Re: [Zen] Greying of the Sangha...
From: Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, 19 August 2012 4:45 AM Subject: [Zen] Greying of the Sangha... Howdy, All, --- MEL: Hello Joe - The sanghas were looking more and more like groups of old people. MEL: Yeah, I noticed that too...and the same reason I left the church, not to mention the psychological problems of some --- Perhaps there was a wave of people in the 1960s and 1970s Stateside who were influenced to become interested in formal Zen practice, and the greying perceived of late is essentially the Zen-baby-boom of practitioners which is now naturally aging, moving through the sangha(s). Perhaps conditions are not as favorable now for young people entering practice. -- MEL: Those days must have been different times with equally different conditions, with the Vietnam War going on, and all that personal awakening from the restrictions of the '40s and '50s. Also, an interest in all things Asian or Oriental had caught on. Weren't the members of the BEATLES band obsessed for a while with all things Indian? Also, and despite WW2, it's surprising that an interest in all things Japanese also came out - On the other hand, we all know that it takes a certain maturity to sit Zen, and to keep at it. MEL: Yes, it does. It is so plain and down-to-earth that some eventually move onto Tibetan Buddhism (or some other belief system) where there's more colour and what-have-you to tease, or titillate the senses -- But the perceived greying is the perception of a REAL phenomenon: the predominant hair color in the 20 or so affiliate sanghas has become grey or white. It was not so earlier! The age of the average sangha member is still steadily increasing. I'm not involved in the said sangha any longer, so I am not actively looking for ways to change the greying phenomenon. I wonder if this greying is noted in other sanghas, elsewhere. - MEL: I suppose there's nothing wrong with the greying as such of the sanghas, but it does make it harder to relate to someone many years older than oneself. Without that connection, there's practically zero room for any sort of discussion face-to-face because of the generation gapwhich makes it much easier for someone like me to go online where everyone is equal and with none of that I'M OLDER THAN YOU AND THEREFORE I KNOW BETTER bull. On the other hand, dealing with the young can be trying, depending on the age gap Buddha be praised Mel
Re: [Zen] Greying of the Sangha...
Posture and a little bit of yoga is pretty standard teaching even in the Soto lineages via Japan that have taught me. I have noticed one characteristic flaw that the youngsters make which is easier to avoid in through oldsters, which is a fearful attitude towards fatigue. People will deliberately sit in painful leg positions to avoid feeling sleepy. and I certainly agree a painful period is preferable to a sleepy period, but learning how to stay awake in through midst of fatigue is very valuable training. Certainly as a parent or on call person, I have had great use for a more open and flowing awareness at all sorts of sleepy times. To train oneself to be awake in the face of pain but not in the face of drowsiness is curiously incomplete. On Aug 18, 2012 5:36 PM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, Thanks! Yes, average-age varies with sanghas; right. And with geographic locales, and with teachers, too, I find. When I started formally I was 27, and most of the others in the sangha were about the same age. It's because the teacher had JUST come from China, and word was spread about his presence in America (New York City) on college campuses in Religion departments, and through general announcement flyers posted on campuses. I was lucky to see one of the flyers at Columbia, in the Physics Department where I worked! The teacher was 50 when I started with him. He lived and taught for another 29 years. In various sanghas I stayed long in, usually the only thing doing or going on, thankfully, was the Dharma: I'm glad I didn't meet with groups such as you mention who were overly sanguine about environmental affairs or civil rights. Time-and- place! I mean, surely there's a place for Engaged Buddhism, but I never even liked the sound of that label. In general, though, I have nothing to say against Boomers, but nothing very much to say for them, either. I know too many of them too closely, to know that they're/we're nothing special. And, if they ARE special in some area (great artist, teacher, Yogi, or scientist), then they are ordinary in other areas, or even deficient in some. Well, a bit like all of us, and like everybody before us! You might say it's the human condition. ;-) I don't let myself off this same hook, either, mind you. California seems a natural place where sanghas will always be young, Chris. Anyway, I hope it is always so. And I hope the old folks stick with it and bring a good example for the young ones joining. Teachers say -- sometimes lamenting -- that A teacher gets the students he/she DESERVES. We don't always get to choose. Maybe it's partly karma. If I am to be a teacher, I think I'd much rather teach to quite young people: the way I teach is pretty physical, and I think older people are usually not ready for this. Younger people competently take it as more of a challenge that they can accept and work with, and can get results pretty soon with, to keep them going. With older folk, some remedial building-up needs doing, if the person is to take well to our sort of practice, and vice-versa. It's serious! Health takes time to regain, if it's had a chance to slide. In our teaching, Posture is a big thing; Exercises; Self-massage; and some special Yoga exercises. Plus, extended periods of slow Prostrations. This is *not* the Japanese way of teaching, but comes through my teacher from China, Sheng Yen. It is wonderful, but not merely-wonderful: it is a practical wonder, when a student can begin it and continue it. I hope I can still teach this to young people well into my 90s... as well as to continue to practice it myself. Chris, I think you are too old to start at age 44. It may be the over-the-hill-gang for *YOU*, Old Man! ;-) No, we find really that it is all up to the practitioner. Sheng Yen had people with him who were always older than he was at any time, though they might not have been newcomers. Ah, but you have a sangha and teacher. Already blessed! Strong practice, Thanks again, Cheers, --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: In my Sangha in Maryland, I was one of the youngest. In California, about half are younger than I. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Greying of the Sangha...
Chris, Thanks, Chris, you make some interesting observations about attitudes or approaches to fatigue in meditation circles. I've never touched base with anyone about it, and I wonder how it came up, and came to your notice. Personally, I find that complete and thorough relaxation in sitting, and, even a good measure of fatigue, say, at the end of a long, warm afternoon on sesshin in the desert, is helpful to allowing the onset of Samadhi. So to me, fatigue in this context has no negative connotations whatever in my personal experience as a practitioner. A handy but debatable definition of samadhi that I like to bandy- about is that Samadhi is Falling asleep with your eyes open. You see how fatigue could be helpful there. As an Observational Astronomer, I suppose I have trained myself in my work, too, to maintain alertness in fatigued situations, as well as to live and work on a changeable schedule and with extremes of wakeful time and very little sleep. I find too that for me it is personally best to avoid stimulants of every kind, and to reply on nutrition: in others words, nutrition versus stimulation. Stimulants take a toll, nutrition does not. On sesshin, I similarly avoid tea and coffee, and I wean myself off these -- if I'm using them at all -- beginning about 10 days before sesshin. This way, I show up at retreat clean, and this is good for me and for all else who attend, because we sit sesshin as a group, you know, even if it looks to an outsider as if we practice alone. I know that some folks on sesshin would never be without these stimulants, but I think it never helps anyone, and just keeps people nervous. Terrible. Plus, it's called addiction, and that's not a good condition in which to keep the brain and nervous system, in a program of practice like Zen meditation. On Sheng Yen's Ch'an retreats, we drink plain hot water, from urns. I came to call this Sheng Yen Tea, and I drink it to this day. It's better for the stomach, maybe, than drinking cold water, he used to say. And I think it has other benefits, besides. Drinking it is relaxing, too, because we tend to linger over it, unlike drinking cold water, which we chug down. ;-) --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Posture and a little bit of yoga is pretty standard teaching even in the Soto lineages via Japan that have taught me. I have noticed one characteristic flaw that the youngsters make which is easier to avoid in through oldsters, which is a fearful attitude towards fatigue. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Greying of the Sangha...
I first became aware of the tactic of avoiding fatigue by adopting more painful sitting positions (full lotus over 1/2; 1/2 over Burmese) by trying it myself; I then noticed other young and eager folks doing similar and a few times had a conversation about the relative good vs. evil of sore legs vs. a sleepy brain. I try not to have a great gap between my home practice and my retreat practice, so I'm usually the guy that brings some instant coffee packets along. I also nap when I can, not sure why that's not more popular. I was greatly pleased when I read a story that the origin of tea is BodhiDharma's meditation and needing to stay awake he hurled his eyelids to the ground and the tea plant grew, or some such. There is an awesome study where they have people rate the friendliness of various faces while holding a cup of hot water and alternatively of cold water, and the folks with the warmth between their hands see others in a more positive light. Before I had kids, I would drink coffee for a few months then quit for a few months, but I always paid a price of lethargy for a few weeks in the afternoon after quitting it; I haven't tried to quit since having kids. Thanks, --Chris ch...@austin-lane.net +1-301-270-6524 On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 3:59 PM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Chris, Thanks, Chris, you make some interesting observations about attitudes or approaches to fatigue in meditation circles. I've never touched base with anyone about it, and I wonder how it came up, and came to your notice. Personally, I find that complete and thorough relaxation in sitting, and, even a good measure of fatigue, say, at the end of a long, warm afternoon on sesshin in the desert, is helpful to allowing the onset of Samadhi. So to me, fatigue in this context has no negative connotations whatever in my personal experience as a practitioner. A handy but debatable definition of samadhi that I like to bandy- about is that Samadhi is Falling asleep with your eyes open. You see how fatigue could be helpful there. As an Observational Astronomer, I suppose I have trained myself in my work, too, to maintain alertness in fatigued situations, as well as to live and work on a changeable schedule and with extremes of wakeful time and very little sleep. I find too that for me it is personally best to avoid stimulants of every kind, and to reply on nutrition: in others words, nutrition versus stimulation. Stimulants take a toll, nutrition does not. On sesshin, I similarly avoid tea and coffee, and I wean myself off these -- if I'm using them at all -- beginning about 10 days before sesshin. This way, I show up at retreat clean, and this is good for me and for all else who attend, because we sit sesshin as a group, you know, even if it looks to an outsider as if we practice alone. I know that some folks on sesshin would never be without these stimulants, but I think it never helps anyone, and just keeps people nervous. Terrible. Plus, it's called addiction, and that's not a good condition in which to keep the brain and nervous system, in a program of practice like Zen meditation. On Sheng Yen's Ch'an retreats, we drink plain hot water, from urns. I came to call this Sheng Yen Tea, and I drink it to this day. It's better for the stomach, maybe, than drinking cold water, he used to say. And I think it has other benefits, besides. Drinking it is relaxing, too, because we tend to linger over it, unlike drinking cold water, which we chug down. ;-) --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: Posture and a little bit of yoga is pretty standard teaching even in the Soto lineages via Japan that have taught me. I have noticed one characteristic flaw that the youngsters make which is easier to avoid in through oldsters, which is a fearful attitude towards fatigue. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Greying of the Sangha...
Interesting, Chris. I wonder if adopting more painful positions helped the meditation of those people, or you. By helped, I mean if it helped to make it more satisfactory to either the student or teacher, or both. I think it's good to break new ground in our practice, maybe by adopting a more balanced or more compact posture; or by sitting longer; or by incorporating exercises or stretching to help our ultimate relaxation; or by changing our diet; or, etc. Sometimes making a change, even an arbitrary one, can change things. A case in point is the Bamboo-Breathing taught by Sekida in his book ZEN TRAINING. At a certain point in a sit, a practitioner can change the rhythm of breathing, and this will be enough to break the usual pattern of a sit, and enable some changes. It's very effective (he teaches it well, so I won't go into it). Sleepiness is not always good to chase away, I think, though. When properly embraced or when we are quite lucky, Samadhi can come on when we are relaxed and sunken 'way down, without our eyes closing. Of course if we fall asleep and nod repeatedly, as we do when we sit sometimes, it's not altogether unpleasant, and I think even this does something good for us (although it disturbs our neighbors to the left and right). Usually we don't waste too much time this way, because the bell rings and we get up and walk kinhin, and then sit again, maybe a little refreshed. Did you know?: There's a method of practice in which the sitter sits all night and sleeps in lotus pose. People say that the legs really ache for the first year doing this, but after that the body likes it and the sleep is very good. I think usually only monastics practice this. It has a name in Japanese... Za- somthing. No, not Zazen! Zasui, I think. It's been years since I thought of it. By the way, I've heard other parents say that having kids drove THEM to drinking too, but at least your poison is Coffee, not the other. ;-) --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I first became aware of the tactic of avoiding fatigue by adopting more painful sitting positions (full lotus over 1/2; 1/2 over Burmese) by trying it myself; I then noticed other young and eager folks doing similar and a few times had a conversation about the relative good vs. evil of sore legs vs. a sleepy brain. [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Greying of the Sangha...
We are in general discouraged from evaluating sitting periods as being more or less satisfactory. The emphasis is more on right here, right now. Just as it is. Not about the student gaining something by diligent work which the teacher already had, but the teacher being with the student who is practicing living with the perspective that everything is fine already: right now, right here. In my experience, trying to do different things to get ahead in a meditation game covers up so many things, that for me at least, it is far better not to try to do anything. Just sit; stop crinkling up my mind; stop comparing and contrasting everything; stop judging thoughts as being good or bad; stop mistaking mental formations for being other than mental formations. That said, painful sitting periods are just painful sitting periods: like everything valuable reminders of the utility of inconvenience (and the relative nature of timed intervals : ). I do sit as close to full lotus as the time allotted makes seem plausibly doable. For sesshin, usually just 1 or 2 periods a day. At home, usually only 1/2 lotus, but it fluctuates as my hip flexibility varies, sometimes full lotus is easy, sometimes not. The bicycling seems to tighten up and the sitting and the yoga seem to loosen up, so there's that. It's a false dichotomy mind vs. body, and there is something about sitting balanced and still with a solid base. Thanks, --Chris ch...@austin-lane.net +1-301-270-6524 On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 8:54 PM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Interesting, Chris. I wonder if adopting more painful positions helped the meditation of those people, or you. By helped, I mean if it helped to make it more satisfactory to either the student or teacher, or both. I think it's good to break new ground in our practice, maybe by adopting a more balanced or more compact posture; or by sitting longer; or by incorporating exercises or stretching to help our ultimate relaxation; or by changing our diet; or, etc. Sometimes making a change, even an arbitrary one, can change things. A case in point is the Bamboo-Breathing taught by Sekida in his book ZEN TRAINING. At a certain point in a sit, a practitioner can change the rhythm of breathing, and this will be enough to break the usual pattern of a sit, and enable some changes. It's very effective (he teaches it well, so I won't go into it). Sleepiness is not always good to chase away, I think, though. When properly embraced or when we are quite lucky, Samadhi can come on when we are relaxed and sunken 'way down, without our eyes closing. Of course if we fall asleep and nod repeatedly, as we do when we sit sometimes, it's not altogether unpleasant, and I think even this does something good for us (although it disturbs our neighbors to the left and right). Usually we don't waste too much time this way, because the bell rings and we get up and walk kinhin, and then sit again, maybe a little refreshed. Did you know?: There's a method of practice in which the sitter sits all night and sleeps in lotus pose. People say that the legs really ache for the first year doing this, but after that the body likes it and the sleep is very good. I think usually only monastics practice this. It has a name in Japanese... Za- somthing. No, not Zazen! Zasui, I think. It's been years since I thought of it. By the way, I've heard other parents say that having kids drove THEM to drinking too, but at least your poison is Coffee, not the other. ;-) --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: I first became aware of the tactic of avoiding fatigue by adopting more painful sitting positions (full lotus over 1/2; 1/2 over Burmese) by trying it myself; I then noticed other young and eager folks doing similar and a few times had a conversation about the relative good vs. evil of sore legs vs. a sleepy brain. [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Greying of the Sangha...
Chris, Yes, well, that's the Party line as I understand it, too. ;-) When we practice our method of meditation, the method serves as a monitor, as well as a method. So, if you/we are not aware of what's doing, then that's an indicator of just that. I'm not saying you personally, Chris! Not *just* you. I think everyone wants to cleave to the method, in the sense of being intimate with it, _qua_ method, and because of what it may open up in us/for us/for all beings (the heart of compassion). I think everyone wants to do better, just as we are exhorted to do by our teacher. It may seem a difficult walk, a difficult balance!, but I think we know when we are on the beam. Of course, being on the beam is not the end of it. It's just being on the beam. Awakening may or may not come. And then there's all that practice after awakening. The emphasis on all being fine already is fine, and true from the point of view of Enlightenment, but from the point of view of Samsara or delusion, it's fiction to a lot of people. These are the people I care most about, if I were to pick and choose. Well, also, and as I like to say: The rain that has not fallen does the parched ground no good. (I live in the desert). But, we practice; and that's what counts for one who values practice, either for itself, and/or for what it may reveal. No matter why we practice, practice has the power to straighten us out... if we're lucky; have a scrupulous teacher; have a life that supports practice ( vice-versa); and we appreciate whatever comes, and pour back into practice what it pours out. On the other hand, there are people who are just drawn to practice because it seems natural to them, or else maybe they don't know *why* they are drawn to practice. In the Mahayana -- such as we are -- people who are drawn to practice are usually not drawn to it for themselves. In fact, we put off liberation, don't we?, until Samsara is all emptied out. But that's another conversation. ;-) --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: We are in general discouraged from evaluating sitting periods as being more or less satisfactory. The emphasis is more on right here, right now. Just as it is. Not about the student gaining something by diligent work which the teacher already had, but the teacher being with the student who is practicing living with the perspective that everything is fine already: right now, right here. [snip] Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Greying of the Sangha...
Joe, When I used to sit in the Fremantle Zen Centre about 12 years ago, the average age seemed to be around late middle-age. In Japan, amongst the lay folk, it was a lot older. Since starting Vipassana at the Goenka retreats, the average age seems to range between the mid-20s to early 40s. I think there are a number of reasons for this. Firstly, the Goenka retreats have no religious overtones at all - not even a picture of the Buddha - and is promoted as a meditative technique only (for insight into the Dharma) . Although it could be argued that Zen Buddhism is not a religion, the prostrations to an icon of the Buddha/Kwannon etc can easily be interpreted as such by the inquisitive seeker. Also, 'entry' into Goenka practice begins with a 10 day retreat. It'd be highly unusual to begin Zen practice with an 8 day sesshin (one usually sits once a week for a number of weeks or months before undertaking a sesshin). As you know, the mind settles much better on retreat and many fruitful insights are attained this way. Given that there are many Goenka Vipassana centres all over the world (conducted for free), many younger travellers/back-packers spread, by word of mouth, news of the efficacy of vipassana as a meditation technique. Zen seems a lot more 'crusty' in comparison. Mike From: Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 18 August 2012, 21:45 Subject: [Zen] Greying of the Sangha... Howdy, All, I don't know how many here sit regularly or occasionally with a Zen practice group -- a sangha -- and a teacher, but I have a general question which is a bit like a survey question for you, even if you don't sit with a group. In a group here in Tucson that is affiliated with the Diamond Sangha of Robert Aitken Roshi, late, of Hawai'i, the matter of The greying of the sangha came up. Mmost of the affiliated sanghas began to look at it, and to think about it. The greying of the sangha as perceived during that time was/is the advancing average age of sangha members. It seemed that younger people just were not joining and not practicing. The sanghas were looking more and more like groups of old people. Perhaps there was a wave of people in the 1960s and 1970s Stateside who were influenced to become interested in formal Zen practice, and the greying perceived of late is essentially the Zen-baby-boom of practitioners which is now naturally aging, moving through the sangha(s). Perhaps conditions are not as favorable now for young people entering practice. On the other hand, we all know that it takes a certain maturity to sit Zen, and to keep at it. But the perceived greying is the perception of a REAL phenomenon: the predominant hair color in the 20 or so affiliate sanghas has become grey or white. It was not so earlier! The age of the average sangha member is still steadily increasing. I'm not involved in the said sangha any longer, so I am not actively looking for ways to change the greying phenomenon. I wonder if this greying is noted in other sanghas, elsewhere. --Joe / Arizona
Re: [Zen] Greying of the Sangha...
Merle, Thanks, I think that's right, and I love the spirit. But I once went to the 'Cello teacher Gordon Epperson to see about being his student, when I was 48. He was about 70. I asked him if 48 is too late to start on the instrument. He said, Not at all, and said that he has taught to students aged 15 to 90. I was impressed, and asked him, Oh, yes?, even a 90 year-old? And Gordon said, Yes; but for HIM it was too late! ;-) Poor Gordon himself passed away soon after his 85th birthday here in Tucson in 2006 (photo and obituary is at link below): http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue/2006/05/11/12161-obituary-cellist-gordon-epperson-was-rare-educator/ I also love the book by the amateur cellist, the late John Holt, NEVER TOO LATE -- MY MUSICAL LIFE STORY (1978): http://www.amazon.com/Never-Too-Late-Musical-Story/dp/0201567636/ref=sr_1_1?s=booksie=UTF8qid=1345403717sr=1-1keywords=never+too+late%2C+holt (great cover photo!). w/ Cheers, --Joe PS The comedian says: Where there's a will, there's a won't. Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: one is never too old for anything where there is a will there is a way...merle Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Greying of the Sangha...
good to hear..yes it is true the youngsters are taking part..after all how do we quieten the chattering mind?...how are we to improve the world?..sitting still and listening to the grasses growing is one answermerle Joe, When I used to sit in the Fremantle Zen Centre about 12 years ago, the average age seemed to be around late middle-age. In Japan, amongst the lay folk, it was a lot older. Since starting Vipassana at the Goenka retreats, the average age seems to range between the mid-20s to early 40s. I think there are a number of reasons for this. Firstly, the Goenka retreats have no religious overtones at all - not even a picture of the Buddha - and is promoted as a meditative technique only (for insight into the Dharma) . Although it could be argued that Zen Buddhism is not a religion, the prostrations to an icon of the Buddha/Kwannon etc can easily be interpreted as such by the inquisitive seeker. Also, 'entry' into Goenka practice begins with a 10 day retreat. It'd be highly unusual to begin Zen practice with an 8 day sesshin (one usually sits once a week for a number of weeks or months before undertaking a sesshin). As you know, the mind settles much better on retreat and many fruitful insights are attained this way. Given that there are many Goenka Vipassana centres all over the world (conducted for free), many younger travellers/back-packers spread, by word of mouth, news of the efficacy of vipassana as a meditation technique. Zen seems a lot more 'crusty' in comparison. Mike From: Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com To: Zen_Forum@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, 18 August 2012, 21:45 Subject: [Zen] Greying of the Sangha... Howdy, All, I don't know how many here sit regularly or occasionally with a Zen practice group -- a sangha -- and a teacher, but I have a general question which is a bit like a survey question for you, even if you don't sit with a group. In a group here in Tucson that is affiliated with the Diamond Sangha of Robert Aitken Roshi, late, of Hawai'i, the matter of The greying of the sangha came up. Mmost of the affiliated sanghas began to look at it, and to think about it. The greying of the sangha as perceived during that time was/is the advancing average age of sangha members. It seemed that younger people just were not joining and not practicing. The sanghas were looking more and more like groups of old people. Perhaps there was a wave of people in the 1960s and 1970s Stateside who were influenced to become interested in formal Zen practice, and the greying perceived of late is essentially the Zen-baby-boom of practitioners which is now naturally aging, moving through the sangha(s). Perhaps conditions are not as favorable now for young people entering practice. On the other hand, we all know that it takes a certain maturity to sit Zen, and to keep at it. But the perceived greying is the perception of a REAL phenomenon: the predominant hair color in the 20 or so affiliate sanghas has become grey or white. It was not so earlier! The age of the average sangha member is still steadily increasing. I'm not involved in the said sangha any longer, so I am not actively looking for ways to change the greying phenomenon. I wonder if this greying is noted in other sanghas, elsewhere. --Joe / Arizona
Re: [Zen] Greying of the Sangha...
that is the spirit joe..what is age..but for our mortal bodies?... our spirit is forever young forever free and timeless...enjoy your week..merle Merle, Thanks, I think that's right, and I love the spirit. But I once went to the 'Cello teacher Gordon Epperson to see about being his student, when I was 48. He was about 70. I asked him if 48 is too late to start on the instrument. He said, Not at all, and said that he has taught to students aged 15 to 90. I was impressed, and asked him, Oh, yes?, even a 90 year-old? And Gordon said, Yes; but for HIM it was too late! ;-) Poor Gordon himself passed away soon after his 85th birthday here in Tucson in 2006 (photo and obituary is at link below): http://tucsoncitizen.com/morgue/2006/05/11/12161-obituary-cellist-gordon-epperson-was-rare-educator/ I also love the book by the amateur cellist, the late John Holt, NEVER TOO LATE -- MY MUSICAL LIFE STORY (1978): http://www.amazon.com/Never-Too-Late-Musical-Story/dp/0201567636/ref=sr_1_1?s=booksie=UTF8qid=1345403717sr=1-1keywords=never+too+late%2C+holt (great cover photo!). w/ Cheers, --Joe PS The comedian says: Where there's a will, there's a won't. Merle Lester merlewiitpom@... wrote: one is never too old for anything where there is a will there is a way...merle
Re: [Zen] Greying of the Sangha...
organised religious practise is in decline in advanced industrial societies joe...and young folk have no time...they are working very long hours. ..what ever happened to the shorter working week?. ..they are literary flogged ...the quest for the dollar and material goods have become the mantra of this age.. .no longer to search for higher wisdom etc...it's all about the here and now and survival. ..that's how i see it ..young people's energies are taken up (the ones that think and care)..protesting about corporate greed and the destruction of rainforests etc.. . no one has time to sit and contemplate their navel..when the world is falling apart..climate change etc merle..still wolfing on...howl Howdy, All, I don't know how many here sit regularly or occasionally with a Zen practice group -- a sangha -- and a teacher, but I have a general question which is a bit like a survey question for you, even if you don't sit with a group. In a group here in Tucson that is affiliated with the Diamond Sangha of Robert Aitken Roshi, late, of Hawai'i, the matter of The greying of the sangha came up. Mmost of the affiliated sanghas began to look at it, and to think about it. The greying of the sangha as perceived during that time was/is the advancing average age of sangha members. It seemed that younger people just were not joining and not practicing. The sanghas were looking more and more like groups of old people. Perhaps there was a wave of people in the 1960s and 1970s Stateside who were influenced to become interested in formal Zen practice, and the greying perceived of late is essentially the Zen-baby-boom of practitioners which is now naturally aging, moving through the sangha(s). Perhaps conditions are not as favorable now for young people entering practice. On the other hand, we all know that it takes a certain maturity to sit Zen, and to keep at it. But the perceived greying is the perception of a REAL phenomenon: the predominant hair color in the 20 or so affiliate sanghas has become grey or white. It was not so earlier! The age of the average sangha member is still steadily increasing. I'm not involved in the said sangha any longer, so I am not actively looking for ways to change the greying phenomenon. I wonder if this greying is noted in other sanghas, elsewhere. --Joe / Arizona
Re: [Zen] Greying of the Sangha...
In my Sangha in Maryland, I was one of the youngest. In California, about half are younger than I. I am 44. If I may take a US centric perspective for a moment, I, and perhaps people my age and younger, find organizations dominated by baby boomers to be a bit insufferable. They have a way of talking that makes one think they are claiming credit for the civil rights movement, feminism, the spread of wisdom from Asia, environmentalism and so on, when we are seeing a legacy of giant SUVs, giant houses, bubbly markets, under funded schools and retirement programs, etc. A lot of sappy headed woo woo so called Buddhism has been promulgated by the people now in their sixties. Are we face to face with reality or our we trying to escape life via positive visualizations? Seems a lot of the baby boomers ditched their kids, made up comfortable religions that do not speak of any need to work hard, and then still sold out to the man, trashing the environment while being sanctimonius about tofu. Plus they were a big baby boom. There's not so many bodies in the later generations, outside of immigrants. But of course, we are grateful for feminism, environmentalism, and the wide variety of Zendos to be trained in. I sure as heck would not have wanted to raise my daughter in the fifties. The Dharma will endure. Face to face teaching will continue to be taught. On Aug 18, 2012 1:45 PM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Howdy, All, I don't know how many here sit regularly or occasionally with a Zen practice group -- a sangha -- and a teacher, but I have a general question which is a bit like a survey question for you, even if you don't sit with a group. In a group here in Tucson that is affiliated with the Diamond Sangha of Robert Aitken Roshi, late, of Hawai'i, the matter of The greying of the sangha came up. Mmost of the affiliated sanghas began to look at it, and to think about it. The greying of the sangha as perceived during that time was/is the advancing average age of sangha members. It seemed that younger people just were not joining and not practicing. The sanghas were looking more and more like groups of old people. Perhaps there was a wave of people in the 1960s and 1970s Stateside who were influenced to become interested in formal Zen practice, and the greying perceived of late is essentially the Zen-baby-boom of practitioners which is now naturally aging, moving through the sangha(s). Perhaps conditions are not as favorable now for young people entering practice. On the other hand, we all know that it takes a certain maturity to sit Zen, and to keep at it. But the perceived greying is the perception of a REAL phenomenon: the predominant hair color in the 20 or so affiliate sanghas has become grey or white. It was not so earlier! The age of the average sangha member is still steadily increasing. I'm not involved in the said sangha any longer, so I am not actively looking for ways to change the greying phenomenon. I wonder if this greying is noted in other sanghas, elsewhere. --Joe / Arizona Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Greying of the Sangha...
Chris, Thanks! Yes, average-age varies with sanghas; right. And with geographic locales, and with teachers, too, I find. When I started formally I was 27, and most of the others in the sangha were about the same age. It's because the teacher had JUST come from China, and word was spread about his presence in America (New York City) on college campuses in Religion departments, and through general announcement flyers posted on campuses. I was lucky to see one of the flyers at Columbia, in the Physics Department where I worked! The teacher was 50 when I started with him. He lived and taught for another 29 years. In various sanghas I stayed long in, usually the only thing doing or going on, thankfully, was the Dharma: I'm glad I didn't meet with groups such as you mention who were overly sanguine about environmental affairs or civil rights. Time-and- place! I mean, surely there's a place for Engaged Buddhism, but I never even liked the sound of that label. In general, though, I have nothing to say against Boomers, but nothing very much to say for them, either. I know too many of them too closely, to know that they're/we're nothing special. And, if they ARE special in some area (great artist, teacher, Yogi, or scientist), then they are ordinary in other areas, or even deficient in some. Well, a bit like all of us, and like everybody before us! You might say it's the human condition. ;-) I don't let myself off this same hook, either, mind you. California seems a natural place where sanghas will always be young, Chris. Anyway, I hope it is always so. And I hope the old folks stick with it and bring a good example for the young ones joining. Teachers say -- sometimes lamenting -- that A teacher gets the students he/she DESERVES. We don't always get to choose. Maybe it's partly karma. If I am to be a teacher, I think I'd much rather teach to quite young people: the way I teach is pretty physical, and I think older people are usually not ready for this. Younger people competently take it as more of a challenge that they can accept and work with, and can get results pretty soon with, to keep them going. With older folk, some remedial building-up needs doing, if the person is to take well to our sort of practice, and vice-versa. It's serious! Health takes time to regain, if it's had a chance to slide. In our teaching, Posture is a big thing; Exercises; Self-massage; and some special Yoga exercises. Plus, extended periods of slow Prostrations. This is *not* the Japanese way of teaching, but comes through my teacher from China, Sheng Yen. It is wonderful, but not merely-wonderful: it is a practical wonder, when a student can begin it and continue it. I hope I can still teach this to young people well into my 90s... as well as to continue to practice it myself. Chris, I think you are too old to start at age 44. It may be the over-the-hill-gang for *YOU*, Old Man! ;-) No, we find really that it is all up to the practitioner. Sheng Yen had people with him who were always older than he was at any time, though they might not have been newcomers. Ah, but you have a sangha and teacher. Already blessed! Strong practice, Thanks again, Cheers, --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: In my Sangha in Maryland, I was one of the youngest. In California, about half are younger than I. Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links * To visit your group on the web, go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/ * Your email settings: Individual Email | Traditional * To change settings online go to: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Zen_Forum/join (Yahoo! ID required) * To change settings via email: zen_forum-dig...@yahoogroups.com zen_forum-fullfeatu...@yahoogroups.com * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: zen_forum-unsubscr...@yahoogroups.com * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to: http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [Zen] Greying of the Sangha...
not all baby boomers are goody goodies...some fell through the net and behave very badly as does your generation mr. 44 merle In my Sangha in Maryland, I was one of the youngest. In California, about half are younger than I. I am 44. If I may take a US centric perspective for a moment, I, and perhaps people my age and younger, find organizations dominated by baby boomers to be a bit insufferable. They have a way of talking that makes one think they are claiming credit for the civil rights movement, feminism, the spread of wisdom from Asia, environmentalism and so on, when we are seeing a legacy of giant SUVs, giant houses, bubbly markets, under funded schools and retirement programs, etc. A lot of sappy headed woo woo so called Buddhism has been promulgated by the people now in their sixties. Are we face to face with reality or our we trying to escape life via positive visualizations? Seems a lot of the baby boomers ditched their kids, made up comfortable religions that do not speak of any need to work hard, and then still sold out to the man, trashing the environment while being sanctimonius about tofu. Plus they were a big baby boom. There's not so many bodies in the later generations, outside of immigrants. But of course, we are grateful for feminism, environmentalism, and the wide variety of Zendos to be trained in. I sure as heck would not have wanted to raise my daughter in the fifties. The Dharma will endure. Face to face teaching will continue to be taught. On Aug 18, 2012 1:45 PM, Joe desert_woodwor...@yahoo.com wrote: Howdy, All, I don't know how many here sit regularly or occasionally with a Zen practice group -- a sangha -- and a teacher, but I have a general question which is a bit like a survey question for you, even if you don't sit with a group. In a group here in Tucson that is affiliated with the Diamond Sangha of Robert Aitken Roshi, late, of Hawai'i, the matter of The greying of the sangha came up. Mmost of the affiliated sanghas began to look at it, and to think about it. The greying of the sangha as perceived during that time was/is the advancing average age of sangha members. It seemed that younger people just were not joining and not practicing. The sanghas were looking more and more like groups of old people. Perhaps there was a wave of people in the 1960s and 1970s Stateside who were influenced to become interested in formal Zen practice, and the greying perceived of late is essentially the Zen-baby-boom of practitioners which is now naturally aging, moving through the sangha(s). Perhaps conditions are not as favorable now for young people entering practice. On the other hand, we all know that it takes a certain maturity to sit Zen, and to keep at it. But the perceived greying is the perception of a REAL phenomenon: the predominant hair color in the 20 or so affiliate sanghas has become grey or white. It was not so earlier! The age of the average sangha member is still steadily increasing. I'm not involved in the said sangha any longer, so I am not actively looking for ways to change the greying phenomenon. I wonder if this greying is noted in other sanghas, elsewhere. --Joe / Arizona Current Book Discussion: any Zen book that you recently have read or are reading! Talk about it today!Yahoo! Groups Links
Re: [Zen] Greying of the Sangha...
one is never too old for anything where there is a will there is a way...merle Chris, Thanks! Yes, average-age varies with sanghas; right. And with geographic locales, and with teachers, too, I find. When I started formally I was 27, and most of the others in the sangha were about the same age. It's because the teacher had JUST come from China, and word was spread about his presence in America (New York City) on college campuses in Religion departments, and through general announcement flyers posted on campuses. I was lucky to see one of the flyers at Columbia, in the Physics Department where I worked! The teacher was 50 when I started with him. He lived and taught for another 29 years. In various sanghas I stayed long in, usually the only thing doing or going on, thankfully, was the Dharma: I'm glad I didn't meet with groups such as you mention who were overly sanguine about environmental affairs or civil rights. Time-and- place! I mean, surely there's a place for Engaged Buddhism, but I never even liked the sound of that label. In general, though, I have nothing to say against Boomers, but nothing very much to say for them, either. I know too many of them too closely, to know that they're/we're nothing special. And, if they ARE special in some area (great artist, teacher, Yogi, or scientist), then they are ordinary in other areas, or even deficient in some. Well, a bit like all of us, and like everybody before us! You might say it's the human condition. ;-) I don't let myself off this same hook, either, mind you. California seems a natural place where sanghas will always be young, Chris. Anyway, I hope it is always so. And I hope the old folks stick with it and bring a good example for the young ones joining. Teachers say -- sometimes lamenting -- that A teacher gets the students he/she DESERVES. We don't always get to choose. Maybe it's partly karma. If I am to be a teacher, I think I'd much rather teach to quite young people: the way I teach is pretty physical, and I think older people are usually not ready for this. Younger people competently take it as more of a challenge that they can accept and work with, and can get results pretty soon with, to keep them going. With older folk, some remedial building-up needs doing, if the person is to take well to our sort of practice, and vice-versa. It's serious! Health takes time to regain, if it's had a chance to slide. In our teaching, Posture is a big thing; Exercises; Self-massage; and some special Yoga exercises. Plus, extended periods of slow Prostrations. This is *not* the Japanese way of teaching, but comes through my teacher from China, Sheng Yen. It is wonderful, but not merely-wonderful: it is a practical wonder, when a student can begin it and continue it. I hope I can still teach this to young people well into my 90s... as well as to continue to practice it myself. Chris, I think you are too old to start at age 44. It may be the over-the-hill-gang for *YOU*, Old Man! ;-) No, we find really that it is all up to the practitioner. Sheng Yen had people with him who were always older than he was at any time, though they might not have been newcomers. Ah, but you have a sangha and teacher. Already blessed! Strong practice, Thanks again, Cheers, --Joe Chris Austin-Lane chris@... wrote: In my Sangha in Maryland, I was one of the youngest. In California, about half are younger than I.
