Hi Anthony, A chinese language question, Jing as in jing zuo means silence or quiet right?
Siska -----Original Message----- From: Anthony Wu <wu...@yahoo.com.sg> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 11:01:02 To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditat'ion practices Siska/Bill, Dazuo (taza) is 'sit like a monk does'. Normally it is sitting cross-legged. I don't think it implies meditation. That position may be taken when Dogen gives you a koan lesson. The Chinese term for meditation is 'channa', 'jingzuo', or 'jinglv'. But none of them are exactly equivaltent to 'meditation'. For instance, 'jingzuo' contains the character 'zuo', which is 'sitting'. In China, sometimes the sitting meditation is called 'zuozhuang', while the standing one is 'zhanzhuang'. 静坐 坐桩 站桩 If you tell Dogen shikantaza means 'tada suwaru', he will amend his saying and give you 30 beatings in reward. Anthony --- On Tue, 12/4/11, siska_...@yahoo.com <siska_...@yahoo.com> wrote: From: siska_...@yahoo.com <siska_...@yahoo.com> Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tuesday, 12 April, 2011, 10:00 AM Hi Bill, I don't know japanese, so I can only explain from chinese character perspective. The term Shikantaza in chinese consists of four characters 'zhi', 'guan', 'da', 'zuo'. Only the word 'zuo' means sit. 'da' 'zuo' put together means sitting meditation. Now when I person does the so-called sitting meditation, the mind can be clear, or not clear. I guess that is what Anthony has been trying to say. What you refer to with the term shikantaza is only sit, which is only possible with clear mind. That's why I thought it should perhaps be reduced to 'zhi' 'zuo' (zhi=only, zuo=sit). In japanese perhaps it becomes shiza?? Siska From: "Bill!" <billsm...@hhs1963.org> Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2011 01:05:30 -0000 To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices To Anthony and Siska, What you seem to be saying is NOT that the Chinese/Japanese character for 'sit' is misinterpreted to mean 'clear mind'; what you are seeming to imply is that the Chinese/Japanese character for 'sit' means more than to 'just sit'. It means sitting AND thinking, daydreaming, etc... What is the Chinese/Japanese word(s)/character(s) for 'meditation'? ...Bill! ...Bill! --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, siska_cen@... wrote: > > Hi Anthony, > > I haven't been exposed to a lot of zen 'stuffs', but from what I gathered so > far, it seems that shikantaza does carry a value more than its literal > meaning. But then again many people don't understand its literal meaning in > its original language. Maybe, many people assume these words to mean 'sit', > while 'da zuo' is means sitting meditation instead of sitting. To those who > learn shikantaza (as word) as 'clear mind sitting', then that is what > shikantaza means. That is what I thought until I saw the chinese characters. > There probably is no right term for sitting with clear mind anyway. > > Now if I go further, this will end up to something like 'words always fail in > describing something like this', but Ed has asked me to be moon-gazer > practitioner once, I might really have to accept the invitation if I go on > (which might be a good idea afterall). > > Have a good evening, > > Siska > > -----Original Message----- > From: Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2011 21:02:36 > To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> > Reply-To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices > > Siska, >  > I am glad you understand Chinese. What I have been trying to do is to avoid > being a laughing stock when they insist the word 'just sit' can carry an > additional sense of 'clear mind'. It is more so when you show the Chinese > characters to those who know them(as real Chinese, not adapted by Japanese), > However, my efforts are misunderstood as being malignant. So I had better > stop. > > In reality, I am in full agreement with 'sitting directed to no object, and > attached to no content.' >  > Anthony > --- On Mon, 11/4/11, siska_cen@... <siska_cen@...> wrote: > > > From: siska_cen@... <siska_cen@...> > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Date: Monday, 11 April, 2011, 7:47 PM > > >  > > > > Hi Anthony, Bill, > > If I may step in, > > I understand Anthony's point because I happen to understand the chinese > characters of shikantaza, which if I'm not mistaken, spelled zhi guan da zuo, > which literally means only sitting, as meditation kind of sitting. But when > sitting as referred to in this term, a lot of things can happen in the mind. > > The way I understand it, Bill might refer to literally only 'sitting' and > nothing else, which can only happen when the mind is clear. Perhaps in > chinese, it will have to reduce to literally 'only (zhi) and sit (zuo). But I > suppose the japanese term would no longer be shikantaza. > > In this case, I do think the term shikantaza as rather limiting. How do you > call a state of clear mind just as in zazen, when it happens while you are > not in sitting position? :-) > > Siska > > > > From: Anthony Wu <wuasg@...> > Sender: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sun, 10 Apr 2011 10:54:39 +0800 (SGT) > To: <Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com> > ReplyTo: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Subject: Re: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices > >  > > > > > > > Bill, >  > You say, 'I was taught that 'shikantaza' means 'just sit' - nothing else.' >  > It is 100% correct. If you 'just sit', you can do day dreaming, or think > about your girl friend.  There is no definite connection between shikantaza > and clear mind. >  > Google quotes some Japanese sources that have shikantaza imply clear mind. I > thought about that, and concluded that the word is foreign to Japanese, so > they unwittingly added additional meanings to it. However, the original > Chinese word means only 'just sit' and nothing else. It is colloquial. When > you ask a 10 year old Chinese boy to do shikantaza, he will immediately sit > cross-legged in front of you. You cannot see his mind anyway. >  > The better way is to say 'shikantaza with clear mind'. >  > Anthony > > --- On Sun, 10/4/11, Bill! <BillSmart@...> wrote: > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@...> > Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > Date: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 8:31 AM > > >  > > Anthony, > > I was taught that 'shikantaza' means 'just sit' - nothing else. How could > there be some kind of shikantaza that WASN'T 'clear mind'? If your mind was > not clear, if you were thinking about something, it wouldn't be shikantaza. > > That is the way I use this word 'shikantaza' anyway. If you could suggest a > better word please do... > > ...Bill! > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, Anthony Wu <wuasg@> wrote: > > > > Bill, > >  > > Correction: > >  > > Anything else like counting or following the breath or koans are only > > teaching techniques to get you to shikantaza with clear mind. > >  > > Anthony > > > > --- On Sun, 10/4/11, Bill! <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > From: Bill! <BillSmart@> > > Subject: [Zen] Re: Buddhist meditation practices > > To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com > > Date: Sunday, 10 April, 2011, 12:05 AM > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > ED, > > > > In my opinion shikantaza is zazen. Anything else like counting or following > > the breath or koans are only teaching techniques to get you to shikantaza. > > > > ...Bill! > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED" <seacrofter001@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Bill, > > > > > > The list, author unknown is to be found in the source below. > > > > > > Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_meditation > > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_meditation> > > > > > > Shikantaza is an awareness practice, whereas zazen involves both > > > concentration meditation (breath-counting for instance) and shikantaza, > > > in varying extents. > > > > > > --ED > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "Bill!" <BillSmart@> wrote: > > > > > > > > ED, > > > > > > > > Under the ZEN BUDDHIST MEDITATION PRACTICES what do you think whomever > > > made up this list (you?) thinks is the difference between 'zazen' and > > > 'shikantaza'? > > > > > > > > Thanks...Bill! > > > > > > > > > > --- In Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com, "ED" seacrofter001@ wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_meditation > > > <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_meditation> > > > > > >
