Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
On a lighter side of discussion, just for fun and humor I took my little electronic device to the bishop one day and told him I had the gold plates for the triple combination and promptly showed him my electronic computer wherein was displayed one line of my triple combination. It was meant to be funny but who knows if the plates really looked something like that. Stacy. At 09:25 PM 11/06/2002 -0700, you wrote: I Nephi 13 says that the brass plates were *not* the same as what we would call the OT, actually. Furthermore, it says that the G&BC in the days following Christ removed plain and precious parts from the *Gospel*, not the Pentateuch. By the time we get to verse 29 it does also include the OT, but it merely says that the G&BC would take away plain and precious parts, it doesn't say that what they had up to that point was pristine, or the brass plates would not have been a superset of the OT (see verse 23). I Nephi 14 further explains that Nephi was forbidden to write certain things -- including, e.g., the Apocalypse of John (Revelation). I would point to things like the Johannine Comma as an example of verse 28. That doesn't preclude earlier changes. Did Moses also write the part about his own burial? Did he also contradict himself on the number of animals taken aboard the ark? I realize that some brethren have assumed that Moses was the literal author of the Pentateuch, but that is not necessarily doctrine. For instance, in this last January's Ensign, in an article called "Enjoying the Old Testament," we read, "1. The books of Genesis through Deuteronomy are historical books, sometimes called the law. They are also called the five books of Moses because Moses wrote or spoke much of what is in them. These books tell us of the history of the earth as the Lord revealed it to Moses. Genesis begins with the Creation of the world and Adam and Eve. Deuteronomy finishes at the end of Moses life." Note that it leaves the door open by saying "Moses wrote OR spoke MUCH OF WHAT IS IN THEM". Also, the Josian Reform occurred 20 years *before* Lehi left Jerusalem. Here, for those who have interest in exploring the topic further, is what the EoM says under "Biblical Scholarship": Bible Scholarship Latter-day Saints recognize Bible scholarship and intellectual study of the biblical text. Joseph Smith and his associates studied Greek and Hebrew and taught that religious knowledge is to be obtained by study as well as by faith (D&C 88:118). However, Latter-day Saints prefer to use Bible scholarship rather than be driven or controlled by it. The Prophet Joseph Smith suggested certain broad parameters for any LDS critical study of the Bible: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God" (A of F 8). Because Latter-day Saints prefer prophets to scholars as spiritual guides, and the inspiration of scripture and the Holy Ghost to the reasoning of secondary texts, Bible scholarship plays a smaller role in LDS spirituality than it does in some denominations. A fundamental operating principle of "revealed" religions is that all truth cannot be completely discovered through human reason alone. Without God's aid, no one can obtain the vital data, proper perspectives, and interpretive keys for knowing him (see -->Reason and Revelation). Because Latter-day Saints believe that their religion is revealed through living prophets of God, they subordinate human reason to revealed truth.In this latter connection, Latter-day Saints show some affinities with contemporary conservative Roman Catholic and evangelical Bible scholarship. They accept and use most objective results of Bible scholarship, such as linguistics, history, and archaeology, while rejecting many of the discipline's naturalistic assumptions and its more subjective methods and theories. In those instances where Bible scholarship and revealed religion conflict, Latter-day Saints hold to interpretations of the Bible that appear in the other LDS scriptures and in the teachings of latter-day prophets. These observations suggest three basic operating principles for Bible scholarship among Latter-day Saints: 1. Approaches to the Bible must accept divine inspiration and revelation in the original biblical text: it presents the word of God and is not a merely human production. Therefore, any critical methodology that implicitly or explicitly ignores or denies the significant involvement of God in the biblical text is rejected. With minor exceptions, such as the Song of Solomon, which Joseph Smith judged not to be inspired (cf. IE 18 [Mar. 1915]:389), the text is not to be treated in an ultimately naturalistic manner. God's participation is seen to be significant both in the events themselves and in the process of their being recorded. His activity is thus one of the effects to be reckoned with in interpreting the events and in under
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
My point still holds even if they are no longer in Afghanistan. Why are we moving on? Stacy. At 09:30 PM 11/06/2002 -0700, you wrote: My original point was to ask why the US was so obsessed with Iraq when Pakistan presents a greater danger. And there's more to it than saying they were put into power by the "people of Pakistan." It was the Pakistani government plus extremist clerics, using US taxpayer dollars, who put the Taliban into power. This is Manuel Noriega all over again. Jon Spencer wrote: > Who objected to Marc's obvious statement? The Taliban was put in power by > people in Pakistan. > > This is a real "Duh!". By the way, are you advocating that we attack > Pakistan first, and THEN Iraq? I have a better idea. First, we'll attack > Israel - that will completely fool the fake Islamists and we can sneak in a > sucker punch at both Pakistan and Iraq when they are still in shock. France > can come next. > > Jon > > John W. Redelfs wrote: > > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,2763,834287,00.html > > > > It looks like Marc may be vindicated in his predictions that the Taliban > > will come to power in Pakistan. Why we are planning a war against Iraq > > when the Taliban is coming to power in a nation that already has nuclear > > weapons is a complete mystery to me. > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950) Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
I've read some of the higher criticism and don't really appreciate or like it. Stacy. At 10:51 PM 11/06/2002 -0700, you wrote: There was, in the most recent conference, a reference to the Pentateuch (although not by that name) as being by Moses, or written according to what had been passed down to him, so we already know that the Bible wasn't inerrant and hasn't come to us as originally revealed by God -- that's pretty clear doctrine. I think where people get in a tizzy is over some of the modern critical tools some Biblical scholars use, roughly although inaccurately known as higher criticism. To the extent that HC seeks to de-spiritualize the Bible it is clearly wrong, but several GAs such as John Widstoe and B. H. Roberts pointed out that we can make a lot of use of the technique. I like the way Kevin L. Barney, a well-known LDS apologist, put it in his article. I'm going to give a link to a draft of this (I need to clean it up cosmetically, as it's up there basically how my scanner scanned it), and say that I like his approach. But one needs to read the *whole* article -- if you only read parts you're in danger of coming away with an incorrect impression. http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/B/doc_hyp.htm And that's all I'll say on the matter. As the history of BYU has shown, as soon as these tools are introduced to those students who are not yet equipped to handle them properly, some of them lose their faith. And I'd hate to be the means of that happening here to anyone. Also, here's one of Widstoe's tract used in the European Mission in the 1920s, 30s and 40s. He had 20 tracts, written by various GAs, but the authors' names are not on the tracts, so we don't know who actually wrote this. They were used to standardize discussions with non-members and are the precursors of today's formal discussions. But this particular explains that technique and results are two different things: The Bible Centennial Series-Nineteen Origin The results of all sound scholarship are welcomed by Latter-day Saints. Higher criticism is not excluded. To us, however, the most certain fact, the best authenticated and the most demonstrable, is the existence of God. This knowledge can not be laid aside in any human research, especially in Biblical investigation. >From the beginning of the human race the Lord has spoken to and inspired his children on earth. Truth has been among men from the first day. He thus speaks and inspires men today. At various times men have been moved upon to commit to writing the eternal truths revealed to them pertaining to man's existence. Thus have come the holy scriptures. The Text The scriptures have been given by God and under his direction; but in the language of man. It has always been so. In this day, the Lord speaking to Joseph Smith said, "These commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding." That is, the Lord does his work in our behalf through earthly instruments. Naturally, therefore in outside form there may be many errors, but in inner substance the eternal truth is preserved for those who can read the language understandingly. This doctrine has been stated in unusual beauty by Moroni, one of the prophets of the Book of Mormon. "Thou hast also made our words powerful and great even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words." In such manner has come the text of the scriptures. As these early manuscripts, before the days of printing, were copied by hand, often by unbelievers who did not respect the text, errors and changes crept in. When we say we believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it has been translated correctly, we refer to all changes, in all transcriptions and translations, back to the very original manuscripts. The Church, therefore, is in full harmony with the avowed purpose of the higher critics. Preservation The scriptures contain the most precious truths of humanity. They give the most complete exposition of God's law for human conduct and destiny. Without them, the earth would be poor indeed.It was part of the purpose under which man dwells on earth that the plan of salvation, with its included principles, should be revealed to men from the beginning. The scriptures are as a gift from God. They not only contain the story of man's own devices; but of the dealings of the Lord with his earthly children. Thus our Father in heaven is better understood. Accepting the existence of God, and the doctrine that the gospel truths were deliberately taught to men, it can not be believed that the Lord would allow these precious gifts to be wholly lost, and thus leave the children of men at any time without a witness for him. Throughout the ages, therefore, amidst all the vicissitudes of time, the holy
Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of "malleable truth"
Maybe not so rhetorical as really sarcastic. Stacy. At 01:49 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote: We didn't want to upset the UN, now, did we? Actually, we did have an agreement with Iraq to implement full inspections, and he did agree to get rid of all of the Iraqi WoMM, although I can't tell you why we believed him. But certainly, we can't now. We are now more concerned because he has had quite some time to implement more weapons outside of our ability to inspect, and he has quite a bit of money to do so, given the trade he has with our European "allies" in the UN. But this was a rhetorical question, wasn't it? Of course, no one here on this list, including myself, can tell you what will be the short and long term outcome of acting or not acting. I believe that he is a continuing threat to our way of life, along with quite a few other gangsters. Others believe otherwise. Jon Stacy Smith wrote: > The thing that gets me is this: If we're all of a sudden so concerned > about Saddam's nuclear and biological weapons abilities, why weren't we as > concerned in 1992? / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of "malleable truth"
We didn't want to upset the UN, now, did we? Actually, we did have an agreement with Iraq to implement full inspections, and he did agree to get rid of all of the Iraqi WoMM, although I can't tell you why we believed him. But certainly, we can't now. We are now more concerned because he has had quite some time to implement more weapons outside of our ability to inspect, and he has quite a bit of money to do so, given the trade he has with our European "allies" in the UN. But this was a rhetorical question, wasn't it? Of course, no one here on this list, including myself, can tell you what will be the short and long term outcome of acting or not acting. I believe that he is a continuing threat to our way of life, along with quite a few other gangsters. Others believe otherwise. Jon Stacy Smith wrote: > The thing that gets me is this: If we're all of a sudden so concerned > about Saddam's nuclear and biological weapons abilities, why weren't we as > concerned in 1992? / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
There's so much bathwater I'm drowning in it! Stacy. At 03:34 PM 11/05/2002 -0700, you wrote: John: I think we are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bath water when we start labeling as figurative those things that might be literally true. And we need to remember that just because something is symbolism, doesn't mean that is not also literally true. Literal facts can serve as symbols. Dan: There is equal danger in labeling figurative items as literal. John: / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of "malleable truth"
The thing that gets me is this: If we're all of a sudden so concerned about Saddam's nuclear and biological weapons abilities, why weren't we as concerned in 1992? Stacy. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
There was, in the most recent conference, a reference to the Pentateuch (although not by that name) as being by Moses, or written according to what had been passed down to him, so we already know that the Bible wasn't inerrant and hasn't come to us as originally revealed by God -- that's pretty clear doctrine. I think where people get in a tizzy is over some of the modern critical tools some Biblical scholars use, roughly although inaccurately known as higher criticism. To the extent that HC seeks to de-spiritualize the Bible it is clearly wrong, but several GAs such as John Widstoe and B. H. Roberts pointed out that we can make a lot of use of the technique. I like the way Kevin L. Barney, a well-known LDS apologist, put it in his article. I'm going to give a link to a draft of this (I need to clean it up cosmetically, as it's up there basically how my scanner scanned it), and say that I like his approach. But one needs to read the *whole* article -- if you only read parts you're in danger of coming away with an incorrect impression. http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/B/doc_hyp.htm And that's all I'll say on the matter. As the history of BYU has shown, as soon as these tools are introduced to those students who are not yet equipped to handle them properly, some of them lose their faith. And I'd hate to be the means of that happening here to anyone. Also, here's one of Widstoe's tract used in the European Mission in the 1920s, 30s and 40s. He had 20 tracts, written by various GAs, but the authors' names are not on the tracts, so we don't know who actually wrote this. They were used to standardize discussions with non-members and are the precursors of today's formal discussions. But this particular explains that technique and results are two different things: The Bible Centennial Series-Nineteen Origin The results of all sound scholarship are welcomed by Latter-day Saints. Higher criticism is not excluded. To us, however, the most certain fact, the best authenticated and the most demonstrable, is the existence of God. This knowledge can not be laid aside in any human research, especially in Biblical investigation. >From the beginning of the human race the Lord has spoken to and inspired his children on earth. Truth has been among men from the first day. He thus speaks and inspires men today. At various times men have been moved upon to commit to writing the eternal truths revealed to them pertaining to man's existence. Thus have come the holy scriptures. The Text The scriptures have been given by God and under his direction; but in the language of man. It has always been so. In this day, the Lord speaking to Joseph Smith said, "These commandments are of me, and were given unto my servants in their weakness, after the manner of their language, that they might come to understanding." That is, the Lord does his work in our behalf through earthly instruments. Naturally, therefore in outside form there may be many errors, but in inner substance the eternal truth is preserved for those who can read the language understandingly. This doctrine has been stated in unusual beauty by Moroni, one of the prophets of the Book of Mormon. "Thou hast also made our words powerful and great even that we cannot write them; wherefore, when we write we behold our weakness, and stumble because of the placing of our words; and I fear lest the Gentiles shall mock at our words." In such manner has come the text of the scriptures. As these early manuscripts, before the days of printing, were copied by hand, often by unbelievers who did not respect the text, errors and changes crept in. When we say we believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it has been translated correctly, we refer to all changes, in all transcriptions and translations, back to the very original manuscripts. The Church, therefore, is in full harmony with the avowed purpose of the higher critics. Preservation The scriptures contain the most precious truths of humanity. They give the most complete exposition of God's law for human conduct and destiny. Without them, the earth would be poor indeed.It was part of the purpose under which man dwells on earth that the plan of salvation, with its included principles, should be revealed to men from the beginning. The scriptures are as a gift from God. They not only contain the story of man's own devices; but of the dealings of the Lord with his earthly children. Thus our Father in heaven is better understood. Accepting the existence of God, and the doctrine that the gospel truths were deliberately taught to men, it can not be believed that the Lord would allow these precious gifts to be wholly lost, and thus leave the children of men at any time without a witness for him. Throughout the ages, therefore, amidst all the vicissitudes of time, the holy scriptures have been preserved, and though mutilated by careless men, they yet bear amid their human imperfections and errors, the message of God's nature a
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
If a testimony is only based on how often the Lord can get me to follow Him, then I could be in trouble not because of God but because of my stubborn will. How do I know I'm not at fault? My testimony never alone rests on my puny experience. Stacy. At 05:50 PM 11/05/2002 -0600, you wrote: >A testimony should never rest on whether or not the sea actually parted >a'la Charlton Heston, but on how willing and capable He is in helping you >succeed in following His commandments. Hmmm. How about the Jaredites and their incredible floating barges? Could they be nothing but a faith promoting story along with other stories from the mistranslated bible? Frankly, there are stories in the Book of Mormon that I find hard to believe. I accept them all on faith just as I do the stories from the mistranslated Bible. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
I appreciate your correction of my misreading, and you are right. There is no "old" Pakistani government. It's not a democracy, but has always been controlled by the military, even when civilian leaders are in power. And I was clear to point out that it was a Cold War event -- that's my point. Short-term interests have unforeseen long-term consequences. What was sown during the Cold War is being reaped today. I think you meant to refer to southern Afghanistan, rather than southern Pakistan? Southern Pakistan consists of partly of Baluchistan and of Sindh. Sindh is hardly a hotbed of islamic fundamentalism, but the parts of Baluchistan which border Afghanistan are. The worst problem is in the Northwest Frontier Province and the so-called tribal areas, along the Afghan border. Jon Spencer wrote: > Oh boy! An exciting day to turn the tables! I did not say "people of > Pakistan." Rather, I said "people in Pakistan," not thinking it necessary > to offer a long and boring recital of what we all already know. > > When you say it was the Pakistani gov't with US money who put the Taliban in > place, you imply something that isn't true. It was the OLD Pakistani gov't, > of which remnants remain in power, but most have been purged. It was also a > cold war era event. > > Things have changed. The "people IN Pakistan" who put the Taliban in place > come primarily from the south, where trouble still boils. The cold war is > over. Power vacuums come and go, and so thugs will come and go. > > The fact is that it is difficult to watch everyplace in the world, so that > errors can and do occur, and people with hidden agendas can get away (for a > while) with their mischiefs. It is easy to hide in the frozen north and > pontificate on things which will not directly affect you, especially when > (in your frozen north case) you depend upon the citizens of the US to defend > you. It is not so easy when you live next to one of the top targets in the > world for a terrorist's attack. (I had to get in at least ONE ad homonem > attack, since people on this list are so fond of them, and at least one > personal ownership issue. And yet, both statements have a lot of truth in > them ... :-) > > And, if you haven't noticed, Manny is in jail. And Clinton gave the Panama > Canal to the Chinese. So, some problems have been rectified, and others > have not yet been rectified. > > Jon > > Marc A. Schindler wrote: > > My original point was to ask why the US was so obsessed with Iraq when > Pakistan > presents a greater danger. And there's more to it than saying they were put > into > power by the "people of Pakistan." It was the Pakistani government plus > extremist > clerics, using US taxpayer dollars, who put the Taliban into power. > > This is Manuel Noriega all over again. > > Jon Spencer wrote: > > > Who objected to Marc's obvious statement? The Taliban was put in power by > > > people in Pakistan. > > > > This is a real "Duh!". By the way, are you advocating that we attack > > Pakistan first, and THEN Iraq? I have a better idea. First, we'll attack > > Israel - that will completely fool the fake Islamists and we can sneak in > a > > sucker punch at both Pakistan and Iraq when they are still in shock. > France > > can come next. > > > > Jon > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950) Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
What are we to do if our talents are being hindered?
Stacy.
At 07:58 PM 11/05/2002 -0700, you wrote:
This is true. Each has their own challenges, opportunities, talents, gifts and
assignments in life. This is what I get from what Paul says in I
Corinthians 13.
YOUR challenge and MY challenge are to use those to the best of our
advantage. I
learned a very interesting lesson recently. I've been going through a
great deal
of physical pain due to some neurological problems (among other things I had a
blood clot on the brain, between the surface and the lining of the brain,
called a
subdural haematoma, which they say is one of the most painful things a
person can
experience, along with childbirth and kidney stones). A neuropsychologist
(who is
a diagnostician, not a counsellor) told me that I would probably have this
difficulty, due to brain damage in the parietal pre-frontal lobe of my
brain, for
quite some time, and I had to learn to separate pain itself, which I can't do
anything about (beyond analgaesic relief) and "suffering" which he defined
as my
reaction to pain. He told me to take more "social risks" and if I have a
seizure
in public, well, so what of it? Other people's reaction to it is their
problem.
Now let's turn that around. If you have a talent, you have a responsibility to
magnify it. Other people, who may not have that talent, should not envy
you for
it, but should be glad for you, and should not react negatively when you
succeed
in that area. We put a lot of barriers in our own way, and often attempt
to put
barriers in other people's lives, too. Don't let anyone put barriers in
your way.
And what I've said goes for Gary, too. I'm sure I'm not telling any of you
anything you don't already know, but this is by way of encouragement.
Stacy Smith wrote:
> Not all of us are required to prove theories.
>
> Stacy.
>
> At 03:55 PM 11/04/2002 -0900, you wrote:
>
> >After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with:
> >>No, it is postulating a theory. Once a theory is set out for all to read,
> >>then it is up to the rest of us to disprove the theory by testing it
> >>against known evidences. That does not yet make it a fact, as future
> >>evidence can always refute a theory. Without theories, we would not
> >>advance in science or knowledge. The danger comes when we convince
> >>ourselves that a theory is a fact, when in fact, it isn't.
> >
> >So basically what you are saying is that I can forward any way out weird
> >theory, maybe like something that Velikovsky or von Daniken might write,
> >and the burden of proof is on us to use evidence to showing how wrong
> >headed my theory is.
> >
> >I disagree that a person can responsibly postulate a theory and then
> >expect it to be accepted unless someone can disprove it. Even a theory
> >needs to be supported with some kind of evidence. Otherwise it isn't even
> >a theory, just a wild speculation.
> >
> >John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >===
> >You know what would make a good story? Something
> >about a clown who make people happy, but inside he's
> >real sad. Also, he has severe diarrhea. --Jack Handy
> >===
> >All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
> >
> >///
//
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> >///
//
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---
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>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade;
character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we
dont want
a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
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Re: [ZION] Bible vs the Scientists
Gary Smith wrote: > John, > The difference is that we have many GAs who have told us that portions of > the Bible ARE symbolic. That leaves the Bible's historicity at least > partially in question. Meanwhile, they have all told us that the BoM is > literal. Signaturi don't want to believe that any scripture is > historically based. We believe all of the BoM is, and much (if not most) > of the Bible is. Marc and I are consistent with what the GAs have taught > on these books. We haven't stated definitively that Joshua never was at > Jericho, but only that there are discrepancies with current science. Furthermore, I would add that it doesn't matter. Brigham Young referred to "baby stories" in the Bible, assuming that there is a more transcendent way of understanding them than as mere history. > This > allows all to look at the evidence and make up their own mind with all > the current facts. I don't ask anyone to stop believing in the Global > Flood or Jericho's walls. I only ask them to consider other ways of > interpreting a book that we have been told has symbolism in some of its > stories. > > K'aya K'ama, > Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www > .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html > "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - > Johann Wolfgang von Goethe > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950) Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] sealed portion
No, but we know they're there, and that because they're sealed, that we don't have them. Therefore it's automatically part of the redaction question. It implies to me that some day we *will* have them, which of course will mean that our current BoM is not the same as what will some day be our BoM. I think this happened in ancient times all the time, as per I Nephi 13 -- the identity of what exactly was on the brass plates is never made clear except to say that it apparently contained more than what we now have from the OT. Gary Smith wrote: > Wow! So I take it Marc, that you've also had a peek at the sealed portion > of the BoM??? > > K'aya K'ama, > Garyihah "I'm famous, you pukes!" Smithgszion1 @juno.com > http://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html > "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - > Johann Wolfgang von Goethe > > Marc: > Note, too, that the redaction process is explicit in the BoM: we have the > Large > Plates of Nephi, the Small Plates of Nephi, the record of the Jaredites, > the > Mulekites, and we have a whole line of keepers of the records, some of > whom only > added a token item such as "Behold, I Garyihah, have received these > plates and > have verily not the foggiest notion what do with them, so I bequeath them > unto my > bright nephew, Johnihah and hope he hath better luck" > [tongue-in-cheek, > naturally] to the great redactors of Nephi, Mormon and Moroni, some of > whom > claimed that they could only record "a hundredth part" of what they > wanted to. > Some History 101. > > > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > > Only $9.95 per month! > > Visit www.juno.com > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950) Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] scriptures are not secular?
Matter is not empty. Recently it was discovered that Einstein was right concerning the cosmological constant that maintains the universe spreading out at an ever increasing speed. This means there is an invisible force that acts on all matter. I think LDS would call this the Light of Christ, which fills all space (DC 93). K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: Now if matter is so... empty, if we are really just a mass of whirling atomic and subatomic particles, then anyone with the requisite faith can literally move mountains just by wishing them elsewhere. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] sealed portion
Wow! So I take it Marc, that you've also had a peek at the sealed portion of the BoM??? K'aya K'ama, Garyihah "I'm famous, you pukes!" Smithgszion1 @juno.com http://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: Note, too, that the redaction process is explicit in the BoM: we have the Large Plates of Nephi, the Small Plates of Nephi, the record of the Jaredites, the Mulekites, and we have a whole line of keepers of the records, some of whom only added a token item such as "Behold, I Garyihah, have received these plates and have verily not the foggiest notion what do with them, so I bequeath them unto my bright nephew, Johnihah and hope he hath better luck" [tongue-in-cheek, naturally] to the great redactors of Nephi, Mormon and Moroni, some of whom claimed that they could only record "a hundredth part" of what they wanted to. Some History 101. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Bible vs the Scientists
John, The difference is that we have many GAs who have told us that portions of the Bible ARE symbolic. That leaves the Bible's historicity at least partially in question. Meanwhile, they have all told us that the BoM is literal. Signaturi don't want to believe that any scripture is historically based. We believe all of the BoM is, and much (if not most) of the Bible is. Marc and I are consistent with what the GAs have taught on these books. We haven't stated definitively that Joshua never was at Jericho, but only that there are discrepancies with current science. This allows all to look at the evidence and make up their own mind with all the current facts. I don't ask anyone to stop believing in the Global Flood or Jericho's walls. I only ask them to consider other ways of interpreting a book that we have been told has symbolism in some of its stories. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR:I didn't say anything about Signaturi. I don't think you or anyone else on this list is a Signaturi, or I would have booted you off years ago. But to suggest that something must be symbolism instead of literal just because one cannot come up with a naturalistic explanation is EXACTLY what the Signaturi do when they deny the historicity of the Book of Mormon. Forced to choose between belief and man's logic, they equivocate. They try to straddle a fence that is a razor blade. If they can't explain it in scientific terms, they just say it is a figure of speech and that it doesn't matter as long as the divine principle was communicated. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] antigravity
It is also called the cosmological constant that Einstein came up with, then later considered his biggest error. It was discovered recently when we found out that the universe is not only still expanding, but it is expanding at an increasing speed. Previously, it was believed to be expanding at an ever decreasing speed as one would expect from a universe impacted by gravity and distance. I believe that this invisible constant is what we call the Light of Christ, which fills the immensity of space (DC 93). K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] scriptures are not secular?
Originally it was written by Moses. However, we do not know how many iterations it has gone through since then. How often was it translated and retranslated by Jewish scribes. Which version was found by Josiah's people in the temple? There were different versions of ancient writings, depending on whether a person was from Judah or Israel, for example. We have what are now considered the written traditions of J and E (Jehovah and Elohim). Some LDS scholars suggest that the Brass Plates of Laban may have been the "E" source, as it would have come from the land of Israel and speaks of prophets that were concentrated there. Instead of pushing the law of Moses and the Yahwist/Jehovah-ist belief system, it tends toward the Elohim belief system: high places and altars for worship, personal revelations to individuals rather than a societal religion that imposes revelation on the individuals, etc. Both Hezekiah and Josiah tried changing the Yahwist religion into one of centralized temple worship, removing all other places of worship. Meanwhile, the nation of Israel/Ephraim stayed loyal to the ancient tradition of high places and altars (like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob used), and building two specific altars with gold calves. I have surmised through my studies that these calves may have been representative of Elohim, who like Baal, was represented by a bull anciently (power, reproductive ability, etc). While much of ancient Israel believed Jehovah and Elohim had a consort (female wife), later Yahwists rejected this idea. So there were many ideas floating around. All of these beliefs found their way into the Bible, with only the Yahwist belief, modified by a later Priestly form, strongly surviving into the post-Babylonian exile period. After 500 BC, the prophets were based on a temple-centric religion and taught from that form. Christ and his apostles actually broke somewhat from the Yahwist format, returning to the ancient form (Christ praying in the wilderness, infrequent visits to the temple except for Passover, Mount of Transfiguration, etc). So, it is as complicated as Marc puts it. Interestingly, the BoM supports the idea of it being complicated. The Brass Plates show another version of the scriptures, with additional prophets (Zenos, Zenoc, etc) and a different viewpoint (Joseph vs Judah). Lehi and Jeremiah also preach against the Yahwist religion of the day. Jeremiah praises the Rekhabites, a tribe of Israelites that lived in the wilderness and worshiped as the ancients did, and condemns the way temple worship turned out. We see this same thing occur with the Dead Sea Scrolls, as their Teacher of Righteousness condemns the False/Wicked Priest for usurping the priesthood and temple authority. They go to the wilderness to worship in purity. I see a trendthat continues today. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: Deuteronomy was written by Moses, just as the rest of the Pentateuch was. It was not part of a "strange and complex historical soup." --JWR Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Bible vs the Scientists
And I believe the literalism of the BoM and most of the Bible, also. However, I also realize there are mistakes in the Bible that even GAs have admitted to. This means we accept the stories to be true, as best as we can understand them. Yet we realize that the record is not perfect, and the day may come when we find that some of the stories are not literal events. When an event of the Bible shows up in the BoM or D&C, I use that as evidence of its actuality. Whether Joshua caused the walls to tumble down in Jericho has little to do with my faith, as my faith isn't built on whether that one particular miracle occurred or not. Rather it is on whether those ancient prophets taught truths, especially about Jesus Christ and his gospel. The scriptures aren't a lie. However, the Bible isn't perfect, either. It was written by people who constantly were in apostasy. Apostates often take the writings of dead people and twist them to fit their beliefs (just ask any average Christian today what they believe, and how the Bible supports it, and why they reject modern prophets). And yes, the scientists make mistakes too. They have some false conclusions. I realize this. I don't readily accept their theories out of hand. But I don't reject them out of hand, either, without looking at all the evidence and consider all sides closely first. The Bible suggests an earth-centric universe, and a flat earth. The scientist Galileo almost lost his life over fighting the biblicists on that one. yet who ended up right, the Bible or science? We don't think of the four corners of the earth today as meaning the literal four corners. But that's what ancient Jews believed because of the OT's writings. It was this same ideology that prevented scientific discovery for centuries, because if the bible said it (or people interpreted it in a certain way) then it had to be that way. Aren't we thankful for science in these instances. If it weren't for Columbus rejecting the flat earth theory of the Bible, then America wouldn't have been discovered and we wouldn't have had a free nation upon which the Lord could restore the gospel K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe JWR: Sorry, but in my book, this kind of reasoning just won't cut it. Admittedly there is symbolism in the Bible. There is symbolism in the Book of Mormon, too. But there really was a Father Lehi, and there really were Nephites and Lamanites. And it matters very much to me whether or not the God of the Old Testament parted the Red Sea, or Jesus Christ and Peter literally walked on water. If they didn't, then the scriptures are a lie, and I might just as well chuck all this religion stuff. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel
Yes, we are. We at least must prove them sufficiently to ourselves in order for us to accept them. What is one plus one? The majority will say "two." Why? Because we accept the theorem, based upon evidence that it works for us. Do you and I believe in the BoM? Yes. Why? Because we have tested it against the evidence of the Holy Ghost. Though your text book told you about biology, you still cut into that frog in class. Why? To prove the statements in the book that a frog does have heart, lungs, etc. Each time you turn on a light switch, you do it with faith, because you have previously tested the theory that it will normally turn on the light. When the light doesn't come on, then new theories appear: the bulb is broken, the power is out, the wiring is messed up, etc. To get this fixed, we must test each possible answer until the evidence points us to the correct one. IN other words, we test theories out each and every day. Most are on things that are not earth shattering. But they are theories, nonetheless. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: Not all of us are required to prove theories. Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Gethsemane
Another thought on Gethsemane. Most Christians believe Christ prayed in the Garden of Gethsemane. However, there is evidence that he may have actually done it in the Cave of Gethsemane. On the Mount of Olives, in Gethsemane is a winepress in a cave. During the oil pressing season it is very busy making olive oil from the trees on the Mount. However, in the spring, it was often used as a place for travelers to stay. In Mark, where the man (Mark himself) was found by the Roman soldiers in a blanket, and runs off naked, it suggests someone who was sleeping. What better place than the cave? Is it possible Christ prayed in a corner of the cave, and then left it to meet with Judas Iscariot and the soldiers? I think so. Another thought: rather than sleeping, maybe Mark was receiving initiatory temple ordinances, which would also explain his lack of clothing. Perhaps the cave was being used as a temporary place for ordinances, and Christ wanted the disciples to stay awake with him to receive an endowment, when the angel came to strengthen him. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: n.B. my example of Isaiah and how to read the confusing references to winepresses and the like. It's not winepresses that are important (although it's interesting to note that "Gethsemane" comes from a word meaning "winepress" but I digress), Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
They are in Pakistan, not Afghanistan. And by the way, as W said, this will take a long time. Afghanistan will not be converted overnight from a hellhole to a place of peace and tranquility. However, I look forward to the day when we can send missionaries there. Jon Stacy Smith wrote: > If the Taliban are coming back, why are we moving on? > / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
If the Taliban are coming back, why are we moving on? Stacy. At 06:20 AM 11/06/2002 -0900, you wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,2763,834287,00.html It looks like Marc may be vindicated in his predictions that the Taliban will come to power in Pakistan. Why we are planning a war against Iraq when the Taliban is coming to power in a nation that already has nuclear weapons is a complete mystery to me. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Laurie got offended that I used the word "puke." But to me, that's what her dinner tasted like. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Oh boy! An exciting day to turn the tables! I did not say "people of Pakistan." Rather, I said "people in Pakistan," not thinking it necessary to offer a long and boring recital of what we all already know. When you say it was the Pakistani gov't with US money who put the Taliban in place, you imply something that isn't true. It was the OLD Pakistani gov't, of which remnants remain in power, but most have been purged. It was also a cold war era event. Things have changed. The "people IN Pakistan" who put the Taliban in place come primarily from the south, where trouble still boils. The cold war is over. Power vacuums come and go, and so thugs will come and go. The fact is that it is difficult to watch everyplace in the world, so that errors can and do occur, and people with hidden agendas can get away (for a while) with their mischiefs. It is easy to hide in the frozen north and pontificate on things which will not directly affect you, especially when (in your frozen north case) you depend upon the citizens of the US to defend you. It is not so easy when you live next to one of the top targets in the world for a terrorist's attack. (I had to get in at least ONE ad homonem attack, since people on this list are so fond of them, and at least one personal ownership issue. And yet, both statements have a lot of truth in them ... :-) And, if you haven't noticed, Manny is in jail. And Clinton gave the Panama Canal to the Chinese. So, some problems have been rectified, and others have not yet been rectified. Jon Marc A. Schindler wrote: My original point was to ask why the US was so obsessed with Iraq when Pakistan presents a greater danger. And there's more to it than saying they were put into power by the "people of Pakistan." It was the Pakistani government plus extremist clerics, using US taxpayer dollars, who put the Taliban into power. This is Manuel Noriega all over again. Jon Spencer wrote: > Who objected to Marc's obvious statement? The Taliban was put in power by > people in Pakistan. > > This is a real "Duh!". By the way, are you advocating that we attack > Pakistan first, and THEN Iraq? I have a better idea. First, we'll attack > Israel - that will completely fool the fake Islamists and we can sneak in a > sucker punch at both Pakistan and Iraq when they are still in shock. France > can come next. > > Jon / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Global Warming
Thanks -- as I suspected, that's a coastal glacier. You'll probably have seen my post by now about this. "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: > >I'd be interested in knowing which one it is, as it's my understanding > >that all > >inland North American glaciers are shrinking. Naturally there could be an > >exception to this, such as coastal glaciers. > > http://www.iceagenow.com/Growing_Glaciers.htm > > Alaska's Hubbard Glacier surging. Yakutat, Alaska. July 15, 2002. > Bulldozing a gravel moraine in front of it, the Hubbard Glacier is > advancing so rapidly that has nearly cut off Russell Fiord from > Disenchantment Bay. The resulting ice and gravel dam is cutting off the > supply of salt water, turning Russell Fiord into Russell Lake, endangering > the small fishing village of Yakutat. > > Russell "Lake" is now rising at the rate of six inches a day as freshwater > from snowmelt and rainfall continues pouring in. Once the lake level rises > to about 130 feet, it will begin spilling over into the nearby Situk River > basin, flooding the usually tranquil stream. This would all but destroy the > world-class salmon and steelhead fishing in the area, and devastate > Yakutat's economy. > > The Hubbard Glacier, 73 miles long and 6 miles wide at the face, is the > largest tidewater glacier in North America. > --- > > Yakutat, incidentally, is one of the branches in our stake. Although I > have never traveled there, it receives a regular visit from the high > council just like every other unit in the stake. In other words, this is > happening right inside our stake. > > Apparently there is another glacier near Mt. McKinley that is growing > to. And I cannot speak to the other glaciers mentioned on this website, > but it claims that there are many glaciers around the world that are > growing instead of retreating. Maybe we should tell these glaciers to > knock it off because it isn't politically correct, do you think? > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, > which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis." > --Jack Handy > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950) Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
My original point was to ask why the US was so obsessed with Iraq when Pakistan presents a greater danger. And there's more to it than saying they were put into power by the "people of Pakistan." It was the Pakistani government plus extremist clerics, using US taxpayer dollars, who put the Taliban into power. This is Manuel Noriega all over again. Jon Spencer wrote: > Who objected to Marc's obvious statement? The Taliban was put in power by > people in Pakistan. > > This is a real "Duh!". By the way, are you advocating that we attack > Pakistan first, and THEN Iraq? I have a better idea. First, we'll attack > Israel - that will completely fool the fake Islamists and we can sneak in a > sucker punch at both Pakistan and Iraq when they are still in shock. France > can come next. > > Jon > > John W. Redelfs wrote: > > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,2763,834287,00.html > > > > It looks like Marc may be vindicated in his predictions that the Taliban > > will come to power in Pakistan. Why we are planning a war against Iraq > > when the Taliban is coming to power in a nation that already has nuclear > > weapons is a complete mystery to me. > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950) Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
Cute, but it doesn't say anything. We've been explicitly told that there are all kinds of things we don't know, that haven't been revealed to us yet. "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: > > It's not that the history isn't important, but to get the real message > > you have to transcend the history. > > In order to transcend something, you have to have it to transcend. --JWR > > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950) Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
"John W. Redelfs" wrote: > After much pondering, Dan R Allen favored us with: > >The tumbling of the walls of Jericho can be seen the same way; it doesn't > >particularly matter whether they fell as described, or the Israelites > >pushed them down after conquering the city. The fact is that Jericho was > >conquered by the Israelites as God promised them they could. > > We will just have to agree to disagree. If the walls did not tumble, the > scriptures have made a false report. Or a false and/or limited understanding has occurred. > And if they are false in this > instance, they may be false in many others, perhaps most others. And there > goes my confidence in the scriptures. Even the Book of Mormon has a > disclaimer indicating that some things in it might contain human error. > > It is a matter of credibility. Who are you going to believe? > False dichotomy. > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950) Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
I Nephi 13 says that the brass plates were *not* the same as what we would call the OT, actually. Furthermore, it says that the G&BC in the days following Christ removed plain and precious parts from the *Gospel*, not the Pentateuch. By the time we get to verse 29 it does also include the OT, but it merely says that the G&BC would take away plain and precious parts, it doesn't say that what they had up to that point was pristine, or the brass plates would not have been a superset of the OT (see verse 23). I Nephi 14 further explains that Nephi was forbidden to write certain things -- including, e.g., the Apocalypse of John (Revelation). I would point to things like the Johannine Comma as an example of verse 28. That doesn't preclude earlier changes. Did Moses also write the part about his own burial? Did he also contradict himself on the number of animals taken aboard the ark? I realize that some brethren have assumed that Moses was the literal author of the Pentateuch, but that is not necessarily doctrine. For instance, in this last January's Ensign, in an article called "Enjoying the Old Testament," we read, "1. The books of Genesis through Deuteronomy are historical books, sometimes called the law. They are also called the five books of Moses because Moses wrote or spoke much of what is in them. These books tell us of the history of the earth as the Lord revealed it to Moses. Genesis begins with the Creation of the world and Adam and Eve. Deuteronomy finishes at the end of Moses life." Note that it leaves the door open by saying "Moses wrote OR spoke MUCH OF WHAT IS IN THEM". Also, the Josian Reform occurred 20 years *before* Lehi left Jerusalem. Here, for those who have interest in exploring the topic further, is what the EoM says under "Biblical Scholarship": Bible Scholarship Latter-day Saints recognize Bible scholarship and intellectual study of the biblical text. Joseph Smith and his associates studied Greek and Hebrew and taught that religious knowledge is to be obtained by study as well as by faith (D&C 88:118). However, Latter-day Saints prefer to use Bible scholarship rather than be driven or controlled by it. The Prophet Joseph Smith suggested certain broad parameters for any LDS critical study of the Bible: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God" (A of F 8). Because Latter-day Saints prefer prophets to scholars as spiritual guides, and the inspiration of scripture and the Holy Ghost to the reasoning of secondary texts, Bible scholarship plays a smaller role in LDS spirituality than it does in some denominations. A fundamental operating principle of "revealed" religions is that all truth cannot be completely discovered through human reason alone. Without God's aid, no one can obtain the vital data, proper perspectives, and interpretive keys for knowing him (see -->Reason and Revelation). Because Latter-day Saints believe that their religion is revealed through living prophets of God, they subordinate human reason to revealed truth.In this latter connection, Latter-day Saints show some affinities with contemporary conservative Roman Catholic and evangelical Bible scholarship. They accept and use most objective results of Bible scholarship, such as linguistics, history, and archaeology, while rejecting many of the discipline's naturalistic assumptions and its more subjective methods and theories. In those instances where Bible scholarship and revealed religion conflict, Latter-day Saints hold to interpretations of the Bible that appear in the other LDS scriptures and in the teachings of latter-day prophets. These observations suggest three basic operating principles for Bible scholarship among Latter-day Saints: 1. Approaches to the Bible must accept divine inspiration and revelation in the original biblical text: it presents the word of God and is not a merely human production. Therefore, any critical methodology that implicitly or explicitly ignores or denies the significant involvement of God in the biblical text is rejected. With minor exceptions, such as the Song of Solomon, which Joseph Smith judged not to be inspired (cf. IE 18 [Mar. 1915]:389), the text is not to be treated in an ultimately naturalistic manner. God's participation is seen to be significant both in the events themselves and in the process of their being recorded. His activity is thus one of the effects to be reckoned with in interpreting the events and in understanding the texts that record them. 2. Despite divine inspiration, the biblical text is not uninfluenced by human language and not immune to negative influences from its human environment, and there is no guarantee that the revelations given to ancient prophets have been perfectly preserved (cf. 1 Ne. 13:20-27). Thus, critical study of the Bible is warranted to help allow for, and suggest corrections of, human errors of formulation, transmission, t
RE: [ZION] Archaeology breakthrough--dramatic transitional forms
John W. Redelfs wrote: --- Could you share a title or two with me? Or is this some kind of proprietary secret? --JWR --- Nature is the science journal I read most often, but my own interests are pretty whimsical and far-ranging. --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
I am in contact with a former Muslim American. I have also been in contact with another former Muslim from Turkey and present Muslims. Like you I once believed that was the goal of all Muslims--to take over countries by the sword. I no longer believe this. I also believe that when it started the Jews and Christians threatened the little religion by war. I am not totally convinced any longer that Islam was always out to convert everyone by the sword. Often, definitely, but not always. Stacy. At 01:41 PM 11/06/2002 -0900, you wrote: After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with: Do any of you believe that the Islamist goal is not just to get Israel out of the west bank but also to take over the entire world? I do. The goal of Islam, like the goal of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is to convert the whole world to their faith. And at one point in their history they believed in missionary work by the sword. I don't know how they believe today. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
I figured that if I added the France option, people would get the what I thought to be obvious facetiousness, given John's well stated objection to any preemptive strikes. (Of course, I don't think that they are preemptive, but reasonable people can disagree; thus John and I can CLEARLY disagree!) Jon Stacy Smith wrote: > Who says we should attack anybody? > > Stacy. > > At 08:35 PM 11/06/2002 -0500, you wrote: > > >Who objected to Marc's obvious statement? The Taliban was put in power by > >people in Pakistan. > > > >This is a real "Duh!". By the way, are you advocating that we attack > >Pakistan first, and THEN Iraq? I have a better idea. First, we'll attack > >Israel - that will completely fool the fake Islamists and we can sneak in a > >sucker punch at both Pakistan and Iraq when they are still in shock. France > >can come next. > > > >Jon > > > >John W. Redelfs wrote: > > > > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,2763,834287,00.html > > > > > > It looks like Marc may be vindicated in his predictions that the Taliban > > > will come to power in Pakistan. Why we are planning a war against Iraq > > > when the Taliban is coming to power in a nation that already has nuclear > > > weapons is a complete mystery to me. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Who says we should attack anybody? Stacy. At 08:35 PM 11/06/2002 -0500, you wrote: Who objected to Marc's obvious statement? The Taliban was put in power by people in Pakistan. This is a real "Duh!". By the way, are you advocating that we attack Pakistan first, and THEN Iraq? I have a better idea. First, we'll attack Israel - that will completely fool the fake Islamists and we can sneak in a sucker punch at both Pakistan and Iraq when they are still in shock. France can come next. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: > http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,2763,834287,00.html > > It looks like Marc may be vindicated in his predictions that the Taliban > will come to power in Pakistan. Why we are planning a war against Iraq > when the Taliban is coming to power in a nation that already has nuclear > weapons is a complete mystery to me. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Archaeology breakthrough--dramatic transitional forms
As I mentioned in my response, sometimes, if the finds are considered newsworthy enough, they'll make it to at least the popular science press, if not to the general media. An example from Scientific American: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000464A6-F2C7-1CE2-93F6809EC588&pageNumber=1&catID=1 "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > After much pondering, Jim Cobabe favored us with: > >Jim what sources do you use to keep abreast of this kind of news? > >--- > > > >Only the most reputable peer-reviewed science journals. (Of course!) > > > >;-> > > Could you share a title or two with me? Or is this some kind of > proprietary secret? --JWR > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950) Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Antigravity
There's gravity, and then there's gravitational force. They are not the same -- that's why other forces, such as inertia, centrifugal force (which is really another term for gravitational force) are considered to be constant. In physics, gravity is the curvature of space caused by the presence of a mass, so is a characteristic of space-time geometry itself. If, as some physicists now think, the universe is not contracting or even at stasis, an acceleration of the space-time continuum itself would mean that anti-gravity exists near the edges of the universe; standard inflation theory holds that gravity was much stronger at a time very shortly (and we're talking ridiculously short periods of time) after the Big Bang because of the presence of anti-gravity, but that in a static or shrinking universe the anti-gravity would have quickly disappeared. The data needed to determine which scenario is actually correct are not yet availble -- as it stands they show somewhat conflicting results. This is how I understand the current state of astrophysics, but I look forward to whatever anyone else has to offer. Incidentally, here's a Scientific American link to an article on anti-gravity in an accelerating universe: http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?colID=18&articleID=000EC6F1-66D3-1C71-9EB7809EC588F2D7 "John W. Redelfs" wrote: > I have been doing a massive search on the multiple Ebsco full-text > databases on the term "antigravity." And I have been amazed by some of the > things I have been reading. Apparently, according to Scientific American, > Science News, Time magazine and others, recent discoveries indicate that > the "big bang" that allegedly started this universe is not slowing down as > expected, but is speeding up. Many responsible scientists are saying this > turns everything on its ear because it suggests that in some parts of space > there is not only gravity, but antigravity. > > Well, of all the sciences, physics is the one that I expect the fewest > surprises from. I mean the top people in the field agree on basics. And > one of the assumptions has always been that gravity is the same everywhere > in the universe. But low and behold it looks like this may not be the case. > > Question: If gravity varies from place to place in the universe, why > couldn't such other phenomenon as inertia, centrifugal force, etc? And if > these most basic forces are not constant throughout the universe, just how > can we know anything for sure? > > Do any of you propeller heads know anything about this? If you like, I can > post a couple of these stories to the list. Just let me know. > > John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] > === > "Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described > intellectuals" --Uncle Bob > === > All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950) Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
That has always been their goal, just as it is our goal. It's the means that are important. There are many good Moslems who want to take over the world just as we do (start buildin' them thar fonts). Then there are the rest. We do need to be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater. But we do need to get rid of the bathwater. Jon Stacy Smith wrote: > Do any of you believe that the Islamist goal is not just to get Israel out > of the west bank but also to take over the entire world? / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Antigravity
I have supreme confidence that the Lord knows what He is doing. I also feel confident that He is happy that we are trying to understand it. As long as I have been studying science, the assumption that physical laws are constant across time and space has always been held to be tenuous, subject to further confirmation. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: > I have been doing a massive search on the multiple Ebsco full-text > databases on the term "antigravity." And I have been amazed by some of the > things I have been reading. Apparently, according to Scientific American, > Science News, Time magazine and others, recent discoveries indicate that > the "big bang" that allegedly started this universe is not slowing down as > expected, but is speeding up. Many responsible scientists are saying this > turns everything on its ear because it suggests that in some parts of space > there is not only gravity, but antigravity. > > Well, of all the sciences, physics is the one that I expect the fewest > surprises from. I mean the top people in the field agree on basics. And > one of the assumptions has always been that gravity is the same everywhere > in the universe. But low and behold it looks like this may not be the case. > > Question: If gravity varies from place to place in the universe, why > couldn't such other phenomenon as inertia, centrifugal force, etc? And if > these most basic forces are not constant throughout the universe, just how > can we know anything for sure? > > Do any of you propeller heads know anything about this? If you like, I can > post a couple of these stories to the list. Just let me know. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Supreme Court: Boy Scouts
Very old news. But if 5-4 switches to 4-5, we are ready with Duty to God." Jon Sandy Rabinowitz wrote: > I think this is recent news, but I'm not sure. I > didn't see this reported on any of the usual news > sites that I read through. > > It appears the Supreme Court has ruled in favor of > the Boy Scouts on the question of whether or not the > organization must be compelled to accept a leader > who advocates homosexuality-- / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Who objected to Marc's obvious statement? The Taliban was put in power by people in Pakistan. This is a real "Duh!". By the way, are you advocating that we attack Pakistan first, and THEN Iraq? I have a better idea. First, we'll attack Israel - that will completely fool the fake Islamists and we can sneak in a sucker punch at both Pakistan and Iraq when they are still in shock. France can come next. Jon John W. Redelfs wrote: > http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,2763,834287,00.html > > It looks like Marc may be vindicated in his predictions that the Taliban > will come to power in Pakistan. Why we are planning a war against Iraq > when the Taliban is coming to power in a nation that already has nuclear > weapons is a complete mystery to me. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Global Warming
I can assure you that if it were not for the DNC and the Sierra Club, not to mention Greenpeace, that glacier would be shrinking so fast your home would be beachfront property. However, now that the Reps have the Senate, say goodbye to that glacier. Noj JWR wrote: > We have a glacier up here in Alaska that is growing every year. I don't > recall the name of it, but I know that not all glaciers are shrinking > around the world. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
After much pondering, Dan R Allen favored us with: The tumbling of the walls of Jericho can be seen the same way; it doesn't particularly matter whether they fell as described, or the Israelites pushed them down after conquering the city. The fact is that Jericho was conquered by the Israelites as God promised them they could. We will just have to agree to disagree. If the walls did not tumble, the scriptures have made a false report. And if they are false in this instance, they may be false in many others, perhaps most others. And there goes my confidence in the scriptures. Even the Book of Mormon has a disclaimer indicating that some things in it might contain human error. It is a matter of credibility. Who are you going to believe? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described intellectuals" --Uncle Bob === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with: Do any of you believe that the Islamist goal is not just to get Israel out of the west bank but also to take over the entire world? I do. The goal of Islam, like the goal of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is to convert the whole world to their faith. And at one point in their history they believed in missionary work by the sword. I don't know how they believe today. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Global Warming
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: I'd be interested in knowing which one it is, as it's my understanding that all inland North American glaciers are shrinking. Naturally there could be an exception to this, such as coastal glaciers. http://www.iceagenow.com/Growing_Glaciers.htm Alaska's Hubbard Glacier surging. Yakutat, Alaska. July 15, 2002. Bulldozing a gravel moraine in front of it, the Hubbard Glacier is advancing so rapidly that has nearly cut off Russell Fiord from Disenchantment Bay. The resulting ice and gravel dam is cutting off the supply of salt water, turning Russell Fiord into Russell Lake, endangering the small fishing village of Yakutat. Russell "Lake" is now rising at the rate of six inches a day as freshwater from snowmelt and rainfall continues pouring in. Once the lake level rises to about 130 feet, it will begin spilling over into the nearby Situk River basin, flooding the usually tranquil stream. This would all but destroy the world-class salmon and steelhead fishing in the area, and devastate Yakutat's economy. The Hubbard Glacier, 73 miles long and 6 miles wide at the face, is the largest tidewater glacier in North America. --- Yakutat, incidentally, is one of the branches in our stake. Although I have never traveled there, it receives a regular visit from the high council just like every other unit in the stake. In other words, this is happening right inside our stake. Apparently there is another glacier near Mt. McKinley that is growing to. And I cannot speak to the other glaciers mentioned on this website, but it claims that there are many glaciers around the world that are growing instead of retreating. Maybe we should tell these glaciers to knock it off because it isn't politically correct, do you think? John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis." --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: ...one sees echoes of that ancient emnity in the NT). For us LDS this is a step backwards and in a way represents an excising of a "plain and precious truth." After all, as we'll all soon be learning about in GD The 13th chapter of 1 Nephi makes it clear that the "plain and precious parts" that were removed from the scriptures were removed after the record of the Jews went to the Gentiles thought the hands of the great and abominable church of the devil. This would not include the various corruptions that had already occurred in the Old Testament record. After all, Moses wrote the whole Pentateuch himself. Not much room for corruption in that part of the record any way. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "Dad always thought laughter was the best medicine, which I guess is why several of us died of tuberculosis." --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
Mark: If the walls of Jericho did not fall as described in the Bible, then in what way were the covenant people successful? If the Red Sea did not part then in what way can we say that God's power is great and that He led the Israelites? In what way can it be said how willing and capable God is in helping you succeed in following His commandments? Dan: They overcame the people of Jericho. I do not question that the city of Jericho, or the people of Jericho were destroyed by the Israelites. God promised that He would give that land to the Israelites if they would only follow His commandments. They moved in, conquered the people that were there, and God's promise was realized. _That's_ the principle, and the fact that they lived in the area afterwards is the event that proves the principle. Mark: The events prove the principle. If the events did not happen we are left without any proof at all. How much faith would you have in a God who said "Trust me" but who never did anything that showed He was trustworthy? Dan: But isn't faith supposed to be the belief in something _without_ physical evidence that it exists? To insist that the walls of Jericho _had_ to fall a specific way or else all faith is void, sounds very similar to the demands of the Pharisees that a sign was necessary before they could believe that Jesus was the Christ. I'm sure that's not how you meant it, but it could be understood that way. How much faith should I place in a God? If I want to accept Him as _my_ God, that faith should be total - whether He does anything in this mortal realm for me or not. Mark: So far as I can recall off the top of my head, very, very few of the events described in the scriptures were just symbolic. They all happened. God really did create the world, create the Garden of Eden, place a truly and actually naked Adam and Eve there who did eat a fruit that physically changed them, etc. The rib and the serpent may be symbolic, but I cannot think of much else that was. The flood, the tower of Babel with its confounding of languages, the Jaredite barges - all real events. Dan: And if that fruit actually turned out to be a hostess twinkie, would your faith be destroyed? Should it be? I don't question the existence of this world, or the garden, or the lives of Adam and Eve, or that the Israelites made a covenant with God that He did keep. I'm saying that if the description of some ancient event turns out to have been symbolic in nature, it would not affect my testimony of the principles involved. Mark: It's just as John said: real events can be symbols themselves. But they would have no power as symbols if they were not real. Dan: The flow of current in a metallic conductor is an actual, measurable event. It's also understood that this current is the result of electrons passing from one molecule to another. 'I' is the conventional symbol for this current flow, which is understood to flow from positive to negative. But electrons _actually_ flow from negative to positive potentials in a metallic conductor. So the conventional symbols are wrong for the case of metallic conductors; yet we continue to use them. Why? because the conventional models hold true for _all_ conductors regardless of whether the current flow comes from negative or positive charges. The symbols of the conventional current model hold a lot of power for those who use them - even when they don't really match what's physically happening circuit-wise. The tumbling of the walls of Jericho can be seen the same way; it doesn't particularly matter whether they fell as described, or the Israelites pushed them down after conquering the city. The fact is that Jericho was conquered by the Israelites as God promised them they could. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: It's not that the history isn't important, but to get the real message you have to transcend the history. In order to transcend something, you have to have it to transcend. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Archaeology breakthrough--dramatic transitional forms
After much pondering, Jim Cobabe favored us with: Jim what sources do you use to keep abreast of this kind of news? --- Only the most reputable peer-reviewed science journals. (Of course!) ;-> Could you share a title or two with me? Or is this some kind of proprietary secret? --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with: That it rewrote the Torah with the issuing of a document scholars think is the precursor to the modern Deuteronomy (which was later finished by Ezra after the Exile), is also part of this strange and complex historical soup. Deuteronomy was written by Moses, just as the rest of the Pentateuch was. It was not part of a "strange and complex historical soup." --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Antigravity
I have been doing a massive search on the multiple Ebsco full-text databases on the term "antigravity." And I have been amazed by some of the things I have been reading. Apparently, according to Scientific American, Science News, Time magazine and others, recent discoveries indicate that the "big bang" that allegedly started this universe is not slowing down as expected, but is speeding up. Many responsible scientists are saying this turns everything on its ear because it suggests that in some parts of space there is not only gravity, but antigravity. Well, of all the sciences, physics is the one that I expect the fewest surprises from. I mean the top people in the field agree on basics. And one of the assumptions has always been that gravity is the same everywhere in the universe. But low and behold it looks like this may not be the case. Question: If gravity varies from place to place in the universe, why couldn't such other phenomenon as inertia, centrifugal force, etc? And if these most basic forces are not constant throughout the universe, just how can we know anything for sure? Do any of you propeller heads know anything about this? If you like, I can post a couple of these stories to the list. Just let me know. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described intellectuals" --Uncle Bob === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Bible vs. the Scientists
Dan, put another way, the difference between us and Biblicists is that they
believe the Bible to *be* the word of God in an existential, substantive, "an und
für sich" (in and of itself) sense, whereas we believe it is a *record* of the
word of God, to be preached from, and interpreted by prophets. The prophet could
teach from a grocery list if he were so inclined. (the latter is a nod to the
famous SF short story, "A Canticle for Leibowitz")
Dan R Allen wrote:
> Dan:
> And I know that the Bible _does_ have errors in it, not just might. But it
> is _still_ the Word of God; how can this be? Simple: the errors are in the
> _specifics_, not the true principles.
>
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want
a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
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Re: [ZION] Antarctic Warming
Tom Matkin wrote:
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Marc A. Schindler
> > Subject: Re: [ZION] Antarctic Warming
> >
> > This is precisely the way science works.
>
> Or doesn't work!
You want results, I fear, that science can't provide. "Science is forever
tentative" is a well-known saying in science.
> What will the next study show? And the one after that?
> One is tempted to observe after a lifetime of encounters with scientific
> contradictions, false leads, overblown conclusions, forgotten lessons,
> conflicts of interest, grandiose hubris, smoke and mirrors, and (as a
> steady disturbing diversion), bald faced lies, spiced up by the
> occasional lucky guess or flash of genuine inspiration that these so
> called "scientific" studies are at best desperate flailing hunting
> oscillations, mere wild and hopeful hunches based on incomplete and
> false readings of the landscape, that have staggered through history
> like a merry band of oblivious drunken sailors ignorantly reeling down a
> narrow waterfront pier ever more in danger of drowning than safe passage
> to shore. But I will resist the temptation.
>
> Tom
>
I think the real problem is that people use science to support other ends.
Science in and of itself is neutral, it's what you do with it that counts.
I'm glad you're able to resist temptation. We are all involved in human
occupations in a telestial world, with all that that implies ;-)
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want
a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
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Re: [ZION] Bible vs. the Scientists
John: For some reason this line of argument reminds me of those who deny the historicity of the Book of Mormon: --- The Book of Mormon doesn't have to be literally a record of ancient America as long as the principles that it teaches are true. There probably weren't any Nephites and Lamanites in ancient America. It is an extended allegory that the Lord inspired Joseph Smith to make because of the wonderful, eternal truths that it teaches. --- Dan: Is this an example of a strawman? I wasn't speaking about the Book of Mormon, but the Bible - specifically the Old Testament. I don't hold the position on the Book of Mormon that you are apparently trying to claim that I do. John: Sorry, but in my book, this kind of reasoning just won't cut it. Admittedly there is symbolism in the Bible. There is symbolism in the Book of Mormon, too. But there really was a Father Lehi, and there really were Nephites and Lamanites. And it matters very much to me whether or not the God of the Old Testament parted the Red Sea, or Jesus Christ and Peter literally walked on water. If they didn't, then the scriptures are a lie, and I might just as well chuck all this religion stuff. Dan: Why would the scriptures be a lie if the parting of the Red Sea was merely a symbolic testimony of the Israelites leaving Egypt and Pharaoh's inability to stop them? Notice John that I do not question the fact that the Israelites existed, that they left Egypt, or that they physically crossed the Red Sea. I am saying that a belief in the actual parting, a'la Charlton Heston, is not necessary for a testimony that God is real, that he guided the Israelites past that physical obstacle, and He is willing to do the same for us today. John: You see. I know that the Bible might have errors in it. But there are undoubtedly errors in the findings, interpretations, and conclusions of archaeologists and paleontologist, too. Nothing that man touches can be without error. But I don't know why religious people would assume the error is with the Bible rather than the scientists. That is the crux of the matter. When push comes to shove, why would anybody put scientists above the scriptures? Dan: And I know that the Bible _does_ have errors in it, not just might. But it is _still_ the Word of God; how can this be? Simple: the errors are in the _specifics_, not the true principles. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
Do any of you believe that the Islamist goal is not just to get Israel out of the west bank but also to take over the entire world? Stacy. / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Global Warming
Have you seen any season reversals in the last few years? I don't think I have seen actual complete reversals--maybe something for a day or two. Stacy. At 01:04 PM 11/06/2002 -0600, you wrote: >We have a glacier up here in Alaska that is growing every year. I don't >recall the name of it, but I know that not all glaciers are shrinking >around the world. That isn't the half of it. The seas shall go beyond their bounds. I believe there will be a great melting of the ice caps and all this in conjunction with the return of the 10 Lost Tribes. All the cities on the coasts will be threatened. All of them. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002 / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
Sorry to reply to my own post, but I should add, too, that Hebrews 11 goes on to show
that it is through faith that the actions of the ancients are "well-attested." We
accept the stories on faith, not on historicity, because they tell us something
essential, and that something transcends actual history, the details of which would
get in the way of
the spiritual message, something several BoM authors also complained of. But we do
have to accept that something happened -- it's that the how and when needn't concern
us -- and this is why reading the scriptures by the spirit, rather than by modern
interpretation as the Biblicists, our modern-day Pharisees, do, is not akin to the
modern "new
history" movement which denies historicity altogether, contrary to what John alleges.
"Marc A. Schindler" wrote:
> Hebrews 11:1 -- that's where we get our faith from.
>
> Mark Gregson wrote:
>
> >
> > > - Is it more important that the walls of Jericho fell as described, or
> > > that the people of the covenant were successful as long as they followed
> > > Him?
> >
> > If the walls of Jericho did not fall as described in the Bible, then in what way
>were the covenant people successful? If the Red Sea did not part then in what way
>can we say that God's power is great and that He led the Israelites? In what way can
>it be said how willing and capable God is in helping you succeed in following His
>commandments?
> >
> > The events prove the principle. If the events did not happen we are left without
>any proof at all. How much faith would you have in a God who said "Trust me" but who
>never did anything that showed He was trustworthy?
> >
> > So far as I can recall off the top of my head, very, very few of the events
>described in the scriptures were just symbolic. They all happened. God really did
>create the world, create the Garden of Eden, place a truly and actually naked Adam
>and Eve there who did eat a fruit that physically changed them, etc.
> >
> > The rib and the serpent may be symbolic, but I cannot think of much else that was.
> The flood, the tower of Babel with its confounding of languages, the Jaredite barges
>- all real events.
> >
> > It's just as John said: real events can be symbols themselves. But they would
>have no power as symbols if they were not real.
> >
> > = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] =
> >
> >
> > --
> > ___
> > Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com
> >
> > Powered by Outblaze
> >
> > /
> > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
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> > /
> >
>
> --
> Marc A. Schindler
> Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
>
> The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
>technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want a
>world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
>
> Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
>solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor
>those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
>
> /
> /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
> /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
> /
>
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want a
world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely;
its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of
any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
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Re: [ZION] Global Warming
>We have a glacier up here in Alaska that is growing every year. I don't >recall the name of it, but I know that not all glaciers are shrinking >around the world. That isn't the half of it. The seas shall go beyond their bounds. I believe there will be a great melting of the ice caps and all this in conjunction with the return of the 10 Lost Tribes. All the cities on the coasts will be threatened. All of them. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
I think your list contains false choices. For an explanation of the difference
between secular and sacred histories, I suggest:
http://www.members.shaw.ca/kschindler/frye_1.htm
Your questions seem to me to proceed from the false assumption that narrative
accounts are to be read in the same manner as modern historical narrative is to be
read. But that mode of thinking was unknown to Semitic peoples. It was invented by
Herodotus, a Greek, in 500 BC.
Stacy Smith wrote:
> Then we must ask ourselves if the Biblical accounts are a. Only
> allegories. B. Lies. C. Half and half. D. Half truth, half error. If
> they are erroneous our faith is in vain. For if God did not intervene in
> the affairs of man, our faith is vain. If Christ be not raised, etc.
>
> Stacy.
>
> At 11:33 AM 11/05/2002 -0900, you wrote:
>
> >After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
> >>People think Churchill's remark that sometimes a truth is so precious
> >>that it has
> >>to be protected by numerous lies is a cynical reading of history, but
> >>there's a
> >>lot of wisdom to that. It doesn't matter when Jericho's walls came
> >>tumbling down.
> >>It's pretty certain that they didn't tumble when Joshua's account said
> >>they did,
> >>but so what? That's not the point.
> >
> >I think it makes a lot of difference whether or not Moses was a liar. It
> >also makes a lot of difference whether or not we may rely upon the Bible
> >for anything. I understand the qualifier in the Article of Faith. But if
> >the story of the wall tumbling is not to be taken literally, perhaps we
> >shouldn't take the story of the Israelites in Egypt seriously
> >either. Maybe the resurrection of Christ was just a figure of speech.
> >
> >I think we are in danger of throwing the baby out with the bath water when
> >we start labeling as figurative those things that might be literally
> >true. And we need to remember that just because something is symbolism,
> >doesn't mean that is not also literally true. Literal facts can serve as
> >symbols.
> >
> >I would like to see a thread on how we separate the figurative from the
> >literal in scripture. Do we just automatically assume a thing is only a
> >figure of speech if it doesn't fit in with our naturalistic interpretation
> >of the human past?
> >
> >John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >===
> >"Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described
> >intellectuals" --Uncle Bob
> >===
> >All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
> >
> >/
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> >/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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> /
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> /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
> /
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want
a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
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RE: [ZION] Antarctic Warming
> -Original Message- > From: Marc A. Schindler > Subject: Re: [ZION] Antarctic Warming > > This is precisely the way science works. Or doesn't work! What will the next study show? And the one after that? One is tempted to observe after a lifetime of encounters with scientific contradictions, false leads, overblown conclusions, forgotten lessons, conflicts of interest, grandiose hubris, smoke and mirrors, and (as a steady disturbing diversion), bald faced lies, spiced up by the occasional lucky guess or flash of genuine inspiration that these so called "scientific" studies are at best desperate flailing hunting oscillations, mere wild and hopeful hunches based on incomplete and false readings of the landscape, that have staggered through history like a merry band of oblivious drunken sailors ignorantly reeling down a narrow waterfront pier ever more in danger of drowning than safe passage to shore. But I will resist the temptation. Tom It is a good study. Note, too, > that he > found evidence of global warming in other areas. We know that our own > Arctic is > warming up, as is the boreal forest, where I live. This is having a number > of > results -- eventually everything will settle into a new stasis, but any > kind of > change is disruptive. In our case it means more forest fires, in the case > of the > Arctic it means the opening up of the Northwest Passage, and the coming to > the > fore of an old political issue between Canada and the USA: namely, whether > internal waters should be considered high seas or not. The US says the > Northwest > Passage is international waters, Canada disagrees. The US claims the > Inside > Passage, between Vancouver Island the mainland of BC as international, > even > though one often traverses through straits as narrow as a few km wide. It > will > not accede to the channel between Los Angeles and the Catalina Islands, or > Long > Island Sound, as being international, though. This is a holdover from the > Cold > War, when Soviet submarines used to hover off the coasts. > > Jim Cobabe wrote: > > > Is global warming just symbolic? Like so many other theories, it seems > > forever tentative. > > > > Deseret News, Tuesday, November 05, 2002 > > > > Iceberg theories melting > > > > By Jesse Hyde > > Deseret News staff writer > > > > PROVO - In March 2000, the largest iceberg ever observed broke off an > ice > > shelf in Antarctica, signaling for many a warming of the planet. > > > > A pair of scientists concluded a year later that the number of icebergs > > around Antarctica was on the rise. The icebergs were melting, it seemed, > > because the planet was getting hotter. > > > > A recent study by a Brigham Young University professor disputes this > theory. > > David Long, a BYU professor of electrical engineering, says the > increasing > > number of icebergs observed around Antarctica has nothing to do with > global > > warming. > > > > "There's no evidence that there's a connection," Long says. "Basically, > we > > see better now, so we see more." > > > > Long and his students spent more than a year studying 20 years of > satellite > > pictures and radar images taken of the waters around the South Pole and > > determined the number of icebergs near Antarctica has not changed > > substantially. More icebergs are reported today because the tools to > spot > > them have improved, the study found. > > > > Researchers have used satellite imaging to identify and monitor icebergs > > since the early 1970s, but cloudy weather and dark nights often > prevented > > some icebergs from being photographed and identified. > > > > Scientists then began using radar, which can identify icebergs through > > clouds and operate at night. Until recently the resolution of the radar > > images was too low to detect icebergs smaller than 35 miles across. > > > > Long's research team created a computer program that produces images > sharp > > enough to spot icebergs as small as a mile wide. > > > > The number of icebergs found in Antarctica has not changed much since > 1978, > > Long concluded. The massive icebergs recently observed breaking off ice > > shelves are the result of periodic growth and retraction of the large > > glaciers that yield icebergs every 40 to 50 years. > > > > "This is not evidence of global warming," Long said. "But it also does > not > > say global warming isn't occurring. It doesn't say anything either way." > > > > In fact, Long has done other research that supports the global warming > > theory. He found more melting of snow on the Greenland icecap is the > result > > of a one degree temperature increase that is consistent with other > global > > warming theories. > > > > Douglas MacAyeal, a University of Chicago glaciologist who tracks > icebergs, > > applauds Long's research and says linking iceberg growth to global > warming > > would be premature. > > > > "Any reputable scientist would not disagree with what I've said," Long > said. > > > > Long'
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
He had even stronger language about Bible stories in some discourses. Note though
that the lesson Pres. Young gets out of this isn't that a physical act led to
faith, but that the telling of the story, and the reading of the story, is the
act of faith -- this is what I get out of his likening it to being baptized for
the remission of sins.
Jim Cobabe wrote:
> What Brigham Young had to say about the "symbolic" story of Jericho:
>
> If we are the people of God, we are to be the richest people on the
> earth, and these riches are to be held in God, not in the devil. God
> tells us how we may accomplish this, as plainly and as surely as he told
> Joshua and the people of Israel how to cause the downfall of the walls
> of Jericho. They were to march around the walls once a day for seven
> days, then seven times in one day, and the last time they went round the
> walls they blew their horns with all their might, and down fell the
> walls of Jericho. We do not understand all about this, if we did, we
> should understand that it was as simple as any of the acts of the Lord:
> as simple as being baptized for the remission of sins. (Journal of
> Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints' Book Depot, 1854-1886],
> 17: 45 - 46.)
>
> ---
> Mij Ebaboc
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want
a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
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Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
Hebrews 11:1 -- that's where we get our faith from.
Mark Gregson wrote:
>
> > - Is it more important that the walls of Jericho fell as described, or
> > that the people of the covenant were successful as long as they followed
> > Him?
>
> If the walls of Jericho did not fall as described in the Bible, then in what way
>were the covenant people successful? If the Red Sea did not part then in what way
>can we say that God's power is great and that He led the Israelites? In what way can
>it be said how willing and capable God is in helping you succeed in following His
>commandments?
>
> The events prove the principle. If the events did not happen we are left without
>any proof at all. How much faith would you have in a God who said "Trust me" but who
>never did anything that showed He was trustworthy?
>
> So far as I can recall off the top of my head, very, very few of the events
>described in the scriptures were just symbolic. They all happened. God really did
>create the world, create the Garden of Eden, place a truly and actually naked Adam
>and Eve there who did eat a fruit that physically changed them, etc.
>
> The rib and the serpent may be symbolic, but I cannot think of much else that was.
>The flood, the tower of Babel with its confounding of languages, the Jaredite barges
>- all real events.
>
> It's just as John said: real events can be symbols themselves. But they would have
>no power as symbols if they were not real.
>
> = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] =
>
>
> --
> ___
> Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com
>
> Powered by Outblaze
>
> /
> /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
> /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
> /
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want a
world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely;
its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of
any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
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Re: [ZION] Archaeology breakthrough--dramatic transitional forms
Two of the best-known examples are Nature and Science:
http://www.nature.com/evoeco/ (personal registration required to view ToC, and
subscription to read articles) Nature is based in the UK.
http://www.sciencemag.org/ (also requires registration and subscription to read
articles) This is put out by the American Association of the Advancement of
Sciences (AAAS).
But only the most newsworthy items make it to Nature or Science; you have to
check the specialty archaeology and biology journals for this sort of thing.
They're rarely reported even in the popular science press unless they're
particularly noteworthy.
Jim Cobabe wrote:
> John W. Redelfs wrote:
> ---
> Jim what sources do you use to keep abreast of this kind of news?
> ---
>
> Only the most reputable peer-reviewed science journals. (Of course!)
>
> ;->
>
> ---
> Mij Ebaboc
>
> /
> /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
> /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
> /
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want
a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
After actually reading the article John posted (I posted my "rant" before reading
the article) I note that it agrees with my memory that the NWF and Baluchistan
were the provincial legislatures the Islamist coalition won. But I also saw an
interesting link to India that might be worth reading:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/kashmir/Story/0,2763,823877,00.html
"John W. Redelfs" wrote:
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,2763,834287,00.html
>
> It looks like Marc may be vindicated in his predictions that the Taliban
> will come to power in Pakistan. Why we are planning a war against Iraq
> when the Taliban is coming to power in a nation that already has nuclear
> weapons is a complete mystery to me.
>
> John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want
a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
And since I'm in a prognisticating mood, I'll further predict that the spark that will ignite that particular region (Pakistan) will be Kashmir. Right now al-Qaeda appears to be most active in Yemen, but I think eventually we'll hear more about their activities in Kashmir. The problem in Pakistan is that the elite is basically dedicated to democracy and depends, as the lesser of two evils, on the military to protect the country from the Islamists, who are the real enemy to democracy. However, when the military conducts sham elections, as just happened (and in spite of their efforts have lost two provincial assemblies* to Islamist parties, and seen the representation of Islamist parties in the national parliament grow to the point where they are power brokers between the two mainstream parties), it weakens the roots of democracy. Thus the cycle spirals, downwards and downwards. I'm afraid we'll soon see an Islamist state with the bomb, already tested and demonstrated in the Baluchi desert. *Baluchistan and the Northwest Frontier, iirc. -- in other words, the two provinces bordering Afghanistan. Their capitals are Quetta and Peshawar, respectively. Again, just going from memory, so I'm subject to correction. My question is: why? It didn't have to happen this way, but every country conducts their foreign policy in their own direct, short-term interests. One could hardly expect otherwise. But what some see as my "anti-Americanism" is merely pointing out that when a hyperpower conducts foreign policy in this way (and again, why shouldn't they? The British, the Turks and the French all did before them), it will have unforeseen consequences in the long run that will be adverse not only to that country's interests, but to the world's interests, simply because of the power they yield. Pakistan is a case in point. As early as the first war over Kashmir, in 1971, the USA chose to back Pakistan, albeit covertly, against India, even though India was (and remains) the world's largest democracy (a messy one, but a democracy nonetheless). They did this, I think, for ideological reasons. I can't even remember who was in the White House then. Nixon? Ford? Whoever...but J. Nehru looked to Moscow for aid since it wasn't forthcoming from the west (another case of the right wing creating a vacuum for the left to fill, as with civil rights in the US). In all fairness, Nehru was a nationalist and also a statist in any case, so was predisposed to look to Moscow if he had to choose. The war forced him to choose. Since then the US has historically backed Pakistan, even when Pakistan's ISI (their secret service), patterned partly after the CIA and Mossad and the NSA, trained a cohort of anti-Soviet fighters known as the "Afghan Arabs." This cohort, which took the name "Taliban", meaning "teachers" or "scholars," iirc, came from all over the Arab world, and even the non-Arab world, but never really were of much help to the US or to Afghanistan in their fight against the USSR. At most several tens of thousands were in Afghanistan, as opposed to what we now call the Northern Alliance (a loose grouping of disparate elements, including war lords answerable to no one but themselves), who had hundreds of thousands of well-trained soldiers. It was they who defeated the USSR, not the Taliban. However, so as not to dry up the funding, Pakistan kept making the Taliban look good, and the US depended on Pakistan for information about Afghanistan (the US pulled out of Afghanistan, iirc, in the mid-70s -- its embassy remaining empty until it was blown up in the mid-90s, so it had little choice but to depend on Pakistan for intelligence). The West should have been backing India, not Pakistan, imo, despite Nehru's policies -- India has moderated its centralist policies considerably over the decades. But I think the current administration is too committed to the single-power status model, as opposed to the multi-power model (see http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/01/schwarzlayne.htm) that I believe would be in the USA's and the West's and indeed the entire world's best long-term interests. As long as short-term interests are allowed to predominate, this (multi-power) model will never happen. One saw this discouragement in action a decade ago when Europe tried to take responsibility for its own defence, by creating the EU strike force. The US insisted that it not duplicate anything NATO (which the US dominates) does, effectively emasculating the force from day one. It doesn't even trust Europe, let alone India. And many US intellectuals claim Europe is indecisive and ineffectual. No wonder! On a personal note, I visited NATO's procurement office once, which is located, of all places, in a sleepy little town, an ex Luxembourg army base, just west of Luxembourg City, and talked to three procurement officers, including the office head. The office head was Canadian, the two people who reported to him were U.S. All three complained that it was diff
Re: [ZION] Global Warming
I'd be interested in knowing which one it is, as it's my understanding that all
inland North American glaciers are shrinking. Naturally there could be an
exception to this, such as coastal glaciers. There's another possible
explanation, too, an ironic one:
http://www.gi.alaska.edu/ScienceForum/ASF8/890.html
"John W. Redelfs" wrote:
> We have a glacier up here in Alaska that is growing every year. I don't
> recall the name of it, but I know that not all glaciers are shrinking
> around the world. --JWR
>
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want
a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
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Re: [ZION] Antarctic Warming
This is precisely the way science works. It is a good study. Note, too, that he found evidence of global warming in other areas. We know that our own Arctic is warming up, as is the boreal forest, where I live. This is having a number of results -- eventually everything will settle into a new stasis, but any kind of change is disruptive. In our case it means more forest fires, in the case of the Arctic it means the opening up of the Northwest Passage, and the coming to the fore of an old political issue between Canada and the USA: namely, whether internal waters should be considered high seas or not. The US says the Northwest Passage is international waters, Canada disagrees. The US claims the Inside Passage, between Vancouver Island the mainland of BC as international, even though one often traverses through straits as narrow as a few km wide. It will not accede to the channel between Los Angeles and the Catalina Islands, or Long Island Sound, as being international, though. This is a holdover from the Cold War, when Soviet submarines used to hover off the coasts. Jim Cobabe wrote: > Is global warming just symbolic? Like so many other theories, it seems > forever tentative. > > Deseret News, Tuesday, November 05, 2002 > > Iceberg theories melting > > By Jesse Hyde > Deseret News staff writer > > PROVO In March 2000, the largest iceberg ever observed broke off an ice > shelf in Antarctica, signaling for many a warming of the planet. > > A pair of scientists concluded a year later that the number of icebergs > around Antarctica was on the rise. The icebergs were melting, it seemed, > because the planet was getting hotter. > > A recent study by a Brigham Young University professor disputes this theory. > David Long, a BYU professor of electrical engineering, says the increasing > number of icebergs observed around Antarctica has nothing to do with global > warming. > > "There's no evidence that there's a connection," Long says. "Basically, we > see better now, so we see more." > > Long and his students spent more than a year studying 20 years of satellite > pictures and radar images taken of the waters around the South Pole and > determined the number of icebergs near Antarctica has not changed > substantially. More icebergs are reported today because the tools to spot > them have improved, the study found. > > Researchers have used satellite imaging to identify and monitor icebergs > since the early 1970s, but cloudy weather and dark nights often prevented > some icebergs from being photographed and identified. > > Scientists then began using radar, which can identify icebergs through > clouds and operate at night. Until recently the resolution of the radar > images was too low to detect icebergs smaller than 35 miles across. > > Long's research team created a computer program that produces images sharp > enough to spot icebergs as small as a mile wide. > > The number of icebergs found in Antarctica has not changed much since 1978, > Long concluded. The massive icebergs recently observed breaking off ice > shelves are the result of periodic growth and retraction of the large > glaciers that yield icebergs every 40 to 50 years. > > "This is not evidence of global warming," Long said. "But it also does not > say global warming isn't occurring. It doesn't say anything either way." > > In fact, Long has done other research that supports the global warming > theory. He found more melting of snow on the Greenland icecap is the result > of a one degree temperature increase that is consistent with other global > warming theories. > > Douglas MacAyeal, a University of Chicago glaciologist who tracks icebergs, > applauds Long's research and says linking iceberg growth to global warming > would be premature. > > "Any reputable scientist would not disagree with what I've said," Long said. > > Long's study was published in EOS Transactions, a publication of the > American Geophysics Union. Cheryl Bertoia, of the U.S. National Ice Center > participated in the study. > > Jim Cobabe > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > http://members.tripod.com/~jcobabe > > When I use a word, it means just what I choose it to mean--neither more nor > less. > > _ > Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > / > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950) Note: This communication represents the informal personal
Re: [ZION] Bible vs. the Scientists
"John W. Redelfs" wrote:
> After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
> >This is a misrepresentation. Those who deny the historicity of the Book of
> >Mormon
> >deny that it was the record of an ancient people, but rather that it was a
> >result
> >of Joseph Smith's creativity. This is a lot different from realizing that the
> >scriptures are written in multiple layers, and that to restrict one's
> >understanding to the literalistic understanding that arises from the
> >assumptions
> >we have in our culture alone is limiting the power of scripture. What Dan
> >said is
> >precisely the *opposite* of what those who deny the historicity of the Book of
> >Mormon say, and I agree with him, and will not be tagged as a "Signaturi"
> >because
> >you don't understand how to read scripture.
>
> I didn't say anything about Signaturi. I don't think you or anyone else on
> this list is a Signaturi, or I would have booted you off years ago. But to
> suggest that something must be symbolism instead of literal just because
> one cannot come up with a naturalistic explanation is EXACTLY what the
> Signaturi do when they deny the historicity of the Book of Mormon.
No it's not. You have this wrong, John.
> Forced
> to choose between belief and man's logic, they equivocate. They try to
> straddle a fence that is a razor blade. If they can't explain it in
> scientific terms, they just say it is a figure of speech and that it
> doesn't matter as long as the divine principle was communicated.
>
> It actually reminds me of the arguments of the atheists that I grew up
> with. Because of this or that it isn't necessary for there to be a
> God. Well... what does necessary have to do with it anyway? If it is
> real, if it happened, then necessity has nothing to do with it.
>
I'm sorry if you've interpreted your background this way, but it's not necessary.
You're forcing a false dichotomy on people which is not only not necessary, but
presents a barrier to a deeper understanding of the scriptures.
>
> Now I now that there are a lot of blanks that we do not know how to fill
> today. Many of them are not going to be filled until the Second
> Coming. But I don't think we need to fill those blanks by denying the
> miracles of God. And yes, I think that suggesting that God did not part
> the Red Sea because "it isn't necessary" as long as the true message is
> communicated, is trying to force the miraculous, the divine, into a
> scientific mold.To say that something is not so because it isn't
> necessary, is bad logic in the first place. Lot's of things are so even
> though they are not necessary. It wasn't necessary for me to eat a big
> pizza yesterday, but I did.
>
"Miracles" are all done according to natural law, it's just that we don't
understand how they were done. We are not like Protestants -- we do not believe God
is a supernatural magician.
>
> There are those who want to deny the reality of the miracles reported in
> the Old and New Testaments. Some of them try to brush off the miracle by
> saying that it never happened, that it is just a figure of speech or an
> allegory. They point out all the symbolism that is in the
> scriptures. Fine. There is a lot of symbolism in the scriptures. I
> wouldn't have it any other way. But to deny miracles by assuming the
> record to be symbolism rather than literal, is a cop out, in my
> opinion. Such a person ought to just admit they don't have enough faith to
> believe the miracles reported in the scriptures.
>
> John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
Plenty of materials have been suggested for your consideration. I have yet to see
any indication that you are inclined to consider them. That is, of course, your
business, but your forced false dichotomies are stumbling blocks I believe you will
have to learn to overcome.
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we dont want a
world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill (1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor
those of any organization with which the author may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
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Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
Gary Smith wrote: > And I think that Marc and I would agree. The point we are making, is we > need to be careful not to go too far in the other direction, either. We > are not like the evangelist Christian movements out there who are literal > Biblicists. We realize that the Bible is not perfect (see the AoF that > says we believe it as far as it is translated correctly). Figuring out > which points are literally true and which are just symbolic is not an > easy task. One thing I use is if I find it in the other scriptures (like > the Red Sea dividing), then I'm fairly certain it is historical. However, > I also realize that the early Jewish scribes had hidden agendas. We know > this, because our prophets have told us that they cut things out of the > scriptures, changed things, etc. It is also very possible that they may > have tried to "enhance" the story of Israel's origin somewhat, we just > don't know. Things changed in the Israelite religion over the centuries. > At first, worshipping in high places was a good thing (the Tabernacle was > at the high place in Gibeon, for example), but later Jewish kings and > priests sought to consolidate power by destroying the high places of > Jehovah and insisting people could only sacrifice and worship at the > Jerusalem temple. This was a partial attempt to get people living in the > Northern Kingdom to defect and move to Judah. This obviously was somewhat > successful, as we have people like Lehi (from the tribe of Joseph) living > near Jerusalem. > This is in fact exactly the political side of the so-called "Josian Reform" -- Josiah wanted to consolidate power in Jerusalem, and although *all* the "high places" including the site of the temple of Solomon were by that time desecrated, he declared that from that point on the only true temple would be in Jerusalem, that Bethel, Dan and so on, were to be considered pagan (and in fact they eventually became what we later know of as "Samaritan" sites -- one sees echoes of that ancient emnity in the NT). For us LDS this is a step backwards and in a way represents an excising of a "plain and precious truth." After all, as we'll all soon be learning about in GD, when Jeremiah's advice wasn't heeded and the Assyrians swept down over Jerusalem, he was taken, against his will, to Egypt. But not to the traditional Jewish refuge there, Alexandria, but to Upper Egypt, to what we now call Elephantine, an island, near which the Nag Hammadi scrolls were, coincidentally, found not long after the DSS scrolls were found. It so happens that the outlines of an ancient Jewish temple have been found on Elephantine, so clearly Josiah's "reform" was wrong in at least some of its details. That it rewrote the Torah with the issuing of a document scholars think is the precursor to the modern Deuteronomy (which was later finished by Ezra after the Exile), is also part of this strange and complex historical soup. It's why I keep harping on the difference between secular and scriptural history. I know it's difficult for many people -- and if this represents some kind of a threat to you, than just ignore it. Don't worry about and consign it to "the egghead corner of the foyer". But for those who are interested, realizing that not all questions are meaningful is a step towards a deeper understanding of the scriptures. I don't mean to keep banging my own drum here, but my example from our own GD class last Sunday about Isaiah's winepresses is an example. It's not that the history isn't important, but to get the real message you have to transcend the history. History as we understand it today is a secular discipline, and to pull scripture down to that level is to commit the same error the so-called "New Mormon historians" do -- those who believe the BoM is not "historical" in the sense that they believe Joseph Smith made it all up. We have no idea how much comes filtered through Joseph Smith's mind. Clearly the Jacobean language was not in the original as that is an artefact of English, for instance. Some seize upon that as a sign that Joseph Smith aped the KJV. I say it's a sign we should transcend the historicity and read the book for its message. To me the issue of historicity is whether there was genuinely an ancient record (which I believe there was), not how Joseph Smith translated it. For us to get bogged down in modern historical approaches is to play the same game as the anti's who make such ridiculous accusations as the BoM can't be authentic because the ancient Lehites didn't speak French (the word "adieu" is found in the modern English text). Gimme a break! A study of how he "translated" the Book of Abraham is instructive in this regard, but that's a subject for another day. > > We constantly see the kings of Israel rejecting the prophets. Yet much of > the Old Testament was written by the scribes of the kings. Clearly, there > was opportunity for tampering. We just don't know how much was done, and > so must accept the "histor
[ZION] James Ossuary
A nice, in-depth commentary by Dr. Claude Cohen-Matlofsky on the
provenance and genuineness of the James Ossuary, from this morning's
Globe and Mail:
<<http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021106/COOSSUARY/Comment/comment/comment_temp/1/1/3/>>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade;
character, not technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern
world, but we dont want a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill
(1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
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[ZION] Results of mid-term elections on Iraqi policy
I've predicted that once the mid-term elections were out of the way, the
protectionist measures the White House had been taking (presumably at
the instigation of congressmen who were representing purely local
interests) would die down, and more significantly that the pressure to
invade Iraq would also die down. Not everyone agrees with me. From this
morning's Globe and Mail:
"With the election outcome, there will be almost no change in the Bush
administration's policy the scenario of a possible attack on Iraq will
remain intact," said Yotaro Kobayashi, chairman of the Japan Association
of Corporate Executives.
" In South Korea, Paik Seung-gi, a political science professor at
Kyongwon University, noted that with renewed concerns over North Korea's
nuclear weapons program, the elections were also of strong concern.
'The election outcome could have a significant effect on the Korean
Peninsula,' he said. 'If Republicans control both the House and Senate,
it certainly will give the Bush administration an extra weapon to get
tough on North Korea, let alone Iraq'."
The question, I guess, is to what extent the elections were also seen as
a referendum on White House foreign policy. The next few weeks should
show if I was right or not.
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade;
character, not technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern
world, but we dont want a world of engineers. Sir Winston Churchill
(1950)
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.
/
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
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RE: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
What Brigham Young had to say about the "symbolic" story of Jericho: If we are the people of God, we are to be the richest people on the earth, and these riches are to be held in God, not in the devil. God tells us how we may accomplish this, as plainly and as surely as he told Joshua and the people of Israel how to cause the downfall of the walls of Jericho. They were to march around the walls once a day for seven days, then seven times in one day, and the last time they went round the walls they blew their horns with all their might, and down fell the walls of Jericho. We do not understand all about this, if we did, we should understand that it was as simple as any of the acts of the Lord: as simple as being baptized for the remission of sins. (Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints' Book Depot, 1854-1886], 17: 45 - 46.) --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
Providing authoratative interpretation of the scriptures is one of the explict roles of prophets, seers, and revelators who lead the Lord's people. Followers of academics, apologists, revisionists, agnostics, and assorted fruits and nuts, will be sadly misled. --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?
> - Is it more important that the walls of Jericho fell as described, or > that the people of the covenant were successful as long as they followed > Him? If the walls of Jericho did not fall as described in the Bible, then in what way were the covenant people successful? If the Red Sea did not part then in what way can we say that God's power is great and that He led the Israelites? In what way can it be said how willing and capable God is in helping you succeed in following His commandments? The events prove the principle. If the events did not happen we are left without any proof at all. How much faith would you have in a God who said "Trust me" but who never did anything that showed He was trustworthy? So far as I can recall off the top of my head, very, very few of the events described in the scriptures were just symbolic. They all happened. God really did create the world, create the Garden of Eden, place a truly and actually naked Adam and Eve there who did eat a fruit that physically changed them, etc. The rib and the serpent may be symbolic, but I cannot think of much else that was. The flood, the tower of Babel with its confounding of languages, the Jaredite barges - all real events. It's just as John said: real events can be symbols themselves. But they would have no power as symbols if they were not real. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] From somewhere in the eastern hemisphere
I got the following this AM from Tony Pinto, a former coworker of mine who got called into active duty from the Reserves. FYI./Sandy/ --- Begin quoted message --- Some of the things I miss: 1. Family 2. Friends 3. Cold Beer 4. Cold Milk 5. A real shower 6A. A toilet that is less than 150 feet away 6B. A toilet that flushes 7. Toilet paper bought at a real store, not Home Depot's sandpaper section 8. Sleeping in/on a bed 9. Sleeping farther than 100 feet from an active runway 10. Sleeping 11. Food with FDA compliance 12. Vehicles with EPA compliance 13. Water with Flouride 14. T-shirts with color 15. Parachuting into an area with tree obstacles, not landmines 16. Curbside trash service 17. Sleeping without ear plugs 18. Sleeping - I already said that 19. Airplanes with seats 20. Paved roads Best to all... Tony --- End quoted message --- / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Supreme Court: Boy Scouts
I think this is recent news, but I'm not sure. I didn't see this reported on any of the usual news sites that I read through. It appears the Supreme Court has ruled in favor of the Boy Scouts on the question of whether or not the organization must be compelled to accept a leader who advocates homosexuality-- http://laws.findlaw.com/us/000/99-699.html --Noting, however, that it was decided 5-4, and the court appears very divided on the issue. All the best, /Sandy/ / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Archaeology breakthrough--dramatic transitional forms
John W. Redelfs wrote: --- Jim what sources do you use to keep abreast of this kind of news? --- Only the most reputable peer-reviewed science journals. (Of course!) ;-> --- Mij Ebaboc / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Taliban in Pakistan
http://www.guardian.co.uk/pakistan/Story/0,2763,834287,00.html It looks like Marc may be vindicated in his predictions that the Taliban will come to power in Pakistan. Why we are planning a war against Iraq when the Taliban is coming to power in a nation that already has nuclear weapons is a complete mystery to me. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === Laurie got offended that I used the word "puke." But to me, that's what her dinner tasted like. --Jack Handy === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Global Warming
We have a glacier up here in Alaska that is growing every year. I don't recall the name of it, but I know that not all glaciers are shrinking around the world. --JWR / /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
