Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
> From the web page it looks like this is a card that goes into the > computer system. That's not very useful for enterprise applications, > as they are going to want to use an external array that can be used > by a redundant pair of servers. The DDRdrive X1 does utilize a half-length/full-height/two-slot PCIe plug-in card form factor. So for systems such as the Sun Storage 7310/7410, we are not a solution. Sun does offer a Write Flash Accelerator (Logzilla) to satisfy both single and clustered controller configurations. Our intention is to provide enterprise customers (non-clustered) an additional option. Thanks, Christopher George Founder/CTO www.ddrdrive.com -- This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
On Mon, Jan 18, 2010 at 8:48 PM, Charles Hedrick wrote: > From the web page it looks like this is a card that goes into the computer > system. That's not very useful for enterprise applications, as they are > going to want to use an external array that can be used by a redundant pair > of servers. > > I'm very interested in a cost-effective device that will interface to two > systems. > > That's called an SSD in a SAS array. -- --Tim ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
>From the web page it looks like this is a card that goes into the computer >system. That's not very useful for enterprise applications, as they are going >to want to use an external array that can be used by a redundant pair of >servers. I'm very interested in a cost-effective device that will interface to two systems. -- This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
On Fri, Jan 15, 2010 at 2:07 AM, Christopher George wrote: >> Why not enlighten EMC/NTAP on this then? > > On the basic chemistry and possible failure characteristics of Li-Ion > batteries? > > I will agree, if I had system level control as in either example, one could > definitely help mitigate said risks compared to selling a card based > product where I have very little control over the thermal envelopes I am > subjected. > >> Could you please elaborate on the last statement, provided you meant >> anything beyond "UPS is a power-backup standard"? > > Although, I do think the discourse is healthy and relevant. At this point, I > am comfortable to agree to disagree. I respect your point of view, and do Same on my side. I don't object to your design decision, my objection was to the negative advertisement wrt another design. Good luck with beta and beyond. Regards, Andrey > agree strongly that Li-Ion batteries play a critical and highly valued role in > many industries. > > Thanks, > > Christopher George > Founder/CTO > www.ddrdrive.com > -- > This message posted from opensolaris.org > ___ > zfs-discuss mailing list > zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org > http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss > ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
On 1/13/10 9:51 AM, Christopher George wrote: The DDRdrive X1 OpenSolaris device driver is now complete, please join us in our first-ever ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) beta test program. A select number of X1s are available for loan, preferred candidates would have a validation background and/or a true passion for torturing new hardware/driver :-) We are singularly focused on the ZIL device market, so a test environment bound by synchronous writes is required. The beta program will provide extensive technical support and a unique opportunity to have direct interaction with the product designers. Would you like to take part in the advancement of Open Storage and explore the far-reaching potential of ZFS based Hybrid Storage Pools? If so, please send an inquiry to "zfs at ddrdrive dot com". The drive for speed, Christopher George Founder/CTO www.ddrdrive.com *** Special thanks goes out to SUN employees Garrett D'Amore and James McPherson for their exemplary help and support. Well done! I'd like to say thanks for putting a price point somewhere on your website, so many people with new products make the mistake of thinking it is important to withhold that info from potential customers. I get vendors calling or wanting to meet without giving a price range. I tell them - "We don't have to meet - If it costs $15,000 I don't want any, if it is $1,000 I'll take one, if it is $100 I'll take 12..." ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 5:07 PM, Christopher George wrote: >> Why not enlighten EMC/NTAP on this then? > > On the basic chemistry and possible failure characteristics of Li-Ion > batteries? > > I will agree, if I had system level control as in either example, one could > definitely help mitigate said risks compared to selling a card based > product where I have very little control over the thermal envelopes I am > subjected. > >> Could you please elaborate on the last statement, provided you meant >> anything beyond "UPS is a power-backup standard"? > > Although, I do think the discourse is healthy and relevant. At this point, I > am comfortable to agree to disagree. I respect your point of view, and do > agree strongly that Li-Ion batteries play a critical and highly valued role in > many industries. > > Thanks, > Congratulations Christopher - great product - and I'm sure that this will be the first of a family of products for you! Personally I like the simplicity of the design and the lack of a battery to worry about. This is a great addition to any ZFS installation ... :) Regards, -- Al Hopper Logical Approach Inc,Plano,TX a...@logical-approach.com Voice: 972.379.2133 Timezone: US CDT OpenSolaris Governing Board (OGB) Member - Apr 2005 to Mar 2007 http://www.opensolaris.org/os/community/ogb/ogb_2005-2007/ ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
> Personally I'd say it's a must. Most DC's I operate in wouldn't tolerate > having a card separately wired from the chassis power. May I ask the list, if this is a hard requirement for anyone else? Please email me directly "cgeorge at ddrdrive dot com". Thank you, Christopher George Founder/CTO www.ddrdrive.com -- This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
> I see nothing in the design that precludes a customer from using a > Li-Ion battery, if they so desire. Perhaps the collective has forgotten > that DC power is one of the simplest and most widespread interfaces > around? :-) Richard, Very good point! We have already had a request for the DC jack to be unpopulated so that an internal power source could be utilized. We will make this modification available to any customer who asks. Thanks, Christopher George Founder/CTO www.ddrdrive.com -- This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
> "dd" == David Dyer-Bennet writes: dd> I'm pretty sure the insides of my camera batteries and such dd> are "standard parts" at that level; but it doesn't do me any dd> good. I don't know how to find the sources for those parts, dd> be sure I'm right, and fake up replacements. the way how is to go to sparkfun.com where you can download schematics and buy assembled reference designs for charging single-cell lipol batteries, as well as the batteries themselves in a variety of sizes. The schematic for the charger is given, and there's no circuitry inside the batteries. HTH. dd> (Also there are serviceability issues if I mess about inside dd> and later need manufacturer service.) what the? I do not udnerstand. yeah, if you make something yourself in the garage, then you can still have manufacturer service, but you are the manufacturer now so that would be self-service. Are you talking about your camera now or about the slog? The idea was to have Christopher's company put the battery into their product, so there is still just one manufacturer and no finger-pointing: the batteries are not yet proprietary when you buy them at sparkfun. dd> So I'm stuck paying for expensive proprietary batteries. for your camera, yes, got it. what does that have to do with suggesting a battery belongs next to the DRAM, not external, for an internal pcie slog? The OP was Christopher, saying he chose a batteryless design because lipol is among other things ``proprietary'', yet experimenters and cheap consumer electronics have been using it for almost a decade, and there are cheapo charging chips from linear devices or microchip or whatever that include experience-tested protocols for avoiding flames (yes agreed writing your own charging software would be risky), and chinese oem may well just design it for you. I mean srsly I have friends using these batteries and could probably put the battery on myself so what sort of person am I paying to make this thing for me if li-ion/lipol is this great scary proprietary deep-FUDpool mystery to them? so...you know...give us a real reason plz, not a punt-and-blame-the-sysadmin design with no battery, thanks. pgpmcvFgiW49S.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 5:22 PM, Richard Elling wrote: > On Jan 14, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Christopher George wrote: > > >> That's kind of an overstatement. NVRAM backed by on-board LI-Ion > >> batteries has been used in storage industry for years; > > > > Respectfully, I stand by my three points of Li-Ion batteries as they > relate > > to enterprise class NVRAM: ignition risk, thermal wear-out, and > > proprietary design. As a prior post stated, there is a dearth of > published > > failure statistics of Li-Ion based BBUs. > > > >> I can easily point out a company that has shipped tens of > >> thousands of such boards over last 10 years. > > > > No argument here, I would venture the risks for consumer based Li-Ion > > based products did not become apparent or commonly accepted until > > the user base grew several orders of magnitude greater than "tens of > > thousands". > > > > For the record, I agree there is a marked convenience with an integrated > > high energy Li-Ion battery solution - but at what cost? > > I see nothing in the design that precludes a customer from using a > Li-Ion battery, if they so desire. Perhaps the collective has forgotten > that DC power is one of the simplest and most widespread interfaces > around? :-) > > So it boils down to packaging. I personally dislike having batteries > all over the place, and I've seen dozens of customers who never > pay attention to the battery status on their systems. However, for > future design considerations, an optional internal energy mount > can keep the wolves at bay. > -- richard > > Personally I'd say it's a must. Most DC's I operate in wouldn't tolerate having a card separately wired from the chassis power. It's far, far, far more likely to have a tech knock that power cord out and not have anyone notice than to have a battery spontaneously combust. My .02. -- --Tim ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
Very interesting product indeed! Given the volume one of these cards take up inside the server though, I couldn't help but think that 4GB is a bit on the low side. Alex. On Wed, Jan 13, 2010 at 5:51 PM, Christopher George wrote: > The DDRdrive X1 OpenSolaris device driver is now complete, > please join us in our first-ever ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) beta test > program. A select number of X1s are available for loan, > preferred candidates would have a validation background > and/or a true passion for torturing new hardware/driver :-) > > We are singularly focused on the ZIL device market, so a test > environment bound by synchronous writes is required. The > beta program will provide extensive technical support and a > unique opportunity to have direct interaction with the product > designers. > > Would you like to take part in the advancement of Open > Storage and explore the far-reaching potential of ZFS > based Hybrid Storage Pools? > > If so, please send an inquiry to "zfs at ddrdrive dot com". > > The drive for speed, > > Christopher George > Founder/CTO > www.ddrdrive.com > > *** Special thanks goes out to SUN employees Garrett D'Amore and > James McPherson for their exemplary help and support. Well done! > -- > This message posted from opensolaris.org > ___ > zfs-discuss mailing list > zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org > http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss > ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
On Jan 14, 2010, at 11:02 AM, Christopher George wrote: >> That's kind of an overstatement. NVRAM backed by on-board LI-Ion >> batteries has been used in storage industry for years; > > Respectfully, I stand by my three points of Li-Ion batteries as they relate > to enterprise class NVRAM: ignition risk, thermal wear-out, and > proprietary design. As a prior post stated, there is a dearth of published > failure statistics of Li-Ion based BBUs. > >> I can easily point out a company that has shipped tens of >> thousands of such boards over last 10 years. > > No argument here, I would venture the risks for consumer based Li-Ion > based products did not become apparent or commonly accepted until > the user base grew several orders of magnitude greater than "tens of > thousands". > > For the record, I agree there is a marked convenience with an integrated > high energy Li-Ion battery solution - but at what cost? I see nothing in the design that precludes a customer from using a Li-Ion battery, if they so desire. Perhaps the collective has forgotten that DC power is one of the simplest and most widespread interfaces around? :-) So it boils down to packaging. I personally dislike having batteries all over the place, and I've seen dozens of customers who never pay attention to the battery status on their systems. However, for future design considerations, an optional internal energy mount can keep the wolves at bay. -- richard > We chose an external solution because it is a proven and industry > standard method of enterprise class data backup. > > Thanks, > > Christopher George > Founder/CTO > www.ddrdrive.com > -- > This message posted from opensolaris.org > ___ > zfs-discuss mailing list > zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org > http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
> Why not enlighten EMC/NTAP on this then? On the basic chemistry and possible failure characteristics of Li-Ion batteries? I will agree, if I had system level control as in either example, one could definitely help mitigate said risks compared to selling a card based product where I have very little control over the thermal envelopes I am subjected. > Could you please elaborate on the last statement, provided you meant > anything beyond "UPS is a power-backup standard"? Although, I do think the discourse is healthy and relevant. At this point, I am comfortable to agree to disagree. I respect your point of view, and do agree strongly that Li-Ion batteries play a critical and highly valued role in many industries. Thanks, Christopher George Founder/CTO www.ddrdrive.com -- This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
On Thu, January 14, 2010 14:34, Miles Nordin wrote: >> "cg" == Christopher George writes: > cg> inflexible proprietary nature of Li-Ion > > You can get complete systems with charging microcontroller and battery > without any undue encumbrances I can detect on sparkfun.com. What's > ``proprietary'' mean in this context? I'm pretty sure the insides of my camera batteries and such are "standard parts" at that level; but it doesn't do me any good. I don't know how to find the sources for those parts, be sure I'm right, and fake up replacements. (Also there are serviceability issues if I mess about inside and later need manufacturer service.) So I'm stuck paying for expensive proprietary batteries. When I look at something I'm buying for serious use, I consider that sort of thing. If it doesn't say something like "Takes a Foobar (or equivalent) mumble-76-x3" (or if I can't find sources for what it says it takes), that's a point against it. -- David Dyer-Bennet, d...@dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/ Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/ Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/ Dragaera: http://dragaera.info ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 10:02 PM, Christopher George wrote: >> That's kind of an overstatement. NVRAM backed by on-board LI-Ion >> batteries has been used in storage industry for years; > > Respectfully, I stand by my three points of Li-Ion batteries as they relate > to enterprise class NVRAM: ignition risk, thermal wear-out, and > proprietary design. As a prior post stated, there is a dearth of published > failure statistics of Li-Ion based BBUs. Why not enlighten EMC/NTAP on this then? > >> I can easily point out a company that has shipped tens of >> thousands of such boards over last 10 years. > > No argument here, I would venture the risks for consumer based Li-Ion > based products did not become apparent or commonly accepted until > the user base grew several orders of magnitude greater than "tens of > thousands". > > For the record, I agree there is a marked convenience with an integrated > high energy Li-Ion battery solution - but at what cost? Um, with Li-Ion battery in each and every of a billions of cell phones out there ... > > We chose an external solution because it is a proven and industry > standard method of enterprise class data backup. Could you please elaborate on the last statement, provided you meant anything beyond "UPS is a power-backup standard"? Regards, Andrey > > Thanks, > > Christopher George > Founder/CTO > www.ddrdrive.com > -- > This message posted from opensolaris.org > ___ > zfs-discuss mailing list > zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org > http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss > ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
> "cg" == Christopher George writes: cg> I agree, it would be very informative if RAID HBA vendors cg> would publish failure statistics of their Li-Ion based BBU cg> products. If they haven't, then on what are you basing your decision *not* to use one? Just the random thought that they might fail? cg> inflexible proprietary nature of Li-Ion You can get complete systems with charging microcontroller and battery without any undue encumbrances I can detect on sparkfun.com. What's ``proprietary'' mean in this context? cg> the ignition risk, thermal wear-out, and the inflexible cg> proprietary nature of Li-Ion solutions simply outweigh the cg> benefits of internal or all inclusive mounting for enterprise cg> bound NVRAM. well...for *HOME* use based on the failure modes I've observed I'd prefer to keep the battery next to the SDRAM like ACARD and LSI do. for the enterprise, someone should warn netapp/hitachi/emc/storagetek who are presumably Lion based nvram users. One thing on which I can agree: if the vendor has used Lion it's hard to tell if the implementation is proper, ex whether it will warn of an aged battery without enough capacity. For slog, IMHO the ideal behavior would be: 1. weekly test-flushes to CF or USBstick or whatever is the NAND backing-store 2. the device should shut itself off, as if SATA cable were pulled, or in some other way ZFS detects instantly, if the battery's not got capacity left after the test flush completes. One way would be to require *two* consecutive successful test flushes each week. 3. there should be a button you can press to simulate the battery-failure-powerdown behavior, so you can test that ZFS and your controller respond properly. 4. ``redundant'' power should mean the device has (1) power from host, and (2) enough stored energy in the battery to do two consecutive flushes. Whenever the device does not have ``redundant'' power, it should: a. disable itself as in (3) b. flush SDRAM to NAND. This means, if the device's battery is exhausted, the system may boot with the device disconnected. The host will have to suport hotplug so the slog can come back after the battery charges. so, (2) is really a special case of (4). and AIUI Lion will last longer if you don't charge it to 100%. laptops usually want 100% because they compete on mAh/kg at initial purchase, but for this application charging to 70% should be fine which from what I heard will make them last a lot longer before crystalizing. cg> can detect not only a disconnect but any loss of power. In cg> all cases, the card throws an interrupt so that the device cg> driver (and ultimately user space) can be immediately cg> notified. We need to look at the overall system, though. Does a ZFS system using the card disable the slog when this happens? or does it just print a warning in dmesg and do nothing? When you're using a LSI BBU, the disks behind the controller have their write cahce disabled. so, if you evil-tune ZFS to skip issuing SYNC CACHE, but then the BBU dies and becomes write-through, the overall system is still safe (albeit slow). Also what you describe still doesn't seem to detect the failure case you brought up yourself, of a worn-out battery. UPS's do test their batteries, but ones with worn-out batteries enter bypass mode, they don't turn themselves off, which seems to be the only way your card would have to hear a warning. cg> attaching/detaching the external power cable has no effect on cg> data integrity as long as the host is powered on. In other words, as long as you don't trip over both cables at once. :( Does the device partially obey my (4) and immediately flush to NAND when the host is powered off? or does it keep the data in SDRAM only for as long as possible, until told to do otherwise by ``the user'' or something? pgptaCigYmnol.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
> That's kind of an overstatement. NVRAM backed by on-board LI-Ion > batteries has been used in storage industry for years; Respectfully, I stand by my three points of Li-Ion batteries as they relate to enterprise class NVRAM: ignition risk, thermal wear-out, and proprietary design. As a prior post stated, there is a dearth of published failure statistics of Li-Ion based BBUs. > I can easily point out a company that has shipped tens of > thousands of such boards over last 10 years. No argument here, I would venture the risks for consumer based Li-Ion based products did not become apparent or commonly accepted until the user base grew several orders of magnitude greater than "tens of thousands". For the record, I agree there is a marked convenience with an integrated high energy Li-Ion battery solution - but at what cost? We chose an external solution because it is a proven and industry standard method of enterprise class data backup. Thanks, Christopher George Founder/CTO www.ddrdrive.com -- This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
> Is there any data out there that have tracked these sort of ignition > incidents? I have to admit I'd never heard of this. We have quite a > few BBU backed RAID controllers in our servers and I've never had > anything remotely like this occur. I know anecdotal evidence is > meaningless, but this definitely surprised me a little. I agree, it would be very informative if RAID HBA vendors would publish failure statistics of their Li-Ion based BBU products. > My gut tells me the risk of this is pretty low and most are going to > prefer the convenience of an onboard BBU to installing UPS'es in all > their racks (as good a practice as that may be). Again I agree, I am not recommending, nor did I mean to allude, that to be the proper and/or preferred solution for RAID controllers. To my knowledge, the mAh requirements of a DDRdrive X1 class product cannot be supported by any of the BBUs currently found on RAID controllers. It would require either a substantial increase in energy density or a decrease in packaging volume both of which incur additional risks. > Interesting product though! Thanks, Christopher George Founder/CTO www.ddrdrive.com -- This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
On Thu, 14 Jan 2010, Ray Van Dolson wrote: My gut tells me the risk of this is pretty low and most are going to prefer the convenience of an onboard BBU to installing UPS'es in all their racks (as good a practice as that may be). Other than the spontaneous combustion issue (which was heavily covered by the press a couple of years ago, and resulted in many product recalls), it seems that the main advantage of using external power is to avoid needing to shut down the server and open the chassis if a battery goes bad. Most servers are not designed to be serviced in this way while they remain running. Bob -- Bob Friesenhahn bfrie...@simple.dallas.tx.us, http://www.simplesystems.org/users/bfriesen/ GraphicsMagick Maintainer,http://www.GraphicsMagick.org/ ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Christopher George wrote: >> I'm not sure about others on the list, but I have a dislike of AC power >> bricks in my racks. > > I definitely empathize with your position concerning AC power bricks, but > until the perfect battery is created, and we are far from it, it comes down to > tradeoffs. I personally believe the ignition risk, thermal wear-out, and the > inflexible proprietary nature of Li-Ion solutions simply outweigh the benefits > of internal or all inclusive mounting for enterprise bound NVRAM. That's kind of an overstatement. NVRAM backed by on-board LI-Ion batteries has been used in storage industry for years; I can easily point out a company that has shipped tens of thousands of such boards over last 10 years. Regards, Andrey > >> Is the state of the power input exposed to software in some way? In >> other terms, can I have a nagios check running on my server that >> triggers an alert if the power cable accidentally gets pulled out? > > Absolutely, the X1 monitors the external supply and can detect not only a > disconnect but any loss of power. In all cases, the card throws an interrupt > so that the device driver (and ultimately user space) can be immediately > notified. The X1 does not rely on external power until the host power drops > below a certain threshold, so attaching/detaching the external power cable > has no effect on data integrity as long as the host is powered on. > >> OK, which means that the UPS must be separate to the UPS powering >> the server then. > > Correct, a dedicated (in this case redundant) UPS is expected. > >> Any plans on a pci-e multi-lane version then? > > Not at this time. In addition to the reduced power and thermal output, the > PCIe x1 connector has the added benefit of not competing with other HBA's > which do require a x4 or x8 PCIe connection. > > Very appreciative of the feedback! > > Christopher George > Founder/CTO > www.ddrdrive.com > -- > This message posted from opensolaris.org > ___ > zfs-discuss mailing list > zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org > http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss > ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
On Thu, Jan 14, 2010 at 12:35:32AM -0800, Christopher George wrote: > > I'm not sure about others on the list, but I have a dislike of AC power > > bricks in my racks. > > I definitely empathize with your position concerning AC power bricks, but > until the perfect battery is created, and we are far from it, it comes down to > tradeoffs. I personally believe the ignition risk, thermal wear-out, and the > inflexible proprietary nature of Li-Ion solutions simply outweigh the benefits > of internal or all inclusive mounting for enterprise bound NVRAM. Is there any data out there that have tracked these sort of ignition incidents? I have to admit I'd never heard of this. We have quite a few BBU backed RAID controllers in our servers and I've never had anything remotely like this occur. I know anecdotal evidence is meaningless, but this definitely surprised me a little. My gut tells me the risk of this is pretty low and most are going to prefer the convenience of an onboard BBU to installing UPS'es in all their racks (as good a practice as that may be). Gut isn't the best to go on of course, which is why I'm interested in seeing some statistics on this sorta thing... Interesting product though! Ray ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
> I'm not sure about others on the list, but I have a dislike of AC power > bricks in my racks. I definitely empathize with your position concerning AC power bricks, but until the perfect battery is created, and we are far from it, it comes down to tradeoffs. I personally believe the ignition risk, thermal wear-out, and the inflexible proprietary nature of Li-Ion solutions simply outweigh the benefits of internal or all inclusive mounting for enterprise bound NVRAM. > Is the state of the power input exposed to software in some way? In > other terms, can I have a nagios check running on my server that > triggers an alert if the power cable accidentally gets pulled out? Absolutely, the X1 monitors the external supply and can detect not only a disconnect but any loss of power. In all cases, the card throws an interrupt so that the device driver (and ultimately user space) can be immediately notified. The X1 does not rely on external power until the host power drops below a certain threshold, so attaching/detaching the external power cable has no effect on data integrity as long as the host is powered on. > OK, which means that the UPS must be separate to the UPS powering > the server then. Correct, a dedicated (in this case redundant) UPS is expected. > Any plans on a pci-e multi-lane version then? Not at this time. In addition to the reduced power and thermal output, the PCIe x1 connector has the added benefit of not competing with other HBA's which do require a x4 or x8 PCIe connection. Very appreciative of the feedback! Christopher George Founder/CTO www.ddrdrive.com -- This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
Thanks for the detailed response - further questions inline... Christopher George wrote: Excellent questions! I see the PCI card has an external power connector - can you explain how/why that's required, as opposed to using an on card battery or similar. DDRdrive X1 ZIL functionality is best served with an external attached UPS, this allows the X1 to perform as a non-volatile storage device without specific user configuration or unique operation. An often overlooked aspect of batteries (irrespective of technology or internal/external) is their limited lifetime and varying degrees of maintenance and oversight required. For example, a lithium (Li-Ion) battery supply, as used by older NVRAM products and not the X1, does have the minimum required energy density for an internal solution. But has a fatal flaw for enterprise applications - an ignition mode failure possibility. Google "lithium battery fire". Such an instance, even if rare, would be catastrophic not only to the on-card data but the host server and so on... Supercapacitors are another alternative which thankfully do not share the ignition mode failure mechanism of Li-Ion, but are hampered mainly by cost with some longevity concerns which can be addressed. In the end, we selected data integrity, cost, and serviceability as our top three priorities. This led us to the industry standard external lead-acid battery as sold by APC. Key benefits of the DDRdrive X1 power solution: 1) Data Integrity - Supports multiple back-to-back power failures, a single DDRdrive X1 uses less than 5W when the host is powered down, even a small UPS is over-provisioned and unlike an internal solution will not normally require a lengthy recharge time prior to the next power incident. Optionally a backup to NAND can be performed to remove the UPS duration as a factor. 2) Cost Effective / Flexible - The Smart-UPS SC 450VA (280 Watts) is an excellent choice for most installations and retails for approximately $150.00. Flexibility is in regard to UPS selection, as it can be right-sized (duration) for each individual application if needed. 3) Reliability / Maintenance - UPS front panel LED status for battery replacement and audible alarms when battery is low or non-operational. Industry standard battery form factor backed by APC the industry leading manufacture of enterprise-class backup solutions. OK, I take your point about battery fires, however we've been using battery backed cards (of various types) in servers for a while now, and I think you might have over over-emphasized those risks, when compared to the operational complexity of maintaining a separate power circuit for my PCI cards! But then, I haven't actually done the research on battery reliability either. :-) I'm not sure about others on the list, but I have a dislike of AC power bricks in my racks. Sometimes they're unavoidable, but they're also physically awkward - where do we put them? Using up space on a dedicated shelf? Cable tied to the rack itself? Hidden under the floor? Is the state of the power input exposed to software in some way? In other terms, can I have a nagios check running on my server that triggers an alert if the power cable accidentally gets pulled out? What happens if the *host* power to the card fails? Nothing, the DDRdrive X1's data integrity is guaranteed by the attached UPS. OK, which means that the UPS must be separate to the UPS powering the server then. The 155mb rate for sustained writes is low for DDR ram? The DRAM's value add is it's extremely low latency (even compared to NAND) and other intrinsic properties such as longevity and reliability. The read/write sequential bandwidth is completely bound by the PCI Express interface. Any plans on a pci-e multi-lane version then? All my servers are still Gig-E, and I'm not likely to see more than 100MB/sec of NFS traffic, however I'm sure there are plenty of NFS servers on 10G out there that will see quite a bit more than 155MB/sec for moderate amounts of time. I know we can put more than one of these cards in a server, but those slots are often taken up with other things! I look forward to these being available in Australia :-) Thanks, Tristan ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
> "cg" == Christopher George writes: cg> Nothing, the DDRdrive X1's data integrity is guaranteed by the cg> attached UPS. I've found UPS power is less reliable than unprotected line power where I live, especially when using bargain UPS's like the ones you suggest. I've tracked it for five years, and that's simply the case. When devices have dual power inputs I do plug one into the UPS though. I've also found unplanned powerdowns usually occur during maintenance because of people tripping over cords (networking equipment likes to put A/B power on opposite sides of the chassis. Thanks for that, to those who do it.), dropping things, bumping power strip switches (which should not exist in the first place), provoking crappy devices (ex poweron surges causing overcurrent), mucking around with the batteries, or confusing highly-stupid UPS microcontrollers over their buggy web interfaces (``reset controller''), clumsy buttonpads (a single on/off/test button? are you *CRAZY*? and sometimes I have to _hold the button down_? What next, double-pressing? there's on, there's off, but what about the ``off-but-charging'' state: how's it requested and how's it confirmed? hazily? thanks, assholes.). Your decision to use UPS power is based on the imaginary scenario you walk us through: building loses line power for X minutes, UPS runs out. Obviously I'm familiar with the scenario but honestly I've not run into that one in practice as often as other ones, which is why I call it fantasy. cg> NAND only provides an optional (user configured) cg> backup/restore feature. so, it does not even attempt to query the UPS? How can it live up to the ideally-functioning-UPS protection scheme you describe, then? To do so it needs UPS communication: it'd need to NAND-backup before the battery ran out, so it needs to get advance warning of a low battery from the UPS. It'd also need a way to halt the computer, or at least to take itself offline and propogate the error up the driver stack, if the UPS has not enough charge to complete a NAND backup or of the UPS considers its batteries defective. Personally, I don't care if the card talks to the UPS, because I think realistically if you take the cases when power stops coming out of a UPS and overlap them with the cases when the UPS provided warning before the power stopped coming out, there's not much overlap. Spurious warnings and sudden shutdowns are *more* common over the life of the units I've had than this imaginary graceful powerdown scenario. Finally, data that's stored ``durably'' needs to survive yanked cables. IMHO most people who are certain cables will never be yanked or are willing to take the risk, would be better off just disabling the ZIL rather than using a slog. Then you don't have to worry about pools failing to import from missing slog if you do yank a cable, which is a better tradeoff. NAND storage therefore needs to be self-contained, like a disk drive, to be useful as a slog. The ANS-9010 comes closer to that than this card, though I don't know if it actually delivers, either. pgpEQSwbNLlEe.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
Excellent questions! > I see the PCI card has an external power connector - can you explain > how/why that's required, as opposed to using an on card battery or > similar. DDRdrive X1 ZIL functionality is best served with an external attached UPS, this allows the X1 to perform as a non-volatile storage device without specific user configuration or unique operation. An often overlooked aspect of batteries (irrespective of technology or internal/external) is their limited lifetime and varying degrees of maintenance and oversight required. For example, a lithium (Li-Ion) battery supply, as used by older NVRAM products and not the X1, does have the minimum required energy density for an internal solution. But has a fatal flaw for enterprise applications - an ignition mode failure possibility. Google "lithium battery fire". Such an instance, even if rare, would be catastrophic not only to the on-card data but the host server and so on... Supercapacitors are another alternative which thankfully do not share the ignition mode failure mechanism of Li-Ion, but are hampered mainly by cost with some longevity concerns which can be addressed. In the end, we selected data integrity, cost, and serviceability as our top three priorities. This led us to the industry standard external lead-acid battery as sold by APC. Key benefits of the DDRdrive X1 power solution: 1) Data Integrity - Supports multiple back-to-back power failures, a single DDRdrive X1 uses less than 5W when the host is powered down, even a small UPS is over-provisioned and unlike an internal solution will not normally require a lengthy recharge time prior to the next power incident. Optionally a backup to NAND can be performed to remove the UPS duration as a factor. 2) Cost Effective / Flexible - The Smart-UPS SC 450VA (280 Watts) is an excellent choice for most installations and retails for approximately $150.00. Flexibility is in regard to UPS selection, as it can be right-sized (duration) for each individual application if needed. 3) Reliability / Maintenance - UPS front panel LED status for battery replacement and audible alarms when battery is low or non-operational. Industry standard battery form factor backed by APC the industry leading manufacture of enterprise-class backup solutions. > What happens if the *host* power to the card fails? Nothing, the DDRdrive X1's data integrity is guaranteed by the attached UPS. > The 155mb rate for sustained writes is low for DDR ram? The DRAM's value add is it's extremely low latency (even compared to NAND) and other intrinsic properties such as longevity and reliability. The read/write sequential bandwidth is completely bound by the PCI Express interface. > Is this because the backup to NAND is a constant thing, rather than only > at power fail? No, the backup to NAND is not continual. All Host IO is directed to DRAM for maximum performance while the NAND only provides an optional (user configured) backup/restore feature. Christopher George Founder/CTO www.ddrdrive.com -- This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
That's very interesting tech you've got there... :-) I have a couple of questions, with apologies in advance if I missed them on the website.. I see the PCI card has an external power connector - can you explain how/why that's required, as opposed to using an on card battery or similar. What happens if the power to the card fails? The 155mb rate for sustained writes is low for DDR ram? Is this because the backup to NAND is a constant thing, rather than only at power fail? Regards Tristan Christopher George wrote: The DDRdrive X1 OpenSolaris device driver is now complete, please join us in our first-ever ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) beta test program. A select number of X1s are available for loan, preferred candidates would have a validation background and/or a true passion for torturing new hardware/driver :-) We are singularly focused on the ZIL device market, so a test environment bound by synchronous writes is required. The beta program will provide extensive technical support and a unique opportunity to have direct interaction with the product designers. Would you like to take part in the advancement of Open Storage and explore the far-reaching potential of ZFS based Hybrid Storage Pools? If so, please send an inquiry to "zfs at ddrdrive dot com". The drive for speed, Christopher George Founder/CTO www.ddrdrive.com *** Special thanks goes out to SUN employees Garrett D'Amore and James McPherson for their exemplary help and support. Well done! ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
Hi Adam, So was FW aware of this or in contact with these guys? Also are you requesting/ordering any of these cards to evaluate? The device seems kind of small at 4GB, and uses a double wide PCI Express slot. Neil. On 01/13/10 12:27, Adam Leventhal wrote: Hey Chris, The DDRdrive X1 OpenSolaris device driver is now complete, please join us in our first-ever ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) beta test program. A select number of X1s are available for loan, preferred candidates would have a validation background and/or a true passion for torturing new hardware/driver :-) We are singularly focused on the ZIL device market, so a test environment bound by synchronous writes is required. The beta program will provide extensive technical support and a unique opportunity to have direct interaction with the product designers. Congratulations! This is great news for ZFS. I'll be very interested to see the results members of the community can get with your device as part of their pool. COMSTAR iSCSI performance should be dramatically improved in particular. Adam -- Adam Leventhal, Fishworkshttp://blogs.sun.com/ahl ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
Re: [zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
Hey Chris, > The DDRdrive X1 OpenSolaris device driver is now complete, > please join us in our first-ever ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) beta test > program. A select number of X1s are available for loan, > preferred candidates would have a validation background > and/or a true passion for torturing new hardware/driver :-) > > We are singularly focused on the ZIL device market, so a test > environment bound by synchronous writes is required. The > beta program will provide extensive technical support and a > unique opportunity to have direct interaction with the product > designers. Congratulations! This is great news for ZFS. I'll be very interested to see the results members of the community can get with your device as part of their pool. COMSTAR iSCSI performance should be dramatically improved in particular. Adam -- Adam Leventhal, Fishworkshttp://blogs.sun.com/ahl ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
[zfs-discuss] New ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) device available - Beta program now open!
The DDRdrive X1 OpenSolaris device driver is now complete, please join us in our first-ever ZFS Intent Log (ZIL) beta test program. A select number of X1s are available for loan, preferred candidates would have a validation background and/or a true passion for torturing new hardware/driver :-) We are singularly focused on the ZIL device market, so a test environment bound by synchronous writes is required. The beta program will provide extensive technical support and a unique opportunity to have direct interaction with the product designers. Would you like to take part in the advancement of Open Storage and explore the far-reaching potential of ZFS based Hybrid Storage Pools? If so, please send an inquiry to "zfs at ddrdrive dot com". The drive for speed, Christopher George Founder/CTO www.ddrdrive.com *** Special thanks goes out to SUN employees Garrett D'Amore and James McPherson for their exemplary help and support. Well done! -- This message posted from opensolaris.org ___ zfs-discuss mailing list zfs-discuss@opensolaris.org http://mail.opensolaris.org/mailman/listinfo/zfs-discuss
