Re: [ZION] Home automation

[Marc A. Schindler]

Isn't that what you got married for?


Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> Anyone here interested in home automation? Anyone do any?
>
> Stephen
>
>

"Why should I buy a dishwasher. I already have three: Marc, Craig and Karen."  --
my Mom, circa 1968.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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[ZION] Symbolic story

[Jim Cobabe]

An angel appears at a faculty meeting and tells the dean that in return 
for his unselfish and exemplary behavior, the Lord will   reward him 
with his choice of infinite wealth, wisdom, or beauty.

Without hesitating, the dean selects infinite wisdom.

"Done!" says the angel, and disappears in a cloud of smoke and a bolt of 
lightning.

Now, all heads turn toward the dean, who sits surrounded by a faint halo 
of light.

One of his colleagues whispers, "Say something."

The dean sighs and says, "I should have taken the money."

---
Mij Ebaboc

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[ZION] Home automation

[Stephen Beecroft]

Anyone here interested in home automation? Anyone do any?

Stephen

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RE: [ZION] Bible vs the Scientists

[Stacy Smith]

Thanks.

Stacy.

At 07:49 PM 11/07/2002 -0900, you wrote:


After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with:

I would like a listing of Steven E. Robinson's books so I might buy 
them.  This one sounds interesting.

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RE: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

[Stephen Beecroft]

-Paul-
> The President of the United States and US intelligence has
> determined that he is guilty. Case closed.

-John-
> Just hope they don't find you guilty of anything without evidence.

I agree with John. Poor Saddam. My heart bleeds for him.

Sympathetic Stephen

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RE: [ZION] Bible vs the Scientists

[John W. Redelfs]

After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with:

I would like a listing of Steven E. Robinson's books so I might buy 
them.  This one sounds interesting.

Here is a listing of the titles available at the Harold B. Lee library at BYU:

Robinson, S. E. (1982). The Testament of Adam : an examination of the 
Syriac and Greek traditions, Scholars Press.

Robinson, S. E. (1987). Book review of Early Mormonism and the magic world 
view, by D. Michael Quinn.

Robinson, S. E. (1988). Book review of Haggai, Zechariah 1-8, by Carol L. 
Meyers and Eric M. Meyers.

Robinson, S. E. (1988). Early Christianity and 1 Nephi 13-14 & Warring 
against the Saints of God, Foundation for Ancient Research and Mormon Studies.

Robinson, S. E. (1990). Believing Christ a practical approach to the atonement.

Robinson, S. E. (1990). Believing Christ: a practical approach to the 
atonement.

Robinson, S. E. (1990). Stephen Robinson devotional, Brigham Young 
University Media Services.

Robinson, S. E. (1991). Are Mormons Christians?, Bookcraft.

Robinson, S. E. (1992). Believing Christ : the parable of the bicycle and 
other good news, Deseret Book Co.

Robinson, S. E. (1994). Believing Christ, Deseret Book.

Robinson, S. E. (1995). Following Christ : the parable of the divers and 
more good news, Deseret Book Co.

Robinson, S. E. (1995). Following Christ : the parable of the divers and 
more good news, Deseret Book.

Robinson, S. E. (1998). Are Mormons Christians?, Bookcraft.
" ...This thoughtful and well-researched presentation ... examines 
six standards through which Mormons are sometimes judged as non-Christians 
and points out the inconsistencies that exist in the logic." -- container.

Robinson, S. E. and H. D. Garrett (2000). A commentary on the Doctrine and 
Covenants, Deseret Book Co.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
"Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described
intellectuals" --Uncle Bob
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

[John W. Redelfs]

After much pondering, Paul Osborne favored us with:

The President of the United States and US intelligence has determined
that he is guilty. Case closed.


Just hope they don't find you guilty of anything without evidence.  --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

[Stacy Smith]

I remember that video.

Stacy.

At 09:30 PM 11/07/2002 -0700, you wrote:


Actually he admitted it on a videotape played on Al-Jezeera television, out of
Doha, Qatar, the day after. He'd prepared the video ahead of time, so 
there's not
much doubt.

Paul Osborne wrote:

> >Do we really know for sure that Osama was behind the 9-11 attacks.  Just
>
> >what is the evidence?
>
> The President of the United States and US intelligence has determined
> that he is guilty. Case closed.
>
> Paul O
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> 
>
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
>
> Only $9.95 per month!
>
> Visit www.juno.com
>
> 
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>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he 
will pick
himself up and continue on” ­ Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s 
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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[ZION] Up JWR's way -- the Golden Bough of the Misty Isles

[Marc A. Schindler]

Thanks to the stumblebums at S-Cargo Canada [say it out loud and think
French], I often get two issues of the weekly magazines I subscribe to,
at once. This happened today -- with the 04 November issue of the New
Yorker only now getting here, along with the 11 November issue.
Unfortunately that means an absolutely spellbounding article isn't
online anymore, but if there's enough interest, I'll scan the article.
It's about a weird act of vandalism that occurred in Haida Gwai (the
Queen Charlotte Islands), just south of where John lives. The QC's, also
called the Misty Isles, are a mystical and magical place, and the
vandalism involved a 300-year old 160-foot tall (50 metres) ultra-rare
golden Sitka spruce which was cut down by a misfit from the mainland.
Apparently some trees there rival the California redwoods. One Sitka
spruce is said to have left a 17-foot wide (5 metre) stump after it was
cut down.

Golden Sitkas are "chlorotic," which is the result of a rare mutation
which turns their needles yellow instead of green. They can only exist
in a rainy place like John's front yard (Port Charlotte gets 12 feet, or
3.5 metres, of rain a year), and scientists and tourists alike are in
awe of them, and this one was considered practically holy by the Haida,
who called it K'iid K'iyass. On the rare days when there's direct
sunlight, the tree was said to glow. On one tour, tourists were treated
to the incredibly rare sight of an albino raven nesting in its branches
-- said to be one of only two known albino ravens in all of B.C.

The article's called "The Golden Bough," by John Vaillant. It has
absolutely nothing to do with the Gospel, but I thought I'd mention it
in honour of our fearless BLT. And again, I repeat, if there's any
interest, I'd be glad to scan it and either post it privately or email
it to people.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he
will pick himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
author’s employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

[Marc A. Schindler]

Actually he admitted it on a videotape played on Al-Jezeera television, out of
Doha, Qatar, the day after. He'd prepared the video ahead of time, so there's not
much doubt.

Paul Osborne wrote:

> >Do we really know for sure that Osama was behind the 9-11 attacks.  Just
>
> >what is the evidence?
>
> The President of the United States and US intelligence has determined
> that he is guilty. Case closed.
>
> Paul O
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> 
>
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
>
> Only $9.95 per month!
>
> Visit www.juno.com
>
> /
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
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> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Bible vs the Scientists

[Stacy Smith]

Do we have any of these in immediate electronic form I could look at on a 
web site?

Stacy.

At 08:35 PM 11/07/2002 -0700, you wrote:



Jim Cobabe wrote:

> Stacy Smith wrote:
> ---
> I would like a listing of Steven E. Robinson's books so I might buy
> them.  This one sounds interesting.
> ---
>
> Robinson has written three books that are included on my GospeLink
> collection.
>
> ARE MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
> by Stephen E. Robinson
> Bookcraft
> Salt Lake City, Utah 1991
>

Incidentally, this one has received mixed reviews. I can't comment directly
because I haven't read it, but some people I know thinks that his views on 
grace
and works in particular aren't mainstream LDS. Sorry I don't know anymore 
-- it's
a WAR (wild donkeyed rumour) ;-)

>
> BELIEVING CHRIST
> The Parable of the Bicycle and Other Good News
> Stephen E. Robinson
> Deseret Book Company
> Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> FOLLOWING CHRIST
> The Parable of the Divers and More Good News
> Stephen E. Robinson
> Deseret Book Company
> Salt Lake City, Utah 1995
>
> More recently published:
>
> HOW WIDE THE DIVIDE? A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation
> By Stephen E. Robinson, Craig L. Blomberg
> IVP Press, April 1997
>

This one's really stirred the pot amongst evangelicals, who think Blomberg 
is a
traitor for co-authoring a book with an LDS author. It's first on my list, 
fwiw.

>
> The GospeLink collection also includes BYU STUDIES to which Robinson has
> been an occasional contributor.
>
> ---
> Mij Ebaboc
>

If I'm not mistaken, he's written a few things for FARMS, too.


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he 
will pick
himself up and continue on” ­ Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s 
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

[Marc A. Schindler]

Or maybe, like a good joke, you just had to be there to get it.

Steven Montgomery wrote:

> At 06:33 PM 11/7/2002, JWR wrote:
>
> >How do you apply this reasoning to Jesus calling Lazarus forth from his
> >tomb, or raising the daughter of Jairus?  Maybe these two were not really
> >dead, but by the power of God they recovered while if it hadn't been for
> >the blessing they would have died?  Is that what you believe? I personally
> >believe that God performs miracles just like the parting of the Red Sea in
> >our own day.
>
> Or what about Elijah's contest with the priests of Baal? Perhaps fire was
> not really called down from heaven and consumed the sacrifice but it was
> all mere trickery by Elijah?
>
> --
> Steven Montgomery, in sarcasm mode
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> /
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
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>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Osama bin Laden

[Marc A. Schindler]

Well, there have been news reports that his son, Mohammed, has been captured. I
believe he only has 1 son, and 2 daughters, but I'm not sure.

Paul Osborne wrote:

> >Is everyone pretty convinced that Osama bin Laden is still alive?  If he
>
> >is, maybe we should finish that part of the War on Terrorism before
> adding
> >Saddam Hussein to the hit list.  --JWR
>
> I'm convinced he is dead. You can buy anything in this world for money
> but only if it exists.
>
> Paul O
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> 
>
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
>
> Only $9.95 per month!
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>
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>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

[Marc A. Schindler]

Good on ya, mate. Have a root beer for me!

Paul Osborne wrote:

> You know what?  We could list all the fantastic stories and miracles in
> the scriptures and especially from the dreaded Bible and explain them all
> away. Then, we could all just quit the church and go have a beer together
> and laugh about how stupid we were to ever have believed in such things.
> Put I'll pass on that drink and keep the faith.
>
> ;-)
>
> Paul O
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> 
>
> Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today
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>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Osama bin Laden

[Marc A. Schindler]

That was a pretty neat trick in northern Yemen, I gotta admit. I just finished
reading Holy War, Inc., by Peter L. Bergen, ex of CNN. He'd just about finished
writing this book, subtitled "The Secret World of Osama bin Laden" when 9-11
happend, so naturally he had to add an extra chapter. Bergen travelled into the
Hadramawt region (believed to be part of the Frankincense Trail where Lehi
travelled, incidentally), home of the bin Laden clan, and also into northern
Yemen, where the translator/driver's job was to stop at checkpoints, grab his
Kalashnikov, and yell at people who also had Kalashnikovs. Pretty interesting
territory.

Me, I get my frankincense at a head shop near the downtown Hyatt in Calgary every
year. It's almost as safe, and a lot closer. ;-)

Jim Cobabe wrote:

> John W. Redelfs wrote:
> ---
> Is everyone pretty convinced that Osama bin Laden is still alive?  If he
> is, maybe we should finish that part of the War on Terrorism before
> adding Saddam Hussein to the hit list.
> ---
>
> If the greatest priority in this situation is to eliminate terrorist
> leaders like OBL and Sadaam, I think the CIA-directed Predator unmanned
> platform for launching a lil'ole Hellfire missle is a fine solution.
> Let the active military operations lay off the guy for a while until the
> spies can spot him, then lay one of these little gifts in his lap.
> Should prove very effective treatment for any irritating folks on the
> list of those we'd never miss.
>
> The terrorists don't have access to technology like this.  Let them be
> fearing and tremble for a change.
>
> ---
> Mij Ebaboc
>
> /
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Bible vs the Scientists

[Marc A. Schindler]

Jim Cobabe wrote:

> Stacy Smith wrote:
> ---
> I would like a listing of Steven E. Robinson's books so I might buy
> them.  This one sounds interesting.
> ---
>
> Robinson has written three books that are included on my GospeLink
> collection.
>
> ARE MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
> by Stephen E. Robinson
> Bookcraft
> Salt Lake City, Utah 1991
>

Incidentally, this one has received mixed reviews. I can't comment directly
because I haven't read it, but some people I know thinks that his views on grace
and works in particular aren't mainstream LDS. Sorry I don't know anymore -- it's
a WAR (wild donkeyed rumour) ;-)

>
> BELIEVING CHRIST
> The Parable of the Bicycle and Other Good News
> Stephen E. Robinson
> Deseret Book Company
> Salt Lake City, Utah
>
> FOLLOWING CHRIST
> The Parable of the Divers and More Good News
> Stephen E. Robinson
> Deseret Book Company
> Salt Lake City, Utah 1995
>
> More recently published:
>
> HOW WIDE THE DIVIDE? A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation
> By Stephen E. Robinson, Craig L. Blomberg
> IVP Press, April 1997
>

This one's really stirred the pot amongst evangelicals, who think Blomberg is a
traitor for co-authoring a book with an LDS author. It's first on my list, fwiw.

>
> The GospeLink collection also includes BYU STUDIES to which Robinson has
> been an occasional contributor.
>
> ---
> Mij Ebaboc
>

If I'm not mistaken, he's written a few things for FARMS, too.


--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

[Paul Osborne]

>Do we really know for sure that Osama was behind the 9-11 attacks.  Just

>what is the evidence?


The President of the United States and US intelligence has determined
that he is guilty. Case closed.

Paul O
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Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

[Marc A. Schindler]

We all feel the same joy, John. It might be hard to believe, but the wonder of
the resurrection and the atonement, and the word of God through his scriptures
are just as meaningful to some of us whose views you might look askance at. Let's
just say it takes more than one voice to make a choir, so long as there's the
same underlying melody.

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> After much pondering, Dan R Allen favored us with:
> >I'm saying that it should not be absolutely _necessary_ for God to have
> >parted the Red Sea, a'la Charlton Heston, to have a testimony that He
> >guided the Israelites across it. The fact that He helped them cross the Red
> >Sea is literal, but the exact means described may or may not be symbolic,
> >and shouldn't be the basis for a testimony of His power. Could He have done
> >it? Without a doubt. Was it absolutely necessary for Him to prove His power
> >to the Israelites in that specific way? Perhaps for them, but not for me.
>
> How do you apply this reasoning to Jesus calling Lazarus forth from his
> tomb, or raising the daughter of Jairus?  Maybe these two were not really
> dead, but by the power of God they recovered while if it hadn't been for
> the blessing they would have died?  Is that what you believe? I personally
> believe that God performs miracles just like the parting of the Red Sea in
> our own day.  I predict we will be able to see those miracles in profusion
> as this last dispensation draws to a close.  If an all out germ war ever
> occurs, there will be people dying everywhere of diseases for which there
> is no cure and which are 100 percent fatal.  In that day, the priesthood
> will have to perform healing blessing far more miraculous than are the norm
> in our own day.  Why?  Because in the economy of God's dealings with man,
> he is not accustomed to doing for man what man can do for himself with a
> little divine help.  After all, it was the Lord who inspired the current
> medical technology.  Why shouldn't he expect us to use it so far as we can?
>
> What about the inventions of nuclear fission bombs?  Can anyone deny that
> it was a technological leap forward of such an order as to seem like pure
> science fiction to all those who lived and died in the pre-atomic era?  How
> about the Internet?  These "miracles" are just as astounding as anything
> described in the Old Testament.  If deBakey had lived in Christ's time and
> performed a heart transplant on one side of the stage while Jesus commanded
> Lazarus to come forth on the other side, which of the two would be thought
> to have performed the more miraculous feat?
>
> I feel bad for people who are so "adult" that they no longer have the
> wonder and belief that they had when they were children.  I am a man who
> lives in a world of miracles past, present and future.  I believe all these
> things because I choose to.  It fills my heart with joy to believe them.
>
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===
> "Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described
> intellectuals" --Uncle Bob
> ===
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
> /
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Bible vs the Scientists

[Marc A. Schindler]

Try a search at www.deseretbook.com -- that should work.

Stacy Smith wrote:

> I would like a listing of Steven E. Robinson's books so I might buy
> them.  This one sounds interesting.
>
> Stacy.
>
> At 09:45 PM 11/07/2002 +, you wrote:
>
> >This discussion by Stephen Robinson applies with equal validity to
> >questions about the historical accuracy of the Bible...
> >
> >Naturalistic explanations are often useful in evaluating empirical data,
> >but when the question asked involves non-empirical categories, such as
> >"Is the Book of Mormon what it purports to be?", it begs the question to
> >adopt a method whose first assumption is that the Book cannot be what it
> >claims to be. This points out a crucial logical difficulty in using this
> >method in either attacking or defending the Church. When those with a
> >naturalistic bias apply their "scholarship" to LDS literature and
> >history, we usually assume that it is to test the prophetic claims of
> >the Church. In fact there is never a test at all. There cannot be, for
> >the naturalistically based assumptions of the method have determined
> >before we even begin that divine claims cannot be accepted, and the
> >critical scholar will already be looking for naturalistic explanations
> >for his data. Or in the words of W. Wink:
> >
> >In this case the carrying over of methods from the natural sciences has
> >led to a situation where we no longer ask what we would like to know . .
> >. Rather, we attempt to deal only with those complexes of facts which
> >are amenable to historical method. We ask only those questions which the
> >method can answer (9).
> >
> >It seems to me that few LDS scholars really understand this. While they
> >think they are engaged in "pure" scholarship, many are really
> >methodological half-breeds, using the naturalistic method when it suits
> >them and drawing upon their theology when it suits them, without ever
> >stating where and how they draw the line. Opponents and proponents alike
> >can use the fruits of empirical research in a selective way to defend
> >the faith, but the authority of the historical-critical method is lost
> >in so doing, and the final product lacks any real force, being merely
> >opinion (mingled with scripture). Pure critical scholarship on the other
> >hand is agnostic by definition, and its rules are by design stacked
> >against theistic conclusions. It would be incredibly naive to believe
> >that biblical criticism brings us closer to the Christ of faith. After
> >200 years of refining its methods, biblical scholarship has despaired of
> >knowing the real Jesus, except for a few crumbs, and has declared the
> >Christ pictured in scripture to be a creation of the early Church (see
> >the excellent summary in Perrin 207-48).
> >
> >
> >The Expanded Book of Mormon, Stephen Robinson essay; in Monte S. Nyman
> >and Charles D. Tate, Jr., eds., Second Nephi: The Doctrinal Structure
> >[Provo: BYU Religious Studies Center, 1989], 395.)
> >
> >---
> >Mij Ebaboc
> >
> >/
> >///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
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> >/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >---
> >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> >Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002
>
> /
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

[Paul Osborne]

You know what?  We could list all the fantastic stories and miracles in
the scriptures and especially from the dreaded Bible and explain them all
away. Then, we could all just quit the church and go have a beer together
and laugh about how stupid we were to ever have believed in such things.
Put I'll pass on that drink and keep the faith.

;-)

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] Osama bin Laden

[Paul Osborne]

>Is everyone pretty convinced that Osama bin Laden is still alive?  If he

>is, maybe we should finish that part of the War on Terrorism before
adding 
>Saddam Hussein to the hit list.  --JWR


I'm convinced he is dead. You can buy anything in this world for money
but only if it exists.

Paul O
[EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

[Steven Montgomery]

At 06:33 PM 11/7/2002, JWR wrote:


How do you apply this reasoning to Jesus calling Lazarus forth from his 
tomb, or raising the daughter of Jairus?  Maybe these two were not really 
dead, but by the power of God they recovered while if it hadn't been for 
the blessing they would have died?  Is that what you believe? I personally 
believe that God performs miracles just like the parting of the Red Sea in 
our own day.

Or what about Elijah's contest with the priests of Baal? Perhaps fire was 
not really called down from heaven and consumed the sacrifice but it was 
all mere trickery by Elijah?


--
Steven Montgomery, in sarcasm mode
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

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RE: [ZION] Bible vs the Scientists

[Jim Cobabe]

Stacy Smith wrote:
---
I would like a listing of Steven E. Robinson's books so I might buy 
them.  This one sounds interesting.
---

Robinson has written three books that are included on my GospeLink 
collection.

ARE MORMONS CHRISTIANS?
by Stephen E. Robinson
Bookcraft
Salt Lake City, Utah 1991

BELIEVING CHRIST
The Parable of the Bicycle and Other Good News
Stephen E. Robinson
Deseret Book Company
Salt Lake City, Utah 


FOLLOWING CHRIST
The Parable of the Divers and More Good News
Stephen E. Robinson
Deseret Book Company
Salt Lake City, Utah 1995


More recently published:

HOW WIDE THE DIVIDE? A Mormon and an Evangelical in Conversation 
By Stephen E. Robinson, Craig L. Blomberg
IVP Press, April 1997



The GospeLink collection also includes BYU STUDIES to which Robinson has 
been an occasional contributor.

---
Mij Ebaboc

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Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

[Marc A. Schindler]

You will, of course, have to ask Elder Widtsoe that.

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
> The details in the story of the flood are undoubtedly drawn from the
> experiences of the writer. Under a downpour of rain, likened to the opening
> of the heavens, a destructive torrent twenty-six feet deep [12 metres] or
> deeper would easily be formed. The writer of Genesis made a faithful report
> of the facts known to him concerning the flood. In other localities the
> depth of the water might have been more or less. In fact, the details of
> the flood are not known to us.
> ---
>
> I don't want to seem like I'm being critical of Elder Widtsoe, but is
> assuming that the "writer of Genesis" described the flood in his own
> language and experience.  But as I have pointed out before, our Pearl of
> Great Price makes it clear the 5 books of Moses were revealed from heaven
> to Moses, not something he had to find words to describe because he saw
> them.  Does anyone suppose that anyone who had a face-to-face relationship
> with God could be so naive as to misinterpret the Great Flood?
>
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===
> Laurie got offended that I used the word "puke." But to
> me, that's what her dinner tasted like. --Jack Handy
> ===
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
> /
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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RE: [ZION] Osama bin Laden

[Jim Cobabe]

John W. Redelfs wrote:
---
Is everyone pretty convinced that Osama bin Laden is still alive?  If he 
is, maybe we should finish that part of the War on Terrorism before 
adding Saddam Hussein to the hit list.
---

If the greatest priority in this situation is to eliminate terrorist 
leaders like OBL and Sadaam, I think the CIA-directed Predator unmanned 
platform for launching a lil'ole Hellfire missle is a fine solution.  
Let the active military operations lay off the guy for a while until the 
spies can spot him, then lay one of these little gifts in his lap.  
Should prove very effective treatment for any irritating folks on the 
list of those we'd never miss.

The terrorists don't have access to technology like this.  Let them be 
fearing and tremble for a change.

---
Mij Ebaboc

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Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

[John W. Redelfs]

After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
The details in the story of the flood are undoubtedly drawn from the 
experiences of the writer. Under a downpour of rain, likened to the opening 
of the heavens, a destructive torrent twenty-six feet deep [12 metres] or 
deeper would easily be formed. The writer of Genesis made a faithful report 
of the facts known to him concerning the flood. In other localities the 
depth of the water might have been more or less. In fact, the details of 
the flood are not known to us.
---

I don't want to seem like I'm being critical of Elder Widtsoe, but is 
assuming that the "writer of Genesis" described the flood in his own 
language and experience.  But as I have pointed out before, our Pearl of 
Great Price makes it clear the 5 books of Moses were revealed from heaven 
to Moses, not something he had to find words to describe because he saw 
them.  Does anyone suppose that anyone who had a face-to-face relationship 
with God could be so naive as to misinterpret the Great Flood?

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
Laurie got offended that I used the word "puke." But to
me, that's what her dinner tasted like. --Jack Handy
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

[John W. Redelfs]

After much pondering, Dan R Allen favored us with:

I'm saying that it should not be absolutely _necessary_ for God to have
parted the Red Sea, a'la Charlton Heston, to have a testimony that He
guided the Israelites across it. The fact that He helped them cross the Red
Sea is literal, but the exact means described may or may not be symbolic,
and shouldn't be the basis for a testimony of His power. Could He have done
it? Without a doubt. Was it absolutely necessary for Him to prove His power
to the Israelites in that specific way? Perhaps for them, but not for me.


How do you apply this reasoning to Jesus calling Lazarus forth from his 
tomb, or raising the daughter of Jairus?  Maybe these two were not really 
dead, but by the power of God they recovered while if it hadn't been for 
the blessing they would have died?  Is that what you believe? I personally 
believe that God performs miracles just like the parting of the Red Sea in 
our own day.  I predict we will be able to see those miracles in profusion 
as this last dispensation draws to a close.  If an all out germ war ever 
occurs, there will be people dying everywhere of diseases for which there 
is no cure and which are 100 percent fatal.  In that day, the priesthood 
will have to perform healing blessing far more miraculous than are the norm 
in our own day.  Why?  Because in the economy of God's dealings with man, 
he is not accustomed to doing for man what man can do for himself with a 
little divine help.  After all, it was the Lord who inspired the current 
medical technology.  Why shouldn't he expect us to use it so far as we can?

What about the inventions of nuclear fission bombs?  Can anyone deny that 
it was a technological leap forward of such an order as to seem like pure 
science fiction to all those who lived and died in the pre-atomic era?  How 
about the Internet?  These "miracles" are just as astounding as anything 
described in the Old Testament.  If deBakey had lived in Christ's time and 
performed a heart transplant on one side of the stage while Jesus commanded 
Lazarus to come forth on the other side, which of the two would be thought 
to have performed the more miraculous feat?

I feel bad for people who are so "adult" that they no longer have the 
wonder and belief that they had when they were children.  I am a man who 
lives in a world of miracles past, present and future.  I believe all these 
things because I choose to.  It fills my heart with joy to believe them.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
"Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described
intellectuals" --Uncle Bob
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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[ZION] Of Presidents and Kings

[Marc A. Schindler]

Here's a letter-to-the-editor in the 04/11/02 New Yorker in response to
the Hendrik Hertzberg editorial that I posted here a while ago. Normally
a liberal (in the US sense), Hertzberg had argued that there was
precedent for US presidential declarations of war (although he didn't
use that term -- he meant there were loopholes).

It's nothing new, as Hendrik Hertzberg points out, for Presidents to
find a way around the provision of the Constitution giving Congress the
power to declare war (The Talk of the Town, September 30th). But
repetition doesn't make it any less wrong. The problem is the same as
that cited by Abraham Lincoln in 1848, when he was a congressman, in a
letter to his law partner: "Kings had always been involving and
impoverishing their people in wars, pretending generally, if not always,
that the good of the people was the object." This, he wrote, the framers
"understood to be the most oppressive of all Kingly oppressions." The
view that Presidents had the authority to make the decision to go to
war, he added, "destroys the whole matter, and places our Presidents
where Kings have always stood."

Andy Jacobs, Jr.
Indianapolis, Ind.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he
will pick himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
author’s employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

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RE: [ZION] Bible vs the Scientists

[Stacy Smith]

I would like a listing of Steven E. Robinson's books so I might buy 
them.  This one sounds interesting.

Stacy.

At 09:45 PM 11/07/2002 +, you wrote:


This discussion by Stephen Robinson applies with equal validity to
questions about the historical accuracy of the Bible...

Naturalistic explanations are often useful in evaluating empirical data,
but when the question asked involves non-empirical categories, such as
"Is the Book of Mormon what it purports to be?", it begs the question to
adopt a method whose first assumption is that the Book cannot be what it
claims to be. This points out a crucial logical difficulty in using this
method in either attacking or defending the Church. When those with a
naturalistic bias apply their "scholarship" to LDS literature and
history, we usually assume that it is to test the prophetic claims of
the Church. In fact there is never a test at all. There cannot be, for
the naturalistically based assumptions of the method have determined
before we even begin that divine claims cannot be accepted, and the
critical scholar will already be looking for naturalistic explanations
for his data. Or in the words of W. Wink:

In this case the carrying over of methods from the natural sciences has
led to a situation where we no longer ask what we would like to know . .
. Rather, we attempt to deal only with those complexes of facts which
are amenable to historical method. We ask only those questions which the
method can answer (9).

It seems to me that few LDS scholars really understand this. While they
think they are engaged in "pure" scholarship, many are really
methodological half-breeds, using the naturalistic method when it suits
them and drawing upon their theology when it suits them, without ever
stating where and how they draw the line. Opponents and proponents alike
can use the fruits of empirical research in a selective way to defend
the faith, but the authority of the historical-critical method is lost
in so doing, and the final product lacks any real force, being merely
opinion (mingled with scripture). Pure critical scholarship on the other
hand is agnostic by definition, and its rules are by design stacked
against theistic conclusions. It would be incredibly naive to believe
that biblical criticism brings us closer to the Christ of faith. After
200 years of refining its methods, biblical scholarship has despaired of
knowing the real Jesus, except for a few crumbs, and has declared the
Christ pictured in scripture to be a creation of the early Church (see
the excellent summary in Perrin 207-48).


The Expanded Book of Mormon, Stephen Robinson essay; in Monte S. Nyman
and Charles D. Tate, Jr., eds., Second Nephi: The Doctrinal Structure
[Provo: BYU Religious Studies Center, 1989], 395.)

---
Mij Ebaboc

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Re: [ZION] Osama bin Laden

[Stacy Smith]

My point exactly and right on target.

Stacy.

At 11:07 AM 11/07/2002 -0900, you wrote:


Is everyone pretty convinced that Osama bin Laden is still alive?  If he 
is, maybe we should finish that part of the War on Terrorism before adding 
Saddam Hussein to the hit list.  --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

[Stacy Smith]

Definitely we should win the victory over the Taliban before going on to 
other types of terrorists.

Stacy.

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RE: [ZION] Bible vs the Scientists

[John W. Redelfs]

After much pondering, Steven Montgomery favored us with:

The two covenants: The first is the old covenant, the law of Moses, the 
law of carnal commandments, the preparatory gospel, the covenant God made 
with Israel, through Moses, to prepare them for the second. The second is 
the new covenant, the everlasting covenant, the fulness of the gospel, the 
covenant God offers to make with all men, through Christ, to prepare them 
for the fulness of his glory. The old covenant was the lesser law, the new 
is the higher law. Moses was the mediator of the old covenant, standing 
between God and his people, pleading their cause, seeking to prepare them 
for the coming of their Messiah. Jesus is the mediator of the new 
covenant, standing between God and all men, pleading their cause, seeking 
to prepare them for that celestial inheritance reserved for the saints.

Bruce R. McConkie was one of the greatest prophets to ever walk this 
earth.  Paul had nothing up on him.  --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Mars Attacks

[Marc A. Schindler]

Stephen Beecroft wrote:

> -John-
> > Have any of you seen the comedy entitled Mars Attacks.  It is
> > hilarious, and one of my favorite, recent films.
>
> To each his own, I suppose. Michelle and I watched this some years ago,
> and we each thought it was one of the very worst, un-funniest,
> unpleasant movies we had ever had the misfortune of watching. It tried
> so hard to be over-the-top in cynical, gruesome humor, but instead it
> was mostly just unwatchable.

"campy" might be the word you're searching for ;-)
Or not -- chacun á son goût, and some of us revel in our poor goût...

> The only reason we finished it was that it
> had come highly recommended by a couple of people, so we (or I) kept on
> saying, "It _must_ get better than this." Unfortunately, it did not.
> Perhaps worst of all was not the grotesqueness of the "humor", but its
> mind-numbing predictability. (NOTE: SPOILER ALERT) The funniest part of
> the whole movie, which merited a slight half-smile from me and an
> eye-roll from Michelle, was the usage of Slim Whitman music to explode
> the Martians' heads at the end of the movie. On the whole, pretty much a
> waste of my time from beginning to end.
>

Oh, and what's the character actress's name who played the old granny? She was a
hoot!

And a cameo by Tom Jones parodying himself -- that's even better than William
Shatner.

>
> In contrast, I found _Death Becomes Her_ to be a very funny show, though
> the humor was so dark and gruesome that I did not think the humor was
> worth the experience. I wouldn't recommend the movie, but at least it
> was funny.
>
> Stephen
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
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[ZION] James ossuary

[Marc A. Schindler]

I remember once when the Shroud of Turin was in the news and was about
to C-14-tested, a family member turned to me and said, "Wouldn't it be
wonderful if they could prove it was Jesus's?" I was shocked, and said,
"Of course not!" (aside from the fact that it would have been only
possible to prove that it was the shroud of a 1st century Palestinian
man, there's the religious principle that faith comes *before*
knowledge, according to how I read Jacob 1:5-6 and Alma 31:32).  I'm
reminded of this again with the James ossuary.

A common-sense splash of cold water from today's Globe and Mail:

<<http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021107/COLORNA/Comment/comment/comment_temp/2/2/3/>>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he
will pick himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
author’s employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

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RE: [ZION] Mars Attacks

[Stephen Beecroft]

-John-
> Have any of you seen the comedy entitled Mars Attacks.  It is
> hilarious, and one of my favorite, recent films.

To each his own, I suppose. Michelle and I watched this some years ago, 
and we each thought it was one of the very worst, un-funniest, 
unpleasant movies we had ever had the misfortune of watching. It tried 
so hard to be over-the-top in cynical, gruesome humor, but instead it 
was mostly just unwatchable. The only reason we finished it was that it 
had come highly recommended by a couple of people, so we (or I) kept on 
saying, "It _must_ get better than this." Unfortunately, it did not. 
Perhaps worst of all was not the grotesqueness of the "humor", but its 
mind-numbing predictability. (NOTE: SPOILER ALERT) The funniest part of 
the whole movie, which merited a slight half-smile from me and an 
eye-roll from Michelle, was the usage of Slim Whitman music to explode 
the Martians' heads at the end of the movie. On the whole, pretty much a 
waste of my time from beginning to end.

In contrast, I found _Death Becomes Her_ to be a very funny show, though 
the humor was so dark and gruesome that I did not think the humor was 
worth the experience. I wouldn't recommend the movie, but at least it 
was funny.

Stephen

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Re: [ZION] Bible vs the Scientists

[Marc A. Schindler]

This is a very interesting comment,a nd sheds a lot of light on the subject at
hand. We often try to read in our own modern, secular ideas of what *we* want the
truth to be, rather than letting the record speak for itself, and we're often
inconsistent. I have on my website a transcript of a talk by Daniel Ludlow when
he was MP in Perth, Australia, on this topic wrt the Book of Mormon. It makes for
interesting reading (here's a direct link to the beginning of the talk, in draft
form: http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/C/bomarch.htm#C147)

Jim Cobabe wrote:

> This discussion by Stephen Robinson applies with equal validity to
> questions about the historical accuracy of the Bible...
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

[Marc A. Schindler]

And the Republicans won control of both houses of Congress, don't forget that
one.

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with:
> >We are moving to other targets as if we have the Taliban licked.  We don't.
>
> Oh, but we have achieved our real if unstated objective.  We have dropped a
> lot of very expensive bombs, and we have given George Bush wartime powers
> at the expense of our ancient liberties.  I think that Brother George was
> pretty darn successful even if he didn't nail Osama.
>
> Do we really know for sure that Osama was behind the 9-11 attacks.  Just
> what is the evidence?
>
> John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> =
> To me, clowns aren't funny.  In fact, they're kind of scary.
> I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to
> the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad.
> --Jack Handy
> =
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

[Marc A. Schindler]

Sorry, I hit the send button too quickly. The false dichotomy is that it's your
view or your understanding of another's view. I believe the witness of the Holy
Ghost. Period.

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
> > >  And if they are false in this
> > > instance, they may be false in many others, perhaps most others.  And there
> > > goes my confidence in the scriptures.  Even the Book of Mormon has a
> > > disclaimer indicating that some things in it might contain human error.
> > >
> > > It is a matter of credibility.  Who are you going to believe?
> > >
> >
> >False dichotomy.
>
> So what is the true dichotomy in this instance?  --JWR
>
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--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor
those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

[Marc A. Schindler]

That your view is the only credible one.

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
> > >  And if they are false in this
> > > instance, they may be false in many others, perhaps most others.  And there
> > > goes my confidence in the scriptures.  Even the Book of Mormon has a
> > > disclaimer indicating that some things in it might contain human error.
> > >
> > > It is a matter of credibility.  Who are you going to believe?
> > >
> >
> >False dichotomy.
>
> So what is the true dichotomy in this instance?  --JWR
>
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>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
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Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

[Marc A. Schindler]

Depends on what you mean by "happened."  I'm with John Widtsoe on this one. Here's how 
he answered the question regarding whether the Flood was universal: John A. Widtsoe, 
Evidences and Reconciliations, p.126-127

=
The suggestion has been made that the flood filled every hollow and valley until the 
earth was a great sphere of water covering the highest
mountain peaks twenty-six feet [12 metres] deep, Mount Ararat, seventeen thousand feet 
high, "upon the mountains" of which the ark rested, would according to this view have 
been completely under water. It is doubtful whether the water in the sky and all the 
oceans would suffice to cover the earth so completely.

The fact remains that the exact nature of the flood is not known. We set up 
assumptions, based upon our best knowledge, but can go no further. We should remember 
that when inspired writers deal with historical incidents they relate that which they 
have seen or that which may have been told them, unless indeed the past is opened to 
them by revelation.

The details in the story of the flood are undoubtedly drawn from the experiences of 
the writer. Under a downpour of rain, likened to the opening of the heavens, a 
destructive torrent twenty-six feet deep [12 metres] or deeper would easily be formed. 
The writer of Genesis made a faithful report of the facts known to him concerning the 
flood. In other localities the depth of the water might have been more or
less. In fact, the details of the flood are not known to us.

===
Furthermore, I believe in the Articles of Faith, one of which reads, "We believe the 
Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly" and another one 
of which reads, "We believe all that God has revealed, all that he does now reveal, 
and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to 
the Kingdom of God."

Furthermore, I would not go as far as Brigham Young, who referred to some Bible 
stories as "baby stories."

Furthermore, I don't believe that just because the English language allows a given 
question to be asked necessarily implies that it can be answered within the terms of 
the question. That is part of the ambiguity of human language. In other words, I avoid 
trick questions, whether they're intended as such or not.

And, in conclusion, my testimony is something that is a gift of the Holy Ghost, and is 
not dependent upon the interpretations by man of any record of the word of God.

Mark Gregson wrote:

>
> > Israelites?  In what way can it be said how willing and capable God is in
> > helping you succeed in following His commandments?
> >
> > Dan:
> > They overcame the people of Jericho. I do not question that the city of
> > Jericho, or the people of Jericho were destroyed by the Israelites. God
> > promised that He would give that land to the Israelites if they would only
> > follow His commandments. They moved in, conquered the people that were
> > there, and God's promise was realized. _That's_ the principle,
>
> I'll answer Marc and Dan together here. Marc didn't address my questions but Dan 
>does.  So, Marc, what's your take on the Red Sea, the walls of Jericho, et al?  Did 
>they happen as described?
>
> Dan's answer has a hint of "When the Israelites say they crossed over the Red Sea on 
>dry ground while the Egyptians perished, what really happened is that the Israelites 
>found a path around on the north but the Egyptians got bogged down in quicksand."
>
> Dan, if the Israelites conquered Jericho without the aid of a miracle as you hint, 
>then in what way did God help them?  Didn't they just accomplish it all on their own?
>
> I hope that isn't what you are trying to say, Dan and Marc.  If you really do 
>believe that the Red Sea parted by the power of God, then I don't understand your 
>point.  I already understand the symbolism and the principles taught by that actual 
>events.  So I haven't disagreed with you.  I just haven't heard you say, "Yes, of 
>course the actual event happened as described".  Instead, you seem to be waffling.
>
> As to Marc's use of Hebrews 11:1 - we only have faith in real things even though we 
>cannot see them.  So we really do need the events.  Happening is believing even if 
>seeing isn't.
>

As I understand it, this is contrary to what we're taught in Alma 32, where knowledge 
only comes *after* faith (see esp. vss. 16-21). Also, in Hebrews 11:1 "seeing" covers 
all the senses -- drawing a distinction between the events and the perception of them 
begs the question.

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick 
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; 
its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor those of 
any organization with which the author may be as

Re: [ZION] Mars Attacks

[Marc A. Schindler]

It is pretty funny, and full of little in-jokes for those familiar with early SF
films. I LOVE Jack Nicholson as the President.

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> Have any of you seen the comedy entitled Mars Attacks.  It is hilarious,
> and one of my favorite, recent films.
>
> Congress is dissolved to mere skeletons and then dust.  And the White House
> is obliterated.
>
> I can think of very little that would so improve our nation, and restore
> our ancient liberties.  Anyway, it was just a joke.  But I have dreamed of
> such a thing for so long, it was a sweet dream come true, even if it was
> just little computer animated Martians.
>
> John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> ===
> Laurie got offended that I used the word "puke." But to
> me, that's what her dinner tasted like. --Jack Handy
> ===
> All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
>
> /
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

[Dan R Allen]

Mark:
I'll answer Marc and Dan together here. Marc didn't address my questions
but Dan does.  So, Marc, what's your take on the Red Sea, the walls of
Jericho, et al?  Did they happen as described?

Dan's answer has a hint of "When the Israelites say they crossed over the
Red Sea on dry ground while the Egyptians perished, what really happened is
that the Israelites found a path around on the north but the Egyptians got
bogged down in quicksand."

Dan:
Close, but no. What I believe happened was that Israel was _guided_, by
God, through that area, and the Egyptians either were not, or were guided
to their destruction. Your comment seems to imply that God's involvement
was not necessary; to the contrary I know that He was directly involved in
their movement.

Mark:
Dan, if the Israelites conquered Jericho without the aid of a miracle as
you hint, then in what way did God help them?  Didn't they just accomplish
it all on their own?

Dan:
In what way does God help you day-to-day without the aid of physical
miracles? I don't believe that they accomplished it "all on their own". I'm
not disputing that God helped them - I know that He did, but I think that
He most likely helped them the same way He helps us today - through the
Holy Ghost.

Mark:
I hope that isn't what you are trying to say, Dan and Marc.  If you really
do believe that the Red Sea parted by the power of God, then I don't
understand your point.  I already understand the symbolism and the
principles taught by that actual events.  So I haven't disagreed with you.
I just haven't heard you say, "Yes, of course the actual event happened as
described".  Instead, you seem to be waffling.

Dan:
I'm saying that it should not be absolutely _necessary_ for God to have
parted the Red Sea, a'la Charlton Heston, to have a testimony that He
guided the Israelites across it. The fact that He helped them cross the Red
Sea is literal, but the exact means described may or may not be symbolic,
and shouldn't be the basis for a testimony of His power. Could He have done
it? Without a doubt. Was it absolutely necessary for Him to prove His power
to the Israelites in that specific way? Perhaps for them, but not for me.

I also don't see this as "waffling" - just the opposite in fact. Whether He
split the waters, or lifted the land, or caused the wind to blow the waters
out of the way, or simply guided them through on a path that only He could
see; the exact means He choose doesn't detract from my testimony that He
_did_ move them from one side to the other. I'm not going to say "Yes, of
course the actual event happened as described", because it really doesn't
matter. If it did, great; if not _so what_. I refuse to stake my testimony,
and relationship with Him, on whether the biblical description of an
ancient event is symbolic or not - I am concerned that people I care about
might reject the Holy Ghost over it though.

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RE: [ZION] Bible vs the Scientists

[Jim Cobabe]

This discussion by Stephen Robinson applies with equal validity to 
questions about the historical accuracy of the Bible...

Naturalistic explanations are often useful in evaluating empirical data, 
but when the question asked involves non-empirical categories, such as 
"Is the Book of Mormon what it purports to be?", it begs the question to 
adopt a method whose first assumption is that the Book cannot be what it 
claims to be. This points out a crucial logical difficulty in using this 
method in either attacking or defending the Church. When those with a 
naturalistic bias apply their "scholarship" to LDS literature and 
history, we usually assume that it is to test the prophetic claims of 
the Church. In fact there is never a test at all. There cannot be, for 
the naturalistically based assumptions of the method have determined 
before we even begin that divine claims cannot be accepted, and the 
critical scholar will already be looking for naturalistic explanations 
for his data. Or in the words of W. Wink:

In this case the carrying over of methods from the natural sciences has 
led to a situation where we no longer ask what we would like to know . . 
. Rather, we attempt to deal only with those complexes of facts which 
are amenable to historical method. We ask only those questions which the 
method can answer (9).

It seems to me that few LDS scholars really understand this. While they 
think they are engaged in "pure" scholarship, many are really 
methodological half-breeds, using the naturalistic method when it suits 
them and drawing upon their theology when it suits them, without ever 
stating where and how they draw the line. Opponents and proponents alike 
can use the fruits of empirical research in a selective way to defend 
the faith, but the authority of the historical-critical method is lost 
in so doing, and the final product lacks any real force, being merely 
opinion (mingled with scripture). Pure critical scholarship on the other 
hand is agnostic by definition, and its rules are by design stacked 
against theistic conclusions. It would be incredibly naive to believe 
that biblical criticism brings us closer to the Christ of faith. After 
200 years of refining its methods, biblical scholarship has despaired of 
knowing the real Jesus, except for a few crumbs, and has declared the 
Christ pictured in scripture to be a creation of the early Church (see 
the excellent summary in Perrin 207-48).


The Expanded Book of Mormon, Stephen Robinson essay; in Monte S. Nyman 
and Charles D. Tate, Jr., eds., Second Nephi: The Doctrinal Structure 
[Provo: BYU Religious Studies Center, 1989], 395.)

---
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[ZION] Mars Attacks

[John W. Redelfs]

Have any of you seen the comedy entitled Mars Attacks.  It is hilarious, 
and one of my favorite, recent films.

Congress is dissolved to mere skeletons and then dust.  And the White House 
is obliterated.

I can think of very little that would so improve our nation, and restore 
our ancient liberties.  Anyway, it was just a joke.  But I have dreamed of 
such a thing for so long, it was a sweet dream come true, even if it was 
just little computer animated Martians.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
Laurie got offended that I used the word "puke." But to
me, that's what her dinner tasted like. --Jack Handy
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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RE: [ZION] Bible vs the Scientists

[Steven Montgomery]

At 09:39 AM 11/7/2002, Jim cogently stated:


Seems to me that the contention in this discussion is mostly based on
semantic quibbling.

We're talking about written records of history.  Every incident and
story related in these records is entirely symbolic.  The words and
letters that comprise a written text or an oral narrative are symbols.
Thus it is entirely accurate to say that scriptures are "symbolic".

In this context, the argument between "literal" and "symbolic" or
"figurative" loses most of its edge.  It is academic that every bit of
information has to be processed and interpreted.  Scriptures are no
different.  Thus they might accurately be characterized as both
"symbolic" and "literal" at the same time.  This argument does nothing
to address the question of how we should approach the scriptural record.



I certainly believe that events written about in the Bible can be both 
actual literal events and yet symbolic at the same time. Why are we so 
hasty to assume that since there is no physical evidence that the walls of 
Jericho tumbled that the event didn't occur. The Twin Towers in New York 
also collapsed but today there is little evidence that the collapse took 
place. Are archeologists of the future going to claim that the twin towers 
collapse never really happened--that it was all symbolic, perhaps of 
America's corruption? The Apostle Paul apparently thought that events of 
the Bible could be both literal and symbolic:

(Galatians 4:22-26.)
22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the 
other by a freewoman.
23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the 
freewoman was by promise.
24 Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one 
from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which is Agar.
25 For this Agar is mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which 
now is, and is in bondage with her children.
26 But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.

Elder Bruce R. McConkie also stated in reference to the above scripture 
that the family makeup and life of Abraham was both literal (actually 
occurred) and symbolic of the two covenants (The Law of Moses and the New 
and Everlasting Covenant):

Paul here uses the life of Abraham as an allegory to dramatize the 
superiority of the gospel over the law of Moses—a mode of teaching designed 
to drive his doctrine home anew each time his hearers think of Abraham and 
his life.

Hagar, the bondwoman, bore Ishmael; and Sarah, the free—woman, brought 
forth Isaac. Ishmael was born after the flesh, while Isaac, as a child of 
promise, came forth after the Spirit. Hagar is thus made to represent the 
old covenant, the law of Moses, the covenant under which men were subject 
to the bondage of sin; while Sarah symbolizes the new covenant, the gospel, 
the covenant under which men are made free, free from bondage and sin 
through Christ.

Mt. Sinai, from whence the law came, and Jerusalem, from whence it is now 
administered, symbolize the law, and their children are in bondage. But the 
spiritual Jerusalem, the heavenly city of which the saints shall be 
citizens, is symbolized by Sarah, and she is the mother of freemen. Sarah, 
who was so long barren, as our spiritual mother, has now made us all, like 
Isaac, heirs of promise.

But it is now, as it was then, those born after the flesh war against those 
born of the Spirit. And as God rejected Ishmael and accepted Isaac, so does 
he now reject those who cleave to the law of Moses and accept those who 
turn to Christ.

The two covenants: The first is the old covenant, the law of Moses, the law 
of carnal commandments, the preparatory gospel, the covenant God made with 
Israel, through Moses, to prepare them for the second. The second is the 
new covenant, the everlasting covenant, the fulness of the gospel, the 
covenant God offers to make with all men, through Christ, to prepare them 
for the fulness of his glory. The old covenant was the lesser law, the new 
is the higher law. Moses was the mediator of the old covenant, standing 
between God and his people, pleading their cause, seeking to prepare them 
for the coming of their Messiah. Jesus is the mediator of the new covenant, 
standing between God and all men, pleading their cause, seeking to prepare 
them for that celestial inheritance reserved for the saints.
See Heb. 12:18-24.
(Bruce R. McConkie, Doctrinal New Testament Commentary, 3 vols. [Salt Lake 
City: Bookcraft, 1965-1973], 2: 478.)

In fact you could say that the "history" of Jacob and Esau, as well as 
Isaac and Ishmael are symbolic of the clash and conflict between Christ and 
Satan. Just because an event actually happened doesn't mean it can't also 
be highly symbolic--and vice versa.





--
Steven Montgomery
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Explore Freedom: http://www.geocities.com/graymada

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Re: [ZION] Mission Call

[Geoff FOWLER]

Not for her terrible experience and illness, but for the mission call.
:)
 
I am sure that she'll do a wonderful job and bless the Brazilian
people.
 
Geoff


>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/07/02 12:45PM >>>
Congratulations to her and your family.

Geoff

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/07/02 05:11AM >>>

My daughter got her mission call yesterday, to Sao Paulo.   She was
basking 
in the irony.  She had a terrible experience in Brasil this summer,
and

came back dreadfully ill and exhausted.

Till

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Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam

[John W. Redelfs]

After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with:

I basically believe we will attack and they in turn attack us.  We will 
then incite the entire Islamic world and all will turn against us.

This is the likely scenario from my perspective.  I wonder if either Russia 
or China have secret, mutual defense treaties with Saddam Hussein. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

[John W. Redelfs]

After much pondering, Jon Spencer favored us with:

You must be much more clear than you have been.  Again, I ask, what do you
mean by "moving on."  I can make lots of guesses, but you should know best
what you mean.  As an example of your lack of clarity, do you mean that we
are turning our backs to the Taliban and assuming that they no longer pose
any threat?  If that is what you mean, then you are clearly incorrect.  Or
perhaps you mean that addressing the Taliban would utilize all of our
resources.  Again, sadly, you would be incorrect.


I'll bet I understood him.  He meant lets win the first battle before we 
pick an other fight. Maybe he is harder for some people to understand than 
others. --JWR

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[ZION] Osama bin Laden

[John W. Redelfs]

Is everyone pretty convinced that Osama bin Laden is still alive?  If he 
is, maybe we should finish that part of the War on Terrorism before adding 
Saddam Hussein to the hit list.  --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

[John W. Redelfs]

After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with:

We are moving to other targets as if we have the Taliban licked.  We don't.


Oh, but we have achieved our real if unstated objective.  We have dropped a 
lot of very expensive bombs, and we have given George Bush wartime powers 
at the expense of our ancient liberties.  I think that Brother George was 
pretty darn successful even if he didn't nail Osama.

Do we really know for sure that Osama was behind the 9-11 attacks.  Just 
what is the evidence?


John W. Redelfs[EMAIL PROTECTED]
=
To me, clowns aren't funny.  In fact, they're kind of scary.
I've wondered where this started and I think it goes back to
the time I went to the circus, and a clown killed my dad.
--Jack Handy
=
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

[John W. Redelfs]

After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with:

>  And if they are false in this
> instance, they may be false in many others, perhaps most others.  And there
> goes my confidence in the scriptures.  Even the Book of Mormon has a
> disclaimer indicating that some things in it might contain human error.
>
> It is a matter of credibility.  Who are you going to believe?
>

False dichotomy.


So what is the true dichotomy in this instance?  --JWR

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Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

[Mark Gregson]

> Israelites?  In what way can it be said how willing and capable God is in
> helping you succeed in following His commandments?
> 
> Dan:
> They overcame the people of Jericho. I do not question that the city of
> Jericho, or the people of Jericho were destroyed by the Israelites. God
> promised that He would give that land to the Israelites if they would only
> follow His commandments. They moved in, conquered the people that were
> there, and God's promise was realized. _That's_ the principle, 

I'll answer Marc and Dan together here. Marc didn't address my questions but Dan does. 
 So, Marc, what's your take on the Red Sea, the walls of Jericho, et al?  Did they 
happen as described?

Dan's answer has a hint of "When the Israelites say they crossed over the Red Sea on 
dry ground while the Egyptians perished, what really happened is that the Israelites 
found a path around on the north but the Egyptians got bogged down in quicksand."  

Dan, if the Israelites conquered Jericho without the aid of a miracle as you hint, 
then in what way did God help them?  Didn't they just accomplish it all on their own?

I hope that isn't what you are trying to say, Dan and Marc.  If you really do believe 
that the Red Sea parted by the power of God, then I don't understand your point.  I 
already understand the symbolism and the principles taught by that actual events.  So 
I haven't disagreed with you.  I just haven't heard you say, "Yes, of course the 
actual event happened as described".  Instead, you seem to be waffling.

As to Marc's use of Hebrews 11:1 - we only have faith in real things even though we 
cannot see them.  So we really do need the events.  Happening is believing even if 
seeing isn't.

=  Mark Gregson  [EMAIL PROTECTED]  =

   
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Re: [ZION] Mission Call

[Geoff FOWLER]

Congratulations to her and your family.
 
Geoff

>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED] 11/07/02 05:11AM >>>

My daughter got her mission call yesterday, to Sao Paulo.   She was
basking 
in the irony.  She had a terrible experience in Brasil this summer, and

came back dreadfully ill and exhausted.

Till

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Re: [ZION] Mission Call

[Marc A. Schindler]

Oh, and I forgot: there's a mission alumni page, too, which she might find
informative: http://www.mission.net/brazil/sao-paulo/north/index.php

"Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote:

> At 11:39 11/7/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >At 08:24 11/7/2002 -0700, you wrote:
> >>Which mission in Sao Paulo, do you know?
> >>
> >>(for a map of the missions in Brazil, see:
> >>http://www.gatheringofisrael.com/atlas/latin_america/brazil/mbrazil.gif)
> >>To put things in perspective, there are 7 missions in Sao Paulo Estado
> >>alone, and
> >>only 8 in all of Canada.
> >
> >
> >I've made the inquiry and awaiting the reply.  BTW, the link didn't
> >work.  I can get to it through the menus OK though.
>
> Inquiry made --  Sao Paulo North
>
> Till
>
> /
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>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of "malleable truth"

[Marc A. Schindler]

I don't think so. This is something George III inherited from his Daddy, I'm
afraid. After all, the Clinton presidency pursued the USS Cole case with as much
vigour as any Republican president would have. But Clinton didn't need to turn it
into a domestic election issue.

Dan R Allen wrote:

> Stacy:
> The thing that gets me is this:  If we're all of a sudden so concerned
> about Saddam's nuclear and biological weapons abilities, why weren't we as
> concerned in 1992?
>
> Dan:
> Clinton

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Mission Call

[Marc A. Schindler]

In which case, the maps that would, roughly speaking, cover that mission are:
http://www.gatheringofisrael.com/atlas/latin_america/brazil/SP_cidade_north.gif
(City of Sao Paulo: north)
and part of
http://www.gatheringofisrael.com/atlas/latin_america/brazil/SP_cidade_east.gif
(City of Sao Paulo: east)
The Interlagos mission covers the northern suburbs, so I think the North Mission
is just from central Sao Paulo to the north side of the river, and a bit to the
east; the maps don't correspond directly with mission boundaries but just show
the stakes, with wards (black squares) and branches (yellow squares).

And of course, please pass along my congratulations. Brazilian Portuguese is one
of the most mellifluous languages I've ever heard.

"Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote:

> At 11:39 11/7/2002 -0500, you wrote:
> >At 08:24 11/7/2002 -0700, you wrote:
> >>Which mission in Sao Paulo, do you know?
> >>
> >>(for a map of the missions in Brazil, see:
> >>http://www.gatheringofisrael.com/atlas/latin_america/brazil/mbrazil.gif)
> >>To put things in perspective, there are 7 missions in Sao Paulo Estado
> >>alone, and
> >>only 8 in all of Canada.
> >
> >
> >I've made the inquiry and awaiting the reply.  BTW, the link didn't
> >work.  I can get to it through the menus OK though.
>
> Inquiry made --  Sao Paulo North
>
> Till
>
> /
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> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on” – Winston Churchill

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of "malleable truth"

[Dan R Allen]

Stacy:
The thing that gets me is this:  If we're all of a sudden so concerned
about Saddam's nuclear and biological weapons abilities, why weren't we as
concerned in 1992?

Dan:
Clinton

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RE: [ZION] Mission Call

[Jim Cobabe]

Brother Fairbank, what happy news.  Congratulations!

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Re: [ZION] Mission Call

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 11:39 11/7/2002 -0500, you wrote:

At 08:24 11/7/2002 -0700, you wrote:

Which mission in Sao Paulo, do you know?

(for a map of the missions in Brazil, see:
http://www.gatheringofisrael.com/atlas/latin_america/brazil/mbrazil.gif)
To put things in perspective, there are 7 missions in Sao Paulo Estado 
alone, and
only 8 in all of Canada.


I've made the inquiry and awaiting the reply.  BTW, the link didn't 
work.  I can get to it through the menus OK though.


Inquiry made --  Sao Paulo North

Till

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Re: [ZION] Mission Call

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 08:24 11/7/2002 -0700, you wrote:

Which mission in Sao Paulo, do you know?

(for a map of the missions in Brazil, see:
http://www.gatheringofisrael.com/atlas/latin_america/brazil/mbrazil.gif)
To put things in perspective, there are 7 missions in Sao Paulo Estado 
alone, and
only 8 in all of Canada.


I've made the inquiry and awaiting the reply.  BTW, the link didn't 
work.  I can get to it through the menus OK though.

Till

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RE: [ZION] Bible vs the Scientists

[Jim Cobabe]

Seems to me that the contention in this discussion is mostly based on 
semantic quibbling.

We're talking about written records of history.  Every incident and 
story related in these records is entirely symbolic.  The words and 
letters that comprise a written text or an oral narrative are symbols.  
Thus it is entirely accurate to say that scriptures are "symbolic".

In this context, the argument between "literal" and "symbolic" or 
"figurative" loses most of its edge.  It is academic that every bit of 
information has to be processed and interpreted.  Scriptures are no 
different.  Thus they might accurately be characterized as both 
"symbolic" and "literal" at the same time.  This argument does nothing 
to address the question of how we should approach the scriptural record.

We find the key to scripture interpretation within the scriptures 
themselves. 

"Scripture which is the mind, the will, and the word of the Lord can 
only be understood to the extent that our thought process is one with 
his. It has been properly said that it takes scripture to understand 
scripture, meaning it takes the Spirit to understand the things of the 
Spirit. Our faith must not be based, as the apostle Paul observed, in 
the wisdom of the world." (Joseph Fielding McConkie, Answers: 
Straightforward Answers to Tough Gospel Questions [Salt Lake City: 
Deseret Book Co., 1998], 194.)


"Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom 
of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

"But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, 
which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

"Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, 
they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

"But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have 
entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for 
them that love him.

"But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit 
searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

"For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which 
is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of 
God.

"Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which 
is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of 
God.

"Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom 
teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things 
with spiritual.

"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for 
they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they 
are spiritually discerned."  (1 Corinthians 2:6-14.)

Perhaps to believe the literalness of the scriptural story of the walls 
of Jericho appears to be foolishness unto some. I find no such attitude 
reflected in the teachings of inspired Church leaders.  There is no 
common idea expressed in counsel that we need to maintain a proper, 
scholarly and academic skepticism regarding our study of the scriptures. 
 Rather, it has been said a number of times that our scriptural canon is 
closed only because we fail to accept even that which we already have.  
 
"Now the Lord is  withholding from us a great many truths that he would 
gladly reveal if we were ready to receive them. Did you know that a 
portion of the record from which the Book of Mormon is taken is sealed? 
The Prophet was not permitted to break the seals, and we will not 
receive the sealed record until the time comes when the people will show 
by their faith their willingness to accept it.

"How many have read the Book of Mormon through? How many have made 
themselves familiar with the things revealed to us in the Doctrine and 
Covenants regarding what the Lord has said of our duties as members of 
the Church and what he has said regarding our salvation and exaltation 
and how it may be obtained? Until we are prepared to receive the things 
already given, I fear the Lord will hold from us those other things 
which one time will be revealed.

"If we had on record all that had been written by inspired historians, 
then we would have the truth concerning the gospel of Jesus Christ in 
such a way that it would astonish the world. Because of unbelief the 
Lord withdrew from the people many truths, and so they were left without 
the knowledge concerning the principles of the gospel and the true 
Church of Jesus Christ." (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, 
3 vols., edited by Bruce R. McConkie [Salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 
1954-1956], 3: 202.)

---
Mij Ebaboc

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of "malleable truth"

[Marc A. Schindler]

Jon Spencer wrote:

> Ahem, it is embarrassing when you dissimulate.  We bought oil through the
> oil for food program, wherein the money is carefully tracked.

By the U.N., which you seem not to trust.

> And you are
> not so stupid as to not know that I am talking about the other type of
> transactions that these countries agreed not to do.  Or am I incorrect in
> that assumption?
>

Probably, unless you can be more specific. The only countries I can think of that
are true sanctions busters aren't OECD countries.

>
> Jon
>
> Marc A. Schindler disemulated:
>
> Ahem. The US bought 795 million barrels of crude oil last year from Iraq.
> Don't
> blame Europe.
> (as opposed to 1,611 mb from Saudi Arabia, the largest supplier of crude,
> and
> 1,356 mb from Canada, the 3rd largest supplier of crude; Iraq was #6)
>
> /
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>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we don’t want
a world of engineers.” – Sir Winston Churchill (1950)

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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[ZION] James Ossuary

[Marc A. Schindler]

The ossuary's owner steps forward to tell his story:

Globe and Mail, Thursday, 07/11/02
<<http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021107/UOSSUN/Front/frontpage/frontpage_temp/1/1/5/>>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade;
character, not technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern
world, but we don’t want a world of engineers.” – Sir Winston Churchill
(1950)

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
author’s employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel

[Marc A. Schindler]

Come-on line in Biology 20: "Hi! My name's Marc. I'll pith your frog for you."
Worked with all the girls.

"Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote:

> At 21:54 11/6/2002 -0600, Gryy wrote:
> >Though your text book told you about biology, you still cut into that
> >frog in class. Why? To prove the statements in the book that a frog does
> >have heart, lungs, etc.
> >Each time you turn on a light switch, you do it with faith, because you
> >have previously tested the theory that it will normally turn on the
> >light. When the light doesn't come on, then new theories appear: the bulb
> >is broken, the power is out, the wiring is messed up, etc. To get this
> >fixed, we must test each possible answer until the evidence points us to
> >the correct one.
> >IN other words, we test theories out each and every day. Most are on
> >things that are not earth shattering.
>
> They are for the frog!
>
> Till the champion of the under-amphibian
>
> /
> ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> /
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we don’t want
a world of engineers.” – Sir Winston Churchill (1950)

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Fwd: The Brookings Update on Terrorism, 11/6/02

[Marc A. Schindler]

Sounds like a worthwhile newsletter. I'll have to look into it. I get Jane's Defence 
and Jane's
Security weekly briefings (the shortened, abstracts for non-subscribers -- I can't 
afford the £600 or
so annually that a full subscription costs).

Stacy Smith wrote:

> I thought all would like to see this report I have been getting since
> around 9/11.
>
> Stacy.
>
> >X-Mailer: Lyris ListManager Web Interface
> >Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 16:30:48 -0500
> >Subject: The Brookings Update on Terrorism, 11/6/02
> >To: "Update: Brookings Project on Terrorism"
> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >List-Unsubscribe:
> >
> >List-Subscribe:
> >
> >List-Owner: 
> >X-URL: 
> >Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> >==
> >THE BROOKINGS UPDATE ON TERRORISM
> >Wednesday, November 6, 2002
> >http://www.brookings.edu/terrorism
> >
> >The Brookings Update on Terrorism is a weekly advisory prepared by the
> >Brookings Institution's Project on America’s Response to Terrorism.  The
> >project presents an ongoing series of briefings on various aspects of the
> >crisis, analytical publications ranging from short 2,000-word papers to
> >full-length books, and a large and evolving section of the website
> >containing background resources, government documents, and archived video,
> >audio, and printed transcripts of Brookings events.
> >
> >
> >COMMENTARY
> >*
> >
> >What Should Japan Do Next in the War on Terror?
> >Michael O'Hanlon writes that he would be personally grateful if Japan
> >chose this moment to offer an even more impressive contribution to global
> >security.
> >http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/ohanlon/20021101.htm
> >
> >A Pas De Deux
> >Justin Vaisse argues that both countries need this resolution: France,
> >because a unilateral action would make the Security Council irrelevant,
> >and America, because an action seen as illegitimate would further
> >antagonize a world that increasingly tends to see it as a hegemon, not as
> >a leader.
> >http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/fellows/vaisse_20021103.htm
> >
> >
> >ARTICLES
> >*
> >
> >Does Saudi Arabia Still Matter? Differing Perspectives on the Kingdom and
> >Its Oil
> >Shibley Telhami and Fiona Hill argue that although events in the past year
> >have shown the need for profound political and economic reform in Saudi
> >Arabia, which would bolster the stability of the kingdom as well as the
> >global economy, the proposition that the Persian Gulf states and Saudi
> >Arabia are losing their significance for the United States misses the mark
> >on several issues.
> >A full copy of the Foreign Affairs article is available at:
> >http://www.brookings.edu/views/articles/hillf/20021101.htm
> >
> >
> >EVENTS
> >**
> >
> >Brookings Institution Dinner: General Richard B. Meyers, Chairman of the
> >Joint Chief of Staff
> >General Richard B. Meyers  visited the Brookings Institution on Monday,
> >November 4, 2002.  In his remarks, General Meyers discussed the role of
> >the U.S. military in the current strategic environment and the ways in
> >which the military plans to support President Bush’s National Security
> >Strategy.
> >A complete transcript of this event is available at:
> >http://www.brookings.edu/comm/events/20021104.pdf
> >
> >Brookings Press Briefing: The NATO Summit in Prague: Challenges to Bush
> >and the Alliance
> >President Bush leaves shortly for Prague to meet his fellow heads of state
> >from the NATO nations at one of the most important summit meetings in the
> >alliance's 53-year history.  The meeting comes at a time when some of
> >America's NATO allies notably France and Germany—are actively expressing
> >opposition to any American-led war to overthrow Saddam Hussein in Iraq.
> >Another NATO ally, England, supports strong American moves to rid Iraq of
> >weapons of mass destruction.  Despite this split over Iraq policy, the
> >NATO alliance has developed defense plans against terrorism, weapons of
> >mass destruction, and cyberattack, which will be unveiled at the Prague
> >summit. Additionally, the agenda calls for Bush and the other NATO leaders
> >to agree on a major modernization of allied military capabilities to deal
> >with threats in the twenty-first century, including creation of a new NATO
> >Response Force.  A large number of new members in Eastern Europe will be
> >admitted to membership in NATO at the Prague summit, continuing the
> >transformation of the alliance, which was originally created after World
> >War II as a bulwark against a Soviet invasion of Western Europe.  At the
> >briefing, James Steinberg, Vice President and D

Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of "malleable truth"

[Marc A. Schindler]

I wouldn't say laughingstock, but when you're an elephant in a world of mice, the
mice get nervous, even when the elephant is kindly disposed towards them.

There's an article in the latest Atlantic Monthly that is kind of related to this.
I don't go as far as the author does in his theme, which is that a renascent Europe
will eventually come to eclipse the US (I have a hard time seeing how that's going
to happen), but it's an interesting article nonetheless, and it's online:
http://www.theatlantic.com/issues/2002/11/kupchan.htm

Incidentally, on the same site are a series of articles, including a very
insightful one by James Fallows, on what would happen *after* an Iraqi war. It's
the cover article, in fact, showing Uncle Sam straining under the weight of a
smouldering "51st state".  There's also a hilarious comparison of "movie
presidents" (Alan Alda in Canadian Bacon is rated the worst).

Stacy Smith wrote:

> We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans,
> including me.
>
> Stacy.
>
> At 01:13 AM 11/07/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we don’t want a
world of engineers.” – Sir Winston Churchill (1950)

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor
those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of "malleable truth"

[Stacy Smith]

No, I am not laughing at LDS as you suppose.  I am laughing at American 
leadership.

Stacy.

At 09:35 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote:

Of course!  I understood you completely.  My statement still stands.  What a
narrow view of the charter of our church to think that we only desire to
bring happiness to the select few! :-)

Jon

Stacy Smith wrote:

> I didn't mean LDS; I meant us as a larger part of Americans.
>
> Stacy.
>
> At 07:43 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >Then there is ample justification in doing what we do!  After all,
bringing
> >happiness to the world is an important role.
> >
> >Jon
> >
> >Stacy Smith said with great mirth:
> >
> >We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans,
> >including me.
> >
> >Stacy.

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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

[Stacy Smith]

I am implying that we have only left the job half done if we leave the 
Taliban any room to start over again and form another government anywhere.

Stacy.

At 09:42 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote:

You must be much more clear than you have been.  Again, I ask, what do you
mean by "moving on."  I can make lots of guesses, but you should know best
what you mean.  As an example of your lack of clarity, do you mean that we
are turning our backs to the Taliban and assuming that they no longer pose
any threat?  If that is what you mean, then you are clearly incorrect.  Or
perhaps you mean that addressing the Taliban would utilize all of our
resources.  Again, sadly, you would be incorrect.  Or perhaps you mean that
al Qaeda and the Taliban are one, and that it was the Taliban who killed our
people, and not al Qaeda.  Yet again, you would be wrong.

And since I must assume that you are positing a carefully thought our
opinion, I must assume that I do not understand what you are saying or
implying.

Jon

Stacy Smith wrote:

> We are moving to other targets as if we have the Taliban licked.  We
don't.
>
> Stacy.
>
> At 07:30 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >OK, I'll bite.  What should we do?  And why do you think we are "moving
on"
> >(could you define that please?)?
> >
> >Jon
> >
> >Stacy Smith wrote:
> >
> >My point still holds even if they are no longer in Afghanistan.  Why are
we
> >moving on?

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Re: [ZION] War Against All of Islam

[Stacy Smith]

I basically believe we will attack and they in turn attack us.  We will 
then incite the entire Islamic world and all will turn against us.

Stacy.

At 04:47 AM 11/07/2002 -0900, you wrote:

After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with:

Of course, no one here on this list, including myself, can tell you what
will be the short and long term outcome of acting or not acting.  I believe
that he is a continuing threat to our way of life, along with quite a few
other gangsters.  Others believe otherwise.


I think there is bad news coming down the pipeline whether we go to war 
with Iraq or not.  If we do nothing, we will be seen as week and impotent 
by many nations around the world who have no respect for anything except 
the raised fist.  This would undoubted would lead to war as those attack 
us around the world as they rush to take advantage of what they perceive 
as our unwillingness to defend ourselves.  And if we do go to war with 
Iraq, Saddam Hussein is going to use weapons of mass destruction on us 
right here in America.  I'm talking germs, gas, and nukes.  I believe he 
already has these weapons.  He probably imports them from China or Russia.

So we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.  Could we have foreseen 
this and avoided the situation?  Yes, at one time.  But now we are sucked 
into a situation that we cannot control in which anything we do is going 
to cause us great pain.

Here is my predication, actually just a speculation:

We will invade Iraq?  It will attack us here, using ABC weapons detonated 
by agents already in place.  We will end up fighting by ourselves against 
the whole Islamic world.  And we will win, but at a horrendous cost in 
lives and materiel.  The only bright spot is that following such a 
victory, the Islamic would be opened to our missionaries.

Still, even though I think this is the most likely scenario, I don't think 
it is a good idea to invade Iran because they are the villains, not 
us.  It is too bad we got into the this pickle, but I don't see any way out.

If it is any consolation to anyone, I am usually wrong when I make these 
prognostications.  I hope I'm wrong on this one too.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients.  But we
can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is
what annoys me. --Jack Handy
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Mission Call

[Marc A. Schindler]

Which mission in Sao Paulo, do you know?

(for a map of the missions in Brazil, see:
http://www.gatheringofisrael.com/atlas/latin_america/brazil/mbrazil.gif)
To put things in perspective, there are 7 missions in Sao Paulo Estado alone, and
only 8 in all of Canada.

"Elmer L. Fairbank" wrote:

> My daughter got her mission call yesterday, to Sao Paulo.   She was basking
> in the irony.  She had a terrible experience in Brasil this summer, and
> came back dreadfully ill and exhausted.
>
> Till
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we don’t want
a world of engineers.” – Sir Winston Churchill (1950)

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Bible vs the Scientists

[Marc A. Schindler]

I appreciate your experience. Just don't think it's such a black and white issue.
We've been told in a number of places in the scriptures that we don't know
everything yet, and may have to exercise patience. In the meantime, we are free
to compare speculations, so long as we do not harm the faith of another. And for
every "intellectual" I see intellectualizing himself out of a testimony, I see an
"iron-rodder" putting a young science student in an impossible position, when
there's no need for that to happen.

"John W. Redelfs" wrote:

> After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with:
> > > John,
> > > The difference is that we have many GAs who have told us that portions of
> > > the Bible ARE symbolic. That leaves the Bible's historicity at least
> > > partially in question. Meanwhile, they have all told us that the BoM is
> > > literal.  Signaturi don't want to believe that any scripture is
> > > historically based. We believe all of the BoM is, and much (if not most)
> > > of the Bible is.  Marc and I are consistent with what the GAs have taught
> > > on these books. We haven't stated definitively that Joshua never was at
> > > Jericho, but only that there are discrepancies with current science.
> >
> >Furthermore, I would add that it doesn't matter. Brigham Young referred to
> >"baby
> >stories" in the Bible, assuming that there is a more transcendent way of
> >understanding them than as mere history.
>
> My father was a medical doctor and an atheist.  Still, he had read enough
> history to know how important religion was in the development of western
> civilization, and he approved of religion.  While he was not a believer, he
> considered this a failing in himself.  And for years he tried to "get
> religion."
>
> On one occasion, he decided to join a church but he didn't know what church
> was right.  Therefore he devised a test that he could administer to all the
> churches in the El Paso, Texas area.  And he went about the town asking
> each clergyman how he explained the tale of Jonah.  As a medical doctor he
> pointed out that 1) there would be insufficient oxygen, and 2) the gastric
> juices would have digested Jonah.
>
> Well, each pastor he talked to tried to explain the story to him.  Finally
> he found an Episcopal priest who told him the answer he was looking
> for.  The story never really happened, you see.  It was a story or fable
> included in scripture to demonstrate that it is impossible to hide from God.
>
> My dad had found the "scientific" pastor he was looking for, so he became
> an Episcopalian.  He attended church two or three times, and that was
> that.  You see, he was an atheist, and he couldn't keep his enthusiasm up.
>
> Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that some of this kind of
> thinking is coming through in these discussions.  I don't mean that anyone
> here is an atheist, just that some find it easier to believe that stories
> are allegories and fables than to believe they were "miracles," albeit all
> miracles are merely phenomenon that are not yet understood.
>
> I cannot accept the Bible as scripture if it is merely a collection of folk
> tales, not even if those folk tales illustrate and teach true, inspired
> principles.  I demand that the Bible be "true."  This doesn't mean that it
> has to be without error, merely that parables and fables be labeled as
> such, as was the case in the parables of Jesus.
>
> You see, I grew up a chip off the old block.  And my father thought that
> all religion was a fable or extended allegory.  If he was right, which I
> have never believed, then there is no foundation to my faith.
>
> I am not one of the "born agains" that insists the Bible is complete, and
> perfectly accurate even to the punctuation.  I believe that much of the
> Bible is allegorical.  So then my challenge is to figure out which stories
> are mere figures of speech and which stories are actual events that took
> place anciently.  And for the purpose of my own religious faith, I have
> chosen to believe as literal all but those stories that are obviously
> figurative.  I choose to err on the side of belief rather than on the side
> of unbelief.  I am a true believer.
>
> And it is a good thing too.  Because the story of the First Vision
> certainly sounds like an allegory or story told to illustrate a
> principle.  But if one denies the literal nature of that story, he might as
> well turn in his temple recommend and ask for his name to be removed from
> the records.  Because the whole legitimacy of the Church of Jesus Christ of
> Latter-day Saints rests upon that claim being literal as President Hinckley
> so eloquently pointed out in his opening talk to the Sunday afternoon
> session of the General Conference.  Unless the First Vision literally
> happened then Joseph Smith was a false prophet and the Church is a complete
> fraud.
>
> And by the same token, there are stories told in the Bible that would prove
> all of Judeo-Christianity to be 

Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel

[Marc A. Schindler]

Ah, sorry. Gotcha. Well, this is certainly true! What some see as a talent, others
see as a problem, I guess. What do you do when you're confronted with a situation
like this? My reaction, when I was young and precocious, was just to clam up and
become rather reserved, because I never knew how what I said would be taken (a
lesson I have yet to master, incidentally). How do you react?

Stacy Smith wrote:

> I was trying to make points that not everyone appreciates the talents we
> may already have.
>
> Stacy.
>
> At 01:04 AM 11/07/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >That's why I included "opportunities" as part of the list. You have to
> >make due
> >with limitations placed on your talents, and "lack of opportunity" is the
> >flip side
> >of opportunity. Why do we have proportionately fewer serious music
> >composers today
> >than in the 18th and early 19th century, for example? Fewer talented people?
> >
> >Stacy Smith wrote:
> >
> > > What are we to do if our talents are being hindered?
> > >
> > > Stacy.
> > >
> > > At 07:58 PM 11/05/2002 -0700, you wrote:
> > >
> > > >This is true. Each has their own challenges, opportunities, talents,
> > gifts and
> > > >assignments in life. This is what I get from what Paul says in I
> > > >Corinthians 13.
> > > >YOUR challenge and MY challenge are to use those to the best of our
> > > >advantage. I
> > > >learned a very interesting lesson recently. I've been going through a
> > > >great deal
> > > >of physical pain due to some neurological problems (among other things
> > I had a
> > > >blood clot on the brain, between the surface and the lining of the brain,
> > > >called a
> > > >subdural haematoma, which they say is one of the most painful things a
> > > >person can
> > > >experience, along with childbirth and kidney stones). A neuropsychologist
> > > >(who is
> > > >a diagnostician, not a counsellor) told me that I would probably have this
> > > >difficulty, due to brain damage in the parietal pre-frontal lobe of my
> > > >brain, for
> > > >quite some time, and I had to learn to separate pain itself, which I
> > can't do
> > > >anything about (beyond analgaesic relief) and "suffering" which he defined
> > > >as my
> > > >reaction to pain. He told me to take more "social risks" and if I have a
> > > >seizure
> > > >in public, well, so what of it? Other people's reaction to it is their
> > > >problem.
> > > >
> > > >Now let's turn that around. If you have a talent, you have a
> > responsibility to
> > > >magnify it. Other people, who may not have that talent, should not envy
> > > >you for
> > > >it, but should be glad for you, and should not react negatively when you
> > > >succeed
> > > >in that area. We put a lot of barriers in our own way, and often attempt
> > > >to put
> > > >barriers in other people's lives, too. Don't let anyone put barriers in
> > > >your way.
> > > >
> > > >And what I've said goes for Gary, too. I'm sure I'm not telling any of you
> > > >anything you don't already know, but this is by way of encouragement.
> > > >
> > > >Stacy Smith wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Not all of us are required to prove theories.
> > > > >
> > > > > Stacy.
> > > > >
> > > > > At 03:55 PM 11/04/2002 -0900, you wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > >After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with:
> > > > > >>No, it is postulating a theory. Once a theory is set out for all
> > to read,
> > > > > >>then it is up to the rest of us to disprove the theory by testing it
> > > > > >>against known evidences. That does not yet make it a fact, as future
> > > > > >>evidence can always refute a theory. Without theories, we would not
> > > > > >>advance in science or knowledge. The danger comes when we convince
> > > > > >>ourselves that a theory is a fact, when in fact, it isn't.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >So basically what you are saying is that I can forward any way out
> > weird
> > > > > >theory, maybe like something that Velikovsky or von Daniken might
> > write,
> > > > > >and the burden of proof is on us to use evidence to showing how wrong
> > > > > >headed my theory is.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >I disagree that a person can responsibly postulate a theory and then
> > > > > >expect it to be accepted unless someone can disprove it.  Even a
> > theory
> > > > > >needs to be supported with some kind of evidence.  Otherwise it
> > isn't even
> > > > > >a theory, just a wild speculation.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > > > >===
> > > > > >You know what would make a good story?  Something
> > > > > >about a clown who make people happy, but inside he's
> > > > > >real sad. Also, he has severe diarrhea. --Jack Handy
> > > > > >===
> > > > > >All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
> > > > > >
> > > > > >///
> > 
> > > > //
> > > > > >///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> 

Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of "malleable truth"

[John W. Redelfs]

After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with:

We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans, 
including me.

It is hard to imagine who our dignity could be any further ravaged than it 
already is, thanks to Bill Clinton and Monica Lewinsky.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
You know what would make a good story?  Something
about a clown who make people happy, but inside he's
real sad. Also, he has severe diarrhea. --Jack Handy
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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[ZION] War Against All of Islam

[John W. Redelfs]

After much pondering, Stacy Smith favored us with:

Of course, no one here on this list, including myself, can tell you what
will be the short and long term outcome of acting or not acting.  I believe
that he is a continuing threat to our way of life, along with quite a few
other gangsters.  Others believe otherwise.


I think there is bad news coming down the pipeline whether we go to war 
with Iraq or not.  If we do nothing, we will be seen as week and impotent 
by many nations around the world who have no respect for anything except 
the raised fist.  This would undoubted would lead to war as those attack us 
around the world as they rush to take advantage of what they perceive as 
our unwillingness to defend ourselves.  And if we do go to war with Iraq, 
Saddam Hussein is going to use weapons of mass destruction on us right here 
in America.  I'm talking germs, gas, and nukes.  I believe he already has 
these weapons.  He probably imports them from China or Russia.

So we are damned if we do and damned if we don't.  Could we have foreseen 
this and avoided the situation?  Yes, at one time.  But now we are sucked 
into a situation that we cannot control in which anything we do is going to 
cause us great pain.

Here is my predication, actually just a speculation:

We will invade Iraq?  It will attack us here, using ABC weapons detonated 
by agents already in place.  We will end up fighting by ourselves against 
the whole Islamic world.  And we will win, but at a horrendous cost in 
lives and materiel.  The only bright spot is that following such a victory, 
the Islamic would be opened to our missionaries.

Still, even though I think this is the most likely scenario, I don't think 
it is a good idea to invade Iran because they are the villains, not us.  It 
is too bad we got into the this pickle, but I don't see any way out.

If it is any consolation to anyone, I am usually wrong when I make these 
prognostications.  I hope I'm wrong on this one too.


John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
We tend to scoff at the beliefs of the ancients.  But we
can't scoff at them personally, to their faces, and this is
what annoys me. --Jack Handy
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Bible vs the Scientists

[John W. Redelfs]

After much pondering, Marc A. Schindler favored us with:

> John,
> The difference is that we have many GAs who have told us that portions of
> the Bible ARE symbolic. That leaves the Bible's historicity at least
> partially in question. Meanwhile, they have all told us that the BoM is
> literal.  Signaturi don't want to believe that any scripture is
> historically based. We believe all of the BoM is, and much (if not most)
> of the Bible is.  Marc and I are consistent with what the GAs have taught
> on these books. We haven't stated definitively that Joshua never was at
> Jericho, but only that there are discrepancies with current science.

Furthermore, I would add that it doesn't matter. Brigham Young referred to 
"baby
stories" in the Bible, assuming that there is a more transcendent way of
understanding them than as mere history.

My father was a medical doctor and an atheist.  Still, he had read enough 
history to know how important religion was in the development of western 
civilization, and he approved of religion.  While he was not a believer, he 
considered this a failing in himself.  And for years he tried to "get 
religion."

On one occasion, he decided to join a church but he didn't know what church 
was right.  Therefore he devised a test that he could administer to all the 
churches in the El Paso, Texas area.  And he went about the town asking 
each clergyman how he explained the tale of Jonah.  As a medical doctor he 
pointed out that 1) there would be insufficient oxygen, and 2) the gastric 
juices would have digested Jonah.

Well, each pastor he talked to tried to explain the story to him.  Finally 
he found an Episcopal priest who told him the answer he was looking 
for.  The story never really happened, you see.  It was a story or fable 
included in scripture to demonstrate that it is impossible to hide from God.

My dad had found the "scientific" pastor he was looking for, so he became 
an Episcopalian.  He attended church two or three times, and that was 
that.  You see, he was an atheist, and he couldn't keep his enthusiasm up.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that some of this kind of 
thinking is coming through in these discussions.  I don't mean that anyone 
here is an atheist, just that some find it easier to believe that stories 
are allegories and fables than to believe they were "miracles," albeit all 
miracles are merely phenomenon that are not yet understood.

I cannot accept the Bible as scripture if it is merely a collection of folk 
tales, not even if those folk tales illustrate and teach true, inspired 
principles.  I demand that the Bible be "true."  This doesn't mean that it 
has to be without error, merely that parables and fables be labeled as 
such, as was the case in the parables of Jesus.

You see, I grew up a chip off the old block.  And my father thought that 
all religion was a fable or extended allegory.  If he was right, which I 
have never believed, then there is no foundation to my faith.

I am not one of the "born agains" that insists the Bible is complete, and 
perfectly accurate even to the punctuation.  I believe that much of the 
Bible is allegorical.  So then my challenge is to figure out which stories 
are mere figures of speech and which stories are actual events that took 
place anciently.  And for the purpose of my own religious faith, I have 
chosen to believe as literal all but those stories that are obviously 
figurative.  I choose to err on the side of belief rather than on the side 
of unbelief.  I am a true believer.

And it is a good thing too.  Because the story of the First Vision 
certainly sounds like an allegory or story told to illustrate a 
principle.  But if one denies the literal nature of that story, he might as 
well turn in his temple recommend and ask for his name to be removed from 
the records.  Because the whole legitimacy of the Church of Jesus Christ of 
Latter-day Saints rests upon that claim being literal as President Hinckley 
so eloquently pointed out in his opening talk to the Sunday afternoon 
session of the General Conference.  Unless the First Vision literally 
happened then Joseph Smith was a false prophet and the Church is a complete 
fraud.

And by the same token, there are stories told in the Bible that would prove 
all of Judeo-Christianity to be a great fraud except the stories be 
literal.  If we throw out all that is not scientifically plausible, we 
thrown out the very heart of our faith.

John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
===
"Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described
intellectuals" --Uncle Bob
===
All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR

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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

[Jon Spencer]

You must be much more clear than you have been.  Again, I ask, what do you
mean by "moving on."  I can make lots of guesses, but you should know best
what you mean.  As an example of your lack of clarity, do you mean that we
are turning our backs to the Taliban and assuming that they no longer pose
any threat?  If that is what you mean, then you are clearly incorrect.  Or
perhaps you mean that addressing the Taliban would utilize all of our
resources.  Again, sadly, you would be incorrect.  Or perhaps you mean that
al Qaeda and the Taliban are one, and that it was the Taliban who killed our
people, and not al Qaeda.  Yet again, you would be wrong.

And since I must assume that you are positing a carefully thought our
opinion, I must assume that I do not understand what you are saying or
implying.

Jon

Stacy Smith wrote:

> We are moving to other targets as if we have the Taliban licked.  We
don't.
>
> Stacy.
>
> At 07:30 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >OK, I'll bite.  What should we do?  And why do you think we are "moving
on"
> >(could you define that please?)?
> >
> >Jon
> >
> >Stacy Smith wrote:
> >
> >My point still holds even if they are no longer in Afghanistan.  Why are
we
> >moving on?

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of "malleable truth"

[Jon Spencer]

And as we are taught by the Lord, I am turning that scorn into a blessing to
the world!

Jon

Stacy Smith wrote:

> P.S.:  I meant that remark rather scornfully.
>
> Stacy.
>
> At 07:43 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >Then there is ample justification in doing what we do!  After all,
bringing
> >happiness to the world is an important role.
> >
> >Jon
> >
> >Stacy Smith said with great mirth:
> >
> >We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans,
> >including me.

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of "malleable truth"

[Jon Spencer]

Of course!  I understood you completely.  My statement still stands.  What a
narrow view of the charter of our church to think that we only desire to
bring happiness to the select few! :-)

Jon

Stacy Smith wrote:

> I didn't mean LDS; I meant us as a larger part of Americans.
>
> Stacy.
>
> At 07:43 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>
> >Then there is ample justification in doing what we do!  After all,
bringing
> >happiness to the world is an important role.
> >
> >Jon
> >
> >Stacy Smith said with great mirth:
> >
> >We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans,
> >including me.
> >
> >Stacy.

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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

[Stacy Smith]

We are moving to other targets as if we have the Taliban licked.  We don't.

Stacy.

At 07:30 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote:


OK, I'll bite.  What should we do?  And why do you think we are "moving on"
(could you define that please?)?

Jon

Stacy Smith wrote:

My point still holds even if they are no longer in Afghanistan.  Why are we
moving on?

Stacy.

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of "malleable truth"

[Stacy Smith]

P.S.:  I meant that remark rather scornfully.

Stacy.

At 07:43 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote:


Then there is ample justification in doing what we do!  After all, bringing
happiness to the world is an important role.

Jon

Stacy Smith said with great mirth:

We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans,
including me.

Stacy.

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of "malleable truth"

[Stacy Smith]

I didn't mean LDS; I meant us as a larger part of Americans.

Stacy.

At 07:43 AM 11/07/2002 -0500, you wrote:


Then there is ample justification in doing what we do!  After all, bringing
happiness to the world is an important role.

Jon

Stacy Smith said with great mirth:

We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans,
including me.

Stacy.

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Re: [ZION] Mission Call

[Jon Spencer]

The Lord knows what He is doing.  Your daughter has now acquired all of the
immunities she needs to perform an excellent job, just like her Dad would
do.

Thank her for her willingness to serve!

Jon

Till wrote:
>
> My daughter got her mission call yesterday, to Sao Paulo.   She was
basking
> in the irony.  She had a terrible experience in Brasil this summer, and
> came back dreadfully ill and exhausted.

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of "malleable truth"

[Jon Spencer]

Then there is ample justification in doing what we do!  After all, bringing
happiness to the world is an important role.

Jon

Stacy Smith said with great mirth:

We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans,
including me.

Stacy.

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of "malleable truth"

[Jon Spencer]

Ahem, it is embarrassing when you dissimulate.  We bought oil through the
oil for food program, wherein the money is carefully tracked.  And you are
not so stupid as to not know that I am talking about the other type of
transactions that these countries agreed not to do.  Or am I incorrect in
that assumption?

Jon

Marc A. Schindler disemulated:


Ahem. The US bought 795 million barrels of crude oil last year from Iraq.
Don't
blame Europe.
(as opposed to 1,611 mb from Saudi Arabia, the largest supplier of crude,
and
1,356 mb from Canada, the 3rd largest supplier of crude; Iraq was #6)

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Re: [ZION] Taliban in Pakistan

[Jon Spencer]

OK, I'll bite.  What should we do?  And why do you think we are "moving on"
(could you define that please?)?

Jon

Stacy Smith wrote:

My point still holds even if they are no longer in Afghanistan.  Why are we
moving on?

Stacy.

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of "malleable truth"

[Jon Spencer]

NOW we're in the spirit of things!  :-)

Noj

Stacy Smith wrote:

> Maybe not so rhetorical as really sarcastic.
> 
> Stacy.

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[ZION] Mission Call

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

My daughter got her mission call yesterday, to Sao Paulo.   She was basking 
in the irony.  She had a terrible experience in Brasil this summer, and 
came back dreadfully ill and exhausted.

Till

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Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel

[Elmer L. Fairbank]

At 21:54 11/6/2002 -0600, Gryy wrote:

Though your text book told you about biology, you still cut into that
frog in class. Why? To prove the statements in the book that a frog does
have heart, lungs, etc.
Each time you turn on a light switch, you do it with faith, because you
have previously tested the theory that it will normally turn on the
light. When the light doesn't come on, then new theories appear: the bulb
is broken, the power is out, the wiring is messed up, etc. To get this
fixed, we must test each possible answer until the evidence points us to
the correct one.
IN other words, we test theories out each and every day. Most are on
things that are not earth shattering.



They are for the frog!


Till the champion of the under-amphibian

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[ZION] Fwd: The Brookings Update on Terrorism, 11/6/02

[Stacy Smith]

I thought all would like to see this report I have been getting since 
around 9/11.

Stacy.

X-Mailer: Lyris ListManager Web Interface
Date: Wed, 6 Nov 2002 16:30:48 -0500
Subject: The Brookings Update on Terrorism, 11/6/02
To: "Update: Brookings Project on Terrorism" 
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==
THE BROOKINGS UPDATE ON TERRORISM
Wednesday, November 6, 2002
http://www.brookings.edu/terrorism

The Brookings Update on Terrorism is a weekly advisory prepared by the
Brookings Institution's Project on America’s Response to Terrorism.  The
project presents an ongoing series of briefings on various aspects of the
crisis, analytical publications ranging from short 2,000-word papers to
full-length books, and a large and evolving section of the website
containing background resources, government documents, and archived video,
audio, and printed transcripts of Brookings events.


COMMENTARY
*

What Should Japan Do Next in the War on Terror?
Michael O'Hanlon writes that he would be personally grateful if Japan
chose this moment to offer an even more impressive contribution to global
security.
http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/ohanlon/20021101.htm

A Pas De Deux
Justin Vaisse argues that both countries need this resolution: France,
because a unilateral action would make the Security Council irrelevant,
and America, because an action seen as illegitimate would further
antagonize a world that increasingly tends to see it as a hegemon, not as
a leader.
http://www.brookings.edu/views/op-ed/fellows/vaisse_20021103.htm


ARTICLES
*

Does Saudi Arabia Still Matter? Differing Perspectives on the Kingdom and
Its Oil
Shibley Telhami and Fiona Hill argue that although events in the past year
have shown the need for profound political and economic reform in Saudi
Arabia, which would bolster the stability of the kingdom as well as the
global economy, the proposition that the Persian Gulf states and Saudi
Arabia are losing their significance for the United States misses the mark
on several issues.
A full copy of the Foreign Affairs article is available at:
http://www.brookings.edu/views/articles/hillf/20021101.htm


EVENTS
**

Brookings Institution Dinner: General Richard B. Meyers, Chairman of the
Joint Chief of Staff
General Richard B. Meyers  visited the Brookings Institution on Monday,
November 4, 2002.  In his remarks, General Meyers discussed the role of
the U.S. military in the current strategic environment and the ways in
which the military plans to support President Bush’s National Security
Strategy.
A complete transcript of this event is available at:
http://www.brookings.edu/comm/events/20021104.pdf

Brookings Press Briefing: The NATO Summit in Prague: Challenges to Bush
and the Alliance
President Bush leaves shortly for Prague to meet his fellow heads of state
from the NATO nations at one of the most important summit meetings in the
alliance's 53-year history.  The meeting comes at a time when some of
America's NATO allies notably France and Germany—are actively expressing
opposition to any American-led war to overthrow Saddam Hussein in Iraq.
Another NATO ally, England, supports strong American moves to rid Iraq of
weapons of mass destruction.  Despite this split over Iraq policy, the
NATO alliance has developed defense plans against terrorism, weapons of
mass destruction, and cyberattack, which will be unveiled at the Prague
summit. Additionally, the agenda calls for Bush and the other NATO leaders
to agree on a major modernization of allied military capabilities to deal
with threats in the twenty-first century, including creation of a new NATO
Response Force.  A large number of new members in Eastern Europe will be
admitted to membership in NATO at the Prague summit, continuing the
transformation of the alliance, which was originally created after World
War II as a bulwark against a Soviet invasion of Western Europe.  At the
briefing, James Steinberg, Vice President and Director of Foreign Policy
Studies; Ivo H. Daalder, Senior Fellow; and Philip H. Gordon, Senior
Fellow, will examine these and other issues that President Bush will
confront in Prague. The discussion will be moderated by the President of
the Brookings Institution, Strobe Talbott.
Please consult the following link for event registration information:
http://www.brookings.edu/comm/event_reg/event_regform.htm



IRAQ MEMO

Getting Paris on Board
Whether France ultimately does sanction a war on Iraq will dep

Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

[Stacy Smith]

Another thing to contemplate if the higher critics haven't gotten around to 
this one, let me be the first higher critic of one of them to show how 
preposterous some of the tales can be and yet I ought to have my head 
examined for believing it because I have believed these individuals to be 
real individuals.

Can you really imagine Jacob fooling his father like that and getting away 
with it for even five minutes?  I must admit I have a hard time of 
it.  Anybody must realize that the smell of animal hair is quite different 
than the actual man's odor.  Makes me wonder if this isn't symbolic 
too?  How about Leah being given instead of Rachel on Jacob's first wedding 
night?  The same objection.  How could he have been fooled so easily?  Her 
voice, her mannerisms, etc.  I am having a lot of trouble buying both of 
these stories completely.

Stacy.

At 01:13 AM 11/07/2002 -0700, you wrote:

Then stay away from it. There are other ways to learn.

Stacy Smith wrote:

> I've read some of the higher criticism and don't really appreciate or 
like it.
>
> Stacy.
>

--

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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of "malleable truth"

[Stacy Smith]

We are surely the laughingstock of the world and also many Americans, 
including me.

Stacy.

At 01:13 AM 11/07/2002 -0700, you wrote:



Jon Spencer wrote:

> We didn't want to upset the UN, now, did we?
>
> Actually, we did have an agreement with Iraq to implement full inspections,
> and he did agree to get rid of all of the Iraqi WoMM, although I can't tell
> you why we believed him.  But certainly, we can't now.
>
> We are now more concerned because he has had quite some time to implement
> more weapons outside of our ability to inspect, and he has quite a bit of
> money to do so, given the trade he has with our European "allies" in 
the UN.
>

Ahem. The US bought 795 million barrels of crude oil last year from Iraq. 
Don't
blame Europe.
(as opposed to 1,611 mb from Saudi Arabia, the largest supplier of crude, and
1,356 mb from Canada, the 3rd largest supplier of crude; Iraq was #6)
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; 
character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we 
don’t want
a world of engineers.” ­ Sir Winston Churchill (1950)

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s 
employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

/
///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
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/





---
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Re: [ZION] George III continues the tradition of "malleable truth"

[Marc A. Schindler]

Jon Spencer wrote:

> We didn't want to upset the UN, now, did we?
>
> Actually, we did have an agreement with Iraq to implement full inspections,
> and he did agree to get rid of all of the Iraqi WoMM, although I can't tell
> you why we believed him.  But certainly, we can't now.
>
> We are now more concerned because he has had quite some time to implement
> more weapons outside of our ability to inspect, and he has quite a bit of
> money to do so, given the trade he has with our European "allies" in the UN.
>

Ahem. The US bought 795 million barrels of crude oil last year from Iraq. Don't
blame Europe.
(as opposed to 1,611 mb from Saudi Arabia, the largest supplier of crude, and
1,356 mb from Canada, the 3rd largest supplier of crude; Iraq was #6)
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we don’t want
a world of engineers.” – Sir Winston Churchill (1950)

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer,
nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

/
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///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
/

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Re: [ZION] scriptures are not secular?

[Marc A. Schindler]

Then stay away from it. There are other ways to learn.

Stacy Smith wrote:

> I've read some of the higher criticism and don't really appreciate or like it.
>
> Stacy.
>

--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

“The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade; character, not
technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but we don’t want a
world of engineers.” – Sir Winston Churchill (1950)

Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author
solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author’s employer, nor
those of any organization with which the author may be associated.

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Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel

[Stacy Smith]

I was trying to make points that not everyone appreciates the talents we 
may already have.

Stacy.

At 01:04 AM 11/07/2002 -0700, you wrote:

That's why I included "opportunities" as part of the list. You have to 
make due
with limitations placed on your talents, and "lack of opportunity" is the 
flip side
of opportunity. Why do we have proportionately fewer serious music 
composers today
than in the 18th and early 19th century, for example? Fewer talented people?

Stacy Smith wrote:

> What are we to do if our talents are being hindered?
>
> Stacy.
>
> At 07:58 PM 11/05/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >This is true. Each has their own challenges, opportunities, talents, 
gifts and
> >assignments in life. This is what I get from what Paul says in I
> >Corinthians 13.
> >YOUR challenge and MY challenge are to use those to the best of our
> >advantage. I
> >learned a very interesting lesson recently. I've been going through a
> >great deal
> >of physical pain due to some neurological problems (among other things 
I had a
> >blood clot on the brain, between the surface and the lining of the brain,
> >called a
> >subdural haematoma, which they say is one of the most painful things a
> >person can
> >experience, along with childbirth and kidney stones). A neuropsychologist
> >(who is
> >a diagnostician, not a counsellor) told me that I would probably have this
> >difficulty, due to brain damage in the parietal pre-frontal lobe of my
> >brain, for
> >quite some time, and I had to learn to separate pain itself, which I 
can't do
> >anything about (beyond analgaesic relief) and "suffering" which he defined
> >as my
> >reaction to pain. He told me to take more "social risks" and if I have a
> >seizure
> >in public, well, so what of it? Other people's reaction to it is their
> >problem.
> >
> >Now let's turn that around. If you have a talent, you have a 
responsibility to
> >magnify it. Other people, who may not have that talent, should not envy
> >you for
> >it, but should be glad for you, and should not react negatively when you
> >succeed
> >in that area. We put a lot of barriers in our own way, and often attempt
> >to put
> >barriers in other people's lives, too. Don't let anyone put barriers in
> >your way.
> >
> >And what I've said goes for Gary, too. I'm sure I'm not telling any of you
> >anything you don't already know, but this is by way of encouragement.
> >
> >Stacy Smith wrote:
> >
> > > Not all of us are required to prove theories.
> > >
> > > Stacy.
> > >
> > > At 03:55 PM 11/04/2002 -0900, you wrote:
> > >
> > > >After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with:
> > > >>No, it is postulating a theory. Once a theory is set out for all 
to read,
> > > >>then it is up to the rest of us to disprove the theory by testing it
> > > >>against known evidences. That does not yet make it a fact, as future
> > > >>evidence can always refute a theory. Without theories, we would not
> > > >>advance in science or knowledge. The danger comes when we convince
> > > >>ourselves that a theory is a fact, when in fact, it isn't.
> > > >
> > > >So basically what you are saying is that I can forward any way out 
weird
> > > >theory, maybe like something that Velikovsky or von Daniken might 
write,
> > > >and the burden of proof is on us to use evidence to showing how wrong
> > > >headed my theory is.
> > > >
> > > >I disagree that a person can responsibly postulate a theory and then
> > > >expect it to be accepted unless someone can disprove it.  Even a 
theory
> > > >needs to be supported with some kind of evidence.  Otherwise it 
isn't even
> > > >a theory, just a wild speculation.
> > > >
> > > >John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >===
> > > >You know what would make a good story?  Something
> > > >about a clown who make people happy, but inside he's
> > > >real sad. Also, he has severe diarrhea. --Jack Handy
> > > >===
> > > >All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
> > > >
> > > >/// 

> > //
> > > >///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> > > >///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> > > >/// 

> > //
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >---
> > > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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/
> > > ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
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> > >
> > 
/
> > >
> >
> >--
> >Marc A. Schindler
> >Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland

Re: [ZION] Guns, Germs and Steel

[Marc A. Schindler]

That's why I included "opportunities" as part of the list. You have to make due
with limitations placed on your talents, and "lack of opportunity" is the flip side
of opportunity. Why do we have proportionately fewer serious music composers today
than in the 18th and early 19th century, for example? Fewer talented people?

Stacy Smith wrote:

> What are we to do if our talents are being hindered?
>
> Stacy.
>
> At 07:58 PM 11/05/2002 -0700, you wrote:
>
> >This is true. Each has their own challenges, opportunities, talents, gifts and
> >assignments in life. This is what I get from what Paul says in I
> >Corinthians 13.
> >YOUR challenge and MY challenge are to use those to the best of our
> >advantage. I
> >learned a very interesting lesson recently. I've been going through a
> >great deal
> >of physical pain due to some neurological problems (among other things I had a
> >blood clot on the brain, between the surface and the lining of the brain,
> >called a
> >subdural haematoma, which they say is one of the most painful things a
> >person can
> >experience, along with childbirth and kidney stones). A neuropsychologist
> >(who is
> >a diagnostician, not a counsellor) told me that I would probably have this
> >difficulty, due to brain damage in the parietal pre-frontal lobe of my
> >brain, for
> >quite some time, and I had to learn to separate pain itself, which I can't do
> >anything about (beyond analgaesic relief) and "suffering" which he defined
> >as my
> >reaction to pain. He told me to take more "social risks" and if I have a
> >seizure
> >in public, well, so what of it? Other people's reaction to it is their
> >problem.
> >
> >Now let's turn that around. If you have a talent, you have a responsibility to
> >magnify it. Other people, who may not have that talent, should not envy
> >you for
> >it, but should be glad for you, and should not react negatively when you
> >succeed
> >in that area. We put a lot of barriers in our own way, and often attempt
> >to put
> >barriers in other people's lives, too. Don't let anyone put barriers in
> >your way.
> >
> >And what I've said goes for Gary, too. I'm sure I'm not telling any of you
> >anything you don't already know, but this is by way of encouragement.
> >
> >Stacy Smith wrote:
> >
> > > Not all of us are required to prove theories.
> > >
> > > Stacy.
> > >
> > > At 03:55 PM 11/04/2002 -0900, you wrote:
> > >
> > > >After much pondering, Gary Smith favored us with:
> > > >>No, it is postulating a theory. Once a theory is set out for all to read,
> > > >>then it is up to the rest of us to disprove the theory by testing it
> > > >>against known evidences. That does not yet make it a fact, as future
> > > >>evidence can always refute a theory. Without theories, we would not
> > > >>advance in science or knowledge. The danger comes when we convince
> > > >>ourselves that a theory is a fact, when in fact, it isn't.
> > > >
> > > >So basically what you are saying is that I can forward any way out weird
> > > >theory, maybe like something that Velikovsky or von Daniken might write,
> > > >and the burden of proof is on us to use evidence to showing how wrong
> > > >headed my theory is.
> > > >
> > > >I disagree that a person can responsibly postulate a theory and then
> > > >expect it to be accepted unless someone can disprove it.  Even a theory
> > > >needs to be supported with some kind of evidence.  Otherwise it isn't even
> > > >a theory, just a wild speculation.
> > > >
> > > >John W. Redelfs   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > >===
> > > >You know what would make a good story?  Something
> > > >about a clown who make people happy, but inside he's
> > > >real sad. Also, he has severe diarrhea. --Jack Handy
> > > >===
> > > >All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR
> > > >
> > > >///
> > //
> > > >///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> > > >///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> > > >///
> > //
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >---
> > > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free.
> > > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
> > > >Version: 6.0.399 / Virus Database: 226 - Release Date: 10/09/2002
> > >
> > >
> > /
> > > ///  ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at  ///
> > > ///  http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html  ///
> > >
> > /
> > >
> >
> >--
> >Marc A. Schindler
> >Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
> >
> >“The first duty of a university is to teach wisdom, not a trade;
> >character, not
> >technicalities. We want a lot of engineers in the modern world, but