one:


"Sitting itself is the practice of the Buddha. Sitting itself is
nondoing. It is
nothing but the true form of the self. Apart from sitting, there is
nothing to
seek as the buddhadharma." - Dogen Zenji

Any questions?

...Bill!

Re: [Zen] Re: Liberation

2010-12-27 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed,

Ah I see, I googled for the wrong word :-)

I think 'kerfuffles between' would be more like it.

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 26 Dec 2010 17:08:39 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Liberation




Hi Siska,

Either shenanigans in or kerfuffles between.  ;-)

--Ed



Synonyms for shenanigans:


Main Entry:  naughtiness   Part of Speech:  noun   Definition: 
misbehavior   Synonyms:  acting up, fault, horseplay, immorality,
impropriety, incivility, indiscipline, insubordination, mischief,
misconduct, misdeed, misdemeanor, misdoing, monkey business, rudeness,
shenanigans*, transgression, wrongdoing

* = informal/non-formal usage
Main Entry:  misbehavior   Part of Speech:  noun   Definition:  naughty
act, conduct   Synonyms:  acting up, fault, immorality, impropriety,
incivility, indiscipline, insubordination, mischief, misconduct,
misdeed, misdemeanor, misdoing, monkey business, naughtiness , rudeness,
shenanigans*, transgression, wrongdoing   Antonyms:  behavior, good
conduct, manners, obedience  * = informal/non-formal usage



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_...@... wrote:
>
Hi Ed,

What is shenanigans in?

siska




'Amen!' requires an end. Is there ever an *end* to the shenanigans in
the typical human male-female relationship? ;-)

--ED



Do I hear an 'Amen!'?

...Bill!


> Good morning All,
>
> Viki has been meditating with us for over 10 years now. Through out
her
> journey, she has learned to give, to give, to give, to serve, to serve
> and serve, while her husband, Dr. Tracy Lee with an upbringing of a
> Chinese husband, does no house chores whatsoever. Similar to my father
> and my grandpa. Viki did not complain. She just fulfilling each moment
> as always and more each day.
>
> Last week, Viki shared with us with joy, that after twenty years of
> marriage. Tracy finally took the initiative to cook dinner every day,
> after he realized that he is home much earlier than Viki, because she
> has more work to do at the office.
>
> Because of it, I share the lesson that I have learned. From time to
> time you may have heard that I spoil my wife bad. I do things most of
> the husbands are not willing to do, because they consider it beyond
> their duty. The secret of doing more than asking for, actually results
> in my own liberation.
>
> A lot of times, I have to get up in midst of an exciting Laker's game
to
> wash dishes. I have to swallow my ego to say or to do things my father
> would look down upon for not being a man, meaning against my own
upbringing.
>
> The truth that I have learned is that, fulfilling every moment, or do
> more as needed, actually liberate myself from all mental construct of
> who I am and who I should do, or be, or think. I am capable to do
> anything at any time now. Yes, I am free finally.
>
> "Isn't that so?" I asked Tracy. He smiled and nodded.
>
> "You practice and witness." my Teacher would say. "Life is in your own
> hand. I am just a tour guide."
>
> JMJM
> Head Teacher
> Order of Chan
>
> --
> Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
> http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com 
> http://www.heartchan.org

Re: [Zen] Re: Greetings

2011-01-28 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed,

Wonderful stories, thanks for posting it.

siska
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 02:09:04 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Greetings

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>
> Kirk,
>
> I don't know of a tradition or culture that doesn't use stories to
instruct. But I am aware that Sufism is well known for that.
>
> ...Bill!

> > Dear Bill
> >
> > There is a tradition in Sufism where teaching stories are used to
instruct,
> > enlighten, etc . . .
> >
> > best wishes
> >
> > Kirk

The Exploits of the Incomparable Mulla Nasrudin, Idries Shah, Simon and
Schuster, 1966. New York, p. 110  Moment in Time
"What is Fate?" Nasrudin was asked by a Scholar.

"An endless succession of intertwined events, each influencing the
other."

"That is hardly a satisfactory answer. I believe in cause and effect."

"Very well," said the Mulla, "look at that." He pointed to a procession
passing in the street."

"That man is being taken to be hanged. Is that because someone gave him
a silver piece and enabled him to buy the knife with which he committed
the murder; or because someone saw him do it; or because nobody stopped
him?"
The Pleasantries of the Incredible Mulla Nasrudin by Idries Shah:
Octagon Press, London, p. 68. Copyright © 1983 by Octagon Press.  The
Value of Truth
'If you want truth', Nasrudin told a group of Seekers who had  come to
hear his teachings, 'you will have to pay for it.'

'But why should you have to pay for something like truth?'  asked one of
the company.

'Have you noticed', said Nasrudin, 'that it is the scarcity of a thing
which determines its value?'
from 'Tales of the Dervishes' by Idries Shah   When the Waters Were
Changed
Once upon a time Khidr, the teacher of Moses, called upon mankind with a
warning. At a certain date, he said, all the water in the world which
had not been specially hoarded, would disappear. It would then be
renewed, with different water, which would drive men mad.

Only one man listened to the meaning of this advice. He collected water
and went to a secure place where he stored it, and waited for the water
to change its character.

On the appointed date the streams stopped running, the wells went dry,
and the man who had listened, seeing this happening, went to his retreat
and drank his preserved water.

When he saw, from his security, the waterfalls again beginning to flow,
this man descended among the other sons of men. He found that they were
thinking and talking in an entirely different way from before; yet they
had no memory of what had happened, nor of having been warned. When he
tried to talk to them, he realized that they thought that he was mad,
and they showed hostility or compassion, not understanding.

At first, he drank none of the new water, but went back to his
concealment, to draw on his supplies, every day. Finally, however, he
took the decision to drink the new water because he could not bear the
loneliness of living, behaving and thinking in a different way from
everyone else. He drank the new water, and became like the rest. Then he
forgot all about his own store of special water, and his fellows began
to look upon him as a madman who had miraculously been restored to
sanity.
From:  'The Way of the Sufi':   A powerful king, ruler of many domains,
was in a position of such magnificence that wise men were his mere
employees. And yet one day he felt himself confused and called the sages
to him.
He said:
'I do not know the cause, but something impels me to seek a certain
ring, one that will enable me to stabilize my state.

'I must have such a ring. And this ring must be one which, when I am
unhappy, will make me joyful. At the same time, if I am happy and look
upon it, I must be made sad.'

The wise men consulted one another, and threw themselves into deep
contemplation, and finally they came to a decision as to the character
of this ring which would suit their king.

The ring which they devised was one upon which was inscribed the legend:

This, too, will pass.

http://www.katinkahesselink.net/sufi/stories.html

Re: [Zen] Re: Greetings

2011-01-28 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed,

Wonderful stories, thanks for posting it.

siska
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2011 02:09:04 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Greetings

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>
> Kirk,
>
> I don't know of a tradition or culture that doesn't use stories to
instruct. But I am aware that Sufism is well known for that.
>
> ...Bill!

> > Dear Bill
> >
> > There is a tradition in Sufism where teaching stories are used to
instruct,
> > enlighten, etc . . .
> >
> > best wishes
> >
> > Kirk

The Exploits of the Incomparable Mulla Nasrudin, Idries Shah, Simon and
Schuster, 1966. New York, p. 110  Moment in Time
"What is Fate?" Nasrudin was asked by a Scholar.

"An endless succession of intertwined events, each influencing the
other."

"That is hardly a satisfactory answer. I believe in cause and effect."

"Very well," said the Mulla, "look at that." He pointed to a procession
passing in the street."

"That man is being taken to be hanged. Is that because someone gave him
a silver piece and enabled him to buy the knife with which he committed
the murder; or because someone saw him do it; or because nobody stopped
him?"
The Pleasantries of the Incredible Mulla Nasrudin by Idries Shah:
Octagon Press, London, p. 68. Copyright © 1983 by Octagon Press.  The
Value of Truth
'If you want truth', Nasrudin told a group of Seekers who had  come to
hear his teachings, 'you will have to pay for it.'

'But why should you have to pay for something like truth?'  asked one of
the company.

'Have you noticed', said Nasrudin, 'that it is the scarcity of a thing
which determines its value?'
from 'Tales of the Dervishes' by Idries Shah   When the Waters Were
Changed
Once upon a time Khidr, the teacher of Moses, called upon mankind with a
warning. At a certain date, he said, all the water in the world which
had not been specially hoarded, would disappear. It would then be
renewed, with different water, which would drive men mad.

Only one man listened to the meaning of this advice. He collected water
and went to a secure place where he stored it, and waited for the water
to change its character.

On the appointed date the streams stopped running, the wells went dry,
and the man who had listened, seeing this happening, went to his retreat
and drank his preserved water.

When he saw, from his security, the waterfalls again beginning to flow,
this man descended among the other sons of men. He found that they were
thinking and talking in an entirely different way from before; yet they
had no memory of what had happened, nor of having been warned. When he
tried to talk to them, he realized that they thought that he was mad,
and they showed hostility or compassion, not understanding.

At first, he drank none of the new water, but went back to his
concealment, to draw on his supplies, every day. Finally, however, he
took the decision to drink the new water because he could not bear the
loneliness of living, behaving and thinking in a different way from
everyone else. He drank the new water, and became like the rest. Then he
forgot all about his own store of special water, and his fellows began
to look upon him as a madman who had miraculously been restored to
sanity.
From:  'The Way of the Sufi':   A powerful king, ruler of many domains,
was in a position of such magnificence that wise men were his mere
employees. And yet one day he felt himself confused and called the sages
to him.
He said:
'I do not know the cause, but something impels me to seek a certain
ring, one that will enable me to stabilize my state.

'I must have such a ring. And this ring must be one which, when I am
unhappy, will make me joyful. At the same time, if I am happy and look
upon it, I must be made sad.'

The wise men consulted one another, and threw themselves into deep
contemplation, and finally they came to a decision as to the character
of this ring which would suit their king.

The ring which they devised was one upon which was inscribed the legend:

This, too, will pass.

http://www.katinkahesselink.net/sufi/stories.html

Re: [Zen] Re: Greetings

2011-01-29 Thread siska_cen

think,"
he said. "Do they know that I write poetry?"
"Not yet, Honey," she said. "i have told them about your
drinking and gambling, but i thought i'd better not tell them
everything at once."

   14.   Mulla Nasrudin was looking over greeting cards.
The salesman said, "Here's a nice one – "to the only
girl i ever loved."
"wonderful," said Nasrudin. "i will take six."

   15.   "Well, Nasrudin, my boy," said his uncle, "my
congratulations! I hear you are engaged to one of the pretty Noyes
twins."
"Rather!" replied Mulla Nasrudin, heartily.
"But," said his uncle, "how on earth do you manage to tell
them apart?"
"Oh," said Nasrudin. "I Dont Try!"

   16.   "And are mine the only lips, Mulla, you have kissed?"
asked she.
"Yes," said Nasrudin, "and they are the sweetest of
all."

17.   "There just is not any justice in this world," said Mulla
Nasrudin to a friend. "I used to be a 97-pound weakling, and
whenever I went to the beach with my girl, this big 197-pound bully came
over and kicked sand in my face. I decided to do something about it, so
I took a weight-lifting course and after a while I weighed 197
pounds."
"So what happened?" his friend asked.
"Well, after that," said Nasrudin, "whenever i went to the
beach with my girl, a 257-pound bully kicked sand in my face."

18.   "Dorothy, your boyfriend, Mulla Nasrudin, seems very
bashful," said Mama to her daughter.
"Bashful!" echoed the daughter, "bashful is no name for
it."
"Why don't you encourage him a little more? Some men have to be
taught how to do their courting.He's a good catch."
"Encourage him!" said the daughter, "he cannot take the most
palpable hint. Why, only last night when I sat all alone on the sofa, he
perched up in a chair as far away as he could get. I asked him if he
didn't think it strange that a man's arm and a woman's waist
seemed always to be the same length, and what do you think he did?"
"Why, just what any sensible man would have done – tried
it."
"NO," said the daughter. "He asked me if i could find a
piece of string so we could measure and see if it was so."

19.   Mulla Nasrudin, visiting India, was told he should by all means go
on a tiger hunt before returning to his country.
"It's easy," he was assured. "You simply tie a bleating
goat in a thicket as night comes on. The cries of the animal will
attract a tiger. You are up in a nearby tree. When the tiger arrives,
aim your gun between his eyes and blast away."
When the Mulla returned from the hunt he was asked how he made out.
"No luck at all," said Nasrudin.
"Those tigers are altogether too clever for me. They Travel in
Pairs,  and Each one closes an eye. So, of course, I Missed them every
time."

   20.   An artist was hunting a spot where he could spend a week or two
and do some work in peace and quiet. He had stopped at the village
tavern and was talking to one of the customers, Mulla Nasrudin, about
staying at his farm.
"I think I'd like to stay up at your farm," the artist said,
"provided there is some good scenery. Is there very much to see up
there?"
"I am afraid not " said Nasrudin. "of course, if you look
out the front door you can See the barn across the road, but if you look
out the back door, you can't See anything but mountains for the next
forty miles."

21.  Mulla Nasrudin and his wife were sitting on a bench in the park one
evening just at dusk. Without knowing that they were close by, a young
man and his girl friend sat down at a bench on the other side of a
hedge.
Almost immediately, the young man began to talk in the most loving
manner imaginable.
"He does not know we are sitting here," Mulla Nasrudin's
wife whispered to her husband. "It sounds like he is going to
propose to her. I think you should cough or something and warn him."
"Why should I warn him?" asked Nasrudin. "Nobody warned
me."

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
Hi Ed,

Wonderful stories, thanks for posting it.

siska

> Kirk,
>
> I don't know of a tradition or culture that doesn't use stories to
instruct. But I am aware that Sufism is well known for that.
>
> ...Bill!

> > Dear Bill
> >
> > There is a tradition in Sufism where teaching stories are used to
instruct,
> > enlighten, etc . . .
> >
> > best wishes
> >
> > Kirk

The Exploits of the Incomparable Mulla Nasrudin, Idries Shah, Simon and
Schuster, 1966. New York, p. 110  Moment in Time
"What is Fate?" Nasrudin was asked by a Scholar.

Re: [Zen] Re: Greetings

2011-01-29 Thread siska_cen

think,"
he said. "Do they know that I write poetry?"
"Not yet, Honey," she said. "i have told them about your
drinking and gambling, but i thought i'd better not tell them
everything at once."

   14.   Mulla Nasrudin was looking over greeting cards.
The salesman said, "Here's a nice one – "to the only
girl i ever loved."
"wonderful," said Nasrudin. "i will take six."

   15.   "Well, Nasrudin, my boy," said his uncle, "my
congratulations! I hear you are engaged to one of the pretty Noyes
twins."
"Rather!" replied Mulla Nasrudin, heartily.
"But," said his uncle, "how on earth do you manage to tell
them apart?"
"Oh," said Nasrudin. "I Dont Try!"

   16.   "And are mine the only lips, Mulla, you have kissed?"
asked she.
"Yes," said Nasrudin, "and they are the sweetest of
all."

17.   "There just is not any justice in this world," said Mulla
Nasrudin to a friend. "I used to be a 97-pound weakling, and
whenever I went to the beach with my girl, this big 197-pound bully came
over and kicked sand in my face. I decided to do something about it, so
I took a weight-lifting course and after a while I weighed 197
pounds."
"So what happened?" his friend asked.
"Well, after that," said Nasrudin, "whenever i went to the
beach with my girl, a 257-pound bully kicked sand in my face."

18.   "Dorothy, your boyfriend, Mulla Nasrudin, seems very
bashful," said Mama to her daughter.
"Bashful!" echoed the daughter, "bashful is no name for
it."
"Why don't you encourage him a little more? Some men have to be
taught how to do their courting.He's a good catch."
"Encourage him!" said the daughter, "he cannot take the most
palpable hint. Why, only last night when I sat all alone on the sofa, he
perched up in a chair as far away as he could get. I asked him if he
didn't think it strange that a man's arm and a woman's waist
seemed always to be the same length, and what do you think he did?"
"Why, just what any sensible man would have done – tried
it."
"NO," said the daughter. "He asked me if i could find a
piece of string so we could measure and see if it was so."

19.   Mulla Nasrudin, visiting India, was told he should by all means go
on a tiger hunt before returning to his country.
"It's easy," he was assured. "You simply tie a bleating
goat in a thicket as night comes on. The cries of the animal will
attract a tiger. You are up in a nearby tree. When the tiger arrives,
aim your gun between his eyes and blast away."
When the Mulla returned from the hunt he was asked how he made out.
"No luck at all," said Nasrudin.
"Those tigers are altogether too clever for me. They Travel in
Pairs,  and Each one closes an eye. So, of course, I Missed them every
time."

   20.   An artist was hunting a spot where he could spend a week or two
and do some work in peace and quiet. He had stopped at the village
tavern and was talking to one of the customers, Mulla Nasrudin, about
staying at his farm.
"I think I'd like to stay up at your farm," the artist said,
"provided there is some good scenery. Is there very much to see up
there?"
"I am afraid not " said Nasrudin. "of course, if you look
out the front door you can See the barn across the road, but if you look
out the back door, you can't See anything but mountains for the next
forty miles."

21.  Mulla Nasrudin and his wife were sitting on a bench in the park one
evening just at dusk. Without knowing that they were close by, a young
man and his girl friend sat down at a bench on the other side of a
hedge.
Almost immediately, the young man began to talk in the most loving
manner imaginable.
"He does not know we are sitting here," Mulla Nasrudin's
wife whispered to her husband. "It sounds like he is going to
propose to her. I think you should cough or something and warn him."
"Why should I warn him?" asked Nasrudin. "Nobody warned
me."

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
Hi Ed,

Wonderful stories, thanks for posting it.

siska

> Kirk,
>
> I don't know of a tradition or culture that doesn't use stories to
instruct. But I am aware that Sufism is well known for that.
>
> ...Bill!

> > Dear Bill
> >
> > There is a tradition in Sufism where teaching stories are used to
instruct,
> > enlighten, etc . . .
> >
> > best wishes
> >
> > Kirk

The Exploits of the Incomparable Mulla Nasrudin, Idries Shah, Simon and
Schuster, 1966. New York, p. 110  Moment in Time
"What is Fate?" Nasrudin was asked by a Scholar.

Re: [Zen] Re: Greetings

2011-01-29 Thread siska_cen

lfriend to marry him.
But she seemed undecided.
"If I should say no to you" she said, "would you commit
suicide?"
"That," said Nasrudin gallantly, "has been my usual
procedure."

13. The young lady had said she would marry him, and Mulla Nasrudin
was holding her tenderly. "I wonder what your folks will think,"
he said. "Do they know that I write poetry?"
"Not yet, Honey," she said. "i have told them about your
drinking and gambling, but i thought i'd better not tell them
everything at once."

   14.   Mulla Nasrudin was looking over greeting cards.
The salesman said, "Here's a nice one – "to the only
girl i ever loved."
"wonderful," said Nasrudin. "i will take six."

   15.   "Well, Nasrudin, my boy," said his uncle, "my
congratulations! I hear you are engaged to one of the pretty Noyes
twins."
"Rather!" replied Mulla Nasrudin, heartily.
"But," said his uncle, "how on earth do you manage to tell
them apart?"
"Oh," said Nasrudin. "I Dont Try!"

   16.   "And are mine the only lips, Mulla, you have kissed?"
asked she.
"Yes," said Nasrudin, "and they are the sweetest of
all."

17.   "There just is not any justice in this world," said Mulla
Nasrudin to a friend. "I used to be a 97-pound weakling, and
whenever I went to the beach with my girl, this big 197-pound bully came
over and kicked sand in my face. I decided to do something about it, so
I took a weight-lifting course and after a while I weighed 197
pounds."
"So what happened?" his friend asked.
"Well, after that," said Nasrudin, "whenever i went to the
beach with my girl, a 257-pound bully kicked sand in my face."

18.   "Dorothy, your boyfriend, Mulla Nasrudin, seems very
bashful," said Mama to her daughter.
"Bashful!" echoed the daughter, "bashful is no name for
it."
"Why don't you encourage him a little more? Some men have to be
taught how to do their courting.He's a good catch."
"Encourage him!" said the daughter, "he cannot take the most
palpable hint. Why, only last night when I sat all alone on the sofa, he
perched up in a chair as far away as he could get. I asked him if he
didn't think it strange that a man's arm and a woman's waist
seemed always to be the same length, and what do you think he did?"
"Why, just what any sensible man would have done – tried
it."
"NO," said the daughter. "He asked me if i could find a
piece of string so we could measure and see if it was so."

19.   Mulla Nasrudin, visiting India, was told he should by all means go
on a tiger hunt before returning to his country.
"It's easy," he was assured. "You simply tie a bleating
goat in a thicket as night comes on. The cries of the animal will
attract a tiger. You are up in a nearby tree. When the tiger arrives,
aim your gun between his eyes and blast away."
When the Mulla returned from the hunt he was asked how he made out.
"No luck at all," said Nasrudin.
"Those tigers are altogether too clever for me. They Travel in
Pairs,  and Each one closes an eye. So, of course, I Missed them every
time."

   20.   An artist was hunting a spot where he could spend a week or two
and do some work in peace and quiet. He had stopped at the village
tavern and was talking to one of the customers, Mulla Nasrudin, about
staying at his farm.
"I think I'd like to stay up at your farm," the artist said,
"provided there is some good scenery. Is there very much to see up
there?"
"I am afraid not " said Nasrudin. "of course, if you look
out the front door you can See the barn across the road, but if you look
out the back door, you can't See anything but mountains for the next
forty miles."

21.  Mulla Nasrudin and his wife were sitting on a bench in the park one
evening just at dusk. Without knowing that they were close by, a young
man and his girl friend sat down at a bench on the other side of a
hedge.
Almost immediately, the young man began to talk in the most loving
manner imaginable.
"He does not know we are sitting here," Mulla Nasrudin's
wife whispered to her husband. "It sounds like he is going to
propose to her. I think you should cough or something and warn him."
"Why should I warn him?" asked Nasrudin. "Nobody warned
me."

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
Hi Ed,

Wonderful stories, thanks for posting it.

siska

> Kirk,
>
> I don't know of a tradition or culture that doesn't use stories to
instruct. But I am aware that Sufism is well known for that.
>
> ...Bill!

> > Dear Bill
> >
> >

Re: [Zen] Re: Greetings

2011-01-30 Thread siska_cen

think,"
he said. "Do they know that I write poetry?"
"Not yet, Honey," she said. "i have told them about your
drinking and gambling, but i thought i'd better not tell them
everything at once."

   14.   Mulla Nasrudin was looking over greeting cards.
The salesman said, "Here's a nice one – "to the only
girl i ever loved."
"wonderful," said Nasrudin. "i will take six."

   15.   "Well, Nasrudin, my boy," said his uncle, "my
congratulations! I hear you are engaged to one of the pretty Noyes
twins."
"Rather!" replied Mulla Nasrudin, heartily.
"But," said his uncle, "how on earth do you manage to tell
them apart?"
"Oh," said Nasrudin. "I Dont Try!"

   16.   "And are mine the only lips, Mulla, you have kissed?"
asked she.
"Yes," said Nasrudin, "and they are the sweetest of
all."

17.   "There just is not any justice in this world," said Mulla
Nasrudin to a friend. "I used to be a 97-pound weakling, and
whenever I went to the beach with my girl, this big 197-pound bully came
over and kicked sand in my face. I decided to do something about it, so
I took a weight-lifting course and after a while I weighed 197
pounds."
"So what happened?" his friend asked.
"Well, after that," said Nasrudin, "whenever i went to the
beach with my girl, a 257-pound bully kicked sand in my face."

18.   "Dorothy, your boyfriend, Mulla Nasrudin, seems very
bashful," said Mama to her daughter.
"Bashful!" echoed the daughter, "bashful is no name for
it."
"Why don't you encourage him a little more? Some men have to be
taught how to do their courting.He's a good catch."
"Encourage him!" said the daughter, "he cannot take the most
palpable hint. Why, only last night when I sat all alone on the sofa, he
perched up in a chair as far away as he could get. I asked him if he
didn't think it strange that a man's arm and a woman's waist
seemed always to be the same length, and what do you think he did?"
"Why, just what any sensible man would have done – tried
it."
"NO," said the daughter. "He asked me if i could find a
piece of string so we could measure and see if it was so."

19.   Mulla Nasrudin, visiting India, was told he should by all means go
on a tiger hunt before returning to his country.
"It's easy," he was assured. "You simply tie a bleating
goat in a thicket as night comes on. The cries of the animal will
attract a tiger. You are up in a nearby tree. When the tiger arrives,
aim your gun between his eyes and blast away."
When the Mulla returned from the hunt he was asked how he made out.
"No luck at all," said Nasrudin.
"Those tigers are altogether too clever for me. They Travel in
Pairs,  and Each one closes an eye. So, of course, I Missed them every
time."

   20.   An artist was hunting a spot where he could spend a week or two
and do some work in peace and quiet. He had stopped at the village
tavern and was talking to one of the customers, Mulla Nasrudin, about
staying at his farm.
"I think I'd like to stay up at your farm," the artist said,
"provided there is some good scenery. Is there very much to see up
there?"
"I am afraid not " said Nasrudin. "of course, if you look
out the front door you can See the barn across the road, but if you look
out the back door, you can't See anything but mountains for the next
forty miles."

21.  Mulla Nasrudin and his wife were sitting on a bench in the park one
evening just at dusk. Without knowing that they were close by, a young
man and his girl friend sat down at a bench on the other side of a
hedge.
Almost immediately, the young man began to talk in the most loving
manner imaginable.
"He does not know we are sitting here," Mulla Nasrudin's
wife whispered to her husband. "It sounds like he is going to
propose to her. I think you should cough or something and warn him."
"Why should I warn him?" asked Nasrudin. "Nobody warned
me."

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
Hi Ed,

Wonderful stories, thanks for posting it.

siska

> Kirk,
>
> I don't know of a tradition or culture that doesn't use stories to
instruct. But I am aware that Sufism is well known for that.
>
> ...Bill!

> > Dear Bill
> >
> > There is a tradition in Sufism where teaching stories are used to
instruct,
> > enlighten, etc . . .
> >
> > best wishes
> >
> > Kirk

The Exploits of the Incomparable Mulla Nasrudin, Idries Shah, Simon and
Schuster, 1966. New York, p. 110  Moment in Time
"What is Fate?" Nasrudin was asked by a Scholar.

Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 1

2011-02-12 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

Err anything wrong with my mail or 'blank' is 1st lesson? ;-)

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 08:50:19 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 1


Lesson 1

 
  ...Bill!

Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 1

2011-02-12 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

I'm reading my mails from blackberry and I've allowed for HTML. Somehow, it 
still doesn't show.

Too bad, got to wait until I'm on my PC then

Thanks,
Siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 09:44:49 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 1

I think you'll either have to change the mail format for these posts to RICH 
TEXT or HTML to display the link properly; or the easist is to just go to the 
Yahoo! Zen Forum website for Lesson 1...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> 
> Err anything wrong with my mail or 'blank' is 1st lesson? ;-)
> 
> Siska
> -Original Message-
> From: "Bill!" 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 08:50:19 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 1
> 
> 
> Lesson 1
> 
>  
> <http://www.billsmart.com/mp3/This%20is%20Your%20Life%20-%20Dust%20Broth\
> ers.mp3>  ...Bill!
>

Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

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Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 1

2011-02-12 Thread siska_cen

Hi Mayka,

The link first appeared like this in Bill's original post:

But in later posts, it shows! Thanks for suggesting it, I've downloaded the mp3.

siska

-Original Message-
From: Maria Lopez 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 14:10:48 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 1

Siska:

Have you tried to click over the blue tittle "lesson 1"?.  It's a mp3 sound 
track and I've been able to download it without problems.  Thanks Bill.  

Mayka

--- On Sat, 12/2/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 1
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 12 February, 2011, 11:48

Hi Bill,

I'm reading my mails from blackberry and I've allowed for HTML. Somehow, it 
still doesn't show.

Too bad, got to wait until I'm on my PC then

Thanks,
Siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 09:44:49 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 1

I think you'll either have to change the mail format for these posts to RICH 
TEXT or HTML to display the link properly; or the easist is to just go to the 
Yahoo! Zen Forum website for Lesson 1...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> 
> Err anything wrong with my mail or 'blank' is 1st lesson? ;-)
> 
> Siska
> -Original Message-
> From: "Bill!" 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 08:50:19 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 1
> 
> 
> Lesson 1
> 
> 
> <http://www.billsmart.com/mp3/This%20is%20Your%20Life%20-%20Dust%20Broth\
> ers.mp3> ...Bill!
>

Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 1

2011-02-12 Thread siska_cen

Hi All,


You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake
You are the same decaying organic matter as everything else
---

Just wondering, why are we not snowflake but decaying organic matter? Aren't 
these two the same?

siska


-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 16:28:50 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 1




The Dust Brothers Lyrics - This Is Your LifeAnd you open the door and
you step inside We're inside our hearts Now imagine your pain as a white
ball of healing light That's right, your pain The pain itself is a white
ball of healing light I don't think so  This is your life, good to the
last drop Doesn't get any better than this This is your life and it's
ending one minute at a time  This isn't a seminar, this isn't a weekend
retreat Where you are now you can't even imagine what the bottom will be
like Only after disaster can we be resurrected It's only after you've
lost everything that you're free to do anything Nothing is static,
everything is appaling, everything is falling apart  This is your life,
this is your life, this is your life, this is your life Doesn't get any
better than this This is your life, this is your life, this is your
life, this is your life And it and it's ending one-minute at a time  You
are not a beautiful and unique snowflake You are the same decaying
organic matter as everything else We are all part of the same compost
heap We are the all singing, all dancing, crap of the world  You are not
your bank account You are not the clothes you wear You are not the
contents of your wallet You are not your bowel cancer You are not your
grande latte You are not the car you drive You are not your fucking
khaki's  You have to give up, you have to give up You have to realize
that someday you will die Until you know that, you are useless  I say
let me never be complete I say may I never be content I say deliver me
from Swedish furniture I say deliver me from clever arts I say deliver
me from clear skin and perfect teeth I say you have to give up I say
evolve, and let the chips fall where they may  This is your life, this
is your life, this is your life, this is your life Doesn't get any
better than this This is your life, this is your life, this is your
life, this is your life And it and it's ending one-minute at a time  You
have to give up, you have to give up I want you to hit me as hard as you
can I want you to hit me as hard as you can  Welcome to Fight Club If
this is your first night, you have to fight
http://www.lyricsbox.com/the-dust-brothers-lyrics-this-is-your-life-xw3p\
5mb.html




--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
> Can anyone write the lyrics of lesson 1 mp3?.  I'm afraid I don't get
it entirely.  Thanks.
>
> Mayka

Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 1

2011-02-13 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

Ah I see

Would there be any Lesson 2? :-)

siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 13 Feb 2011 11:46:01 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 1

Siska,

Yes.  They are the same.  The song/poem is speaking to the people who think 
they are not the same thing - which is about 99% of the population.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi All,
> 
> 
> You are not a beautiful and unique snowflake
> You are the same decaying organic matter as everything else
> ---
> 
> Just wondering, why are we not snowflake but decaying organic matter? Aren't 
> these two the same?
> 
> siska
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: "ED" 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sat, 12 Feb 2011 16:28:50 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 1
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The Dust Brothers Lyrics - This Is Your LifeAnd you open the door and
> you step inside We're inside our hearts Now imagine your pain as a white
> ball of healing light That's right, your pain The pain itself is a white
> ball of healing light I don't think so  This is your life, good to the
> last drop Doesn't get any better than this This is your life and it's
> ending one minute at a time  This isn't a seminar, this isn't a weekend
> retreat Where you are now you can't even imagine what the bottom will be
> like Only after disaster can we be resurrected It's only after you've
> lost everything that you're free to do anything Nothing is static,
> everything is appaling, everything is falling apart  This is your life,
> this is your life, this is your life, this is your life Doesn't get any
> better than this This is your life, this is your life, this is your
> life, this is your life And it and it's ending one-minute at a time  You
> are not a beautiful and unique snowflake You are the same decaying
> organic matter as everything else We are all part of the same compost
> heap We are the all singing, all dancing, crap of the world  You are not
> your bank account You are not the clothes you wear You are not the
> contents of your wallet You are not your bowel cancer You are not your
> grande latte You are not the car you drive You are not your fucking
> khaki's  You have to give up, you have to give up You have to realize
> that someday you will die Until you know that, you are useless  I say
> let me never be complete I say may I never be content I say deliver me
> from Swedish furniture I say deliver me from clever arts I say deliver
> me from clear skin and perfect teeth I say you have to give up I say
> evolve, and let the chips fall where they may  This is your life, this
> is your life, this is your life, this is your life Doesn't get any
> better than this This is your life, this is your life, this is your
> life, this is your life And it and it's ending one-minute at a time  You
> have to give up, you have to give up I want you to hit me as hard as you
> can I want you to hit me as hard as you can  Welcome to Fight Club If
> this is your first night, you have to fight
> http://www.lyricsbox.com/the-dust-brothers-lyrics-this-is-your-life-xw3p\
> 5mb.html
> <http://www.lyricsbox.com/the-dust-brothers-lyrics-this-is-your-life-xw3\
> p5mb.html>
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
> >
> > Can anyone write the lyrics of lesson 1 mp3?.  I'm afraid I don't get
> it entirely.  Thanks.
> >
> > Mayka
>






Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links







Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 2

2011-02-14 Thread siska_cen

Hi all,

Can anyone please re-send the link for me because it didn't show in my mailbox 
again.

Thanks, 
siska
-Original Message-
From: Maria Lopez 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 10:22:05 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 2

Thanks Bill;
 
Can anyone paste the lyrics?
Thanks.
Mayka
 
 
--- On Mon, 14/2/11, Bill!  wrote:


From: Bill! 
Subject: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 2
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 14 February, 2011, 8:45


  




Lesson 2
 ...Bill!

Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 2

2011-02-15 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

Mayka has kindly sent me the file :-)
Thanks!

Btw, I cannot receive my own posts lately. Is it the current list setting?

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 09:30:55 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 2

Siska,  Just go to my personal website www.billsmart.com and click on the 
jukebox.  Both these songs are on there...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> 
> Can anyone please re-send the link for me because it didn't show in my 
> mailbox again.
> 
> Thanks, 
> siska
> -Original Message-
> From: Maria Lopez 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 10:22:05 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 2
> 
> Thanks Bill;
> Â 
> Can anyone paste the lyrics?
> Thanks.
> Mayka
> Â 
> Â 
> --- On Mon, 14/2/11, Bill!  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> Subject: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 2
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, 14 February, 2011, 8:45
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lesson 2
> Â ...Bill!
>

Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
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Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 2

2011-02-15 Thread siska_cen

Bill,

Err now, I just received my post.

Btw, I don't really get the message on this lesson, kind of waiting for others' 
responses, actually :-p

Siska
-Original Message-
From: siska_...@yahoo.com
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 11:14:10 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 2

Hi Bill,

Mayka has kindly sent me the file :-)
Thanks!

Btw, I cannot receive my own posts lately. Is it the current list setting?

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 09:30:55 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 2

Siska,  Just go to my personal website www.billsmart.com and click on the 
jukebox.  Both these songs are on there...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi all,
> 
> Can anyone please re-send the link for me because it didn't show in my 
> mailbox again.
> 
> Thanks, 
> siska
> -Original Message-
> From: Maria Lopez 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 10:22:05 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 2
> 
> Thanks Bill;
> Â 
> Can anyone paste the lyrics?
> Thanks.
> Mayka
> Â 
> Â 
> --- On Mon, 14/2/11, Bill!  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> Subject: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 2
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, 14 February, 2011, 8:45
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Lesson 2
> Â ...Bill!
>

Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links

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Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 2

2011-02-17 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

Thanks for checking.

Hope to have no issues when lesson 3 comes ;-)

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2011 01:00:51 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 2

Siska,

You membership settings looked okay to me.  I did change the post format from 
Traditional to Fully Featured.  Maybe that will help.  Let me know if you have 
anymore problems...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> 
> Mayka has kindly sent me the file :-)
> Thanks!
> 
> Btw, I cannot receive my own posts lately. Is it the current list setting?
> 
> Siska
> -Original Message-
> From: "Bill!" 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 15 Feb 2011 09:30:55 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 2
> 
> Siska,  Just go to my personal website www.billsmart.com and click on the 
> jukebox.  Both these songs are on there...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> > 
> > Can anyone please re-send the link for me because it didn't show in my 
> > mailbox again.
> > 
> > Thanks, 
> > siska
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Maria Lopez 
> > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Mon, 14 Feb 2011 10:22:05 
> > To: 
> > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 2
> > 
> > Thanks Bill;
> > Ã‚Â 
> > Can anyone paste the lyrics?
> > Thanks.
> > Mayka
> > Ã‚Â 
> > Ã‚Â 
> > --- On Mon, 14/2/11, Bill!  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > From: Bill! 
> > Subject: [Zen] The Zen I Practice - Lesson 2
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Monday, 14 February, 2011, 8:45
> > 
> > 
> > Ã‚Â  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Lesson 2
> > Ã‚Â ...Bill!
> >
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are 
> reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
>

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

2011-02-17 Thread siska_cen

Hi Anthony,

> When you have acute pain, e.g. from cancer, you would have big trouble 
> convincing yourself that it is just illusion.

I think this applies to any case, not just cancer. However, to me, the problem 
seems to lie at the need of convincing. When one see the pain as illusion, then 
it is an illusion. When one does not see the pain as illusion, then it is not 
an illusion. Any efforts to convince oneself that it is otherwise would be 
really difficult. 

In my case, it would never work. 

siska

-Original Message-
From: Anthony Wu 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 06:07:29 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

Steve,
 
You say, "Nagarjuna
said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
reality are incurable."
 
So we should not discount everything as illusion.
 
You also say, " Gotama wasn't
trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha."
 
When you have acute pain, e.g. from cancer, you would have big trouble 
convincing yourself that it is just illusion.
 
Gotama also says the world is like a man hit by a poisonous arrow. The first 
thing to do is to pull it out and cure the disease. Then, I think, we should 
think about why he was hit by an arrow. It includes the question of karma.
 
Anthony

--- On Thu, 17/2/11, SteveW  wrote:


From: SteveW 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 2:01 AM


  





--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Steve,
> Â 
> Neither I nor my demon are responsible for your karmic misfortunes. No bribes 
> can alleviate your problems. BTW, do you believe in karma? If not, what rules 
> this universe?
> Â 
> Anthony
>
> Hi Anthony. If everything is "One Bright Jewel" as Dogen put it,
then all this talk of "my" karma and "your" karma is meaningless.
For that matter, if the arrow of time is an illusion and everything
is Here and Now, then karmic cause-and-effect is also an illusion.
You think that the past causes the future, but there is no reason
not to say that the future causes the past! (There have been physics
experiments demonstrating this aspect of quantum weirdness.) When
Nagarjuna wrote his famous Negations, he wasn't, imo, trying to 
give us an ontological explanation of reality, but nobody can 
that. So everybody tries to turn Emptiness into a fixed view-point.
As I have said before, the basic Buddhist teachings on karma, the
12-fold chain of Dependant Origination and the teachings on
impermanence and no-self are useful expedients for practice, but
cannot be taken for a final and absolute explanation. I refer you
to The Mahaparanirvana Sutra and the Dzogchen literature on this.
The fact is that it will always be a Mystery from our finite, 
relative, rational view-points, because we cannot step outside
of What Is in order to look at What Is. But we can rest in that
Such-As-It-Is peacefully. So I really can't answer your question,
Anthony, and I suspect that neither can anyone else. Gotama wasn't
trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha. But, as Nagarjuna
said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
reality are incurable. IMO.
Steve 
>

Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

2011-02-17 Thread siska_cen

Hi Anthony,

> When a psychological pain occurrs, one can see it as an illusion and it can 
> go away. 

To me, seeing it as 'illusion' does not make the pain go away. Its existence 
just does not trouble me as much and I don't really suffer from the pain.

>When a physical pain appears, one cannot eliminate it with any thoughts, but 
>you can use Mayka's method of 'making friends' with it, and will learn to live 
>with it with more equinimity.

This method, is similar to convincing myself that the pain is just an illusion. 
It works for Mayka, but doesn't work for me.

Anyway, I don't have actual experience with cancer pain either, so when it 
comes to it, the above is also only an assumption.

Siska
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Wu 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 18:26:21 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

Siska,

Without my own experiences, I can only make the following assumptions:

When a psychological pain occurrs, one can see it as an illusion and it can go 
away.

When a physical pain appears, one cannot eliminate it with any thoughts, but 
you can use Mayka's method of 'making friends' with it, and will learn to live 
with it with more equinimity.

Anthony

--- On Thu, 17/2/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 5:46 PM

Hi Anthony,

> When you have acute pain, e.g. from cancer, you would have big trouble 
> convincing yourself that it is just illusion.

I think this applies to any case, not just cancer. However, to me, the problem 
seems to lie at the need of convincing. When one see the pain as illusion, then 
it is an illusion. When one does not see the pain as illusion, then it is not 
an illusion. Any efforts to convince oneself that it is otherwise would be 
really difficult. 

In my case, it would never work. 

siska

From: Anthony Wu  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Thu, 17 Feb 2011 06:07:29 +0800 (SGT)
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit

Steve,

You say, "Nagarjuna
said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
reality are incurable."

So we should not discount everything as illusion.

You also say, " Gotama wasn't
trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha."

When you have acute pain, e.g. from cancer, you would have big trouble 
convincing yourself that it is just illusion.

Gotama also says the world is like a man hit by a poisonous arrow. The first 
thing to do is to pull it out and cure the disease. Then, I think, we should 
think about why he was hit by an arrow. It includes the question of karma.

Anthony

--- On Thu, 17/2/11, SteveW  wrote:

From: SteveW 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Experience Merit
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thursday, 17 February, 2011, 2:01 AM

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Steve,
> Â 
> Neither I nor my demon are responsible for your karmic misfortunes. No bribes 
> can alleviate your problems. BTW, do you believe in karma? If not, what rules 
> this universe?
> Â 
> Anthony
>
> Hi Anthony. If everything is "One Bright Jewel" as Dogen put it,
then all this talk of "my" karma and "your" karma is meaningless.
For that matter, if the arrow of time is an illusion and everything
is Here and Now, then karmic cause-and-effect is also an illusion.
You think that the past causes the future, but there is no reason
not to say that the future causes the past! (There have been physics
experiments demonstrating this aspect of quantum weirdness.) When
Nagarjuna wrote his famous Negations, he wasn't, imo, trying to 
give us an ontological explanation of reality, but nobody can 
that. So everybody tries to turn Emptiness into a fixed view-point.
As I have said before, the basic Buddhist teachings on karma, the
12-fold chain of Dependant Origination and the teachings on
impermanence and no-self are useful expedients for practice, but
cannot be taken for a final and absolute explanation. I refer you
to The Mahaparanirvana Sutra and the Dzogchen literature on this.
The fact is that it will always be a Mystery from our finite, 
relative, rational view-points, because we cannot step outside
of What Is in order to look at What Is. But we can rest in that
Such-As-It-Is peacefully. So I really can't answer your question,
Anthony, and I suspect that neither can anyone else. Gotama wasn't
trying to explain reality to us. He was just giving us a skillful
medical prescription to cure us of our Dukkha. But, as Nagarjuna
said, those who try to turn Emptiness into a fixed explanation of
reality are incurable. IMO.
Steve 
>

Re: [Zen] Change

2011-02-25 Thread siska_cen

Hi V,

Don't we all change, all the time? ;-)

siska
-Original Message-
From: "V" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 01:37:52 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Change

Sorry I haven't been around in awhileI've been reading the posts in the 
group, but I myself haven't posted in many months. I do have a question, 
however.
Can people change? And by change, I mean can people change in a very 
fundamental manner? If so, how is it done?

Re: [Zen] Change

2011-02-25 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

It seems like I still have problem with my postings. Just replied to this post 
but didn't receive the mail. I think I didn't receive a few of my earlier posts 
either. Is it only me, or the all members did not receive my post either?

siska
-Original Message-
From: "V" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 01:37:52 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Change

Sorry I haven't been around in awhileI've been reading the posts in the 
group, but I myself haven't posted in many months. I do have a question, 
however.
Can people change? And by change, I mean can people change in a very 
fundamental manner? If so, how is it done?

Re: [Zen] mail problems(to Siska/list)

2011-02-26 Thread siska_cen

Hello Mel,

Interesting, I never see myself as 'super mobile' before, but you suspect 
right, I don't have the luxury to sit quietly reading emails from a desk-top. 
Oh well, I guess I could if I REALLY want to, but. ;-)

siska

-Original Message-
From: Mel 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 05:04:03 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] mail problems(to Siska/list)

Hello Siska and all

I have the impression that people with so-called 'super mobiles' not only here 
but in other online forums I've been to are having problems accessing their 
mail sometimes. I'm of current opinion that perhaps it may be better to make 
time to take care of internet activities with an actual desk-top or mobile 
unit, whether one has at home or by making use of net-cafes, just as I do

Just my thoughts

Buddha be praised 
Mel
gunnar19632...@yahoo.com.au

--- On Sat, 26/2/11, Bill!  wrote:

From: Bill! 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Change
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Received: Saturday, 26 February, 2011, 2:14 PM

Is anyone else having a problem receiving posts in their email box?

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> 
> It seems like I still have problem with my postings. Just replied to this 
> post but didn't receive the mail. I think I didn't receive a few of my 
> earlier posts either. Is it only me, or the all members did not receive my 
> post either?
> 
> siska
> -Original Message-
> From: "V" 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 01:37:52 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Zen] Change
> 
> Sorry I haven't been around in awhileI've been reading the posts in the 
> group, but I myself haven't posted in many months. I do have a question, 
> however.
> Can people change? And by change, I mean can people change in a very 
> fundamental manner? If so, how is it done?
>

Re: [Zen] Change

2011-02-26 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

Seems like only me, so most probably the problem lies with my mail setting. I 
seem to receive everyone else's post but mine. 

Anyway, it's alright.

Thanks,
siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 03:14:48 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Change

Is anyone else having a problem receiving posts in their email box?

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> 
> It seems like I still have problem with my postings. Just replied to this 
> post but didn't receive the mail. I think I didn't receive a few of my 
> earlier posts either. Is it only me, or the all members did not receive my 
> post either?
> 
> siska
> -Original Message-
> From: "V" 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 01:37:52 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Zen] Change
> 
> Sorry I haven't been around in awhileI've been reading the posts in the 
> group, but I myself haven't posted in many months. I do have a question, 
> however.
> Can people change? And by change, I mean can people change in a very 
> fundamental manner? If so, how is it done?
>

Re: [Zen] Change

2011-02-27 Thread siska_cen

Bill,

Just tried it, and I could receive my own email. So I guess it's not the spam 
setting either.

Sometimes I could receive my posts, sometimes I could not. Perhaps sometimes 
'I' exist, sometimes 'I' don't.


-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 09:37:30 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Change

Maybe you have a setting that prohibits you from receiving email from you own 
email address.  This is a common setting in SPAM filters.  Check it out, or try 
sending an email to yourself.  Of course your 'self' doesn't really exist so 
you probably won't get any email ;>)

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> 
> Seems like only me, so most probably the problem lies with my mail setting. I 
> seem to receive everyone else's post but mine. 
> 
> Anyway, it's alright.
> 
> Thanks,
> siska
> -Original Message-
> From: "Bill!" 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 03:14:48 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Change
> 
> Is anyone else having a problem receiving posts in their email box?
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> >
> > Hi Bill,
> > 
> > It seems like I still have problem with my postings. Just replied to this 
> > post but didn't receive the mail. I think I didn't receive a few of my 
> > earlier posts either. Is it only me, or the all members did not receive my 
> > post either?
> > 
> > siska
> > -Original Message-
> > From: "V" 
> > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 01:37:52 
> > To: 
> > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: [Zen] Change
> > 
> > Sorry I haven't been around in awhileI've been reading the posts in the 
> > group, but I myself haven't posted in many months. I do have a question, 
> > however.
> > Can people change? And by change, I mean can people change in a very 
> > fundamental manner? If so, how is it done?
> >
>

Re: [Zen] Change

2011-02-28 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

:-)

Thanks,
siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 28 Feb 2011 01:14:53 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Change

[Siska] Perhaps sometimes 'I' exist, sometimes 'I' don't.

[Bill!] Yeah, I know the feeling well...

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Bill,
> 
> Just tried it, and I could receive my own email. So I guess it's not the spam 
> setting either.
> 
> Sometimes I could receive my posts, sometimes I could not. Perhaps sometimes 
> 'I' exist, sometimes 'I' don't.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: "Bill!" 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sun, 27 Feb 2011 09:37:30 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Change
> 
> Maybe you have a setting that prohibits you from receiving email from you own 
> email address.  This is a common setting in SPAM filters.  Check it out, or 
> try sending an email to yourself.  Of course your 'self' doesn't really exist 
> so you probably won't get any email ;>)
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> >
> > Hi Bill,
> > 
> > Seems like only me, so most probably the problem lies with my mail setting. 
> > I seem to receive everyone else's post but mine. 
> > 
> > Anyway, it's alright.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > siska
> > -Original Message-
> > From: "Bill!" 
> > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 03:14:48 
> > To: 
> > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Change
> > 
> > Is anyone else having a problem receiving posts in their email box?
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Bill,
> > > 
> > > It seems like I still have problem with my postings. Just replied to this 
> > > post but didn't receive the mail. I think I didn't receive a few of my 
> > > earlier posts either. Is it only me, or the all members did not receive 
> > > my post either?
> > > 
> > > siska
> > > -Original Message-
> > > From: "V" 
> > > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Date: Sat, 26 Feb 2011 01:37:52 
> > > To: 
> > > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: [Zen] Change
> > > 
> > > Sorry I haven't been around in awhileI've been reading the posts in 
> > > the group, but I myself haven't posted in many months. I do have a 
> > > question, however.
> > > Can people change? And by change, I mean can people change in a very 
> > > fundamental manner? If so, how is it done?
> > >
> >
>

Re: [Zen] Re: Christian Zen

2011-03-25 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

> I've never heard of any Christian meditation that was similar to shikantaza 
> (clear mind) meditation

There is a book called 'The Experience of No-Self' by Bernadette Roberts, who 
was a Catholic nun. Her descriptions seem to be rather similar to shikantaza to 
me although I have no idea of her meditation method since I only read the 
book's excerpt. Wonder if you or anyone here have read the book and I'd be 
interested to know your opinion.

Siska

-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 09:47:58 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Christian Zen

JMJM,

This is not what I thought you meant, although I still might interested in this 
activity also.

What kind of meditation are you intending to teach/recommend?

Christianity already has lots of meditative practices.  An example is the 
Catholic ritual of praying using Rosary Beads.  This involves reciting the 
Apostle's Creed at the crucifix, an 'Our Father' at the first large bead, three 
'Hail Marys' on the next three beads, then a 'Glory be to the Father' on the 
next large bead, and then proceeds with the cyclic repetition of 'Hail Marys' 
and 'Our Fathers'.

The constant repetition of all these short prayers soon become similar to 
chanting mantras or working on a breakthrough koan and can result in the 
cessation of the descriminating mind.

I've never heard of any Christian meditation that was similar to shikantaza 
(clear mind) meditation; or that emphasize breathing or recommend specfic 
postures.  Have you?

Some Christian sects also have fasting, bowing or self-flaggelation techniques 
that could lead to a clear-mind state.

Is it your intention to teach them Chan/zen meditation or to encourage them to 
practice their native-Christian meditative practices?

...Bill!  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - è¦ºå¦™ç²¾æ˜Ž 
 wrote:
>
> Excellent, Bill..  Now here is my preliminary plan..
> 
> We will launch Adword in April with keywords such as depression, stress, 
> insomnia, etc. to get people to learn meditation.  At the same time, we 
> will be starting a movement on Facebook titled, "Meditate First" = 
> "whether you are Chrisitan, Buddhist, Muslin, Jew, rich or poor, before 
> you act, talk, think, Meditate First."  Sort of...
> 
> Both of these will aggregate witnesses in health and spirituality, just 
> from opposite ends.  Therefore, there will be one web area, be it 
> tumblr, or facebook page, or part of meditatefirst.org, where witnesses 
> are posted.
> 
> Both chan-meditation.org(from what are the benefits) and 
> meditatefirst.org (to connect deeper to Christ) will link to this place.
> 
> The idea is not to compare zen/Chan with Christianity, or teach 
> Christians about zen/Chan, but get Christians to Meditate First.  They 
> will automatically deepen their faith or read Bible differently.  
> Therefore, in these articles, there will be no need to mention Zen or 
> Chan, just how to meditate to be closer to God.
> 
> Please let me know your thoughts.  If you can think of an outline, I can 
> setup anything in one week -- joomla 1.5 or just Tumblr.  Then you can 
> enter the content.  I would not have time to read anything.  I have a 
> lot to do.
> 
> * Our Family Oneness program is successful into libraries.
> * Corporate Oneness programs is piloted into corporations.
> * Personal oneness program to hit the US through Adword.
> * A 200 people Chan Center is in the process being located.
> * 10 classes a week to support.
> 
> Let us do something.  Everyone is welcome.
> 
> BTW, Not sure I mentioned this before, my Teacher and another well known 
> Teacher both mentioned about one month ago, we MUST get more people to 
> meditate to quiet the karmic events arriving soon.
> 
> No wonder I have sensing urgency for awhile.  Just do what we can.  
> Together.
> 
> Many Thanks.  A bow to ALL.
> JM
> 
> Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
> http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
> http://www.heartchan.org
> 
> 
> On 3/24/2011 5:36 PM, Bill! wrote:
> >
> > JMJM,
> >
> > I would be interested in participating in this. I was brought up as a 
> > Christian and have gone through a lot of Bible study. I agree 
> > wholeheartedly with your premise.
> >
> > If you haven't already read it, I'd suggest you find a copy of a small 
> > book called THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO ZEN. It's theme is the same as the 
> > one you've described.
> >
> > ...Bill!
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com , 
> > Jue Miao Jing Ming - Ã¨Â¦ÂºÃ¥Â¦â„¢Ã§Â²Â¾Ã¦ËœÅ½  wrote:
> > >
> > > Good Morning Steve and anyone who is interested to help,
> > >
> > > I wanted to incorporate a zen way to deepen the "Christian faith" on 
> > our
> > > websites, but I don't know the Bible enough.
> > >
> > > The intent is...
> > >
> > > * To show that Chan/zen and christian faith are one of the same.
> > > * Enabling the reading

Re: [Zen] Re: Christian Zen

2011-03-25 Thread siska_cen

Hello Ed,

I tend to think that those who turn the so-called no-self experience into 
'financial enterprise' and those who keep mum, both exist in West and East Asia.

I don't think I understand how your comment relates to Bernadette Roberts. Is 
she one of those who uses her experience for financial benefits?

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 13:56:54 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Christian Zen

Siska,

It is interesting to note the difference in mind-set here in the West
vs. in East Asia.

Here one experiences 'no-self' and turns it into a financial enterprise;
whereas in East Asia one just keeps mum.

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> > I've never heard of any Christian meditation that was similar to
shikantaza (clear mind) meditation
>
> There is a book called 'The Experience of No-Self' by Bernadette
Roberts, who was a Catholic nun. Her descriptions seem to be rather
similar to shikantaza to me although I have no idea of her meditation
method since I only read the book's excerpt. Wonder if you or anyone
here have read the book and I'd be interested to know your opinion.
>
> Siska

Re: [Zen] Re: Christian Zen

2011-03-25 Thread siska_cen

Hi Mayka,

Thanks for the link!

Siska
-Original Message-
From: Maria Lopez 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 14:13:54 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Christian Zen

Hi Siska:

I can't make comments as never heard before this Author.  Pasting to you and 
all an interview with the Author Bernadette Roberts.  Fascinating.  Thanks a 
lot to make us know about such an interesting person.

http://lightgate.net/boards/viewtopic.php?topic_view=threads&p=1019&t=180&sid=16cf15a5378657d6a1ca231e31e4bdaa

Mayka

--- On Fri, 25/3/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Christian Zen
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 25 March, 2011, 13:01

Hi Bill,

> I've never heard of any Christian meditation that was similar to shikantaza 
> (clear mind) meditation

There is a book called 'The Experience of No-Self' by Bernadette Roberts, who 
was a Catholic nun. Her descriptions seem to be rather similar to shikantaza to 
me although I have no idea of her meditation method since I only read the 
book's excerpt. Wonder if you or anyone here have read the book and I'd be 
interested to know your opinion.

Siska

From: "Bill!"  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 09:47:58 -
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Christian Zen

JMJM,

This is not what I thought you meant, although I still might interested in this 
activity also.

What kind of meditation are you intending to teach/recommend?

Christianity already has lots of meditative practices. An example is the 
Catholic ritual of praying using Rosary Beads. This involves reciting the 
Apostle's Creed at the crucifix, an 'Our Father' at the first large bead, three 
'Hail Marys' on the next three beads, then a 'Glory be to the Father' on the 
next large bead, and then proceeds with the cyclic repetition of 'Hail Marys' 
and 'Our Fathers'.

The constant repetition of all these short prayers soon become similar to 
chanting mantras or working on a breakthrough koan and can result in the 
cessation of the descriminating mind.

I've never heard of any Christian meditation that was similar to shikantaza 
(clear mind) meditation; or that emphasize breathing or recommend specfic 
postures. Have you?

Some Christian sects also have fasting, bowing or self-flaggelation techniques 
that could lead to a clear-mind state.

Is it your intention to teach them Chan/zen meditation or to encourage them to 
practice their native-Christian meditative practices?

...Bill! 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Jue Miao Jing Ming - è¦ºå¦™ç²¾æ˜Ž 
 wrote:
>
> Excellent, Bill.. Now here is my preliminary plan..
> 
> We will launch Adword in April with keywords such as depression, stress, 
> insomnia, etc. to get people to learn meditation. At the same time, we 
> will be starting a movement on Facebook titled, "Meditate First" = 
> "whether you are Chrisitan, Buddhist, Muslin, Jew, rich or poor, before 
> you act, talk, think, Meditate First." Sort of...
> 
> Both of these will aggregate witnesses in health and spirituality, just 
> from opposite ends. Therefore, there will be one web area, be it 
> tumblr, or facebook page, or part of meditatefirst.org, where witnesses 
> are posted.
> 
> Both chan-meditation.org(from what are the benefits) and 
> meditatefirst.org (to connect deeper to Christ) will link to this place.
> 
> The idea is not to compare zen/Chan with Christianity, or teach 
> Christians about zen/Chan, but get Christians to Meditate First. They 
> will automatically deepen their faith or read Bible differently. 
> Therefore, in these articles, there will be no need to mention Zen or 
> Chan, just how to meditate to be closer to God.
> 
> Please let me know your thoughts. If you can think of an outline, I can 
> setup anything in one week -- joomla 1.5 or just Tumblr. Then you can 
> enter the content. I would not have time to read anything. I have a 
> lot to do.
> 
> * Our Family Oneness program is successful into libraries.
> * Corporate Oneness programs is piloted into corporations.
> * Personal oneness program to hit the US through Adword.
> * A 200 people Chan Center is in the process being located.
> * 10 classes a week to support.
> 
> Let us do something. Everyone is welcome.
> 
> BTW, Not sure I mentioned this before, my Teacher and another well known 
> Teacher both mentioned about one month ago, we MUST get more people to 
> meditate to quiet the karmic events arriving soon.
> 
> No wonder I have sensing urgency for awhile. Just do what we can. 
> Together.
> 
> Many Thanks. A bow to ALL.
> JM
> 
> Be Enlightened In This Life - We ALL Can
> http://chanjmjm.blogspot.com
> http://www.heartchan.org
> 
> 
> On 3/24/2011 5:36 PM, Bill! wrote:
> >
> > JMJM,
> >
> > I would be interested in participating in this. I was brought up as a 
> > Christian and have gone through a lot of Bible study. I agree 
> > wholeh

Re: [Zen] Re: Christian Zen

2011-03-25 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed,

I suppose that should apply to individuals too? ;-)

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 25 Mar 2011 15:56:03 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Christian Zen

Hello siska,

You are quite right.

In any particular society, if someone points to a putative negative
quirk in itself, then it must be the case that all societies possess
that quirk too.

But, if in any society, a putative negative quirk in pointed to in some
other society, then it is their's and their's alone and is definitely
not shared by our own society.

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hello Ed,
>
> I tend to think that those who turn the so-called no-self experience
into 'financial enterprise' and those who keep mum, both exist in West
and East Asia.
>
> I don't think I understand how your comment relates to Bernadette
Roberts. Is she one of those who uses her experience for financial
benefits?
>
> Siska

Re: [Zen] An Opinion of Thich Nhat Hanh

2011-03-30 Thread siska_cen

Hi Mike,

> My own feeling about the precepts is that they in fact describe the life 
> lived after awakening.rather than before.

There are times when I really wish this forum has that 'Like' button to click 
like what they have in facebook. 
This is one of those times :-)

Siska
-Original Message-
From: mike brown 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 30 Mar 2011 03:43:31 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] An Opinion of Thich Nhat Hanh

Steve,

I think there are a couple of ways at looking at the precepts and how they 
apply 
to our practice. First of all, they were developed for the followers of Buddha 
and his immediate sangha i.e monks. Anyone on a retreat or sesshin can attest 
to 
the fact that the precepts are easier to follow in such a setting. Of course, 
they weren't posited because they are easy to follow, but because any course of 
intensive meditation requires a mind not stirred up by the things the precepts 
'prohibits'. For example, killing a mosquito or gossiping about someone on a 
sesshin causes so much mental energy that prolonged, intensive  meditation 
is difficult (mental dissonance). A second point is that following the precepts 
(whether by monks or laypeople) can create such a psychological (some would say 
spiritual) ambience that an awakening is much more possible. My own feeling 
about the precepts is that they in fact describe the life lived after 
awakening.rather than before. 

Mike





From: SteveW 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, 30 March, 2011 3:03:44
Subject: [Zen] An Opinion of Thich Nhat Hanh

  
"If we don't practice the precepts, we aren't practicing mindfulness. I know 
some Zen students who think that they can practice meditation without 
practicing 
precepts, but that is not correct. The heart of Buddhist meditation is the 
practice of the precepts. You cannot meditate without practicing the precepts."
-from The Heart of The Buddha's Teaching, page 82
Any comments?
Steve

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-02 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed,

Based on the article, Sri Ramana's view on 'I-mind' is similar to that of Jiddu 
Krishnamurti. The method, however, does not seem to be really similar. 

---
Sri Ramana taught that since the individual `I'-thought cannot exist without an 
object, if attention is focused on the subjective feeling of `I' or `I am' with 
such intensity that the thoughts `I am this' or `I am that' do not arise, then 
the individual `I' will be unable to connect with objects.
---

I don't know much about zen yet, so I don't know if it is similar to zen.

siska
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 01 Apr 2011 13:59:19 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

Mike, Bill, Steve and All,

In your judgment, is the perspective of Zen on meditation practice the
same as, similar to or different from that of Ramana Maharshi?

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
"From:  "Be As You Are"

Sri Ramana Maharshi taught that every conscious activity of the mind or
body, for example `I think', `I remember', 'I feel' `I am acting', [I am
mindful. ?] etc., revolves around the tacit assumption that there is an
individual `I' who is doing something, a common factor and mental
fiction termed the `I'-thought (a translation of Aham-Vritti, which
literally means `mental modification of `I').

He equated individuality with the mind and the mind with the `I'-thought
which is dependent upon identification with an object, and said that
after Self-realization there is no thinker of thoughts, no performer of
actions and no awareness of individual existence.

When the thoughts arise, he said, the `I'-thought claims ownership of
them- `I think', `I believe', `I want', `I am acting'.

In reality, there is no separate `I' that exists independently of the
objects that it is identifying with, rather, an incessant flow of
misidentifications based on an initial assumption that the `I' is
individual and associated with the bodily form.

He considered this `I am the body' idea as the primary source of all
subsequent wrong identifications and its dissolution as the principal
aim of self-enquiry.

Sri Ramana taught that since the individual `I'-thought cannot exist
without an object, if attention is focused on the subjective feeling of
`I' or `I am' with such intensity that the thoughts `I am this' or `I am
that' do not arise, then the individual `I' will be unable to connect
with objects.

If this awareness of `I' is sustained, the individual `I' (the
`I'-thought) will disappear. In its place will be a direct experience of
the Self. This constant attention to the inner awareness of `I' or `I
am' is called self-enquiry (atma vichara).

Sri Ramana Maharshi frequently recommended it as the most efficient and
direct way of discovering the unreality of the `I'-thought.

He taught that the `I'-thought will finally disappear when the
perception of all objects, both physical and mental, cease and only
Self- awareness exists.

This is not brought about by being aware of an `I', but only by BEING
the `I'.

This stage of experiencing the subject rather than being aware of an
object is the culminating phase of self-enquiry.

This important distinction is what distinguishes self-enquiry from most
other spiritual practices.

It also explains why Sri Ramana Maharshi consistently maintained that
most other practices were ineffective.

  He often pointed out that traditional meditations and yoga practices
were predicated on the existence of a subject who meditates on an object
and he would usually add that such a relationship sustained the
`I'-thought instead of eliminating it.

In his view such practices may effectively quieten the mind, and they
may even produce blissful experiences, but they will never culminate in
Self-realisation because the `I'-thought is not being isolated and seen
to have no real existence."

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>
> We just have to be careful with mindfulness - it's very much a
double-edged sword in that it can be the catalyst for awakening to
reality, but it can also make us think we've 'got it' when in fact it's
nothing but our ego taking a very subtle rest.

> Also, we need to get past the way we think of mindfulness. In the
beginning we tend to find ourselves consciously employing it at specific
times. "Right, I've done the tidying up, taken a shower and washed the
dishes. Now I'm  going to take the dog out and really focus on what I'm
doing, feel the wind on my face, not zone out and follow any thoughts
and really be here" All well and good.

> But what we've also done there, by definition, is to separate
ourselves between not being mindfull and being mindful which in turn
also reinforces the sense of separateness from our intrinsic awareness
of Budhha.

>  In simple terms, there is an awareness that is unborn and undying
right now which in Vedanta is expressed

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-02 Thread siska_cen

Hi Mike,

Like like like

:-)
siska
-Original Message-
From: mike brown 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 1 Apr 2011 10:45:28 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

Mayka, 

Yes, that would be an "extraordinary thought"!! It's not the living in the 
present moment that's the problem, it's the belief that there are moments we're 
not *always* living in the now (i.e "Damn, I was caught up in my thoughts for a 
while there. Better start being mindful and get back into living in the now." 
This is wrong thinking. We're always living in the now - it's never not now. 
Mindfulness doesn't "take" us there. As Alan Watts said, 'Where ever you go - 
there you are."  

Mike

From: Maria Lopez 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Fri, 1 April, 2011 7:08:42
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

Mike;

How it comes that living the present moment in awareness could become a double 
edged sword?.  It never crossed my mind thinking "I've got mindfulness, 
yup-iii!", what an extraordinary thought!. 

  However, I admit that I only practise diligent mindfulness most of times when 
I'm in my last legs.  A bit like the Christians praying to God when they want 
something,  with the difference that here the miracle is operated by oneself 
work. Well, at least I found the door and also know how to open it.  Are there 
more doors than this?.  

Mayka

--- On Thu, 31/3/11, mike brown  wrote:

>From: mike brown 
>Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>Date: Thursday, 31 March, 2011, 22:31
>
>
>  
>Mayka,
>
>We just have to be careful with mindfulness - it's very much a double-edged 
>sword in that it can be the catalyst for awakening to reality, but it can also 
>make us think we've 'got it' when in fact it's nothing but our ego taking a 
>very 
>subtle rest. Also, we need to get past the way we think of mindfulness. In the 
>beginning we tend to find ourselves consciously employing it at specific 
>times. 
>"Right, I've done the tidying up, taken a shower and washed the dishes. Now 
>I'm 
>going to take the dog out and really focus on what I'm doing, feel the wind on 
>my face, not zone out and follow any thoughts and really be here" All well and 
>good. But what we've also done there, by definition, is to separate ourselves 
>between not being mindfull and being mindful which in turn also reinforces the 
>sense of separateness from our intrinsic awareness of Budhha. In simple 
>terms, there is an awareness that is unborn and undying right now whichin 
>Vedanta is expressed as 'I Am'. That awareness is right there with you when 
>you're washing the dishes and putting out the rubbish and is there prior to 
>just 
>when you think, "Now I'm going to practice mindfulness" and it's there when 
>you 
>stop being mindful.
>
>Mike
>
>
>
>

From: Maria Lopez 
>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>Sent: Thu, 31 March, 2011 7:39:29
>Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
>
>  
>Mike:
>
>That's right Mike. However, previous indications in the map and tools 
>were most 
>useful to experience reality as it is,  and not as we imagine it to be.  
>
>
>Mayka
>
>
>--- On Wed, 30/3/11, mike brown  wrote:
>
>
>>From: mike brown 
>>Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
>>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>>Date: Wednesday, 30 March, 2011, 22:21
>>
>>
>>  
>>Mayka,
>>
>>>Bill has a point. The less adds on the most likely to experience reality as 
>>>it 
>>>is.   
>>
>>Taken to the ultimate conclusion being that we don't need *any* of the 
>>precepts 
>>in mind to "experience reality as it is".
>>
>>Mike
>>
>>
>>
>>

From: Maria Lopez 
>>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>>Sent: Thu, 31 March, 2011 4:52:54
>>Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
>>
>>  
>>Bill has a point. The less adds on the most likely to experience reality as 
>>it 
>>is.   
>> 
>>At the same time Steve also has a point.  Living philosophies may embrace in 
>>compassion the whole universe. 
>>
>> 
>>Mayka
>>
>>--- On Wed, 30/3/11, SteveW  wrote:
>>
>>
>>>From: SteveW 
>>>Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
>>>To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>>>Date: Wednesday, 30 March, 2011, 17:52
>>>
>>>
>>>  
>>>
>>>
>>>--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:

 Steve,

 I fundamentally disagree.

 Buddhism, as well as Judiasm/Christianity/Islam, and all other religions I 
 know 
about are based on the essense of zen. They are all, including Buddhism, 
just 
layers that have been built up around zen and serve to occlude the essense 
of 
zen to varying extents. I will say that Buddhism has the least occluding 
layers 
of the religions I have read about, but it still has a lot.

 ...Bill!

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-02 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed,

That is true, if non-dualism is an end point for us to arrive to :-)

siska
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 02 Apr 2011 17:42:08 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse



Hi siska,

Perhaps 'same, similar or different' do not matter provided the same
end-point (nondualism) is arrived at.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Ed,
>
> Based on the article, Sri Ramana's view on 'I-mind' is similar to that
of Jiddu Krishnamurti. The method, however, does not seem to be really
similar.
>
> ---
> Sri Ramana taught that since the individual `I'-thought cannot exist
without an object, if attention is focused on the subjective feeling of
`I' or `I am' with such intensity that the thoughts `I am this' or `I am
that' do not arise, then the individual `I' will be unable to connect
with objects.
> ---
>
> I don't know much about zen yet, so I don't know if it is similar to
zen.
>
> siska

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-03 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed,

I was about to ask your views on non-dualism, but I am guessing your view is 
represented by the article here and in your other post. And I agree with what 
is being said here.

The other article was fine too, in terms of putting non-dualism and zen into 
words. My view is that non-dualism is here and now (as in Hakuin's song), 
instead of some destination point, which you seemed to imply in your previous 
post.

siska
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 03 Apr 2011 07:17:55 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

Hi siska,

You may want to ask Bill, Mike, Steve and Mayka their views on Zen and
non-dualism.

--ED

PS: Excerpt from:
http://crazycloudnz.wordpress.com/2010/09/21/a-discussion-of-the-book-of\
-atheist-spirituality-by-arthur-wells/
<http://crazycloudnz.wordpress.com/2010/09/21/a-discussion-of-the-book-o\
f-atheist-spirituality-by-arthur-wells/>

" Why do I say that Zen Buddhism in particular has no true parallel in
Western thought? Because Zen is the realisation of the non-dual nature
of reality.

Strange to say, such radical non-dualism is not cultivated in any
Western system of thought or religious practice. Non-dualism does appear
at times in Western thought, mainly as the polarised positions of
Idealism and Materialism.

No middle ground that would fit the Zen position has been well worked
over in Western philosophy, although mystical non-dualism has a rich
presence in Western literature, for example in the poetry of Wordsworth
and Blake.

How is Zen radically non-dualist? Take Hakuin's "Song of
Zazen," for example.  At the climax of the poem he says "Singing
and dancing are the voice of the law…Nirvana is right here, before
our eyes, this very place is the Lotus Land, this very body the
Buddha." This is clearly Hakuin's expression of his religious
ecstasy, but the content is completely of this world.

No hidden world or level of reality is implied. This is the hallmark of
Zen. Nothing in Zen is viewed as more real or valuable than that which
is vividly apparent through our senses: "Great mystery, wonderful
powers of mind, chopping wood and drawing water!" Or, as Ross
Bolleter Roshi is fond of saying, "Nothing is more profound than
breakfast!"

As a brief aside here, Zen is significantly different even from its
closest relative in Eastern thought, Advaita Vedanta, because Vedanta
maintains that the physical universe is illusory (the only reality being
the spiritual substrate, Brahman, which from the Buddhist point of view
is an example of the heresy of Eternalism).

Hegelians wouldn't have much trouble with that, but they would with
Zen, because Zen, as Hee-Jin Kim says, is "mystical realism,"
(the term is in the title of Kim's book on Dogen). Here is the core
of the problem – Kim has put together two terms that don't
cohabit in Western thought, because Western thought is still deeply
mired in the dualisms of God and the world, spirit and matter, heaven
and earth. I can find only a few contemporary scientists who in the way
they think and write are getting close to the non-dualism of Zen."

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Ed,
>
> That is true, if non-dualism is an end point for us to arrive to :-)
>
> siska

> Hi siska,
>
> Perhaps 'same, similar or different' do not matter provided the same
> end-point (nondualism) is arrived at.
>
> --ED

> > Hi Ed,
> >
> > Based on the article, Sri Ramana's view on 'I-mind' is similar to
that
> of Jiddu Krishnamurti. The method, however, does not seem to be really
> similar.
> >
> > ---
> > Sri Ramana taught that since the individual `I'-thought cannot exist
> without an object, if attention is focused on the subjective feeling
of
> `I' or `I am' with such intensity that the thoughts `I am this' or `I
am
> that' do not arise, then the individual `I' will be unable to connect
> with objects.
> > ---
> >
> > I don't know much about zen yet, so I don't know if it is similar to
> zen.
> >
> > siska

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-04 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed,

The way I understand it is as follows: 'Non-dualism' is a conception.
[siska] don't really get why it is a conception

The non-dual and the dualistic states are mind-states in which we experience 
reality non-dually or dualistically respectively.[siska] agree with you

Most humans experience reality dualistically, 
[siska] agree with you

until they succeed in making the switch (which of course is not necessarily 
or usually ongoing.)
[siska] the way I see it, this happens when it happens. Nobody is making the 
switch. We can try to make the switch, but it won't happen until it happens. 
And when it happens, nobody can switch it back.

siska

-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 01:28:35 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse



Hi siska,

The way I understand it is as follows: 'Non-dualism' is a conception.

The non-dual and the dualistic states are mind-states in which we
experience reality non-dually or dualistically respectively.

Most humans experience reality dualistically, until they succeed in
making the switch (which of course is not necessarily or usually
ongoing.)

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Ed,
>
> I was about to ask your views on non-dualism, but I am guessing your
view is represented by the article here and in your other post. And I
agree with what is being said here.
>
> The other article was fine too, in terms of putting non-dualism and
zen into words. My view is that non-dualism is here and now (as in
Hakuin's song), instead of some destination point, which you seemed to
imply in your previous post.
>
> siska



> Hi siska,
>
> You may want to ask Bill, Mike, Steve and Mayka their views on Zen and
> non-dualism.
>
> --ED
>
> PS: Excerpt from:
>
http://crazycloudnz.wordpress.com/2010/09/21/a-discussion-of-the-book-of\
-atheist-spirituality-by-arthur-wells/
<http://crazycloudnz.wordpress.com/2010/09/21/a-discussion-of-the-book-o\
f-atheist-spirituality-by-arthur-wells/>

> " Why do I say that Zen Buddhism in particular has no true parallel in
> Western thought? Because Zen is the realisation of the non-dual nature
> of reality.
>
> Strange to say, such radical non-dualism is not cultivated in any
> Western system of thought or religious practice. Non-dualism does
appear
> at times in Western thought, mainly as the polarised positions of
> Idealism and Materialism.
>
> No middle ground that would fit the Zen position has been well worked
> over in Western philosophy, although mystical non-dualism has a rich
> presence in Western literature, for example in the poetry of
Wordsworth
> and Blake.
>
> How is Zen radically non-dualist? Take Hakuin's "Song of
> Zazen," for example. At the climax of the poem he says "Singing
> and dancing are the voice of the lawâ€¦Nirvana is right here,
before
> our eyes, this very place is the Lotus Land, this very body the
> Buddha." This is clearly Hakuin's expression of his religious
> ecstasy, but the content is completely of this world.
>
> No hidden world or level of reality is implied. This is the hallmark
of
> Zen. Nothing in Zen is viewed as more real or valuable than that which
> is vividly apparent through our senses: "Great mystery, wonderful
> powers of mind, chopping wood and drawing water!" Or, as Ross
> Bolleter Roshi is fond of saying, "Nothing is more profound than
> breakfast!"
>
> As a brief aside here, Zen is significantly different even from its
> closest relative in Eastern thought, Advaita Vedanta, because Vedanta
> maintains that the physical universe is illusory (the only reality
being
> the spiritual substrate, Brahman, which from the Buddhist point of
view
> is an example of the heresy of Eternalism).
>
> Hegelians wouldn't have much trouble with that, but they would with
> Zen, because Zen, as Hee-Jin Kim says, is "mystical realism,"
> (the term is in the title of Kim's book on Dogen). Here is the core
> of the problem â€" Kim has put together two terms that don't
> cohabit in Western thought, because Western thought is still deeply
> mired in the dualisms of God and the world, spirit and matter, heaven
> and earth. I can find only a few contemporary scientists who in the
way
> they think and write are getting close to the non-dualism of Zen."




> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> >
> > Hi Ed,
> >
> > That is true, if non-dualism is an end point for us to arrive to :-)
> >
> > siska




> > Hi siska,
> >
> > Perhaps 'same, similar or different' do not matter provided the same
> > end-point (nondualism) is arrived at.
> >
> > --ED

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-04 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed,

I quite like the way you put it.

Lately, on my way to work each morning, I notice that the sky has become more 
beautiful, clear blue with beautiful white clouds here and there. I wonder if 
the sky has really changed or it is me who is now looking at it differently. 
Illusions?

:-)
siska
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 04 Apr 2011 13:20:17 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse



> > ... until they succeed in making the switch (which of course is not
necessarily or usually ongoing.)
> [siska] the way I see it, this happens when it happens. Nobody is
making the switch. We can try to make the switch, but it won't happen
until it happens. And when it happens, nobody can switch it back.


siska,

After adequate Zen or other practice, I think that an experience of the
non-dual mind-state switches back and forth, without the individual's
choice - like is the casse in some optical illusions:

http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=optical+illusions&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sou\
rce=univ&sa=X&ei=mL-ZTbmpDY7YiAK09emcCQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1014&bih=540
<http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=optical+illusions&um=1&ie=UTF-8&so\
urce=univ&sa=X&ei=mL-ZTbmpDY7YiAK09emcCQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1014&bih=540> 
.

With more practice, the mind may prefer the non-dual state over the
dualistic state. Possibly for a few, the non-dual state will become
ongoing after sufficient Zen or other practice.

I repeat: Bill would be a better person to expound on this issue.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Ed,
>
> The way I understand it is as follows: 'Non-dualism' is a conception.
> [siska] don't really get why it is a conception
>
> The non-dual and the dualistic states are mind-states in which we
experience reality non-dually or dualistically respectively.[siska]
agree with you
>
> Most humans experience reality dualistically,
> [siska] agree with you
>
> until they succeed in making the switch (which of course is not
necessarily orÂ usually ongoing.)
> [siska] the way I see it, this happens when it happens. Nobody is
making the switch. We can try to make the switch, but it won't happen
until it happens. And when it happens, nobody can switch it back.
>
> siska



> Hi siska,
>
> The way I understand it is as follows: 'Non-dualism' is a conception.
>
> The non-dual and the dualistic states are mind-states in which we
> experience reality non-dually or dualistically respectively.
>
> Most humans experience reality dualistically, until they succeed in
> making the switch (which of course is not necessarily or usually
> ongoing.)
>
> --ED
>
>
>
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> >
> > Hi Ed,
> >
> > I was about to ask your views on non-dualism, but I am guessing your
> view is represented by the article here and in your other post. And I
> agree with what is being said here.
> >
> > The other article was fine too, in terms of putting non-dualism and
> zen into words. My view is that non-dualism is here and now (as in
> Hakuin's song), instead of some destination point, which you seemed to
> imply in your previous post.
> >
> > siska


> > Hi siska,
> >
> > You may want to ask Bill, Mike, Steve and Mayka their views on Zen
and
> > non-dualism.
> >
> > --ED

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-04 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

I can only follow you up to half of your post. Can you please explain more on 
this part?

-
This is a matter of how illusions are accomodated. If you become attached to 
the illusions of non-dualism/dualism then they come and go, but are mutually 
exclusive. If you are not attached to these illusions (or any illusions) they 
come and go, but are universally inclusive
-

Thanks,
Siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 00:13:51 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

Bill! expounds...

This is not a matter of non-duality/duality, it's a matter of awareness.  
Duality is an illusion - probably the Mother of All Illusions.  The concept of 
non-duality is also an illusion.

Illusions come and go.  This might be the 'switching back and forth' you are 
talking about.

Awareness (Buddha Nature) is persistent.

This is a matter of how illusions are accomodated.  If you become attached to 
the illusions of non-dualism/dualism then they come and go, but are mutually 
exclusive.  If you are not attached to these illusions (or any illusions) they 
come and go, but are universally inclusive.

That's the best I can do this morning before my first cup of tea...Bill!



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> > > ... until they succeed in making the switch (which of course is not
> necessarily or usually ongoing.)
> > [siska] the way I see it, this happens when it happens. Nobody is
> making the switch. We can try to make the switch, but it won't happen
> until it happens. And when it happens, nobody can switch it back.
> 
> 
> siska,
> 
> After adequate Zen or other practice, I think that an experience of the
> non-dual mind-state switches back and forth, without the individual's
> choice - like is the casse in some optical illusions:
> 
> http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=optical+illusions&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sou\
> rce=univ&sa=X&ei=mL-ZTbmpDY7YiAK09emcCQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1014&bih=540
> <http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=optical+illusions&um=1&ie=UTF-8&so\
> urce=univ&sa=X&ei=mL-ZTbmpDY7YiAK09emcCQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1014&bih=540> 
> .
> 
> With more practice, the mind may prefer the non-dual state over the
> dualistic state. Possibly for a few, the non-dual state will become
> ongoing after sufficient Zen or other practice.
> 
> I repeat: Bill would be a better person to expound on this issue.
> 
> --ED
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> >
> > Hi Ed,
> >
> > The way I understand it is as follows: 'Non-dualism' is a conception.
> > [siska] don't really get why it is a conception
> >
> > The non-dual and the dualistic states are mind-states in which we
> experience reality non-dually or dualistically respectively.[siska]
> agree with you
> >
> > Most humans experience reality dualistically,
> > [siska] agree with you
> >
> > until they succeed in making the switch (which of course is not
> necessarily orÂ usually ongoing.)
> > [siska] the way I see it, this happens when it happens. Nobody is
> making the switch. We can try to make the switch, but it won't happen
> until it happens. And when it happens, nobody can switch it back.
> >
> > siska
> 
> 
> 
> > Hi siska,
> >
> > The way I understand it is as follows: 'Non-dualism' is a conception.
> >
> > The non-dual and the dualistic states are mind-states in which we
> > experience reality non-dually or dualistically respectively.
> >
> > Most humans experience reality dualistically, until they succeed in
> > making the switch (which of course is not necessarily or usually
> > ongoing.)
> >
> > --ED
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Ed,
> > >
> > > I was about to ask your views on non-dualism, but I am guessing your
> > view is represented by the article here and in your other post. And I
> > agree with what is being said here.
> > >
> > > The other article was fine too, in terms of putting non-dualism and
> > zen into words. My view is that non-dualism is here and now (as in
> > Hakuin's song), instead of some destination point, which you seemed to
> > imply in your previous post.
> > >
> > > siska
> 
> 
> > > Hi siska,
> > >
> > > You may want to ask Bill, Mike, Steve and Mayka their views on Zen
> and
> > > non-dualism.
> > >
> > > --ED
>

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-05 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

This is a lot clearer, thanks!

-
When in deep samadhi they are certainly halted, but begin again after coming 
out of samadhi. This is not good and not bad
-
As much as it is good and bad?

For me, when I see things as illusory, things are illusory as they are. But 
when I don't see it that way (the awareness is not there), things are not real 
because I remind myself that they are not real.

When it comes to decision making, we need to think within certain framework, 
which are, perhaps almost always, illusory. I think making big decisions with 
non-attachment attitude that does not come from the awareness takes a lot of 
courage. I wonder if it is wise to do. I'd love to learn your thoughts on this.

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 10:00:24 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

Siska,

I've had my tea now.

I'll try to communicate my thoughts on this again in a slightly different way.

Illusions come and go.  I don't know how to completly stop them, or indeed if 
they can be stopped, or if stopping them entirely would be a wise thing to do.  
When in deep samadhi they are certainly halted, but begin again after coming 
out of samadhi.  This is not good and not bad.

The important thing is not to worry about creating illusions (such as the 
concepts of dualism/non-dualism), but to avoid becoming attached to these 
illusions.  By 'attached' I mean believing they are real or important or have 
some kind of significance, or anything more than just illusions - passing 
clouds in the sky: sometimes white and fluffy, sometimes dark and foreboding, 
sometimes taking familar shapes, sometimes forming no discernable patterns at 
all.  Just clouds.  Just illusions.

I hope that is more understandable.  It sounds better to me...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> 
> I can only follow you up to half of your post. Can you please explain more on 
> this part?
> 
> -
> This is a matter of how illusions are accomodated. If you become attached to 
> the illusions of non-dualism/dualism then they come and go, but are mutually 
> exclusive. If you are not attached to these illusions (or any illusions) they 
> come and go, but are universally inclusive
> -
> 
> Thanks,
> Siska
> -Original Message-
> From: "Bill!" 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 05 Apr 2011 00:13:51 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
> 
> Bill! expounds...
> 
> This is not a matter of non-duality/duality, it's a matter of awareness.  
> Duality is an illusion - probably the Mother of All Illusions.  The concept 
> of non-duality is also an illusion.
> 
> Illusions come and go.  This might be the 'switching back and forth' you are 
> talking about.
> 
> Awareness (Buddha Nature) is persistent.
> 
> This is a matter of how illusions are accomodated.  If you become attached to 
> the illusions of non-dualism/dualism then they come and go, but are mutually 
> exclusive.  If you are not attached to these illusions (or any illusions) 
> they come and go, but are universally inclusive.
> 
> That's the best I can do this morning before my first cup of tea...Bill!
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > > > ... until they succeed in making the switch (which of course is not
> > necessarily or usually ongoing.)
> > > [siska] the way I see it, this happens when it happens. Nobody is
> > making the switch. We can try to make the switch, but it won't happen
> > until it happens. And when it happens, nobody can switch it back.
> > 
> > 
> > siska,
> > 
> > After adequate Zen or other practice, I think that an experience of the
> > non-dual mind-state switches back and forth, without the individual's
> > choice - like is the casse in some optical illusions:
> > 
> > http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=optical+illusions&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sou\
> > rce=univ&sa=X&ei=mL-ZTbmpDY7YiAK09emcCQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1014&bih=540
> > <http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=optical+illusions&um=1&ie=UTF-8&so\
> > urce=univ&sa=X&ei=mL-ZTbmpDY7YiAK09emcCQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1014&bih=540> 
> > .
> > 
> > With more practice, the mind may prefer the non-dual state over the
> > dualistic state. Possibly for a few, the non-dual state will become
> > ongoing after sufficient Ze

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-05 Thread siska_cen

t; > 
> > After adequate Zen or other practice, I think that an experience of the
> > non-dual mind-state switches back and forth, without the individual's
> > choice - like is the casse in some optical illusions:
> > 
> > http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=optical+illusions&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sou\
> > rce=univ&sa=X&ei=mL-ZTbmpDY7YiAK09emcCQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1014&bih=540
> > <http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=optical+illusions&um=1&ie=UTF-8&so\
> > urce=univ&sa=X&ei=mL-ZTbmpDY7YiAK09emcCQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1014&bih=540> 
> > .
> > 
> > With more practice, the mind may prefer the non-dual state over the
> > dualistic state. Possibly for a few, the non-dual state will become
> > ongoing after sufficient Zen or other practice.
> > 
> > I repeat: Bill would be a better person to expound on this issue.
> > 
> > --ED
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Ed,
> > >
> > > The way I understand it is as follows: 'Non-dualism' is a conception.
> > > [siska] don't really get why it is a conception
> > >
> > > The non-dual and the dualistic states are mind-states in which we
> > experience reality non-dually or dualistically respectively.[siska]
> > agree with you
> > >
> > > Most humans experience reality dualistically,
> > > [siska] agree with you
> > >
> > > until they succeed in making the switch (which of course is not
> > necessarily orÃ‚ usually ongoing.)
> > > [siska] the way I see it, this happens when it happens. Nobody is
> > making the switch. We can try to make the switch, but it won't happen
> > until it happens. And when it happens, nobody can switch it back.
> > >
> > > siska
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > Hi siska,
> > >
> > > The way I understand it is as follows: 'Non-dualism' is a conception.
> > >
> > > The non-dual and the dualistic states are mind-states in which we
> > > experience reality non-dually or dualistically respectively.
> > >
> > > Most humans experience reality dualistically, until they succeed in
> > > making the switch (which of course is not necessarily or usually
> > > ongoing.)
> > >
> > > --ED
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Ed,
> > > >
> > > > I was about to ask your views on non-dualism, but I am guessing your
> > > view is represented by the article here and in your other post. And I
> > > agree with what is being said here.
> > > >
> > > > The other article was fine too, in terms of putting non-dualism and
> > > zen into words. My view is that non-dualism is here and now (as in
> > > Hakuin's song), instead of some destination point, which you seemed to
> > > imply in your previous post.
> > > >
> > > > siska
> > 
> > 
> > > > Hi siska,
> > > >
> > > > You may want to ask Bill, Mike, Steve and Mayka their views on Zen
> > and
> > > > non-dualism.
> > > >
> > > > --ED
> >
>

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-06 Thread siska_cen

 
> something permanent but not as muchÂ the coming and going occurring in the 
> form.
> Â 
> I imagine the form of body and mind with all its sophisticatedÂ implications 
> as the waves of the ocean.Â  In it's coming and going, continuously born and 
> continuously dying, they all have in common the water.Â  They're all made of 
> the same.Â Â Water is the nature of the wave in the ocean.Â  But for that 
> matter of that seconds the water takes the form of an impermanent high, 
> low...Â wave.Â  Is the form of the wave an illusion?...It all depends under 
> what kind of perspective is seen.
> Â 
> Mayka
> 
> --- On Tue, 5/4/11, Bill!  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 5 April, 2011, 1:13
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> Bill! expounds...
> 
> This is not a matter of non-duality/duality, it's a matter of awareness. 
> Duality is an illusion - probably the Mother of All Illusions. The concept of 
> non-duality is also an illusion.
> 
> Illusions come and go. This might be the 'switching back and forth' you are 
> talking about.
> 
> Awareness (Buddha Nature) is persistent.
> 
> This is a matter of how illusions are accomodated. If you become attached to 
> the illusions of non-dualism/dualism then they come and go, but are mutually 
> exclusive. If you are not attached to these illusions (or any illusions) they 
> come and go, but are universally inclusive.
> 
> That's the best I can do this morning before my first cup of tea...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > > > ... until they succeed in making the switch (which of course is not
> > necessarily or usually ongoing.)
> > > [siska] the way I see it, this happens when it happens. Nobody is
> > making the switch. We can try to make the switch, but it won't happen
> > until it happens. And when it happens, nobody can switch it back.
> > 
> > 
> > siska,
> > 
> > After adequate Zen or other practice, I think that an experience of the
> > non-dual mind-state switches back and forth, without the individual's
> > choice - like is the casse in some optical illusions:
> > 
> > http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=optical+illusions&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sou\
> > rce=univ&sa=X&ei=mL-ZTbmpDY7YiAK09emcCQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1014&bih=540
> > <http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=optical+illusions&um=1&ie=UTF-8&so\
> > urce=univ&sa=X&ei=mL-ZTbmpDY7YiAK09emcCQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1014&bih=540> 
> > .
> > 
> > With more practice, the mind may prefer the non-dual state over the
> > dualistic state. Possibly for a few, the non-dual state will become
> > ongoing after sufficient Zen or other practice.
> > 
> > I repeat: Bill would be a better person to expound on this issue.
> > 
> > --ED
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Ed,
> > >
> > > The way I understand it is as follows: 'Non-dualism' is a conception.
> > > [siska] don't really get why it is a conception
> > >
> > > The non-dual and the dualistic states are mind-states in which we
> > experience reality non-dually or dualistically respectively.[siska]
> > agree with you
> > >
> > > Most humans experience reality dualistically,
> > > [siska] agree with you
> > >
> > > until they succeed in making the switch (which of course is not
> > necessarily orÃ‚ usually ongoing.)
> > > [siska] the way I see it, this happens when it happens. Nobody is
> > making the switch. We can try to make the switch, but it won't happen
> > until it happens. And when it happens, nobody can switch it back.
> > >
> > > siska
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > Hi siska,
> > >
> > > The way I understand it is as follows: 'Non-dualism' is a conception.
> > >
> > > The non-dual and the dualistic states are mind-states in which we
> > > experience reality non-dually or dualistically respectively.
> > >
> > > Most humans experience reality dualistically, until they succeed in
> > > making the switch (which of course is not necessarily or usually
> > > ongoing.)
> > >
> > > --ED
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Ed,
> > > >
> > > > I was about to ask your views on non-dualism, but I am guessing your
> > > view is represented by the article here and in your other post. And I
> > > agree with what is being said here.
> > > >
> > > > The other article was fine too, in terms of putting non-dualism and
> > > zen into words. My view is that non-dualism is here and now (as in
> > > Hakuin's song), instead of some destination point, which you seemed to
> > > imply in your previous post.
> > > >
> > > > siska
> > 
> > 
> > > > Hi siska,
> > > >
> > > > You may want to ask Bill, Mike, Steve and Mayka their views on Zen
> > and
> > > > non-dualism.
> > > >
> > > > --ED
> >
>

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-06 Thread siska_cen

ality is also an illusion.
> 
> Illusions come and go. This might be the 'switching back and forth' you are 
> talking about.
> 
> Awareness (Buddha Nature) is persistent.
> 
> This is a matter of how illusions are accomodated. If you become attached to 
> the illusions of non-dualism/dualism then they come and go, but are mutually 
> exclusive. If you are not attached to these illusions (or any illusions) they 
> come and go, but are universally inclusive.
> 
> That's the best I can do this morning before my first cup of tea...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > > > ... until they succeed in making the switch (which of course is not
> > necessarily or usually ongoing.)
> > > [siska] the way I see it, this happens when it happens. Nobody is
> > making the switch. We can try to make the switch, but it won't happen
> > until it happens. And when it happens, nobody can switch it back.
> > 
> > 
> > siska,
> > 
> > After adequate Zen or other practice, I think that an experience of the
> > non-dual mind-state switches back and forth, without the individual's
> > choice - like is the casse in some optical illusions:
> > 
> > http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=optical+illusions&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sou\
> > rce=univ&sa=X&ei=mL-ZTbmpDY7YiAK09emcCQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1014&bih=540
> > <http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=optical+illusions&um=1&ie=UTF-8&so\
> > urce=univ&sa=X&ei=mL-ZTbmpDY7YiAK09emcCQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1014&bih=540> 
> > .
> > 
> > With more practice, the mind may prefer the non-dual state over the
> > dualistic state. Possibly for a few, the non-dual state will become
> > ongoing after sufficient Zen or other practice.
> > 
> > I repeat: Bill would be a better person to expound on this issue.
> > 
> > --ED
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > >
> > > Hi Ed,
> > >
> > > The way I understand it is as follows: 'Non-dualism' is a conception.
> > > [siska] don't really get why it is a conception
> > >
> > > The non-dual and the dualistic states are mind-states in which we
> > experience reality non-dually or dualistically respectively.[siska]
> > agree with you
> > >
> > > Most humans experience reality dualistically,
> > > [siska] agree with you
> > >
> > > until they succeed in making the switch (which of course is not
> > necessarily orÃ‚ usually ongoing.)
> > > [siska] the way I see it, this happens when it happens. Nobody is
> > making the switch. We can try to make the switch, but it won't happen
> > until it happens. And when it happens, nobody can switch it back.
> > >
> > > siska
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > Hi siska,
> > >
> > > The way I understand it is as follows: 'Non-dualism' is a conception.
> > >
> > > The non-dual and the dualistic states are mind-states in which we
> > > experience reality non-dually or dualistically respectively.
> > >
> > > Most humans experience reality dualistically, until they succeed in
> > > making the switch (which of course is not necessarily or usually
> > > ongoing.)
> > >
> > > --ED
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Hi Ed,
> > > >
> > > > I was about to ask your views on non-dualism, but I am guessing your
> > > view is represented by the article here and in your other post. And I
> > > agree with what is being said here.
> > > >
> > > > The other article was fine too, in terms of putting non-dualism and
> > > zen into words. My view is that non-dualism is here and now (as in
> > > Hakuin's song), instead of some destination point, which you seemed to
> > > imply in your previous post.
> > > >
> > > > siska
> > 
> > 
> > > > Hi siska,
> > > >
> > > > You may want to ask Bill, Mike, Steve and Mayka their views on Zen
> > and
> > > > non-dualism.
> > > >
> > > > --ED
> >
>

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-06 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

[Bill!] I don't really understand this statement well enough to respond. Why do 
qualify decisions with 'big', 
[siska] what I meant by 'big decision' is decision that have 'longer' (?) 
impact. Say, deciding to marry someone, or deciding to leave everything behind 
and go forth. I suppose we can do this by intuition, and perhaps we should. But 
sometimes I find that intuition is not intuition, there is still very subtle 
framework behind what comes up as intuition.


[Bill!] and why should they be handled differently than any other decision? 
[siska] I'd definitely be less concerned with this when it comes to deciding 
what I should have for lunch today, although I suppose this is dualism point of 
view? :-)


[Bill!] I'm not aware of any non-attachment 'attitude' that does not come from 
awareness. Where would it come from? Unless by 'non-attachment attitude' you 
just mean disinterst?
[siska] I did not mean disinterest. Now, this is a little difficult for me to 
describe.

The mind can be very tricky. Maybe, at one point, it experienced a state where 
it was 'un-attached to anything' (not sure if this is the right way of 
describing that state). When the mind is not in this state, it adopts what it 
regards as being non-attached as an 'attitude'. But because the mind is not 
actually in that state, choices and decisions made are still based on a 
framework instead of real intuition.

Feels like too much thinking going on in my head :-p

siska

-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 06 Apr 2011 14:39:38 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

Siska,

My 'thoughts on this' are embedded below:

[Siska] When it comes to decision making, we need to think within certain 
framework, which are, perhaps almost always, illusory.
[Bill!] Yes and no.  During my everyday life I make a lot of decisions.  Some 
are based on logic and some on impulse.  The ones based on logic are made 
within a logical framwork.  The ones based on impulse are not made within any 
kind of framework that I can identify. 

[Siska} I think making big decisions with non-attachment attitude that does not 
come from the awareness takes a lot of courage. I wonder if it is wise to do. 
I'd love to learn your thoughts on this.
[Bill!] I don't really understand this statement well enough to respond.  Why 
do qualify decisions with 'big', and why should they be handled differently 
than any other decision?  I'm not aware of any non-attachment 'attitude' that 
does not come from awareness.  Where would it come from?  Unless by 
'non-attachment attitude' you just mean disinterst?

...Bill!

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-07 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

That whole process of first experiencing Buddha Nature (kensho) and then 
integrating it into your life without being fooled (as I've described above) is 
the purpose of Zen Buddhist koan study.
[siska] I'd love to do koan study. It is not possible to do this without a 
teacher, is it?

Thanks for your response Bill, it was such a relief that you get what I was 
trying to say. It is always difficult for me to put it into words.

Ps: the red corvette sounds like a fun ride :-)

siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 02:10:39 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

Siska, My comments are embedded below:

> [Bill!] I don't really understand this statement well enough to respond. Why 
> do you qualify decisions with 'big', 
> [siska] what I meant by 'big decision' is decision that have 'longer' (?) 
> impact. Say, deciding to marry someone, or deciding to leave everything 
> behind and go forth. I suppose we can do this by intuition, and perhaps we 
> should. But sometimes I find that intuition is not intuition, there is still 
> very subtle framework behind what comes up as intuition.
[Bill! 2]  I know what you mean and I of course do that also.  BUT, sometimes I 
think I might FIRST make the decision basen on impulse or 'intuition' (or 
homones) and then LATER JUSTIFY it with logic.  This process can happen very, 
very quickly.  Like deciding to buy a red Corvette convertible because it will 
retain it's value.  Ha!
 
> 
> [Bill!] and why should they be handled differently than any other decision? 
> [siska] I'd definitely be less concerned with this when it comes to deciding 
> what I should have for lunch today, although I suppose this is dualism point 
> of view? :-)
[Bill! 2}  Okay, that's a key.  You're concerned with how they will affect 
'you' in the 'future'.  Both 'you' and 'future' as I'm sure you know are 
illusory - but again I must confess I do the same thing myself.
 
> [Bill!] I'm not aware of any non-attachment 'attitude' that does not come 
> from awareness. Where would it come from? Unless by 'non-attachment attitude' 
> you just mean disinterst?
> [siska] I did not mean disinterest. Now, this is a little difficult for me to 
> describe.
> 
> The mind can be very tricky. Maybe, at one point, it experienced a state 
> where it was 'un-attached to anything' (not sure if this is the right way of 
> describing that state). When the mind is not in this state, it adopts what it 
> regards as being non-attached as an 'attitude'. But because the mind is not 
> actually in that state, choices and decisions made are still based on a 
> framework instead of real intuition.
>
[Bill! 2]  I can again relate to this.  I think our discriminating mind quickly 
learns and adapts to this 'no-attachment' thing and soon begins to present 
things to you as if there are no attachments - but there are.  They're just 
hidded a little better than they used to be.  That whole process of first 
experiencing Buddha Nature (kensho) and then integrating it into your life 
without being fooled (as I've described above) is the purpose of Zen Buddhist 
koan study.  I'm also sure the process is never complete.
 
> Feels like too much thinking going on in my head :-p
>
[Bill! 2]  Yeah, I know the feeling!

...Bill!

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-07 Thread siska_cen

 of those sensations to be 
pleasant/unpleasant, good/bad, dualistic/non-dualistic are created by your 
discriminating mind and are not in and of themselves 'real'. They are 
illusions. They come and go. Physical sensations (sight, hearing, touch, smell, 
taste - the 5 categories (illusory concepts) which our discriminating mind has 
created to describe these sensation) are trying to describe something real that 
does not come and go - that is the ability to be aware of them does not come 
and go. That awareness is Buddha Mind.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bill:
> 
> Â 
> By the time you'll be receiving this mail you're tea will be cold. 
> Â 
> Â If somebody beat a finger with a hammer. Will the pain felt be real?. And 
> the answer is yes. Although the pain will be an impermanent pain still will 
> be real.
> Â 
> The different physical and mental states in the body and the mind.Â  That 
> switching waves coming and going as the waves of the ocean bringing all the 
> rainbow of duality with them.Â  The arisingÂ ofÂ different sensations such as 
> pleasantÂ , unpleasant or neutral, in allÂ the game of distinctions, duality 
> are felt as real in the realm of the form.Â  What is illusion to me here is 
> not as much the many arising sensations in themselves, but to exchange all 
> that occurring as permanent having as a result mental attachment to what is 
> happening and mental entanglement as one identifies with it as something 
> permanent happening to one.Â Forgetfulness about that everything is 
> impermanent can be aÂ causeÂ of great illusion arising in one. Â The many 
> sensations are real but not their duration as they dissolve by themselves 
> through mindfulness or awareness. 
> Â 
> To me here the realÂ massive illusion is to exchange impermanence as 
> something permanent but not as muchÂ the coming and going occurring in the 
> form.
> Â 
> I imagine the form of body and mind with all its sophisticatedÂ implications 
> as the waves of the ocean.Â  In it's coming and going, continuously born and 
> continuously dying, they all have in common the water.Â  They're all made of 
> the same.Â Â Water is the nature of the wave in the ocean.Â  But for that 
> matter of that seconds the water takes the form of an impermanent high, 
> low...Â wave.Â  Is the form of the wave an illusion?...It all depends under 
> what kind of perspective is seen.
> Â 
> Mayka
> 
> --- On Tue, 5/4/11, Bill!  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 5 April, 2011, 1:13
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> Bill! expounds...
> 
> This is not a matter of non-duality/duality, it's a matter of awareness. 
> Duality is an illusion - probably the Mother of All Illusions. The concept of 
> non-duality is also an illusion.
> 
> Illusions come and go. This might be the 'switching back and forth' you are 
> talking about.
> 
> Awareness (Buddha Nature) is persistent.
> 
> This is a matter of how illusions are accomodated. If you become attached to 
> the illusions of non-dualism/dualism then they come and go, but are mutually 
> exclusive. If you are not attached to these illusions (or any illusions) they 
> come and go, but are universally inclusive.
> 
> That's the best I can do this morning before my first cup of tea...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > > > ... until they succeed in making the switch (which of course is not
> > necessarily or usually ongoing.)
> > > [siska] the way I see it, this happens when it happens. Nobody is
> > making the switch. We can try to make the switch, but it won't happen
> > until it happens. And when it happens, nobody can switch it back.
> > 
> > 
> > siska,
> > 
> > After adequate Zen or other practice, I think that an experience of the
> > non-dual mind-state switches back and forth, without the individual's
> > choice - like is the casse in some optical illusions:
> > 
> > http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=optical+illusions&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sou\
> > rce=univ&sa=X&ei=mL-ZTbmpDY7YiAK09emcCQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1014&bih=540
> > <http://www.google.com/images?hl=en&q=optical+illusions&um=1&ie=UTF-8&so\
> > urce=univ&sa=X&ei=mL-ZTbmpDY7YiAK09emcCQ&ved=0CDcQsAQ&biw=1014&bih=540> 
> > .
> > 
> > With more practice, the mind may prefer the non-dual state over the
> > dualistic state. Possibly for a few, the non-dual

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-09 Thread siska_cen

Hi Mayka,

Sounds good to me :-)

Siska
-Original Message-
From: Mel 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 8 Apr 2011 21:28:48 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

I can't help but be reminded here of what someone taught me about the moon...to 
look at the moon in silence, for words or a pointing finger are not needed..

Buddha be praised
Mel
gunnar19632...@yahoo.com.au

..'In calmness there should be activity; in activity there should be 
calmness'...
-anonymous

--- On Sat, 9/4/11, Maria Lopez  wrote:

Siska:

If the difference between given a label to something or acknowledging something 
are not clear to you.  Skip them both.  And just be aware of whatever is going 
on in your body and surroundings.  No need to understand any word concepts 
as the most important is the awareness with everything that is arising. If you 
can have that already then you don't need more additions to it.

Mayka

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-09 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed,

> One's  least foolish choice might be to relish every fooled and foolish 
> moment in each and every moment.

And not get hooked

Siska

-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 08 Apr 2011 02:24:39 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

siska,

There is no escaping being fooled in life, whether it be by life itself,
by your partner, by oneself, by one's teacher, by the discursive mind,
or by a real or imagined kensho-satori. One's least foolish choice might
be to relish every fooled and foolish moment in each and every moment.

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> That whole process of first experiencing Buddha Nature (kensho) and
then integrating it into your life without being fooled (as I've
described above) is the purpose of Zen Buddhist koan study.
> siska

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-09 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

--
HOWEVER, having said all that, I would not recommend you to embark on koan 
study on your own.  --
[siska] from the short time I have been in this forum, I learned that koan 
study requires a teacher. I thought it was simply because it is impossible to 
do it on our own since we'd need someone to give us the appropriate koans and 
verify our answers. Now I think I need to ask instead of making my own 
assumptions, why is it actually not recommended to do koan study without a 
teacher?

--
If you have to practice zen entirely on your own I would recommend you just do 
zazen - shikantaza (clear mind meditation).  
--
[siska] also from the short while I'm here, I concluded that zen's zazen is 
quite similar to meditation practice that I've been doing for quite a while, 
which is simply sit and be aware. But if you can post me some instructions, I'd 
like to try and see if it suits me.

--
I am not a teacher. 
--
[siska] everyone is a teacher, in one way or another.  And you have been a 
great teacher to me.

Siska

-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 03:07:39 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

Siska,

The short answer to your questions is: yes, of course you can utilize
koans on your own.  Buddha Guatama did by sitting under the bodhi tree. 
There are many versions of this story/myth, but one I found online at
http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/pbs2_unit03.htm
<http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/pbs2_unit03.htm>  is:

"Still seeking a way to understand the meaning of life, Siddhartha set
out for Buddhagaya. Near a grove, he sat down under a huge Bodhi tree.
Silently he vowed, "Even if my flesh and blood were to dry up, leaving
only skin and bones, I will not leave this place until I find a way to
end all sorrow." He sat there for forty nine days. He was determined to
discover the source of all pain and suffering in the world."

Buddha's koan might be stated as 'What is the meaning of life?', or
'What is the source of all pain and sufferring?', or 'How can we bring
an end to all sorrow?';  and very importantly he worked on this with the
utmost determination, vowing not to quit until he either found the
answer or died.

This is what koan practice is.

Buddha had no special (supernatural) powers.  If he could do it, so
could you.

HOWEVER, having said all that, I would not recommend you to embark on
koan study on your own.  If you have to practice zen entirely on your
own I would recommend you just do zazen - shikantaza (clear mind
meditation).  If you'd like instructions on that I'll post them or post
links to them.

I am not a teacher.  JMJM is a Chan Teacher and I hope he responds as to
if/how someone could begin zen/Chan practice on their own.  I'd also be
interested in his comments.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> That whole process of first experiencing Buddha Nature (kensho) and
then integrating it into your life without being fooled (as I've
described above) is the purpose of Zen Buddhist koan study.
> [siska] I'd love to do koan study. It is not possible to do this
without a teacher, is it?
>
> Thanks for your response Bill, it was such a relief that you get what
I was trying to say. It is always difficult for me to put it into words.
>
> Ps: the red corvette sounds like a fun ride :-)
>
> siska
> -Original Message-
> From: "Bill!" BillSmart@...
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 07 Apr 2011 02:10:39
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
>
> Siska, My comments are embedded below:
>
> > [Bill!] I don't really understand this statement well enough to
respond. Why do you qualify decisions with 'big',
> > [siska] what I meant by 'big decision' is decision that have
'longer' (?) impact. Say, deciding to marry someone, or deciding to
leave everything behind and go forth. I suppose we can do this by
intuition, and perhaps we should. But sometimes I find that intuition is
not intuition, there is still very subtle framework behind what comes up
as intuition.
> [Bill! 2] I know what you mean and I of course do that also. BUT,
sometimes I think I might FIRST make the decision basen on impulse or
'intuition' (or homones) and then LATER JUSTIFY it with logic. This
process can happen very, very quickly. Like deciding to buy a red
Corvette convertible because it will retain it's value. Ha!
>
> >
> > [Bill!] and why should they be handled differently than any other
decision?

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-09 Thread siska_cen

Or simply change it to 'Moon-gazers' Forum ;-)
Hmmpphh sounds like a lot more fun..

-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 14:40:09 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse



Yes. Let' shut down the Zen Forum and become moon-gazers or
omphaloskepsis practitioners.

--ED

PS: Shizantaza involves a de-emphasized, low-level awareness of whatever
arises that's one's mind is skilfull enough to apprehend.



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Mayka,
>
> Sounds good to me :-)
>
> Siska



> I can't help but be reminded here of what someone taught me about the
moon...to look at the moon in silence, for words or a pointing finger
are not needed..
>
> Buddha be praised
> Mel
> gunnar19632000@...
>
> ..'In calmness there should be activity; in activity there should be
calmness'...
> -anonymous



> Siska:
>
> If the difference between given a label to something or acknowledging
something are not clear to you.  Skip them both.  And just be aware of
whatever is going on in your body and surroundings.  No need to
understand any word concepts as the most important is the awareness with
everything that is arising. If you can have that already then you don't
need more additions to it.
>
> Mayka

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-09 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill, Mayka,

True, that's the way I got it.

But even if it is not chanted like mantra, there is this difference between 
pure awareness of anything that is and awareness that knows (for lack of better 
term) what is. This awareness that knows that I'm drinking tea (with or without 
labelling or further thinking about the tea) is the same awareness that gives 
rise to what I call "sense-of-I". It separates the awareness itself from what 
is being observed, ie. I'm drinking tea. I also found some people call this 
awareness 'mindfulness', which I don't think is 'real' (again, for lack of 
better term) mindfulness.

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:54:35 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

Mayka,

For me the misleading phrase was 'mentally name'.  That sounds like you're 
going to just think 'drinking tea now, drinking tea now, ...' over and over in 
your head like a mantra.  I didn't think that's what you meant...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
> Bill;
> You're interpretation is correct.Â Â Appreciate a lot your imput and help 
> with the EnglishÂ language. Which words was I using leading to believe that I 
> was thinking of drinking tea?
> Â 
> Do I really express myself in such a broken English that only you is able to 
> understand?.Â  Wow, and thought that it was so clear!!!
> Â 
> Mayka
> Â 
> Â 
> Â  --- On Sat, 9/4/11, Bill!  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, 9 April, 2011, 3:49
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to jump in here because I see this from both perspectives - I think 
> - and I think it is another matter of miscommunication.
> 
> If you're drinking tea and thinking of something else (like as 'as soon as 
> I'm done with my tea I'll go out and mow the lawn') then I'm sure you'd both 
> agree that is not 'mindfulness'.
> 
> ED is saying if you're drinking tea and THINKING about drinking tea (like 
> 'gee this tea is really good!') then that also is not mindfulness. I agree.
> 
> Mayka is saying when you drink tea you should only be drinking tea - nothing 
> else. She uses words that sound like she's thinking about drinking tea, but I 
> don't beleive that's what she means. She means Just THIS! When you're 
> drinking tea, Just THIS! is drinking tea. When you mowing you lawn, Just 
> THIS! is mowing your lawn. This is what I beleive Mayka means. If so, I agree.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
> >
> > ED;
> > Ã‚Â 
> > Do you think so?.Ã‚Â  I used this method for various years and seemed to 
> > work particularly during retreats.Ã‚Â  Away from retreats and after a 
> > whileÃ‚Â I have to admit as far as my personal experience concerns no 
> > methods have worked out for me so far as emotions concerns.Ã‚Â Ã‚Â When I 
> > feel bad not only I feel bad but also have the necessity to share with 
> > other fellows human beings that I'm feeling bad.Ã‚Â  I don't manage to get 
> > adjusted to this buddhisht-zen holinessÃ‚Â where everybody seem toÃ‚Â have 
> > all emotions under control. Ã‚Â 
> > Ã‚Â 
> > We are what we are and thinking to change oneselves is the biggest illusion 
> > I've ever heard from all.Ã‚Â In fact, Can a rose changeÃ‚Â it's nature of 
> > being a rose and became a carnation?.Ã‚Â Ã‚Â 
> > Ã‚Â 
> > Ã‚Â Eventually we always come back to where we were.Ã‚Â  Nothing 
> > change.Ã‚Â  There is no walk though it looks like as if it were.Ã‚Â  I 
> > haven't learnt anything.Ã‚Â  I know nothing.Ã‚Â  
> > Ã‚Â 
> > Mayka
> > Ã‚Â 
> > Ã‚Â 
> > --- On Thu, 7/4/11, ED  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > From: ED 
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Thursday, 7 April, 2011, 16:05
> > 
> > 
> > Ã‚Â  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Ã‚Â 
> > Mayka, if you are mentally naming it, you are using your rational mind.Ã‚Â  
> > -ED
> > Ã‚Â 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
> > >
> > Hi Siska:
> > Ã‚Â 
> > By the term "acknowledging" means to be aware of what is happening 
> > there.Ã‚Â For instance: If you have a headache you mentally name: 
> > "headache".Ã‚Â  By the only acknowledgement of the headache many other 
> > sensations, impact of the headache in your whole bodyÃ‚Â and body 
> > languageÃ‚Â will come into awareness through it.Ã‚Â  
> > Ã‚Â 
> > A much short example:
> > Ã‚Â 
> > 1- I'm drinking tea (I'm drinking tea in an automatic way.Ã‚Â  There has 
> > not been an acknowledgement in the action.Ã‚Â  The head is 
> > distractedÃ‚Â somewhere else away from the tea I'm drinking).
> > Ã‚Â 
> > 2- I know I'm drinking tea.Ã‚Â  ( I have acknowledged drinking tea.Ã‚Â  I 
> > know what I'm doing.Ã‚Â My head is not distracted from the action of 
> > drinking tea)
> > Ã‚Â 
> > Important not to exchange labellin

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-09 Thread siska_cen

I just wanted to make sure you didn't think there was anything secretive or 
magical about them.
[siska] never think of koan as secretive or magical. Now that you mentioned it, 
I find it interesting that some people must have thought so.

[Bill! 2] Let me put it a different way: you are not my student
[siska] I'm a student of anyone from whom I learn anything. But you may be 
talking about teacher-student relationship in a zen perspective, which I have 
not understood so far. I learned that there are lineage and some sort of 
establishment in zen when it comes to this, which I still cannot relate to. My 
current view is not to allow any authority, even in the form of zen teacher, to 
shape our beliefs, or perceptions, or points of view. Afterall, we've had 
enough of these to 'unload'. Learning can only come when we are free from all 
these and knowledge is not the result of this learning.

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 16:19:14 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> 
> --
> [Bill!] HOWEVER, having said all that, I would not recommend you to embark on 
> koan study on your own.Â  --
> [siska] from the short time I have been in this forum, I learned that koan 
> study requires a teacher. I thought it was simply because it is impossible to 
> do it on our own since we'd need someone to give us the appropriate koans and 
> verify our answers. Now I think I need to ask instead of making my own 
> assumptions, why is it actually not recommended to do koan study without a 
> teacher?
[Bill!-2]  My statements prior to the one you reference above were only saying 
you COULD do them on your own.  I just wanted to make sure you didn't think 
there was anything secretive or magical about them.  The statement above is 
telling you I don't think you SHOULD try them on your own.  The reasons for 
that are the same you've listed.
> --
> [Bill!]  If you have to practice zen entirely on your own I would recommend 
> you just do zazen - shikantaza (clear mind meditation).Â  
> --
> [siska] also from the short while I'm here, I concluded that zen's zazen is 
> quite similar to meditation practice that I've been doing for quite a while, 
> which is simply sit and be aware. But if you can post me some instructions, 
> I'd like to try and see if it suits me.
[Bill! 2] Shikantaza (zazen) is exactly what you describe - simply sit and be 
aware.  If you can do that already you don't need koan study.  The purpose of 
koan study is to get you to shikantaza.

> --
> [Bill!] I am not a teacher.Â 
> --
> [siska] everyone is a teacher, in one way or another.  And you have been a 
> great teacher to me.
[Bill! 2] Let me put it a different way: you are not my student.
>
...Bill! 
> -Original Message-
> From: "Bill!" 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 03:07:39 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
> 
> 
> Siska,
> 
> The short answer to your questions is: yes, of course you can utilize
> koans on your own.  Buddha Guatama did by sitting under the bodhi tree. 
> There are many versions of this story/myth, but one I found online at
> http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/pbs2_unit03.htm
> <http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/pbs2_unit03.htm>  is:
> 
> "Still seeking a way to understand the meaning of life, Siddhartha set
> out for Buddhagaya. Near a grove, he sat down under a huge Bodhi tree.
> Silently he vowed, "Even if my flesh and blood were to dry up, leaving
> only skin and bones, I will not leave this place until I find a way to
> end all sorrow." He sat there for forty nine days. He was determined to
> discover the source of all pain and suffering in the world."
> 
> Buddha's koan might be stated as 'What is the meaning of life?', or
> 'What is the source of all pain and sufferring?', or 'How can we bring
> an end to all sorrow?';  and very importantly he worked on this with the
> utmost determination, vowing not to quit until he either found the
> answer or died.
> 
> This is what koan practice is.
> 
> Buddha had no special (supernatural) powers.  If he could do it, so
> could you.
> 
> HOWEVER, having said all that, I would not recommend you to embark on
> koan study on your own.  If you have to practice zen entirely on your
> own I would recommend you just do zazen - shikantaza (clear mind
> meditation).

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-09 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

So that is what you meant. Understand and agree.

I'm also keeping myself open to the possibilities that whatever zen I learn 
from this forum, may not be regarded as such by others ;-)

Have a good sunday,

siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 00:39:55 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

Siska,

What I mean by all this teacher/student talk is:

Although I can learn from you and you can learn from me, the responsibility for 
your zen practice is entirely yours.

It's the zen equivilent of 'caveat emptor'...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> I just wanted to make sure you didn't think there was anything secretive or 
> magical about them.
> [siska] never think of koan as secretive or magical. Now that you mentioned 
> it, I find it interesting that some people must have thought so.
> 
> [Bill! 2] Let me put it a different way: you are not my student
> [siska] I'm a student of anyone from whom I learn anything. But you may be 
> talking about teacher-student relationship in a zen perspective, which I have 
> not understood so far. I learned that there are lineage and some sort of 
> establishment in zen when it comes to this, which I still cannot relate to. 
> My current view is not to allow any authority, even in the form of zen 
> teacher, to shape our beliefs, or perceptions, or points of view. Afterall, 
> we've had enough of these to 'unload'. Learning can only come when we are 
> free from all these and knowledge is not the result of this learning.
> 
> Siska
> -Original Message-
> From: "Bill!" 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 16:19:14 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> >
> > Hi Bill,
> > 
> > --
> > [Bill!] HOWEVER, having said all that, I would not recommend you to embark 
> > on koan study on your own.Ã‚Â  --
> > [siska] from the short time I have been in this forum, I learned that koan 
> > study requires a teacher. I thought it was simply because it is impossible 
> > to do it on our own since we'd need someone to give us the appropriate 
> > koans and verify our answers. Now I think I need to ask instead of making 
> > my own assumptions, why is it actually not recommended to do koan study 
> > without a teacher?
> [Bill!-2]  My statements prior to the one you reference above were only 
> saying you COULD do them on your own.  I just wanted to make sure you didn't 
> think there was anything secretive or magical about them.  The statement 
> above is telling you I don't think you SHOULD try them on your own.  The 
> reasons for that are the same you've listed.
> > --
> > [Bill!]  If you have to practice zen entirely on your own I would recommend 
> > you just do zazen - shikantaza (clear mind meditation).Ã‚Â  
> > --
> > [siska] also from the short while I'm here, I concluded that zen's zazen is 
> > quite similar to meditation practice that I've been doing for quite a 
> > while, which is simply sit and be aware. But if you can post me some 
> > instructions, I'd like to try and see if it suits me.
> [Bill! 2] Shikantaza (zazen) is exactly what you describe - simply sit and be 
> aware.  If you can do that already you don't need koan study.  The purpose of 
> koan study is to get you to shikantaza.
> 
> > --
> > [Bill!] I am not a teacher.Ã‚Â 
> > --
> > [siska] everyone is a teacher, in one way or another.  And you have been a 
> > great teacher to me.
> [Bill! 2] Let me put it a different way: you are not my student.
> >
> ...Bill! 
> > -Original Message-
> > From: "Bill!" 
> > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 03:07:39 
> > To: 
> > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
> > 
> > 
> > Siska,
> > 
> > The short answer to your questions is: yes, of course you can utilize
> > koans on your own.  Buddha Guatama did by sitting under the bodhi tree. 
> > There are many versions of this story/myth, but one I found online at
> > http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/pbs2_unit03.htm
> > <http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhism/pbs2_unit03.htm>  is:
> > 
> > "Still seeking a way to understand the me

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-09 Thread siska_cen

Hi Mayka,

--
what he meant by: " I know I'm drinking tea".  He meant that he was entirely 
with the tea. 
--
 As well as he 'was' the tea.

Wish you days full of mindfulness

:-)
siska
-Original Message-
From: Maria Lopez 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 17:32:36 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

Siska:
 
I may fail over the same as TNH and that is that for both us English is not our 
first language.  This makes perfect for me as I coud have at once with no 
mental entanglemente what he meant by: " I know I'm drinking tea".  He meant 
that he was entirely with the tea.  He acknowledged he was drinking tea.  
Exactly as Bill interpretation was in his response.  However, Bill plays with 
a  little advantage here because he's a many years experienced practicioner and 
didn't allow the words shade the meaning.  
 
Practicing mindfulness is something very real I can asure you.  I actually envy 
the people who can have such a discipline of living in the present moment.  
Present moment is the core in all zen traditions.  Mindfulness and awareness 
are very much alike.  If you are aware of something you are already mindful.  
If you are mindful you are already aware.  There is no separation between these 
two words.  
 
Mayka
 

--- On Sat, 9/4/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 9 April, 2011, 16:25


  



Hi Bill, Mayka,

True, that's the way I got it.

But even if it is not chanted like mantra, there is this difference between 
pure awareness of anything that is and awareness that knows (for lack of better 
term) what is. This awareness that knows that I'm drinking tea (with or without 
labelling or further thinking about the tea) is the same awareness that gives 
rise to what I call "sense-of-I". It separates the awareness itself from what 
is being observed, ie. I'm drinking tea. I also found some people call this 
awareness 'mindfulness', which I don't think is 'real' (again, for lack of 
better term) mindfulness.

Siska


From: "Bill!"  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:54:35 -
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

  

Mayka,

For me the misleading phrase was 'mentally name'. That sounds like you're going 
to just think 'drinking tea now, drinking tea now, ...' over and over in your 
head like a mantra. I didn't think that's what you meant...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
> Bill;
> You're interpretation is correct.Â Â Appreciate a lot your imput and help 
> with the EnglishÂ language. Which words was I using leading to believe that I 
> was thinking of drinking tea?
> Â 
> Do I really express myself in such a broken English that only you is able to 
> understand?.Â  Wow, and thought that it was so clear!!!
> Â 
> Mayka
> Â 
> Â 
> Â  --- On Sat, 9/4/11, Bill!  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, 9 April, 2011, 3:49
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to jump in here because I see this from both perspectives - I think 
> - and I think it is another matter of miscommunication.
> 
> If you're drinking tea and thinking of something else (like as 'as soon as 
> I'm done with my tea I'll go out and mow the lawn') then I'm sure you'd both 
> agree that is not 'mindfulness'.
> 
> ED is saying if you're drinking tea and THINKING about drinking tea (like 
> 'gee this tea is really good!') then that also is not mindfulness. I agree.
> 
> Mayka is saying when you drink tea you should only be drinking tea - nothing 
> else. She uses words that sound like she's thinking about drinking tea, but I 
> don't beleive that's what she means. She means Just THIS! When you're 
> drinking tea, Just THIS! is drinking tea. When you mowing you lawn, Just 
> THIS! is mowing your lawn. This is what I beleive Mayka means. If so, I agree.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
> >
> > ED;
> > Ã‚Â 
> > Do you think so?.Ã‚Â  I used this method for various years and seemed to 
> > work particularly during retreats.Ã‚Â  Away from retreats and after a 
> > whileÃ‚Â I have to admit as far as my personal experience concerns no 
> > methods have worked out for me so far as emotions concerns.Ã‚Â Ã‚Â When I 
> > feel bad not only I feel bad but also have the necessity to share with 
> > other fellows human beings that I'm feeling bad.Ã‚Â  I don't manage to get 
> > adjusted to this buddhisht-zen holinessÃ‚Â where everybody seem toÃ‚Â have 
> > all emotions under control. Ã‚Â 
> > Ã‚Â 
> > We are what we are and thinking to change oneselves is the biggest illusion 
> > I've ever heard from all.Ã‚Â In fact, Can a rose changeÃ‚Â it's natu

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-10 Thread siska_cen

Mayka,

As there is no one drinking tea, then there is only drinking, and maybe the tea.
No one is experiencing anything.

Good Sunday!
And its already night here :-)

Siska
-Original Message-
From: Maria Lopez 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 12:44:24 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

However; "as he was the tea" .  Not as he was the tea.   Drinking tea,  one 
is only is drinking tea. No distractions of thoughts or mental projections 
taking one away from the activity experience of drinking the tea.  
Mayka

--- On Sun, 10/4/11, Maria Lopez  wrote:

From: Maria Lopez 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 12:26

Yeah Siska! That's it! .

Sunny and really pleasant warm Sunday here.
It feels good!
Sending its refreshing energy to you and all
Mayka

--- On Sun, 10/4/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 2:09

Hi Mayka,

--
what he meant by: " I know I'm drinking tea".  He meant that he was entirely 
with the tea. 
--
 As well as he 'was' the tea.

Wish you days full of mindfulness

:-)
siska 

From: Maria Lopez  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 17:32:36 +0100 (BST)
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

Siska:

I may fail over the same as TNH and that is that for both us English is not our 
first language.  This makes perfect for me as I coud have at once with no 
mental entanglemente what he meant by: " I know I'm drinking tea".  He meant 
that he was entirely with the tea.  He acknowledged he was drinking tea.  
Exactly as Bill interpretation was in his response.  However, Bill plays with 
a  little advantage here because he's a many years experienced practicioner and 
didn't allow the words shade the meaning.  

Practicing mindfulness is something very real I can asure you.  I actually envy 
the people who can have such a discipline of living in the present moment.  
Present moment is the core in all zen traditions.  Mindfulness and awareness 
are very much alike.  If you are aware of something you are already mindful.  
If you are mindful you are already aware.  There is no separation between these 
two words.  

Mayka

--- On Sat, 9/4/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, 9 April, 2011, 16:25

Hi Bill, Mayka,

True, that's the way I got it.

But even if it is not chanted like mantra, there is this difference between 
pure awareness of anything that is and awareness that knows (for lack of better 
term) what is. This awareness that knows that I'm drinking tea (with or without 
labelling or further thinking about the tea) is the same awareness that gives 
rise to what I call "sense-of-I". It separates the awareness itself from what 
is being observed, ie. I'm drinking tea. I also found some people call this 
awareness 'mindfulness', which I don't think is 'real' (again, for lack of 
better term) mindfulness.

Siska 

From: "Bill!"  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Sat, 09 Apr 2011 12:54:35 -
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

Mayka,

For me the misleading phrase was 'mentally name'. That sounds like you're going 
to just think 'drinking tea now, drinking tea now, ...' over and over in your 
head like a mantra. I didn't think that's what you meant...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
> Bill;
> You're interpretation is correct.Â Â Appreciate a lot your imput and help 
> with the EnglishÂ language. Which words was I using leading to believe that I 
> was thinking of drinking tea?
> Â 
> Do I really express myself in such a broken English that only you is able to 
> understand?.Â  Wow, and thought that it was so clear!!!
> Â 
> Mayka
> Â 
> Â 
> Â  --- On Sat, 9/4/11, Bill!  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, 9 April, 2011, 3:49
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> I'm going to jump in here because I see this from both perspectives - I think 
> - and I think it is another matter of miscommunication.
> 
> If you're drinking tea and thinking of something else (like as 'as soon as 
> I'm done with my tea I'll go out and mow the lawn') then I'm sure you'd both 
> agree that is not 'mindfulness'.
> 
> ED is saying if you're drinking tea and THINKING about drinking tea (like 
> 'gee this tea is really good!') then that also is not mindfulness. I agree.
> 
> Mayka is saying when you drink tea you should only be drink

Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

2011-04-10 Thread siska_cen

Yes please.

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 01:32:33 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse

More tea?

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Maria Lopez  wrote:
>
> Siska:
> Â 
> I let this one to Bill.Â  I wouldn't know what to say.Â  It sounds a little 
> bit complicated for me to say anything.
> Â 
> Off from computer now.
> Good night sleep well. Here lunch time.
> Mayka
> 
> --- On Sun, 10/4/11, siska_cen@...  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: siska_cen@... 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 13:06
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> Mayka,
> 
> As there is no one drinking tea, then there is only drinking, and maybe the 
> tea.
> No one is experiencing anything.
> 
> Good Sunday!
> And its already night here :-)
> 
> Siska
> 
> 
> From: Maria Lopez  
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 12:44:24 +0100 (BST)
> To: 
> ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> However; "as he was the tea" .Â  Not as he was the tea.Â Â  Drinking tea, 
> Â one is only is drinking tea. No distractions of thoughts or mental 
> projections taking oneÂ away from the activity experienceÂ of drinking the 
> tea.Â  
> Mayka
> 
> --- On Sun, 10/4/11, Maria Lopez  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Maria Lopez 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 12:26
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah Siska! That's it!Â .
> Â 
> Sunny and really pleasant warm Sunday here.
> It feels good!
> SendingÂ its refreshing energy to you and all
> Mayka
> Â 
> 
> 
> --- On Sun, 10/4/11, siska_cen@...  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: siska_cen@... 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 2:09
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> Hi Mayka,
> 
> --
> what he meant by: " I know I'm drinking tea".Â  He meant that he was entirely 
> with the tea.Â 
> --
>  As well as he 'was' the tea.
> 
> Wish you days full of mindfulness
> 
> :-)
> siska 
> 
> 
> From: Maria Lopez  
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Date: Sat, 9 Apr 2011 17:32:36 +0100 (BST)
> To: 
> ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Siska:
> Â 
> I may fail over the same as TNH and that is that for both us English is not 
> our first language.Â  This makes perfect for me as I coud have at once with 
> no mental entanglemente what he meant by: " I know I'm drinking tea".Â  He 
> meant that he was entirely with the tea.Â  He acknowledged he was drinking 
> tea.Â  Exactly as Bill interpretation was in his response.Â  However,Â Bill 
> plays with aÂ  little advantage here because he'sÂ aÂ many yearsÂ experienced 
> practicioner and didn't allow the wordsÂ shade the meaning.Â  
> Â 
> Practicing mindfulness is something very real I can asure you.Â Â IÂ actually 
> envy the people whoÂ can have such a discipline ofÂ living in the present 
> moment.Â  Present moment is the core in all zen traditions.Â  Mindfulness and 
> awareness are very much alike.Â  If you are aware of something you are 
> already mindful.Â  If you are mindful you are already aware.Â  There is no 
> separation between these two words.Â  
> Â 
> Mayka
> Â 
> 
> --- On Sat, 9/4/11, siska_cen@...  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: siska_cen@... 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Why bother with Zazen? Better Orgyhouse
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, 9 April, 2011, 16:25
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> Hi Bill, Mayka,
> 
> True, that's the way I got it.
> 
> But even if it is not chanted like mantra, there is this difference between 
> pure awareness of anything that is and awareness that knows (for lack of 
> better term) what is. This awareness that knows that I'm drinking tea (with 
> or without labelling or further thinking about the tea) is the same awareness 
> that gives rise to what I call "sense-of-I". It separates the awareness 
> itself from what is being observed, ie. I'm drinking tea. I also found some 
> people call this awareness 'mindfulness', which I don't think is 'real' 
> (agai

Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices

2011-04-11 Thread siska_cen

Hi Anthony, Bill,

If I may step in,

I understand Anthony's point because I happen to understand the chinese 
characters of shikantaza, which if I'm not mistaken, spelled zhi guan da zuo, 
which literally means only sitting, as meditation kind of sitting. But when 
sitting as referred to in this term, a lot of things can happen in the mind.

The way I understand it, Bill might refer to literally only 'sitting' and 
nothing else, which can only happen when the mind is clear. Perhaps in chinese, 
it will have to reduce to literally 'only (zhi) and sit (zuo). But I suppose 
the japanese term would no longer be shikantaza.

In this case, I do think the term shikantaza as rather limiting. How do you 
call a state of clear mind just as in zazen, when it happens while you are not 
in sitting position? :-)

Siska 

-Original Message-
From: Anthony Wu 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 10:54:39 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices

Bill,

You say, 'I was taught that 'shikantaza' means 'just sit' - nothing else.' 

It is 100% correct. If you 'just sit', you can do day dreaming, or think about 
your girl friend.  There is no definite connection between shikantaza and clear 
mind.

Google quotes some Japanese sources that have shikantaza imply clear mind. I 
thought about that, and concluded that the word is foreign to Japanese, so they 
unwittingly added additional meanings to it. However, the original Chinese word 
means only 'just sit' and nothing else. It is colloquial. When you ask a 10 
year old Chinese boy to do shikantaza, he will immediately sit cross-legged in 
front of you. You cannot see his mind anyway.

The better way is to say 'shikantaza with clear mind'.

Anthony

--- On Sun, 10/4/11, Bill!  wrote:

From: Bill! 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 8:31 AM

Anthony,

I was taught that 'shikantaza' means 'just sit' - nothing else. How could there 
be some kind of shikantaza that WASN'T 'clear mind'? If your mind was not 
clear, if you were thinking about something, it wouldn't be shikantaza.

That is the way I use this word 'shikantaza' anyway. If you could suggest a 
better word please do...

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Bill,
> Â 
> Correction:
> Â 
> Anything else like counting or following the breath or koans are only 
> teaching techniques to get you to shikantaza with clear mind.
> Â 
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Sun, 10/4/11, Bill!  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 12:05 AM
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> ED,
> 
> In my opinion shikantaza is zazen. Anything else like counting or following 
> the breath or koans are only teaching techniques to get you to shikantaza.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > Bill,
> > 
> > The list, author unknown is to be found in the source below.
> > 
> > Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_meditation
> > 
> > 
> > Shikantaza is an awareness practice, whereas zazen involves both
> > concentration meditation (breath-counting for instance) and shikantaza,
> > in varying extents.
> > 
> > --ED
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> > >
> > > ED,
> > >
> > > Under the ZEN BUDDHIST MEDITATION PRACTICES what do you think whomever
> > made up this list (you?) thinks is the difference between 'zazen' and
> > 'shikantaza'?
> > >
> > > Thanks...Bill!
> > 
> > 
> > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED" seacrofter001@ wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_meditation
> > 
> >
>

Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices

2011-04-11 Thread siska_cen

Hi Anthony,

I haven't been exposed to a lot of zen 'stuffs', but from what I gathered so 
far, it seems that shikantaza does carry a value more than its literal meaning. 
But then again many people don't understand its literal meaning in its original 
language. Maybe, many people assume these words to mean 'sit', while 'da zuo' 
is means sitting meditation instead of sitting. To those who learn shikantaza 
(as word) as 'clear mind sitting', then that is what shikantaza means. That is 
what I thought until I saw the chinese characters. There probably is no right 
term for sitting with clear mind anyway.

Now if I go further, this will end up to something like 'words always fail in 
describing something like this', but Ed has asked me to be moon-gazer 
practitioner once, I might really have to accept the invitation if I go on 
(which might be a good idea afterall).

Have a good evening,

Siska

-Original Message-
From: Anthony Wu 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 21:02:36 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices

Siska,

I am glad you understand Chinese. What I have been trying to do is to avoid 
being a laughing stock when they insist the word 'just sit' can carry an 
additional sense of 'clear mind'. It is more so when you show the Chinese 
characters to those who know them(as real Chinese, not adapted by Japanese), 
However, my efforts are misunderstood as being malignant. So I had better stop.

In reality, I am in full agreement with 'sitting directed to no object, and 
attached to no content.'

Anthony
--- On Mon, 11/4/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Monday, 11 April, 2011, 7:47 PM

Hi Anthony, Bill,

If I may step in,

I understand Anthony's point because I happen to understand the chinese 
characters of shikantaza, which if I'm not mistaken, spelled zhi guan da zuo, 
which literally means only sitting, as meditation kind of sitting. But when 
sitting as referred to in this term, a lot of things can happen in the mind.

The way I understand it, Bill might refer to literally only 'sitting' and 
nothing else, which can only happen when the mind is clear. Perhaps in chinese, 
it will have to reduce to literally 'only (zhi) and sit (zuo). But I suppose 
the japanese term would no longer be shikantaza.

In this case, I do think the term shikantaza as rather limiting. How do you 
call a state of clear mind just as in zazen, when it happens while you are not 
in sitting position? :-)

Siska 

From: Anthony Wu  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 10:54:39 +0800 (SGT)
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices

Bill,

You say, 'I was taught that 'shikantaza' means 'just sit' - nothing else.' 

It is 100% correct. If you 'just sit', you can do day dreaming, or think about 
your girl friend.  There is no definite connection between shikantaza and clear 
mind.

Google quotes some Japanese sources that have shikantaza imply clear mind. I 
thought about that, and concluded that the word is foreign to Japanese, so they 
unwittingly added additional meanings to it. However, the original Chinese word 
means only 'just sit' and nothing else. It is colloquial. When you ask a 10 
year old Chinese boy to do shikantaza, he will immediately sit cross-legged in 
front of you. You cannot see his mind anyway.

The better way is to say 'shikantaza with clear mind'.

Anthony

--- On Sun, 10/4/11, Bill!  wrote:

From: Bill! 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 8:31 AM

Anthony,

I was taught that 'shikantaza' means 'just sit' - nothing else. How could there 
be some kind of shikantaza that WASN'T 'clear mind'? If your mind was not 
clear, if you were thinking about something, it wouldn't be shikantaza.

That is the way I use this word 'shikantaza' anyway. If you could suggest a 
better word please do...

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
>
> Bill,
> Â 
> Correction:
> Â 
> Anything else like counting or following the breath or koans are only 
> teaching techniques to get you to shikantaza with clear mind.
> Â 
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Sun, 10/4/11, Bill!  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 12:05 AM
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> ED,
> 
> In my opinion shikantaza is zazen. Anything else like counting or following 
> the breath or koans are only teaching techniques to get you to shikantaza.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > Bill,
> > 
> > The list, author unknown is to be found in the source below.
> > 
> > Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_meditation
> >

Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices

2011-04-11 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

I don't know japanese, so I can only explain from chinese character perspective.

The term Shikantaza in chinese consists of four characters 'zhi', 'guan', 'da', 
'zuo'. Only the word 'zuo' means sit. 'da' 'zuo' put together means sitting 
meditation. Now when I person does the so-called sitting meditation, the mind 
can be clear, or not clear.

I guess that is what Anthony has been trying to say.

What you refer to with the term shikantaza is only sit, which is only possible 
with clear mind. That's why I thought it should perhaps be reduced to 'zhi' 
'zuo' (zhi=only, zuo=sit). In japanese perhaps it becomes shiza??



Siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 01:05:30 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices

To Anthony and Siska,

What you seem to be saying is NOT that the Chinese/Japanese character for 'sit' 
is misinterpreted to mean 'clear mind'; what you are seeming to imply is that 
the Chinese/Japanese character for 'sit' means more than to 'just sit'.  It 
means sitting AND thinking, daydreaming, etc...

What is the Chinese/Japanese word(s)/character(s) for 'meditation'?

...Bill!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Anthony,
> 
> I haven't been exposed to a lot of zen 'stuffs', but from what I gathered so 
> far, it seems that shikantaza does carry a value more than its literal 
> meaning. But then again many people don't understand its literal meaning in 
> its original language. Maybe, many people assume these words to mean 'sit', 
> while 'da zuo' is means sitting meditation instead of sitting. To those who 
> learn shikantaza (as word) as 'clear mind sitting', then that is what 
> shikantaza means. That is what I thought until I saw the chinese characters. 
> There probably is no right term for sitting with clear mind anyway.
> 
> Now if I go further, this will end up to something like 'words always fail in 
> describing something like this', but Ed has asked me to be moon-gazer 
> practitioner once, I might really have to accept the invitation if I go on 
> (which might be a good idea afterall).
> 
> Have a good evening,
> 
> Siska
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Anthony Wu 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 21:02:36 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
> 
> Siska,
> Â 
> I am glad you understand Chinese. What I have been trying to do is to avoid 
> being a laughing stock when they insist the word 'just sit' can carry an 
> additional sense of 'clear mind'. It is more so when you show the Chinese 
> characters to those who know them(as real Chinese, not adapted by Japanese), 
> However, my efforts are misunderstood as being malignant. So I had better 
> stop.
> 
> In reality, I am in full agreement with 'sitting directed to no object, and 
> attached to no content.'
> Â 
> Anthony
> --- On Mon, 11/4/11, siska_cen@...  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: siska_cen@... 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, 11 April, 2011, 7:47 PM
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Anthony, Bill,
> 
> If I may step in,
> 
> I understand Anthony's point because I happen to understand the chinese 
> characters of shikantaza, which if I'm not mistaken, spelled zhi guan da zuo, 
> which literally means only sitting, as meditation kind of sitting. But when 
> sitting as referred to in this term, a lot of things can happen in the mind.
> 
> The way I understand it, Bill might refer to literally only 'sitting' and 
> nothing else, which can only happen when the mind is clear. Perhaps in 
> chinese, it will have to reduce to literally 'only (zhi) and sit (zuo). But I 
> suppose the japanese term would no longer be shikantaza.
> 
> In this case, I do think the term shikantaza as rather limiting. How do you 
> call a state of clear mind just as in zazen, when it happens while you are 
> not in sitting position? :-)
> 
> Siska 
> 
> 
> 
> From: Anthony Wu  
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 10:54:39 +0800 (SGT)
> To: 
> ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Bill,
> Â 
> You say, 'I was taught that 'shikantaza' means 'just sit' - nothing else.&#x

Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices

2011-04-11 Thread siska_cen

What a good laugh :-)

I'm gonna leave you two alone from here and keep smiling.

Thanks for making my day,

Siska
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Wu 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 10:40:51 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices

Bill,
 
No way shikantaza mowing the lawn (unless you sit on a tractor). But you can 
add shikantaza riding a flying carpet.
 
Anthony

--- On Tue, 12/4/11, Bill!  wrote:


From: Bill! 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 12 April, 2011, 9:00 AM


  



Siska,

You make a good point about 'clear mind' when not sitting.

I've coined some new phrases to cover that, primarily to needle Anthony but 
they do speak to this point. The phrases are 'shikanta-drinking=tea, 
'shikantaz-mowing-the-lawn' and shikantza-taking-out-the-garbage'.

For all you hybrid Japanese Zen Buddhist/computer-geeks out there you could 
generalize the phrase as 'shikanta-&form'.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Anthony, Bill,
> 
> If I may step in,
> 
> I understand Anthony's point because I happen to understand the chinese 
> characters of shikantaza, which if I'm not mistaken, spelled zhi guan da zuo, 
> which literally means only sitting, as meditation kind of sitting. But when 
> sitting as referred to in this term, a lot of things can happen in the mind.
> 
> The way I understand it, Bill might refer to literally only 'sitting' and 
> nothing else, which can only happen when the mind is clear. Perhaps in 
> chinese, it will have to reduce to literally 'only (zhi) and sit (zuo). But I 
> suppose the japanese term would no longer be shikantaza.
> 
> In this case, I do think the term shikantaza as rather limiting. How do you 
> call a state of clear mind just as in zazen, when it happens while you are 
> not in sitting position? :-)
> 
> Siska 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Anthony Wu 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 10:54:39 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
> 
> Bill,
> Â 
> You say, 'I was taught that 'shikantaza' means 'just sit' - nothing else.' 
> Â 
> It is 100% correct. If you 'just sit', you can do day dreaming, or think 
> about your girl friend. Â There is no definite connection between shikantaza 
> and clear mind.
> Â 
> Google quotes some Japanese sources that have shikantaza imply clear mind. I 
> thought about that, and concluded that the word is foreign to Japanese, so 
> they unwittingly added additional meanings to it. However, the original 
> Chinese word means only 'just sit' and nothing else. It is colloquial. When 
> you ask a 10 year old Chinese boy to do shikantaza, he will immediately sit 
> cross-legged in front of you. You cannot see his mind anyway.
> Â 
> The better way is to say 'shikantaza with clear mind'.
> Â 
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Sun, 10/4/11, Bill!  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: Bill! 
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 8:31 AM
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> Anthony,
> 
> I was taught that 'shikantaza' means 'just sit' - nothing else. How could 
> there be some kind of shikantaza that WASN'T 'clear mind'? If your mind was 
> not clear, if you were thinking about something, it wouldn't be shikantaza.
> 
> That is the way I use this word 'shikantaza' anyway. If you could suggest a 
> better word please do...
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu  wrote:
> >
> > Bill,
> > Ã‚Â 
> > Correction:
> > Ã‚Â 
> > Anything else like counting or following the breath or koans are only 
> > teaching techniques to get you to shikantaza with clear mind.
> > Ã‚Â 
> > Anthony
> > 
> > --- On Sun, 10/4/11, Bill!  wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > From: Bill! 
> > Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
> > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 12:05 AM
> > 
> > 
> > Ã‚Â  
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > ED,
> > 
> > In my opinion shikantaza is zazen. Anything else like counting or following 
> > the breath or koans are only teaching techniques to get you to shikantaza.
> > 
> > ...Bill!
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> > >
> > > 
> > > 
> > > Bill,

Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices

2011-04-11 Thread siska_cen

Hi Anthony,

A chinese language question, Jing as in jing zuo means silence or quiet right?

Siska
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Wu 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 11:01:02 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices

Siska/Bill,

Dazuo (taza) is 'sit like a monk does'. Normally it is sitting cross-legged. I 
don't think it implies meditation. That position may be taken when Dogen gives 
you a koan lesson.

The Chinese term for meditation is 'channa', 'jingzuo', or 'jinglv'. But none 
of them are exactly equivaltent to 'meditation'. For instance, 'jingzuo' 
contains the character 'zuo', which is 'sitting'. In China, sometimes the 
sitting meditation is called 'zuozhuang', while the standing one is 
'zhanzhuang'.

静坐    坐桩    站桩    

If you tell Dogen shikantaza means 'tada suwaru', he will amend his saying and 
give you 30 beatings in reward.

Anthony

--- On Tue, 12/4/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 12 April, 2011, 10:00 AM

Hi Bill,

I don't know japanese, so I can only explain from chinese character perspective.

The term Shikantaza in chinese consists of four characters 'zhi', 'guan', 'da', 
'zuo'. Only the word 'zuo' means sit. 'da' 'zuo' put together means sitting 
meditation. Now when I person does the so-called sitting meditation, the mind 
can be clear, or not clear.

I guess that is what Anthony has been trying to say.

What you refer to with the term shikantaza is only sit, which is only possible 
with clear mind. That's why I thought it should perhaps be reduced to 'zhi' 
'zuo' (zhi=only, zuo=sit). In japanese perhaps it becomes shiza??

Siska

From: "Bill!"  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 01:05:30 -
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices

To Anthony and Siska,

What you seem to be saying is NOT that the Chinese/Japanese character for 'sit' 
is misinterpreted to mean 'clear mind'; what you are seeming to imply is that 
the Chinese/Japanese character for 'sit' means more than to 'just sit'. It 
means sitting AND thinking, daydreaming, etc...

What is the Chinese/Japanese word(s)/character(s) for 'meditation'?

...Bill!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Anthony,
> 
> I haven't been exposed to a lot of zen 'stuffs', but from what I gathered so 
> far, it seems that shikantaza does carry a value more than its literal 
> meaning. But then again many people don't understand its literal meaning in 
> its original language. Maybe, many people assume these words to mean 'sit', 
> while 'da zuo' is means sitting meditation instead of sitting. To those who 
> learn shikantaza (as word) as 'clear mind sitting', then that is what 
> shikantaza means. That is what I thought until I saw the chinese characters. 
> There probably is no right term for sitting with clear mind anyway.
> 
> Now if I go further, this will end up to something like 'words always fail in 
> describing something like this', but Ed has asked me to be moon-gazer 
> practitioner once, I might really have to accept the invitation if I go on 
> (which might be a good idea afterall).
> 
> Have a good evening,
> 
> Siska
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Anthony Wu 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 21:02:36 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
> 
> Siska,
> Â 
> I am glad you understand Chinese. What I have been trying to do is to avoid 
> being a laughing stock when they insist the word 'just sit' can carry an 
> additional sense of 'clear mind'. It is more so when you show the Chinese 
> characters to those who know them(as real Chinese, not adapted by Japanese), 
> However, my efforts are misunderstood as being malignant. So I had better 
> stop.
> 
> In reality, I am in full agreement with 'sitting directed to no object, and 
> attached to no content.'
> Â 
> Anthony
> --- On Mon, 11/4/11, siska_cen@...  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: siska_cen@... 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Monday, 11 April, 2011, 7:47 PM
> 
> 
> Â  
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Anthony, Bill,
> 
> If I may step in,
> 
> I understand Anthon

Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices

2011-04-12 Thread siska_cen

Hi Anthony,

Yes, I can read the character. My chinese is not good, so I need to double 
check whether I got it right :-)

Sitting with clear mind sounds like more suitable with jing zuo then?

Siska
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Wu 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 21:29:57 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices

Siska,

Yes.

If your computer has a Chinese reader, it is

静

Anthony

--- On Tue, 12/4/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 12 April, 2011, 1:55 PM

Hi Anthony,

A chinese language question, Jing as in jing zuo means silence or quiet right?

Siska

From: Anthony Wu  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 11:01:02 +0800 (SGT)
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices

Siska/Bill,

Dazuo (taza) is 'sit like a monk does'. Normally it is sitting cross-legged. I 
don't think it implies meditation. That position may be taken when Dogen gives 
you a koan lesson.

The Chinese term for meditation is 'channa', 'jingzuo', or 'jinglv'. But none 
of them are exactly equivaltent to 'meditation'. For instance, 'jingzuo' 
contains the character 'zuo', which is 'sitting'. In China, sometimes the 
sitting meditation is called 'zuozhuang', while the standing one is 
'zhanzhuang'.

静坐    坐桩    站桩    

If you tell Dogen shikantaza means 'tada suwaru', he will amend his saying and 
give you 30 beatings in reward.

Anthony

--- On Tue, 12/4/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 12 April, 2011, 10:00 AM

Hi Bill,

I don't know japanese, so I can only explain from chinese character perspective.

The term Shikantaza in chinese consists of four characters 'zhi', 'guan', 'da', 
'zuo'. Only the word 'zuo' means sit. 'da' 'zuo' put together means sitting 
meditation. Now when I person does the so-called sitting meditation, the mind 
can be clear, or not clear.

I guess that is what Anthony has been trying to say.

What you refer to with the term shikantaza is only sit, which is only possible 
with clear mind. That's why I thought it should perhaps be reduced to 'zhi' 
'zuo' (zhi=only, zuo=sit). In japanese perhaps it becomes shiza??

Siska 

From: "Bill!"  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 01:05:30 -
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices

To Anthony and Siska,

What you seem to be saying is NOT that the Chinese/Japanese character for 'sit' 
is misinterpreted to mean 'clear mind'; what you are seeming to imply is that 
the Chinese/Japanese character for 'sit' means more than to 'just sit'. It 
means sitting AND thinking, daydreaming, etc...

What is the Chinese/Japanese word(s)/character(s) for 'meditation'?

...Bill!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Anthony,
> 
> I haven't been exposed to a lot of zen 'stuffs', but from what I gathered so 
> far, it seems that shikantaza does carry a value more than its literal 
> meaning. But then again many people don't understand its literal meaning in 
> its original language. Maybe, many people assume these words to mean 'sit', 
> while 'da zuo' is means sitting meditation instead of sitting. To those who 
> learn shikantaza (as word) as 'clear mind sitting', then that is what 
> shikantaza means. That is what I thought until I saw the chinese characters. 
> There probably is no right term for sitting with clear mind anyway.
> 
> Now if I go further, this will end up to something like 'words always fail in 
> describing something like this', but Ed has asked me to be moon-gazer 
> practitioner once, I might really have to accept the invitation if I go on 
> (which might be a good idea afterall).
> 
> Have a good evening,
> 
> Siska
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Anthony Wu 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 21:02:36 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
> 
> Siska,
> Â 
> I am glad you understand Chinese. What I have been trying to do is to avoid 
> being a laughing stock when they insist the word 'just sit' can carry an 
> additional sense of 'clear mind'. It

Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices

2011-04-12 Thread siska_cen

Hi Mayka,

I would say that all discussions are rational and intellectual. But that is 
simply how we are right now, full of rationales and intellectual thoughts.

In the present moment, no one is anchored to it because no one exists. When one 
exists, he/she is not in the present moment.

Siska

-Original Message-
From: Maria Lopez 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 09:06:12 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices

Siska:

I don't know the Chinese or Japanes caracters but it doen's seem to me that 
knowing that is helping much Anthony or yourself.  Trying to figure out the 
meaning through the rational mind won't work.  If shikantaza has been 
translated as just "sit down"  It occur to me that it was done in that way as a 
prevention to get into rational or intelectualization.  It means only that ones 
sits down.  Once one sits down the movie about oneselves starts and many things 
happen in the process.  The indication about sit down with clear mind it's an 
added tip that comes to say that once one sits down everything gets clear in 
the mind in the process of sitting down as one  is anchored in the present 
moment, fully present and fully alive in awareness.  Form is emptiness, 
emptiness is form. 

Mayka

--- On Tue, 12/4/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 12 April, 2011, 3:00

Hi Bill,

I don't know japanese, so I can only explain from chinese character perspective.

The term Shikantaza in chinese consists of four characters 'zhi', 'guan', 'da', 
'zuo'. Only the word 'zuo' means sit. 'da' 'zuo' put together means sitting 
meditation. Now when I person does the so-called sitting meditation, the mind 
can be clear, or not clear.

I guess that is what Anthony has been trying to say.

What you refer to with the term shikantaza is only sit, which is only possible 
with clear mind. That's why I thought it should perhaps be reduced to 'zhi' 
'zuo' (zhi=only, zuo=sit). In japanese perhaps it becomes shiza??

Siska

From: "Bill!"  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 01:05:30 -
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices

To Anthony and Siska,

What you seem to be saying is NOT that the Chinese/Japanese character for 'sit' 
is misinterpreted to mean 'clear mind'; what you are seeming to imply is that 
the Chinese/Japanese character for 'sit' means more than to 'just sit'. It 
means sitting AND thinking, daydreaming, etc...

What is the Chinese/Japanese word(s)/character(s) for 'meditation'?

...Bill!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Anthony,
> 
> I haven't been exposed to a lot of zen 'stuffs', but from what I gathered so 
> far, it seems that shikantaza does carry a value more than its literal 
> meaning. But then again many people don't understand its literal meaning in 
> its original language. Maybe, many people assume these words to mean 'sit', 
> while 'da zuo' is means sitting meditation instead of sitting. To those who 
> learn shikantaza (as word) as 'clear mind sitting', then that is what 
> shikantaza means. That is what I thought until I saw the chinese characters. 
> There probably is no right term for sitting with clear mind anyway.
> 
> Now if I go further, this will end up to something like 'words always fail in 
> describing something like this', but Ed has asked me to be moon-gazer 
> practitioner once, I might really have to accept the invitation if I go on 
> (which might be a good idea afterall).
> 
> Have a good evening,
> 
> Siska
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Anthony Wu 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 21:02:36 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
> 
> Siska,
> Â 
> I am glad you understand Chinese. What I have been trying to do is to avoid 
> being a laughing stock when they insist the word 'just sit' can carry an 
> additional sense of 'clear mind'. It is more so when you show the Chinese 
> characters to those who know them(as real Chinese, not adapted by Japanese), 
> However, my efforts are misunderstood as being malignant. So I had better 
> stop.
> 
> In reality, I am in full agreement with 'sitting directed to no object, and 
> attached to no content.'
> Â 
> Anthony
> --- On Mon, 11/4/11, siska_cen@...  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: siska_

Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices

2011-04-12 Thread siska_cen

Hi Anthony,

Yes, I suppose jing (quiet) can be quiet as in not talking, or not moving, or 
it is the mind that is really quiet.

Oh well,
Siska
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Wu 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 21:38:00 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices

Siska,

Jingzuo is literally just 'sit quietly'. Again, you can attach the quality of 
'clear mind' or others.

Anthony

--- On Tue, 12/4/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 12 April, 2011, 9:34 PM

Hi Anthony,

Yes, I can read the character. My chinese is not good, so I need to double 
check whether I got it right :-)

Sitting with clear mind sounds like more suitable with jing zuo then?

Siska

From: Anthony Wu  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 21:29:57 +0800 (SGT)
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices

Siska,

Yes.

If your computer has a Chinese reader, it is

静

Anthony

--- On Tue, 12/4/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 12 April, 2011, 1:55 PM

Hi Anthony,

A chinese language question, Jing as in jing zuo means silence or quiet right?

Siska 

From: Anthony Wu  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 11:01:02 +0800 (SGT)
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices

Siska/Bill,

Dazuo (taza) is 'sit like a monk does'. Normally it is sitting cross-legged. I 
don't think it implies meditation. That position may be taken when Dogen gives 
you a koan lesson.

The Chinese term for meditation is 'channa', 'jingzuo', or 'jinglv'. But none 
of them are exactly equivaltent to 'meditation'. For instance, 'jingzuo' 
contains the character 'zuo', which is 'sitting'. In China, sometimes the 
sitting meditation is called 'zuozhuang', while the standing one is 
'zhanzhuang'.

静坐    坐桩    站桩    

If you tell Dogen shikantaza means 'tada suwaru', he will amend his saying and 
give you 30 beatings in reward.

Anthony

--- On Tue, 12/4/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 12 April, 2011, 10:00 AM

Hi Bill,

I don't know japanese, so I can only explain from chinese character perspective.

The term Shikantaza in chinese consists of four characters 'zhi', 'guan', 'da', 
'zuo'. Only the word 'zuo' means sit. 'da' 'zuo' put together means sitting 
meditation. Now when I person does the so-called sitting meditation, the mind 
can be clear, or not clear.

I guess that is what Anthony has been trying to say.

What you refer to with the term shikantaza is only sit, which is only possible 
with clear mind. That's why I thought it should perhaps be reduced to 'zhi' 
'zuo' (zhi=only, zuo=sit). In japanese perhaps it becomes shiza??

Siska 

From: "Bill!"  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 01:05:30 -
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices

To Anthony and Siska,

What you seem to be saying is NOT that the Chinese/Japanese character for 'sit' 
is misinterpreted to mean 'clear mind'; what you are seeming to imply is that 
the Chinese/Japanese character for 'sit' means more than to 'just sit'. It 
means sitting AND thinking, daydreaming, etc...

What is the Chinese/Japanese word(s)/character(s) for 'meditation'?

...Bill!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Anthony,
> 
> I haven't been exposed to a lot of zen 'stuffs', but from what I gathered so 
> far, it seems that shikantaza does carry a value more than its literal 
> meaning. But then again many people don't understand its literal meaning in 
> its original language. Maybe, many people assume these words to mean 'sit', 
> while 'da zuo' is means sitting meditation instead of sitting. To those who 
> learn shikantaza (as word) as 'clear mind sitting', then that is what 
> shikantaza means. That is what I thought until I saw the chinese characters. 
> There probably is no right term for sitting with clear mind anyway.
> 
> Now if I go further, this will end up to something like 'words always fail in 
> describing something like this&#

Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices

2011-04-13 Thread siska_cen

Hi Anthony,

If you are kind enough to give me the chinese character for buxing chan?

Thanks,
Siska
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Wu 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:52:08 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices

Bill,
 
Every language has its shortcomings. Jingzuo is literally 'sit quietly'. It 
came to mean meditation because you normally sit when you meditate. But if you 
do walking meditation, I
really don't know how to express it properly in Chinese. When I am forced, I 
can coin 'buxing chan' to call it. That is 'walking jhana'. 
 
The Chinese word zuochan is equivalent to Japanese zazen. Is that the normal 
term for meditation in Japanese?
 
'kinhin' is not walking meditation. It is Jingxing in Chinese, meaning 'walking 
a track'.
 
Anthony
--- On Wed, 13/4/11, Bill!  wrote:


From: Bill! 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 13 April, 2011, 9:56 AM


  



Anthony, What would the Chinese 'jing zuo' be in Japanese (and tranliterated 
into English)?

...Bill! 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Anthony,
> 
> Yes, I can read the character. My chinese is not good, so I need to double 
> check whether I got it right :-)
> 
> Sitting with clear mind sounds like more suitable with jing zuo then?
> 
> Siska
> -Original Message-
> From: Anthony Wu 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 21:29:57 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices
> 
> Siska,
>  
> Yes.
>  
> If your computer has a Chinese reader, it is
>  
> 静
>  
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Tue, 12/4/11, siska_cen@...  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: siska_cen@... 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 12 April, 2011, 1:55 PM
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Anthony,
> 
> A chinese language question, Jing as in jing zuo means silence or quiet right?
> 
> Siska
> 
> 
> From: Anthony Wu  
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 11:01:02 +0800 (SGT)
> To: 
> ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Siska/Bill,
>  
> Dazuo (taza) is 'sit like a monk does'. Normally it is sitting cross-legged. 
> I don't think it implies meditation. That position may be taken when Dogen 
> gives you a koan lesson.
>  
> The Chinese term for meditation is 'channa', 'jingzuo', or 'jinglv'. But none 
> of them are exactly equivaltent to 'meditation'. For instance, 'jingzuo' 
> contains the character 'zuo', which is 'sitting'. In China, sometimes the 
> sitting meditation is called 'zuozhuang', while the standing one is 
> 'zhanzhuang'.
>  
> 静坐    坐桩    站桩    
>  
> If you tell Dogen shikantaza means 'tada suwaru', he will amend his saying 
> and give you 30 beatings in reward.
>  
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Tue, 12/4/11, siska_cen@...  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: siska_cen@... 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 12 April, 2011, 10:00 AM
> 
> 
>   
> 
> Hi Bill,
> 
> I don't know japanese, so I can only explain from chinese character 
> perspective.
> 
> The term Shikantaza in chinese consists of four characters 'zhi', 'guan', 
> 'da', 'zuo'. Only the word 'zuo' means sit. 'da' 'zuo' put together means 
> sitting meditation. Now when I person does the so-called sitting meditation, 
> the mind can be clear, or not clear.
> 
> I guess that is what Anthony has been trying to say.
> 
> What you refer to with the term shikantaza is only sit, which is only 
> possible with clear mind. That's why I thought it should perhaps be reduced 
> to 'zhi' 'zuo' (zhi=only, zuo=sit). In japanese perhaps it becomes shiza??
> 
> 
> 
> Siska 
> 
> 
> From: "Bill!"  
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 01:05:30 -
> To: 
> ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
> 
>   
> 
> To Anthony and Siska,
> 
> What you seem to be saying is NOT that the Chinese/Japanese character for 
> 'sit' is misinterpreted to mean 'clear mind'; what you are seeming to imply 
>

Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices

2011-04-13 Thread siska_cen

Thank you, Anthony.

Siska
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Wu 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 16:32:37 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices

Siska,
 
It is :
 
步行禅
 
Anthony

--- On Wed, 13/4/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:


From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 13 April, 2011, 4:02 PM


  



Hi Anthony,

If you are kind enough to give me the chinese character for buxing chan?

Thanks,
Siska


From: Anthony Wu  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Wed, 13 Apr 2011 15:52:08 +0800 (SGT)
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices

  






Bill,
 
Every language has its shortcomings. Jingzuo is literally 'sit quietly'. It 
came to mean meditation because you normally sit when you meditate. But if you 
do walking meditation, I
really don't know how to express it properly in Chinese. When I am forced, I 
can coin 'buxing chan' to call it. That is 'walking jhana'. 
 
The Chinese word zuochan is equivalent to Japanese zazen. Is that the normal 
term for meditation in Japanese?
 
'kinhin' is not walking meditation. It is Jingxing in Chinese, meaning 'walking 
a track'.
 
Anthony
--- On Wed, 13/4/11, Bill!  wrote:


From: Bill! 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 13 April, 2011, 9:56 AM


  

Anthony, What would the Chinese 'jing zuo' be in Japanese (and tranliterated 
into English)?

...Bill! 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Anthony,
> 
> Yes, I can read the character. My chinese is not good, so I need to double 
> check whether I got it right :-)
> 
> Sitting with clear mind sounds like more suitable with jing zuo then?
> 
> Siska
> -Original Message-
> From: Anthony Wu 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 21:29:57 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices
> 
> Siska,
>  
> Yes.
>  
> If your computer has a Chinese reader, it is
>  
> 静
>  
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Tue, 12/4/11, siska_cen@...  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: siska_cen@... 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 12 April, 2011, 1:55 PM
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Anthony,
> 
> A chinese language question, Jing as in jing zuo means silence or quiet right?
> 
> Siska
> 
> 
> From: Anthony Wu  
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 11:01:02 +0800 (SGT)
> To: 
> ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices
> 
>   
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Siska/Bill,
>  
> Dazuo (taza) is 'sit like a monk does'. Normally it is sitting cross-legged. 
> I don't think it implies meditation. That position may be taken when Dogen 
> gives you a koan lesson.
>  
> The Chinese term for meditation is 'channa', 'jingzuo', or 'jinglv'. But none 
> of them are exactly equivaltent to 'meditation'. For instance, 'jingzuo' 
> contains the character 'zuo', which is 'sitting'. In China, sometimes the 
> sitting meditation is called 'zuozhuang', while the standing one is 
> 'zhanzhuang'.
>  
> 静坐    坐桩    站桩    
>  
> If you tell Dogen shikantaza means 'tada suwaru', he will amend his saying 
> and give you 30 beatings in reward.
>  
> Anthony
> 
> --- On Tue, 12/4/11, siska_cen@...  wrote:
> 
> 
> From: siska_cen@... 
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
> To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tuesday, 12 April, 2011, 10:00 AM
> 
> 
>   
> 
> Hi Bill,
> 
> I don't know japanese, so I can only explain from chinese character 
> perspective.
> 
> The term Shikantaza in chinese consists of four characters 'zhi', 'guan', 
> 'da', 'zuo'. Only the word 'zuo' means sit. 'da' 'zuo' put together means 
> sitting meditation. Now when I person does the so-called sitting meditation, 
> the mind can be clear, or not clear.
> 
> I guess that is what Anthony has been trying to say.
> 
> What you refer to with the term shikantaza is only sit, which is only 
> possible with clear mind. That's why I thought it should perhaps be reduced 
> to 'zhi' 'zuo' (zhi=only, zuo=sit). In japanese perhaps it becomes shiza??
> 
>

Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices

2011-04-13 Thread siska_cen

Hi Mayka,

I like the koan.

Thanks!!

Siska
-Original Message-
From: Maria Lopez 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 20:58:07 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices

Siska:

About your first stamement; I don' know. It all depends in what sort of mental 
state we are at the time of posting and receiving the posting too. It can be a 
mixture of a bit everything.  

About second statement since you like koans perhaps you may like this one:
"To exist or not to exist,  it's not the question"

Mayka

--- On Tue, 12/4/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 12 April, 2011, 15:58

Hi Mayka,

I would say that all discussions are rational and intellectual. But that is 
simply how we are right now, full of rationales and intellectual thoughts.

In the present moment, no one is anchored to it because no one exists. When one 
exists, he/she is not in the present moment.

Siska
From:  Maria Lopez 
Sender:  Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 09:06:12 +0100 (BST)To: 
ReplyTo:  Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices

  Siska:

I don't know the Chinese or Japanes caracters but it doen's seem to me that 
knowing that is helping much Anthony or yourself.  Trying to figure out the 
meaning through the rational mind won't work.  If shikantaza has been 
translated as just "sit down"  It occur to me that it was done in that way as a 
prevention to get into rational or intelectualization.  It means only that ones 
sits down.  Once one sits down the movie about oneselves starts and many things 
happen in the process.  The indication about sit down with clear mind it's an 
added tip that comes to say that once one sits down everything gets clear in 
the mind in the process of sitting down as one  is anchored in the present 
moment, fully present and fully alive in awareness.  Form is emptiness, 
emptiness is form. 

Mayka

--- On Tue, 12/4/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, 12 April, 2011, 3:00

Hi Bill,

I don't know japanese, so I can only explain from chinese character perspective.

The term Shikantaza in chinese consists of four characters 'zhi', 'guan', 'da', 
'zuo'. Only the word 'zuo' means sit. 'da' 'zuo' put together means sitting 
meditation. Now when I person does the so-called sitting meditation, the mind 
can be clear, or not clear.

I guess that is what Anthony has been trying to say.

What you refer to with the term shikantaza is only sit, which is only possible 
with clear mind. That's why I thought it should perhaps be reduced to 'zhi' 
'zuo' (zhi=only, zuo=sit). In japanese perhaps it becomes shiza??

Siska

From: "Bill!"  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 01:05:30 -
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices

To Anthony and Siska,

What you seem to be saying is NOT that the Chinese/Japanese character for 'sit' 
is misinterpreted to mean 'clear mind'; what you are seeming to imply is that 
the Chinese/Japanese character for 'sit' means more than to 'just sit'. It 
means sitting AND thinking, daydreaming, etc...

What is the Chinese/Japanese word(s)/character(s) for 'meditation'?

...Bill!

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Anthony,
> 
> I haven't been exposed to a lot of zen 'stuffs', but from what I gathered so 
> far, it seems that shikantaza does carry a value more than its literal 
> meaning. But then again many people don't understand its literal meaning in 
> its original language. Maybe, many people assume these
 words to mean 'sit', while 'da zuo' is means sitting meditation instead of 
sitting. To those who learn shikantaza (as word) as 'clear mind sitting', then 
that is what shikantaza means. That is what I thought until I saw the chinese 
characters. There probably is no right term for sitting with clear mind anyway.
> 
> Now if I go further, this will end up to something like 'words always fail in 
> describing something like this', but Ed has asked me to be moon-gazer 
> practitioner once, I might really have to accept the invitation if I go on 
> (which might be a good idea afterall).
> 
> Have a good evening,
> 
> Siska
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Anthony Wu 
> Sender: Ze

Re: [Zen] Re: Questions

2011-05-13 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill, Ed,

In my 'experience', what we take as our experience is also muddled with our 
concepts. It is not the experience as is. As we describe the experience, it is 
within our frame of reference.

In your example of tasting peach below, I wonder how one would describe the 
experience without any concepts. 

siska  
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 02:05:57 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Questions

ED,

The way I was using the word in my post below 'experience' is sensory 
awareness.  In more coarser words it is anything you see, feel, hear, touch or 
taste.

I used the word 'experience' in my post below to contrast with the word 
'explain'.

In that sense, 'experiences' are made up of sensory sensations in contrast to 
'explanations' which are made up of concepts.

An example would be describing the taste of a ripe peach (experience) in 
contrast to explaining how the sugars and acids of the peach excite your taste 
buds and then transmit electical impulses to different areas of your brain 
which are translated into concepts (like 'good') by your discriminating mind.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> 
> Bill,
> 
> What are 'experiences' and what are not 'experiences'?
> 
> Thanks, ED
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
>  ZldCR1MGlncMtcJN366lunTJFuhFBsRYXt1OsSdl2cwHDdn0PuzgDZi_BsgV63wMY> ,
> "Bill!"  wrote:
> >
> > Anthony,
> >
> > ED's concepts are not too complicated. If you want to engage with him
> or anyone else in an intellectual discussion you're going to have to
> employ concepts. I just think having an intellectual discussion about
> zen is about as useful as investigating quantum mechanics using Tarot
> cards. In each case you're just not employing the righ tool for the job.
> >
> > ED, in my opinion, doesn't DESCRIBE his experiences, he tries to
> EXPLAIN things - and usually they aren't even HIS explanations, they are
> someone elses (like a link to some other person's explanation). Most of
> the time ED does not even indicate if he agrees or disagress with the
> link to which he's pointing us.
> >
> > ...Bill!
>

Re: [Zen] Re: Questions

2011-05-14 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

Arts are heavily influenced by culture, although we can go beyond culture in 
appreciating forms of arts. Communicating Buddha Nature in this form is, IMO, 
still not concept-free. It's a good try though :)

I believe there is a kind of communication that takes place beyond the media, 
be it language or poem or painting. When one is communicating Buddha Nature, it 
takes another to understand it this way.

> Maybe a good koan for you would be 'What is a peach?'.

I don't think I know what it is.

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 14 May 2011 01:48:01 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Questions

Siska,

You posted the question:

> In your example of tasting peach below, I wonder how one would describe the 
> experience without any concepts.

This dilemma is the fundamental challenge of zen and the origin of all koans!

Buddha Nature is a state devoid of rationality, intellectualization and 
concepts, so how do you describe it or try to communicate it when the usual 
manner of communication (speech/writing) is based on concepts?  You could try a 
less rational form of commnication like art - poetry, painting, music, etc...  
Zen masters try to use their whole being as an non-rational medium of 
communictaion when asked questions like 'Does a dog have a Buddha Nature?' or 
'What is Buddha Nature?'.  I'm sure you've read enough koans to know what some 
of their responses were.

Maybe a good koan for you would be 'What is a peach?'.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Bill, Ed,
> 
> In my 'experience', what we take as our experience is also muddled with our 
> concepts. It is not the experience as is. As we describe the experience, it 
> is within our frame of reference.
> 
> In your example of tasting peach below, I wonder how one would describe the 
> experience without any concepts. 
> 
> siska  
> -Original Message-
> From: "Bill!" 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Thu, 12 May 2011 02:05:57 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Questions
> 
> ED,
> 
> The way I was using the word in my post below 'experience' is sensory 
> awareness.  In more coarser words it is anything you see, feel, hear, touch 
> or taste.
> 
> I used the word 'experience' in my post below to contrast with the word 
> 'explain'.
> 
> In that sense, 'experiences' are made up of sensory sensations in contrast to 
> 'explanations' which are made up of concepts.
> 
> An example would be describing the taste of a ripe peach (experience) in 
> contrast to explaining how the sugars and acids of the peach excite your 
> taste buds and then transmit electical impulses to different areas of your 
> brain which are translated into concepts (like 'good') by your discriminating 
> mind.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Bill,
> > 
> > What are 'experiences' and what are not 'experiences'?
> > 
> > Thanks, ED
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/post?postID=4f9XRg1jUQkxrPFD0f0\
> > ZldCR1MGlncMtcJN366lunTJFuhFBsRYXt1OsSdl2cwHDdn0PuzgDZi_BsgV63wMY> ,
> > "Bill!"  wrote:
> > >
> > > Anthony,
> > >
> > > ED's concepts are not too complicated. If you want to engage with him
> > or anyone else in an intellectual discussion you're going to have to
> > employ concepts. I just think having an intellectual discussion about
> > zen is about as useful as investigating quantum mechanics using Tarot
> > cards. In each case you're just not employing the righ tool for the job.
> > >
> > > ED, in my opinion, doesn't DESCRIBE his experiences, he tries to
> > EXPLAIN things - and usually they aren't even HIS explanations, they are
> > someone elses (like a link to some other person's explanation). Most of
> > the time ED does not even indicate if he agrees or disagress with the
> > link to which he's pointing us.
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
> >
>

Re: [Zen] Re: Three Western Myths About Mindfulness

2011-05-20 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed,

You are really good with the web. Thanks for the link!

siska 
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 06:09:37 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Three Western Myths About Mindfulness



Siska, see first line of:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensho
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kensho>--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Anthony,
>
> I'm curious, what is kensho in chinese?
>
> Thanks,
> Siska

Re: [Zen] Response to Ed

2011-05-21 Thread siska_cen

Hello Daniel,

Glad to see your posts in this forum, which give totally different 'flavour' 
and style from the rest.

Some of the suttas you quoted below were my favourites. These suttas provide 
guidance to our practice. When it comes to awareness that is referred to as 
buddha nature here in this forum, I think Bahiya Sutta and Mulapariyaya Sutta 
have more similar descriptions.

If I don't mis-understand from your few posts, you practised under Burmese 
tradition. From what I know, this tradition does not emphasise jhana, if not 
looking at it more as a hindrance. But you seem to understand it at experience 
level. Would you mind telling more about your practice?

I'm also interested to know more about sampajanna (clear understanding), which 
I suppose would not have anything to do with thinking or perceiving the 
experience one has in moment of mindfulness (sati)? When one experiences 
insight (nyana), what is the mental factor, if any, at that moment?

I apologise to all other forum members if this deviates too far from zen. I am 
too curious today. Let me know if this is not acceptable in this forum.

siska
-Original Message-
From: "empty0grace" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 19 May 2011 17:13:39 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Response to Ed


Hi Ed,



You asked me to post something about the essential Theravada teaching.
Let me say that I don't consider myself quite able to do this in a
full, succinct or balanced way, but here at least is an effort I made.
For the record, I am not especially interested in persuading anyone. I
do this because you asked me to, and because there is no one else here
to speak for the Theravada.



In the Pali canon, the Buddha refers to his teaching as the sadhamma, or
the good law, often simple the Dhamma for short, or Dharma in Sanskrit.
He also clearly states that the measure of any teaching that can be
considered to be from him, and authentic, would be the presence of the
Four Noble Truths at the core of that teaching. These are, as I am sure
you know:

* The Noble Truth of Suffering
* The Noble Truth of the cause of suffering
* The Noble Truth of the End of Suffering
* The Noble Truth of the Eightfold path that leads to the end of
suffering

He himself would often state: "Four things, and four things only do
I teach: suffering, its cause, its ending and the way."



The eightfold path, as I am sure you already know is: Right
understanding, right intentions, right speech, right conduct, right
livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness and right concentration.
Traditionally these can be divided into three groups: Sila, samadhi and
pañña or virtue, concentration and wisdom. The proper cultivation of
this path leads the destruction of the three unwholesome roots that are
the cause of suffering: greed, hatred and delusion. This is what
Theravada, or the Way of the Elders is about, no more and less.



I would say that in contrast to Japanese Zen, which seems to have a
strongly anti-intellectual style to it, the Buddha's teaching as
recorded in the Pali Canon, and practicse in the Way of the Elders,
emphasizes having a clear understanding of the teaching as being an
essential part of the guidance process. This would be called mundane or
unverified right understanding. This includes all of the basics of the
teaching: the five aggregates, the three signs of being (anicca, anatta
and dukkha), the six sense spheres with their six objects, the reality
of the Unconditioned, and co-dependent origination etc. Each limb of the
eightfold path is to be understood, so they too are included in right
understanding.  With time mundane unverified right-understanding become
mundane verified right-understanding as insight (vipassana) and
understanding (pañña) are developed. Eventually, when the
Unconditione is realized, mundane right-understanding become, lokutara
or supermundane right-understanding of the Deathless, Nibbana.



The Buddha also describes, in the Pali cannon, another way of talking
about right understanding as the four aspects of clear comprehension:
clear comprehension of the Dhamma, clear comprehension of purpose, clear
comprehension of suitability, and clear comprehension of the meditation
subject. Clear comprehension is something greatly emphasized by the
Buddha in this body of teaching, so much so that he often conjoined it
into one word with mindfulness: sati-sampajanna. Sati-sampajanna is
translated as mindfulness and clear comprehension. Right mindfulness
according to this body of teaching is not just awareness of the object,
but awareness accompanied by clear comprehension.



The Buddha's teachings on mindfulness are often repeated in the Pali
suttas, but the two most comprehensive suttas on this subject are the
Satipatthana Sutta, and the Mahasatipatthana Sutta. Both of these are
easily locatable on the web if anyone wishes to read them. Also in this
category is the Kayagasati Sutta, Discourse on

Re: [Zen] Re: Self Nature

2011-05-21 Thread siska_cen

Bill,

I somehow think Ed's description only tells the relation between D and B, and 
relation between D and C. It does not say anything about D.

siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 01:49:14 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Self Nature

ED,

The facts you presented only tell us about D.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
>
> 
> 
> Bill,
> 
> Let's consider three members B, C and D on the Zen Forum.
> 
> D experiences/perceives higher consciousness, or Buddha Nature, or
> spirituality in B, but not C.
> 
> Do these facts tell us anything at all about B, C or D?
> 
> --ED
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
> >
> I forgot to add to the bottom of my reply,,,
> 
> But I certainly DON'T feel any connections to Buddha Nature when reading
> St.
> Thomas Aquinas or any other religious philospher!
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> 
> 
> > ED,
> >
> > I find no fault with JMJM's post below. I could word-smith it a little
> bit
> (mostly by removing words) and condense it down into a statement of
> practice
> that is virtually identical to zen.
> >
> > Of course I could also do that with most any of Jesus' teachings
> talking about
> the Kingdom of Heaven, 'must become as a little child', 'Consider the
> lilies of
> the field...even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of
> these'.
> These all shout out BUDDHA NATURE to me.
> >
> > ...Bill!
>

Re: [Zen] Re: Self Nature

2011-05-21 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed,

Yes, that's what I think you are saying. It's D's perceptions, not D.

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 14:42:31 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Self Nature

siska,

Narrowing it even further, all that it tells us is about D's reflexive
experiencing of B and C, which has a myriad of causes and conditions in
D's life up to that point, and including experiences, knowledge, beliefs
and conceptualizations about Buddha Nature, spirituality or higher
consciousness.

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
Bill,

I somehow think Ed's description only tells the relation between D and
B, and relation between D and C. It does not say anything about D.

siska

ED,

The facts you presented only tell us about D.

...Bill!

> Bill,
>
> Let's consider three members B, C and D on the Zen Forum.
>
> D experiences/perceives higher consciousness, or Buddha Nature, or
> spirituality in B, but not C.
>
> Do these facts tell us anything at all about B, C or D?
>
> --ED

> I forgot to add to the bottom of my reply,,,
>
> But I certainly DON'T feel any connections to Buddha Nature when
reading
> St.
> Thomas Aquinas or any other religious philospher!
>
> ...Bill!

> > ED,
> >
> > I find no fault with JMJM's post below. I could word-smith it a
little
> bit
> (mostly by removing words) and condense it down into a statement of
> practice
> that is virtually identical to zen.
> >
> > Of course I could also do that with most any of Jesus' teachings
> talking about
> the Kingdom of Heaven, 'must become as a little child', 'Consider the
> lilies of
> the field...even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of
> these'.
> These all shout out BUDDHA NATURE to me.
> >
> > ...Bill!

Re: [Zen] Re: Self Nature

2011-05-22 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

I thought 'relationship' was not an appropriate term, but could not think of 
other at the time. I didn't mean it as a bilateral relation.

I guess you said the same thing as Ed and me then. It only tells D's 
perceptions, not B and C, and not even D as an individual.

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 10:57:38 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Self Nature

Siska,

No.  The description we had was only of D's perceptions, but that's all we have 
- so we do know a little about D but nothing about any other letters.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Ed,
> 
> Yes, that's what I think you are saying. It's D's perceptions, not D.
> 
> Siska
> -Original Message-
> From: "ED" 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sat, 21 May 2011 14:42:31 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Zen] Re: Self Nature
> 
> 
> 
> siska,
> 
> Narrowing it even further, all that it tells us is about D's reflexive
> experiencing of B and C, which has a myriad of causes and conditions in
> D's life up to that point, and including experiences, knowledge, beliefs
> and conceptualizations about Buddha Nature, spirituality or higher
> consciousness.
> 
> --ED
> 
> 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> >
> Bill,
> 
> I somehow think Ed's description only tells the relation between D and
> B, and relation between D and C. It does not say anything about D.
> 
> siska
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ED,
> 
> The facts you presented only tell us about D.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> 
> 
> > Bill,
> >
> > Let's consider three members B, C and D on the Zen Forum.
> >
> > D experiences/perceives higher consciousness, or Buddha Nature, or
> > spirituality in B, but not C.
> >
> > Do these facts tell us anything at all about B, C or D?
> >
> > --ED
> 
> 
> > I forgot to add to the bottom of my reply,,,
> >
> > But I certainly DON'T feel any connections to Buddha Nature when
> reading
> > St.
> > Thomas Aquinas or any other religious philospher!
> >
> > ...Bill!
> 
> 
> 
> > > ED,
> > >
> > > I find no fault with JMJM's post below. I could word-smith it a
> little
> > bit
> > (mostly by removing words) and condense it down into a statement of
> > practice
> > that is virtually identical to zen.
> > >
> > > Of course I could also do that with most any of Jesus' teachings
> > talking about
> > the Kingdom of Heaven, 'must become as a little child', 'Consider the
> > lilies of
> > the field...even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of
> > these'.
> > These all shout out BUDDHA NATURE to me.
> > >
> > > ...Bill!
>

Re: [Zen] Re: Self Nature

2011-05-22 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed,

> Any individual's perceptions or experiences or concepts or emotions 
> orsensations may or may not be of interest or value to another.

As much as it may or may not be of interest or value to the individual :-)

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Sun, 22 May 2011 14:30:26 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Re: Self Nature





Any individual's perceptions or experiences or concepts or emotions or
sensations may or may not be of interest or value to another.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>
> Siska,
>
> No. The description we had was only of D's perceptions, but that's all
we have - so we do know a little about D but nothing about any other
letters.
>
> ...Bill!

Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

2011-05-23 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed,

I still cannot figure out clearly what kensho actually is, but from the 
descriptions, it looks like kensho is very similar to nyana (insight) 
experience as in Mahasi tradition in Theravada.

Daniel, looking forward to your opinion (or correction). 

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 13:45:08 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism




Hello All,

Definitions: Zen = Zen Buddhism; zen = Zen minus the Buddhism

The Noble Eightfold Path is sometimes divided into three basic
categories as follows:


I.  Wisdom (Sanskrit: prajna, Pali: panna)

1. Right understanding

2. Right intention

II.  Ethical conduct (Sanskrit and Pali: sila)

3. Right speech

4. Right action

5. Right livelihood

III.  Concentration (Sanskrit and Pali: samadhi)

6. Right effort

7. Right mindfulness

8. Right concentration


o   Theravada Buddhism embraces all three categories of the Noble
Eightfold Path.

o   Zen accepts all three categories, but tends to de-emphasize I and
II, in my obsevation/knowledge/belief.

o   zen accepts category III only, or possibly only steps 7. and 8. of
category III.

---

Zenists (and zenists) seek to achieve, or, without seeking, achieve in
kensho-satori, glimpses of: a sense of no-self or no I/me/mine; a sense
of an absolute nondual reality; a sense of nothing arising or perishing;
a sense of freedom from all bonds; and a sense of seeing directly and
deeply into the nature of things, without discriminating or discursive
thinking.

The experience of the ineffable mind-space decribed above has been
labeled 'realizing Buddha Nature".

I say 'glimpses of a sense of'' because we have to take the practitioner
at his/her word, or the Zen Teacher at his/her word for this
accomplishment or non-accomplishment of a student of Zen experiencing
the above state.

And, it doesn't really matter because, no tangible benefits are promised
to ensue from these experiences. Do non-experiencers of kensho-satori
observe any tangible, positive transformation in Zenists who have
experienced kensho-satori? We do not know.

--



Of the dozens and dozens of zen/Zen centers in the US, perhaps only one
advocates 'zen'. Possibly for now we ought to only focus on comparing
Theravada Buddhism with *Zen*, and leave out zen.



Daniel, kindly tell us if through Theravada Buddhist practices,
experiences of mind-states similar to the ones in kensho-satori tend to
arise.

Thanks, ED

Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

2011-05-24 Thread siska_cen

Hi Chris,

Is it handy for you to quote the whole paragraph so it can be read in context?

If it is from Sit down and shut up, can you tell me the page number? I will 
look it up myself.

Thanks,
Siska
-Original Message-
From: ChrisAustinLane 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 09:33:15 
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

In the spirit of animated controversy, there is supposedly a quote by Dogen:  
kensho is the animated activity of non-Buddhists. I have only seen it quoted by 
Brad Warner, however. 

Thanks,
Chris Austin-Lane
Sent from a cell phone

On May 23, 2011, at 9:08, siska_...@yahoo.com wrote:

> 
> 
> Hi Ed,
> 
> I still cannot figure out clearly what kensho actually is, but from the 
> descriptions, it looks like kensho is very similar to nyana (insight) 
> experience as in Mahasi tradition in Theravada.
> 
> Daniel, looking forward to your opinion (or correction). 
> 
> Siska
> From: "ED" 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 13:45:08 -
> To: 
> ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism
> 
>  
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> Definitions: Zen = Zen Buddhism; zen = Zen minus the Buddhism
> 
> The Noble Eightfold Path is sometimes divided into three basic categories as 
> follows:
> 
> 
> I.  Wisdom (Sanskrit: prajna, Pali: panna)
> 
> 1. Right understanding
> 
> 2. Right intention
> 
> II.  Ethical conduct (Sanskrit and Pali: sila)
> 
> 3. Right speech 
>  
> 4. Right action 
>  
> 5. Right livelihood 
>  
> III.  Concentration (Sanskrit and Pali: samadhi)
> 
> 6. Right effort 
>  
> 7. Right mindfulness 
>  
> 8. Right concentration 
>  
> 
> o   Theravada Buddhism embraces all three categories of the Noble Eightfold 
> Path.
> 
> o   Zen accepts all three categories, but tends to de-emphasize I and II, in 
> my obsevation/knowledge/belief. 
> 
> o   zen accepts category III only, or possibly only steps 7. and 8. of 
> category III.
> 
> ---
> 
> Zenists (and zenists) seek to achieve, or, without seeking, achieve in 
> kensho-satori, glimpses of: a sense of no-self or no I/me/mine; a sense of an 
> absolute nondual reality; a sense of nothing arising or perishing; a sense of 
> freedom from all bonds; and a sense of seeing directly and deeply into the 
> nature of things, without discriminating or discursive thinking. 
> 
> The experience of the ineffable mind-space decribed above has been labeled 
> 'realizing Buddha Nature".
> 
> I say 'glimpses of a sense of'' because we have to take the practitioner at 
> his/her word, or the Zen Teacher at his/her word for this accomplishment or 
> non-accomplishment of a student of Zen experiencing the above state.
> 
> And, it doesn't really matter because, no tangible benefits are promised to 
> ensue from these experiences. Do non-experiencers of kensho-satori observe 
> any tangible, positive transformation in Zenists who have experienced 
> kensho-satori? We do not know. 
> 
> --
> 
> 
> Of the dozens and dozens of zen/Zen centers in the US, perhaps only one 
> advocates 'zen'. Possibly for now we ought to only focus on comparing 
> Theravada Buddhism with *Zen*, and leave out zen.
> 
> 
> Daniel, kindly tell us if through Theravada Buddhist practices, experiences 
> of mind-states similar to the ones in kensho-satori tend to arise.
> 
> Thanks, ED
> 
>  
> 
> 
> 
>

Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

2011-05-24 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

The literal meaning of kensho is not 'first glimpse'. When translated as first 
glimpse, does it mean that one can only experience kensho once?

Now trouble in understanding these two terms is that I've never attended any 
zen meditation retreat before. So I've never had any meditative experience 
where afterwards a certain teacher advise me that that is kensho. Whatever I 
think I know about kensho is only based on other people's descriptions. And 
these descriptions seem to be similar to an experience referred to as 
nyana/nana (insight) in Theravada meditation retreat.

Ed might have good links to describe what nyana/nana is for your comparison ;-)

When I'm fortunate enough to attend zen retreat and experience kensho, I'll let 
you know whether these two are the same :-)

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 09:17:33 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

Siska,

The term 'kensho' is Japanese term and is used in Japanese Zen Buddism.  It was 
used by teachers from both the Renzai and Soto schools in the zendo where I 
received instruction.

I was told that 'kensho' means 'first glimpse'.  That might not be the actual 
Japanese:English translations, but that's what I was told.  It refers to an 
event in which a student's (or anyone else) initially gains awareness of Buddha 
Nature.  It implies an awareness that is of short duration and fades quickly 
over time.

This term can be compared with 'satori' which I was told means 'great 
enlightenment'.  'Satori' is an event that marks an awareness of Buddha Nature 
is very deep and long-lasting.

This is my understanding of these two terms.

...Bill!

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Ed,
> 
> I still cannot figure out clearly what kensho actually is, but from the 
> descriptions, it looks like kensho is very similar to nyana (insight) 
> experience as in Mahasi tradition in Theravada.
> 
> Daniel, looking forward to your opinion (or correction). 
> 
> Siska
> -Original Message-
> From: "ED" 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Mon, 23 May 2011 13:45:08 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hello All,
> 
> Definitions: Zen = Zen Buddhism; zen = Zen minus the Buddhism
> 
> The Noble Eightfold Path is sometimes divided into three basic
> categories as follows:
> 
> 
> I.  Wisdom (Sanskrit: prajna, Pali: panna)
> 
> 1. Right understanding
> 
> 2. Right intention
> 
> II.  Ethical conduct (Sanskrit and Pali: sila)
> 
> 3. Right speech
> 
> 4. Right action
> 
> 5. Right livelihood
> 
> III.  Concentration (Sanskrit and Pali: samadhi)
> 
> 6. Right effort
> 
> 7. Right mindfulness
> 
> 8. Right concentration
> 
> 
> o   Theravada Buddhism embraces all three categories of the Noble
> Eightfold Path.
> 
> o   Zen accepts all three categories, but tends to de-emphasize I and
> II, in my obsevation/knowledge/belief.
> 
> o   zen accepts category III only, or possibly only steps 7. and 8. of
> category III.
> 
> ---
> 
> Zenists (and zenists) seek to achieve, or, without seeking, achieve in
> kensho-satori, glimpses of: a sense of no-self or no I/me/mine; a sense
> of an absolute nondual reality; a sense of nothing arising or perishing;
> a sense of freedom from all bonds; and a sense of seeing directly and
> deeply into the nature of things, without discriminating or discursive
> thinking.
> 
> The experience of the ineffable mind-space decribed above has been
> labeled 'realizing Buddha Nature".
> 
> I say 'glimpses of a sense of'' because we have to take the practitioner
> at his/her word, or the Zen Teacher at his/her word for this
> accomplishment or non-accomplishment of a student of Zen experiencing
> the above state.
> 
> And, it doesn't really matter because, no tangible benefits are promised
> to ensue from these experiences. Do non-experiencers of kensho-satori
> observe any tangible, positive transformation in Zenists who have
> experienced kensho-satori? We do not know.
> 
> --
> 
> 
> 
> Of the dozens and dozens of zen/Zen centers in the US, perhaps only one
> advocates 'zen'. Possibly for now we ought to only focus on comparing
> Theravada Buddhism with *Zen*, and leave out zen.
> 
> 
> 
> Daniel, kindly tell us if through Theravada Buddhist practices,
> experiences of mind-states similar to the ones in kensho-satori tend to
> arise.
> 
> Thanks, ED
>

Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

2011-05-25 Thread siska_cen

Hi Chris,

> The difference between sitting daily and sitting for a long period of time is 
> subtle. 
Can't agree more.

Thanks for the link from Brad Warner. As usual, it makes a nice reading. I 
heard not all his view on zen is in agreement with the 'mainstream' zen. Is it 
true?

Siska 
-Original Message-
From: Chris Austin-Lane 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 23:44:57 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

I find sitting when I have a cold or flu to be kind of nice - much less
worry about the future and fewer thoughts.

The difference between sitting daily and sitting for a long period of time
is subtle.

On Tue, May 24, 2011 at 8:32 PM, Mel  wrote:

>
>
> I have ever attended only the usual once-a-week gatherings and had never
> ever been in any of the retreats. The Soto temple I go to once in a while
> even offers courses on meditation and possibly also zen principles
>
> 2 things...
>
> - I meditate everyday (unless I'm under a  flu/cold attack) for 30 mins. I
> personally don't know how things will differ because I'm sitting on a chair
> for longer periods when in a retreat, as I've been told that the 'meat' of
> such retreat is still basically the zazen...just more of it. However, that's
> just me
>
> - I take the (Shunryu)Suzuki-sensei line which basically says NO
> INSTRUCTION WITH EXACT WORDS, because there's always the danger that a
> student will hold onto something and think that, that is it. Natural enough,
> as far as I'm concerned. So, if one of our Soto priests tells me that I've
> obtained satori...then...well..I don't know about the rest of the ladies
> and gents here, but it's not the sort of thing I'd personally be too
> comfortable with. Or, maybe it's just that I've been around too many
> Japanese and Koreans in the past who prefered silence as a form of teaching
> rather than going through all the trouble of explaining, or giving
> descriptions to everything. Again of course, that's just me
>
> Buddha be praised
> Mel
>
>
> --- On Tue, 24/5/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:
>
> Now trouble in understanding these two terms is that I've never attended
> any zen meditation retreat before. So I've never had any meditative
> experience where afterwards a certain teacher advise me that that is kensho.
> Whatever I think I know about kensho is only based on other people's
> descriptions. And these descriptions seem to be similar to an experience
> referred to as nyana/nana (insight) in Theravada meditation retreat.
>
>
>
>
> 
>

Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

2011-05-25 Thread siska_cen

Ed,

Apparently, I cannot do it with blackberry and unfortunately, I don't have time 
to do it on a PC probably until weekend.

Will definitely check what Maezumi Roshi said on kensho and satori.

Always appreciate your abundance of information,

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 14:41:05 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism



Maezumi Roshi was Bill's principal teacher, or one of Bill's two
principal teachers.

Google [Maezumi kensho].   Now click on 'books' at the left, to get a
set of books associated with Maezumi Roshi in which 'kensho' is
mentioned. Click on a book and you should be taken to one page where
'kensho' is mentioned.

Do the same with 'satori' instead of 'kensho'.

--ED



--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
Hi Bill,

The literal meaning of kensho is not 'first glimpse'. When translated as
first glimpse, does it mean that one can only experience kensho once?

Now trouble in understanding these two terms is that I've never attended
any zen meditation retreat before. So I've never had any meditative
experience where afterwards a certain teacher advise me that that is
kensho. Whatever I think I know about kensho is only based on other
people's descriptions. And these descriptions seem to be similar to an
experience referred to as nyana/nana (insight) in Theravada meditation
retreat.

Ed might have good links to describe what nyana/nana is for your
comparison ;-)

When I'm fortunate enough to attend zen retreat and experience kensho,
I'll let you know whether these two are the same :-)

Siska




Siska,

The term 'kensho' is Japanese term and is used in Japanese Zen Buddism.
It was used by teachers from both the Renzai and Soto schools in the
zendo where I received instruction.

I was told that 'kensho' means 'first glimpse'. That might not be the
actual Japanese:English translations, but that's what I was told. It
refers to an event in which a student's (or anyone else) initially gains
awareness of Buddha Nature. It implies an awareness that is of short
duration and fades quickly over time.

This term can be compared with 'satori' which I was told means 'great
enlightenment'. 'Satori' is an event that marks an awareness of Buddha
Nature is very deep and long-lasting.

This is my understanding of these two terms.

...Bill!

Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

2011-05-25 Thread siska_cen

Hi again Ed,

Btw, have you ever read anything on the Theravada nana (insight)? What do you 
think, is it the same with kensho-satori?

Siska 
-Original Message-
From: siska_...@yahoo.com
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 13:00:43 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

Ed,

Apparently, I cannot do it with blackberry and unfortunately, I don't have time 
to do it on a PC probably until weekend.

Will definitely check what Maezumi Roshi said on kensho and satori.

Always appreciate your abundance of information,

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 14:41:05 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

Maezumi Roshi was Bill's principal teacher, or one of Bill's two
principal teachers.

Google [Maezumi kensho].   Now click on 'books' at the left, to get a
set of books associated with Maezumi Roshi in which 'kensho' is
mentioned. Click on a book and you should be taken to one page where
'kensho' is mentioned.

Do the same with 'satori' instead of 'kensho'.

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
Hi Bill,

The literal meaning of kensho is not 'first glimpse'. When translated as
first glimpse, does it mean that one can only experience kensho once?

Now trouble in understanding these two terms is that I've never attended
any zen meditation retreat before. So I've never had any meditative
experience where afterwards a certain teacher advise me that that is
kensho. Whatever I think I know about kensho is only based on other
people's descriptions. And these descriptions seem to be similar to an
experience referred to as nyana/nana (insight) in Theravada meditation
retreat.

Ed might have good links to describe what nyana/nana is for your
comparison ;-)

When I'm fortunate enough to attend zen retreat and experience kensho,
I'll let you know whether these two are the same :-)

Siska

Siska,

The term 'kensho' is Japanese term and is used in Japanese Zen Buddism.
It was used by teachers from both the Renzai and Soto schools in the
zendo where I received instruction.

I was told that 'kensho' means 'first glimpse'. That might not be the
actual Japanese:English translations, but that's what I was told. It
refers to an event in which a student's (or anyone else) initially gains
awareness of Buddha Nature. It implies an awareness that is of short
duration and fades quickly over time.

This term can be compared with 'satori' which I was told means 'great
enlightenment'. 'Satori' is an event that marks an awareness of Buddha
Nature is very deep and long-lasting.

This is my understanding of these two terms.

...Bill!

Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

2011-05-25 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

The literal meaning of kensho (or jian xing in chinese) is not first glimpse. 
If it is referred to as first glimpse, then perhaps it is experienced only once.

Literal meaning of jian xing, as Anthony and Ed have explained to me, is seeing 
one's own nature. Some other descriptions say it happens very quickly and it is 
very clear. The experience of insight or nyana (nana) is where one sees the 
three characteristics of impermanence, sufferings and no-sef by experience. It 
is also very clear when it happens. That is why I concluded these two are same 
experience, referred to differently in different traditions. But I'm not sure.

I wonder if Daniel is still around, I hope he is. Am I the only one, apart from 
Daniel, in this forum who has practised Theravada meditation before?

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 07:39:41 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

Siska,

I was told 'kensho' meant 'first glimpse' or 'inital breakthrough'.  It does 
imply it is a one-time thing since it uses the adjectives 'first' and 
'initial'.  As I've said below 'kensho' is also not permanent although the 
memory of 'kensho' is pretty persistant.  I think it is a term mainly used in 
Japanese Renzai Zen Buddhism because their teaching techniques, such as koan 
study, are very aggressive (sudden enlighenment) and calibrated to push the 
student to experience Buddha Nature quickly.  For that reason the first 
experience is somewhat shallow and fleeting.  After that there is a long period 
of subsequent teachings (other types of koans) that help the student cultivate 
and integrate the experience of Buddha Nature into their everyday life.

This can be contrasted with Japanese Soto Zen Buddhism whose teaching 
techniques are more subtle (gradual enlighenment) and geared to a longer 
initial period of prepartation so that when Buddha Nature is finally 
experienced the student is much better prepared.

I don't know where I heard the following analogy, but it is:

'If enlightenment can be likened to being wet, Soto zen is like strolling 
aroung in a light mist for a long period of time before you suddenly realize 
you are soaking wet.  Renzai zen is like being suddenly pushed into a swimming 
pool!  You're wet, but you don't immediately know exactly what happened.

...Bill!  

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> 
> The literal meaning of kensho is not 'first glimpse'. When translated as 
> first glimpse, does it mean that one can only experience kensho once?
> 
> Now trouble in understanding these two terms is that I've never attended any 
> zen meditation retreat before. So I've never had any meditative experience 
> where afterwards a certain teacher advise me that that is kensho. Whatever I 
> think I know about kensho is only based on other people's descriptions. And 
> these descriptions seem to be similar to an experience referred to as 
> nyana/nana (insight) in Theravada meditation retreat.
> 
> Ed might have good links to describe what nyana/nana is for your comparison 
> ;-)
> 
> When I'm fortunate enough to attend zen retreat and experience kensho, I'll 
> let you know whether these two are the same :-)
> 
> Siska
> -Original Message-
> From: "Bill!" 
> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Tue, 24 May 2011 09:17:33 
> To: 
> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism
> 
> Siska,
> 
> The term 'kensho' is Japanese term and is used in Japanese Zen Buddism.  It 
> was used by teachers from both the Renzai and Soto schools in the zendo where 
> I received instruction.
> 
> I was told that 'kensho' means 'first glimpse'.  That might not be the actual 
> Japanese:English translations, but that's what I was told.  It refers to an 
> event in which a student's (or anyone else) initially gains awareness of 
> Buddha Nature.  It implies an awareness that is of short duration and fades 
> quickly over time.
> 
> This term can be compared with 'satori' which I was told means 'great 
> enlightenment'.  'Satori' is an event that marks an awareness of Buddha 
> Nature is very deep and long-lasting.
> 
> This is my understanding of these two terms.
> 
> ...Bill!
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> >
> > Hi Ed,
> > 
> > I still cannot figure out clearly what kensho actually is, but from the 
> > descriptions, it looks like kensho is very similar to nyana (insight) 
> > experienc

Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

2011-05-27 Thread siska_cen

Hi Bill,

Lucky for me you mentioned about limitation on words because the more I read on 
kensho-satori, the more I cannot really imagine what it is (or I was not able 
to imagine it since the first time I read about it).

I think I'd just give up. 

Until someone tell me that my certain experience is kensho/satori, I wouldn't 
really know what it is. I can live with this :-)

Thanks for your effort though

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "Bill!" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 03:07:34 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

Siska and ED,

Upon reading the quote below again I'd like to point out that it does support 
my definition of 'kensho' in that it is "...initial..." and "...just the 
beginning...".  It does not however contrast that with the term 'satori' which 
I did do. Maybe 'satori' is defined later on in this book - I don't know.  The 
'continuing' or 'follow-on practice' referred to in the quote below is usually 
necessary to lead to Dogen's 'highest peak' which I interpret as another term 
for 'satori'.

Before JMJM rightfully jumps down my throat I want to acknowledge that all 
these terms are just that - terms, concepts.  They are not really distinct 
states as we customarily divide/catagorize things with our discriminating mind. 
 These terms are used to try to communicate direct experience - the experience 
of Buddha Nature.  They are fraught with danger in that they are easily 
misunderstood and almost ineveitably become objects of attachments which in and 
of themselves can be a hinderance to practice.

But, as I've said over and over again, this is forum is hosted on a 
language-only, text-based, word-focused medium, so we have virtually no other 
means of communicating outside of using words - terms.  Because of that it is 
extremely important that we try our best to define our terms as specifically as 
possible so as to minimize their suseptibility to misinterpretation.

This is why I beat that dead horse over and over again.  I'm trying to bring it 
back to life.

...Bill! (...just plain old Bill! again now...)   

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>
> Siska and ED,
> 
> The definition of 'kensho' below as "...seeing into one's true nature' is 
> better than '...one's own nature...' for the reasons I posted in a previous, 
> recent post.  However for those same reasons I still opine it would be better 
> to drop the adjective 'one's'.
> 
> You could properly say 'one's own false nature'.  Each of us proably have one 
> of those.  But we all only have one True Nature.
> 
> 
> 
> The Subltler Kinder and Gentler Bill! 
> 
> --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED"  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > Siska,
> > 
> > From:  ''On Zen practice: body, breath, mind"  By Hakuyû Taizan
> > Maezumi, Bernard Tetsugen Glassman, Wendy Egyoku Nakao, Robert Aitken,
> > pp: 79-80
> > 
> > "In Zen practice, the first barrier is the seeing into one's true nature
> > (this seeing is called kensho). Dogen Zenji asks us to join him on the
> > highest peak. And yet this is just the beginning. We often see quite a
> > few Zen students who quit after their first kensho experience; this is
> > like being admitted to an excellent school and never taking any courses!
> > This is clearly not right practice; it is not the practice of which
> > Dogen Zenji writes."
> > 
> > http://books.google.com/books?id=sYxszufGBs4C&pg=PA80&dq=maezumi+kensho&\
> > hl=en&ei=ORDdTb2tNeLQiAK6-4zpDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&v\
> > ed=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=maezumi%20kensho&f=false
> > <http://books.google.com/books?id=sYxszufGBs4C&pg=PA80&dq=maezumi+kensho\
> > &hl=en&ei=ORDdTb2tNeLQiAK6-4zpDw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&\
> > ved=0CCoQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=maezumi%20kensho&f=false>
> > 
> > --ED
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@ wrote:
> > >
> > Hi Bill,
> > 
> > The literal meaning of kensho (or jian xing in chinese) is not first
> > glimpse. If it is referred to as first glimpse, then perhaps it is
> > experienced only once.
> > 
> > Literal meaning of jian xing, as Anthony and Ed have explained to me, is
> > seeing one's own nature. Some other descriptions say it happens very
> > quickly and it is very clear. The experience of insight o

Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

2011-05-27 Thread siska_cen

Hi Anthony,

I cannot relate seeing impermanence, suffering and no-self to being 
intelligence.
But being nuts sound like much more fun than being intelligence.

Siska
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Wu 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 10:54:39 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

Siska,

I had no idea on 'nyana'. Thanks to your explanation, I learned that it is 
insight into three characteristics of impermanence, suffering and no-self. 
Besides you and Daniels, we have Mike, who was going on this direction of 
samadhi and vipassana. But I don't know if he is still on this tack. "In my 
opinion", nyana is for intelligent people like you, while kensho is designed 
for crazy ones like me. If I am not nuts enough, I have Bill to fall back on. 
In other words, 'kensho' and 'satori' are realization that the world is not at 
all logical. Otherwise, you don't see so many disasters, suffering, terror and 
other horrifying things. In order to understand them,  I have to go nuts 
myself. On the other hand, nyana aims for intelligent answer to the world. I 
cannot say which one is right or wrong, much less saying they are the same. 
They and other 84,000 dharma approaches provided by the Buddha give you a 
choice.

Anthony

--- On Wed, 25/5/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 25 May, 2011, 9:29 PM

Hi Bill,

The literal meaning of kensho (or jian xing in chinese) is not first glimpse. 
If it is referred to as first glimpse, then perhaps it is experienced only once.

Literal meaning of jian xing, as Anthony and Ed have explained to me, is seeing 
one's own nature. Some other descriptions say it happens very quickly and it is 
very clear. The experience of insight or nyana (nana) is where one sees the 
three characteristics of impermanence, sufferings and no-sef by experience. It 
is also very clear when it happens. That is why I concluded these two are same 
experience, referred to differently in different traditions. But I'm not sure.

I wonder if Daniel is still around, I hope he is. Am I the only one, apart from 
Daniel, in this forum who has practised Theravada meditation before?

Siska

From: "Bill!"  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 07:39:41 -
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

Siska,

I was told 'kensho' meant 'first glimpse' or 'inital breakthrough'. It does 
imply it is a one-time thing since it uses the adjectives 'first' and 
'initial'. As I've said below 'kensho' is also not permanent although the 
memory of 'kensho' is pretty persistant. I think it is a term mainly used in 
Japanese Renzai Zen Buddhism because their teaching techniques, such as koan 
study, are very aggressive (sudden enlighenment) and calibrated to push the 
student to experience Buddha Nature quickly. For that reason the first 
experience is somewhat shallow and fleeting. After that there is a long period 
of subsequent teachings (other types of koans) that help the student cultivate 
and integrate the experience of Buddha Nature into their everyday life.

This can be contrasted with Japanese Soto Zen Buddhism whose teaching 
techniques are more subtle (gradual enlighenment) and geared to a longer 
initial period of prepartation so that when Buddha Nature is finally 
experienced the student is much better prepared.

I don't know where I heard the following analogy, but it is:

'If enlightenment can be likened to being wet, Soto zen is like strolling 
aroung in a light mist for a long period of time before you suddenly realize 
you are soaking wet. Renzai zen is like being suddenly pushed into a swimming 
pool! You're wet, but you don't immediately know exactly what happened.

...Bill! 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> 
> The literal meaning of kensho is not 'first glimpse'. When translated as 
> first glimpse, does it mean that one can only experience kensho once?
> 
> Now trouble in understanding these two terms is that I've never attended any 
> zen meditation retreat before. So I've never had any meditative experience 
> where afterwards a certain teacher advise me that that is kensho. Whatever I 
> think I know about kensho is only based on other people's descriptions. And 
> these descriptions seem to be similar to an experience referred to as 
> nyana/nana (insight) in Theravada meditation retreat.
> 
> Ed might have good links to describe what nyana/nana is for your comparison 
> ;-)
> 
> When I'm fortunate enough to attend z

Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

2011-05-27 Thread siska_cen

Hi Mike,

Thanks for clarifying!
Are you still working on the nyana?

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 12:10:14 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

Hi Mike and siska,   See below.  --ED

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul

"Buddhist parallels

In Buddhist vipassana meditation, the practitioner passes through the
"Sixteen Stages of Insight" (nanas) towards Awakening. Steps five to ten
are the "Knowledges of Suffering" (dukkha nanas):

* Knowledge of Dissolution (bhanga nana)
* Knowledge of Fearfulness (bhaya nana)
* Knowledge of Misery (adinava nana)
* Knowledge of Disgust (nibbida nana)
* Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance (muncitukamayata nana)
* Knowledge of Re-observation (patisankha nana)

Western Buddhist meditators and teachers regularly compare this
experience to the Dark Night, for example Jack Engler[6]
 :

The 16th century Christian contemplative, St. John of the Cross, called
this phase "the dark night of the soul" for the same reason: the night
is dark because it is overwhelmingly clear that neither God nor the soul
nor the self as we knew them are any longer to be found. There is
instinctive recoil and withdrawal: nothing seems sufficiently worth
doing or caring about without them.

These parallel experiences across faiths have led to speculation that
the Dark Night is a common spiritual or mystical state or stage which is
independent of the specific belief system. The Buddhist author Daniel
Ingram, who also invokes St. John, uses the term "maps" for the sequence
of mental states:

The Christian maps, the Sufi maps, the Buddhist maps of the Tibetans and
the Theravada, and the maps of the Khabbalists and Hindus are all
remarkably consistent in their fundamentals. (…) These maps,
Buddhist or otherwise, are talking about something inherent in how our
minds progress in fundamental wisdom that has little to do with any
tradition and lots to do with the mysteries of the human mind and body.

Note that not all variants of Buddhism recognize these stages."

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>
> Hi ED,
>
> A couple of points. First, I think Siska was referring to the nanas
(or nyanas) which are a bit different from the jhanas. Jhanas are states
of absorption that one experiences as a result of concentrating
(samatha) on an object of meditation (usually the breath). Nanas are
(16) stages of insight (vipassana) gained when we look inside and become
acutely aware of our sensate world. For example, by focusing our
attention on bodily pain we can come to realise its impermanence
>
> and thus the 3 Characters of Existence (this is the 3rd stage of the
nanas - the first 2 are: 1) body and mind and 2) cause and effect). The
jhanas alone won't give you wisdom, only vipassana will, but they're
useful for giving one the state of mind to go deeper into vipassana.
>
> Mike

Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

2011-05-27 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed,

"Note that not all variants of Buddhism recognize these stages."

Do you think zen is one of them, as in, there is no parallel to the nyanas in 
zen?

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 12:10:14 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

Hi Mike and siska,   See below.  --ED

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul

"Buddhist parallels

In Buddhist vipassana meditation, the practitioner passes through the
"Sixteen Stages of Insight" (nanas) towards Awakening. Steps five to ten
are the "Knowledges of Suffering" (dukkha nanas):

* Knowledge of Dissolution (bhanga nana)
* Knowledge of Fearfulness (bhaya nana)
* Knowledge of Misery (adinava nana)
* Knowledge of Disgust (nibbida nana)
* Knowledge of Desire for Deliverance (muncitukamayata nana)
* Knowledge of Re-observation (patisankha nana)

Western Buddhist meditators and teachers regularly compare this
experience to the Dark Night, for example Jack Engler[6]
 :

The 16th century Christian contemplative, St. John of the Cross, called
this phase "the dark night of the soul" for the same reason: the night
is dark because it is overwhelmingly clear that neither God nor the soul
nor the self as we knew them are any longer to be found. There is
instinctive recoil and withdrawal: nothing seems sufficiently worth
doing or caring about without them.

These parallel experiences across faiths have led to speculation that
the Dark Night is a common spiritual or mystical state or stage which is
independent of the specific belief system. The Buddhist author Daniel
Ingram, who also invokes St. John, uses the term "maps" for the sequence
of mental states:

The Christian maps, the Sufi maps, the Buddhist maps of the Tibetans and
the Theravada, and the maps of the Khabbalists and Hindus are all
remarkably consistent in their fundamentals. (…) These maps,
Buddhist or otherwise, are talking about something inherent in how our
minds progress in fundamental wisdom that has little to do with any
tradition and lots to do with the mysteries of the human mind and body.

Note that not all variants of Buddhism recognize these stages."

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, mike brown  wrote:
>
> Hi ED,
>
> A couple of points. First, I think Siska was referring to the nanas
(or nyanas) which are a bit different from the jhanas. Jhanas are states
of absorption that one experiences as a result of concentrating
(samatha) on an object of meditation (usually the breath). Nanas are
(16) stages of insight (vipassana) gained when we look inside and become
acutely aware of our sensate world. For example, by focusing our
attention on bodily pain we can come to realise its impermanence
>
> and thus the 3 Characters of Existence (this is the 3rd stage of the
nanas - the first 2 are: 1) body and mind and 2) cause and effect). The
jhanas alone won't give you wisdom, only vipassana will, but they're
useful for giving one the state of mind to go deeper into vipassana.
>
> Mike

Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

2011-05-27 Thread siska_cen

Hi Anthony,

I don't know what wise is, but tell me, is it difficult to pass Bill's test?

Siska
-Original Message-
From: Anthony Wu 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Fri, 27 May 2011 18:35:12 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

Siska,

Sorry, the proper word should be wisdom, instead of intelligence.

It is not easy to go nuts, you have to pass qualification test by Bill first.

Anthony

--- On Fri, 27/5/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, 27 May, 2011, 6:21 PM

Hi Anthony,

I cannot relate seeing impermanence, suffering and no-self to being 
intelligence.
But being nuts sound like much more fun than being intelligence.

Siska

From: Anthony Wu  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 10:54:39 +0800 (SGT)
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

Siska,

I had no idea on 'nyana'. Thanks to your explanation, I learned that it is 
insight into three characteristics of impermanence, suffering and no-self. 
Besides you and Daniels, we have Mike, who was going on this direction of 
samadhi and vipassana. But I don't know if he is still on this tack. "In my 
opinion", nyana is for intelligent people like you, while kensho is designed 
for crazy ones like me. If I am not nuts enough, I have Bill to fall back on. 
In other words, 'kensho' and 'satori' are realization that the world is not at 
all logical. Otherwise, you don't see so many disasters, suffering, terror and 
other horrifying things. In order to understand them,  I have to go nuts 
myself. On the other hand, nyana aims for intelligent answer to the world. I 
cannot say which one is right or wrong, much less saying they are the same. 
They and other 84,000 dharma approaches provided by the Buddha give you a 
choice.

Anthony

--- On Wed, 25/5/11, siska_...@yahoo.com  wrote:

From: siska_...@yahoo.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism
To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, 25 May, 2011, 9:29 PM

Hi Bill,

The literal meaning of kensho (or jian xing in chinese) is not first glimpse. 
If it is referred to as first glimpse, then perhaps it is experienced only once.

Literal meaning of jian xing, as Anthony and Ed have explained to me, is seeing 
one's own nature. Some other descriptions say it happens very quickly and it is 
very clear. The experience of insight or nyana (nana) is where one sees the 
three characteristics of impermanence, sufferings and no-sef by experience. It 
is also very clear when it happens. That is why I concluded these two are same 
experience, referred to differently in different traditions. But I'm not sure.

I wonder if Daniel is still around, I hope he is. Am I the only one, apart from 
Daniel, in this forum who has practised Theravada meditation before?

Siska 

From: "Bill!"  
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Date: Wed, 25 May 2011 07:39:41 -
To: 
ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com 
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

Siska,

I was told 'kensho' meant 'first glimpse' or 'inital breakthrough'. It does 
imply it is a one-time thing since it uses the adjectives 'first' and 
'initial'. As I've said below 'kensho' is also not permanent although the 
memory of 'kensho' is pretty persistant. I think it is a term mainly used in 
Japanese Renzai Zen Buddhism because their teaching techniques, such as koan 
study, are very aggressive (sudden enlighenment) and calibrated to push the 
student to experience Buddha Nature quickly. For that reason the first 
experience is somewhat shallow and fleeting. After that there is a long period 
of subsequent teachings (other types of koans) that help the student cultivate 
and integrate the experience of Buddha Nature into their everyday life.

This can be contrasted with Japanese Soto Zen Buddhism whose teaching 
techniques are more subtle (gradual enlighenment) and geared to a longer 
initial period of prepartation so that when Buddha Nature is finally 
experienced the student is much better prepared.

I don't know where I heard the following analogy, but it is:

'If enlightenment can be likened to being wet, Soto zen is like strolling 
aroung in a light mist for a long period of time before you suddenly realize 
you are soaking wet. Renzai zen is like being suddenly pushed into a swimming 
pool! You're wet, but you don't immediately know exactly what happened.

...Bill! 

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
> 
> The literal meaning of kensho is not 'first glimpse'. When translated as 
> first glimpse, does it mean that one c

Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

2011-05-27 Thread siska_cen

Hi Ed,

> Giving the said brain-state/mind-state (kensho) a label does not equate it to 
> that label (whatever that label might signify.)

I've read this a few times and still don't really understand it. If put this 
way, 'no word/label can represent the mind-state of the so-called kensho', is 
it what you meant?

Siska
-Original Message-
From: "ED" 
Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Date: Thu, 26 May 2011 12:57:59 
To: 
Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Zen] Zen, zen and Theravada Buddhism

In my perception, "True nature" or "Buddha Nature" are merely *labels*
for a brain-state/mind-state, usually arrived at after much zazen, which
experiences reality in a particular way.

Giving the said brain-state/mind-state (kensho) a label does not equate
it to that label (whatever that label might signify.)

--ED

--- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!"  wrote:
>

> My remarks below are entirely logical - and that's the weakness in
them in trying to define or denote Buddha Nature.

> ...Bill!

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