RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
At 21:09 12/13/2002 +, Sir Chester wrote: Elmer L. Fairbank wrote: > >Chet, my friend, that's "And little lambs eat ivy, a kid'll eat ivy too, > > > >wouldn't you?" > > > > Till the very helpful Evidently you can remember Gallegher & Sheen easier than I. (No, not Sledge-O-Matic Gallegher and Martin-&-Chuckles Sheen!) Naw, just Spike "Let me kiss your hand madame, 'cause I can't stand your breath" Jones Till the ancient // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
At 22:28 12/13/2002 -0700, Uncle Presidente wrote: Since Scott's motorcycle ownership has been given such a thorough review here, what does the list have to say about a stake president owning and using a motorcycle. I seem to remember some counsel when I was called about being a good example. Remember I live in a small town where everyone seems to think they know each other. Surreptitious use of the motorcycle is not an option. Will my being seen on a motorcycle undercut the arguments of well meaning and concerned parents mothers who are trying to keep their sons from maiming or killing themselves? Will the poor mothers crumble or at least chaff under the weight of "but President Matkin has a motorcycle". On the other hand by participating in a few group rides with the local biking community (organized by the local RCMP staff sergeant who is also a high priests group leader in my stake) I have been able to rub shoulders with certain people who don't normal frequent our Sunday meetings. So that's the dilemma, on the one hand it may be giving justification to a rather dangerous sport (especially in the hands of a 17 year old with nothing but wind between his ears) and on the other hand if I give it up I lose contact with a lot of good friends, some of whom I'm unlikely to see in any other context. But most importantly of all, considering the demonstrated danger, should I also avoid the use of stairs? Our Bishop rides a bike. Keep it, just don't get tattooed and wear spiky painted-up leathers, and do your hair in a butch cut (h. is it possible?) Till the helpful // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re:[ZION] My visit to SLC
Are you sure you won't be wearing a red and white striped shirt and hat? Just Waldo-ing about. . . val -- Gary Smith <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: I'm enjoying my visit to SLC. Tomorrow night (Monday), I'll be seeing the Temple Square lights. If any of you are out there, I'll be the one with a group of people. I'll also be wearing a green London Fog winter coat (not a trench coat), with small orange labels saying "London Fog" and white stripes. I have a slight beard on my face, and small roundish glasses. Anyone care to take a stab at finding me? K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www ..geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The Two Towers (LOTR)
SPOILERS, don't read further, warning, show off about to be exposed as a fraud, humbug and charlatan: > 1) What is Gollum's real name? Smeagol (no last name given). And he wasn't a hobbit, despite what many have said in their reviews of the movie. He was a hobbit-like creature, not an actual hobbit. His cousin was Deagol but his grandmother's name was not given. > 2) What is the name of the king's evil advisor? Grima Wormtongue (okay, I forget the rest of his names) > 3) What is an Ent? Too easy. They were originally trees. But back in the dawn of Middle Earth (or perhaps I should say back in the starlight) things could be woken up more easily. > 4) Who is Gollum's friend that helps him? He didn't have any friends. He _claimed_ to have powerful friends, meaning of course Sauron and his evil minions. They did help him escape the Elves but it wasn't an act of friendship. > 5) How does Frodo escape the tower? This was a little bit contrived on Tolkien's part but the Professor wanted to show just how nasty the Orcs were in that they couldn't get along at all with each other. I have to shake my head at the modern whiners who disparage Tolkien's depiction of Orcs as genetically bad. They apparently want Orcs to be redeemable because its just so specist of Tolkien to make Orcs bad by birth. Strangely, these same people do not try to redeem gorillas. > 6) How many palantiri are there total, and how many are known of by the > end of book 3? Hmm, I'm running through the Rhymes of Lore and I believe it goes: Seven stones and one white tree. End of book three: that would have to be two; Saruman's and Sauron's. I've forgotten what happened to the other four. Lost or destroyed, but how? > 7) What army does Aragorn raise to help him win a major battle? You are probably referring to the Paths of the Dead, but there are other things that could be argued. > My wife says no cheating by > peeking in a book for the answers, All straight from memory. It has been over three years since I last read the books. Grima had a last name that wasn't Wormtongue, but I can't recall it. Must be getting old. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
Jon Spencer wrote: > So let me get this straight. First you postulate that the Americans took > the materials first to hide the Pakistani connection. Then you use that > supposition to say "That's what I've been saying all along: Pakistan is far > more dangerous to you than Iraq." > > Did I get this correctly? No. Reread my post. I said the publicly stated, the proximate reason, was so that recipes for CBW didn't make it into the public realm (which is credible). The ultimate reason was that, because of the age of most of the material, there was a danger that the ultimate source of the technology would become public: the USA to Pakistan when Pakistan was its client in South Asia during the Cold War. I'm not suggesting you bomb Pakistan. I'm suggesting you keep your weapons of mass destruction at home. > If so, if your first supposition is incorrect > > > Ah, what the heck. Let's just bomb Pakistan and get it over with. THEN we > can bomb Iraq. No, wait! North Korea first, then - um - Iran! Then > Canada. And THEN Iraq! > > I got it now! > > Jon > > Marc A. Schindler wrote: > > By now I'm sure all of you have heard of the material the Iraqi > government turned over to the Security Council. The U.S. took it before > other Security Council members could look at it, with the excuse that > they wanted to make sure certain parts having to do with recipes for > weapons of mass destruction didn't get made public. But this doesn't > make sense -- all of the countries serving on the Security Council know > how to make CBW. Rumour has it that the real reason the U.S. is going to > censor the Iraqi material is > > because it shows that most of its technology came from Pakistan and > was ultimately paid for by the U.S. taxpayer. > > Sound familiar? That's what I've been saying all along: Pakistan is far > more dangerous to you than Iraq. Another reason, too, but one that's > pretty well out in the public now anyway (there was an article in the > November 02 Harpers about this) is how the US has deliberately > obstructed the petroleum for humanitarian program in order to destroy > the civilian infrastructure of Iraq. The idea seems to be that if the US > makes things in Iraq really, really miserable, that the Iraqis will rise > up against Saddam. Mind you, the U.S. hinted to the Shi'ites in the > south during Gulf War I that if they rose up, they'd get help from the > U.S. but by then Iraq wasn't a US concern anymore, and the Shi'ite > rebellion was brutally put down by Saddam, so one has to wonder how > stupid the US thinks Iraqis are. > > And I have to wonder if, in 5 or 10 years time, some major terrorist > action against the U.S. comes from Iraqis, if you'll remember all this, > or if you'll, once again, just ask "huh? wha' happened?" By then you'll > be blaming Pakistanis. > > You heard it here first. > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
> Since Scott's motorcycle ownership has been given such a thorough review here, what >does the list have to say about a stake president owning and using a motorcycle. Speaking for the list as a whole (and I know that everyone is happy to let me speak for them, or if not, they should just keep quiet about it) I have to wonder about someone who rides a motorbike but is not a keen fan of The Lord of the Rings. Which is more likely to hurt someone: watching the Lord of the Rings movies or riding a motorbike? Which is more likely to lead to tatoos, long greasy beards and drinking of some kind of near beer substitute? Which is louder? And if your daughter showed up at home one day riding behind some guy on a motorbike, wouldn't you find yourself wishing she was watching The Two Towers instead? So there you have it. The questions lead to obvious answers. The list has spoken. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] The latest from Iraq
No, Larry -- the U.S. insisted on looking it over first before giving it to other permanent members of the Security Council, which is only 5 nations (technically speaking, not the "UN" -- that implies the General Assembly). This was public news, I'm not making it up. Here's a post to an official US state department briefing on the issue: http://usinfo.state.gov/topical/pol/terror/02121208.htm [incidentally, for those who still think the rest of the world operates the way the US does, note that if this were a Canadian government document, the director of communications would not be interviewed by journalists as in this briefing record and Q&A session -- it would be the minister who would be interviewed]. Think, too, that it's in Iraq's best interests to cloud the issue, as it were, by showing this kind of "complication." Incidentally, I've also said that the U.S. won't invade Iraq when push comes to shove -- that while the U.S. administration may in fact be quite sincere in their concern about Iraq, their first priority was the mid-term elections. Now that the Republicans did better than many dared hope, the "need" for a "wag the dog" scenario is fading, and the doves are getting the upper hand. Two complete naval battle groups have started sailing *away* from the Middle East: http://www.nationalpost.com/search/site/story.asp?id=2B634666-9A17-4525-9558-1FA9C23496BB [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > Marc Schindler: > > By now I'm sure all of you have heard of the material the > Iraqi government turned over to the Security Council. The > U.S. took it before other Security Council members could > look at it, with the excuse that they wanted to make sure > certain parts having to do with recipes for weapons of > mass destruction didn't get made public. But this > doesn't make sense -- > > ___ > > Of course it doesn't make sense. It didn't happen that way. > > That wasn't the reason, that wasn't the excuse, and the > U.N. kept a copy of the complete document while the U.S. > made more copies for them. > > Larry Jackson > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] New guy
I am glad to be one of the newest member of this list. By its description it is what I have been looking for - a list of LDS faithful ready to discuss without rancor. I live in Ogden and have been a member all of my life and with a heritage in the church back to the 1830's. But the testimony I enjoy had to be earned just like the newest member and in my case it has been received many times over. I am married to the lovely Sylvia and we have five children and eight beautiful grandchildren. Currently on the Ogden University High Council and loving it. The kids you send to Weber State are the greatest in the world. I hope that I am right about the list - I look forward to receiving the first messages from you. George Cobabe, CLU, ChFC Ogden, Utah [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Stacy Smith favored us with: Can someone explain to me how there could be total freedom of religion with people observing the Mosaic law? How can there have been a command against blasphemy and a death sentence if conditions like Alma portrays were true? How could there have been a climate of religious freedom? We are always free to choose life or death. Many choose death. Among those would be drug addicts, fornicators, and murderers. They have chosen death because they have chosen a path that leads to death. As long as a person can choose between life and death he is free to choose. A government might make every possible wrong behavior a capital crime, executing thieves, embezzlers, and jay walkers. In such a situation everyone is still free to choose between right and wrong, life and death. Suppose for an example that I was taken hostage by a terrorist who put a gun to my head and told me to drive my car into a crowd of Jews. Does the gun at my head mean that I am not free to choose? Of course not. I can choose to disobey the terrorist and have my head blown off. In this situation that would be the right choice. See? I really am free. I think a distinction needs to be made between freedom in an absolute sense and political freedom or economic freedom. In an absolute sense any man born into this Second Estate truly is free. He won his freedom by choosing the right in the War in Heaven and keeping his First Estate. Or at least that is my understanding today. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described intellectuals" --Uncle Bob === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Curiosity about Alma 1:21
Stacy Smith favored us with: It had just occurred to me that it seemed that the Mosaic law, if properly followed, never allowed for true freedom. Am I really right on that one? If that is the case, wouldn't one say that that law was a law of force? I would not agree with this. A person under the Mosaic Law is still free to choose between obedience and disobedience. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
I'm always glad to see new people, even people I might recognize. But I would be worried if I saw someone I didn't like or want to see. What should I do if I should ever see someone suspicious on here? Stacy. At 11:01 AM 12/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: I am glad to be one of the newest member of this list. By its description it is what I have been looking for - a list of LDS faithful ready to discuss without rancor. I live in Ogden and have been a member all of my life and with a heritage in the church back to the 1830's. But the testimony I enjoy had to be earned just like the newest member and in my case it has been received many times over. I am married to the lovely Sylvia and we have five children and eight beautiful grandchildren. Currently on the Ogden University High Council and loving it. The kids you send to Weber State are the greatest in the world. I hope that I am right about the list - I look forward to receiving the first messages from you. George Cobabe, CLU, ChFC Ogden, Utah [EMAIL PROTECTED] // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
Geez, I am brand new and the first message wants to know what to do about the new guy. :-) What did I do to arouse such a reaction. :-) George - Original Message - From: "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] New guy > I'm always glad to see new people, even people I might recognize. But I > would be worried if I saw someone I didn't like or want to see. What > should I do if I should ever see someone suspicious on here? > > Stacy. > > At 11:01 AM 12/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: > > >I am glad to be one of the newest member of this list. By its description > >it is what I have been looking for - a list of LDS faithful ready to discuss > >without rancor. > > > >I live in Ogden and have been a member all of my life and with a heritage in > >the church back to the 1830's. But the testimony I enjoy had to be earned > >just like the newest member and in my case it has been received many times > >over. I am married to the lovely Sylvia and we have five children and eight > >beautiful grandchildren. Currently on the Ogden University High Council and > >loving it. The kids you send to Weber State are the greatest in the world. > > > >I hope that I am right about the list - I look forward to receiving the > >first messages from you. > > > >George Cobabe, CLU, ChFC > >Ogden, Utah > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >/// /// > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >/// // > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New guy
Stacy Smith wrote: > I'm always glad to see new people, even people I might recognize. But I > > would be worried if I saw someone I didn't like or want to see. What > should I do if I should ever see someone suspicious on here? You should shriek "HEY, what's Chet doing here?!" *jeep! --Chet "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible." // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
Hey, George! Howyadoin'? Welcome to the list. You may see some familiar cyber-faces here. George Cobabe wrote: > I am glad to be one of the newest member of this list. By its description > it is what I have been looking for - a list of LDS faithful ready to discuss > without rancor. > > I live in Ogden and have been a member all of my life and with a heritage in > the church back to the 1830's. But the testimony I enjoy had to be earned > just like the newest member and in my case it has been received many times > over. I am married to the lovely Sylvia and we have five children and eight > beautiful grandchildren. Currently on the Ogden University High Council and > loving it. The kids you send to Weber State are the greatest in the world. > > I hope that I am right about the list - I look forward to receiving the > first messages from you. > > George Cobabe, CLU, ChFC > Ogden, Utah > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] The Two Towers (LOTR)
I'm not a Tolkien fan -- nothing negative. I did read The Hobbit years ago but just never got around to any of the trilogy. So maybe this is funny, and maybe it isn't, but there was a cartoon in the latest New Yorker. You don't really need to see it to get it, I wouldn't think. TOLKIEN CHARACTERS THAT NEVER MADE IT OUT OF THE AUTHOR'S NOTEBOOKS. NOGO: the agoraphobic hobbit FINARFINGOL: the elf dentist SMIG: the miniature dragon Mark Gregson wrote: > SPOILERS, don't read further, warning, show off about to be exposed as a fraud, >humbug and charlatan: > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
Mark, You may think motorcycle exhaust Is a sign of a soul that is lost But to contrast this view With Two Towers debut Is a sign that your have your threads crossed. Or to put it more logically, you have proposed a false dichotomy. Whether or not one enjoys LORT movies really has nothing to do with whether or not one wants his daughter to ride on the back of a motorcycle. But I'll have to assume, on your say so, that the list thinks that motorcycles are the embodiment of evil and I should sell mine and use the proceeds to purchase one of the inevitable classic collector's leather embossed box sets of LOTR movie DVD's for each member in my stake when they become available. Tom Cardston, Alberta www.matkin.com > -Original Message- > From: Mark Gregson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] > Sent: December 16, 2002 9:33 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles > > > > Since Scott's motorcycle ownership has been given such a thorough review > here, what does the list have to say about a stake president owning and > using a motorcycle. > > Speaking for the list as a whole (and I know that everyone is happy to let > me speak for them, or if not, they should just keep quiet about it) I have > to wonder about someone who rides a motorbike but is not a keen fan of The > Lord of the Rings. Which is more likely to hurt someone: watching the > Lord of the Rings movies or riding a motorbike? Which is more likely to > lead to tatoos, long greasy beards and drinking of some kind of near beer > substitute? Which is louder? And if your daughter showed up at home one > day riding behind some guy on a motorbike, wouldn't you find yourself > wishing she was watching The Two Towers instead? > > So there you have it. The questions lead to obvious answers. The list > has spoken. > > = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = > > > -- > ___ > Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com > > Powered by Outblaze > > // > > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > // > /// > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
Just by the by, yesterday (Sunday) we drove back from Taber and stopped at Gasoline Alley for a quick pit stop (for non-Albertans, Gasoline Alley is a strip of fast food and gas stations along the service roads on the south side of the city of Red Deer, which is midway between Calgary and Edmonton.) There's now a Harley-Davidson store there where you can get your "hawg" serviced. They sell Harley insignia and similar products, too. Mark Gregson wrote: > > > Since Scott's motorcycle ownership has been given such a thorough review here, >what does the list have to say about a stake president owning and using a motorcycle. > > Speaking for the list as a whole (and I know that everyone is happy to let me speak >for them, or if not, they should just keep quiet about it) I have to wonder about >someone who rides a motorbike but is not a keen fan of The Lord of the Rings. Which >is more likely to hurt someone: watching the Lord of the Rings movies or riding a >motorbike? Which is more likely to lead to tatoos, long greasy beards and drinking >of some kind of near beer substitute? Which is louder? And if your daughter showed >up at home one day riding behind some guy on a motorbike, wouldn't you find yourself >wishing she was watching The Two Towers instead? > > So there you have it. The questions lead to obvious answers. The list has spoken. > > = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = > > > -- > ___ > Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com > > Powered by Outblaze > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re:Re: [ZION] New guy
Don't take it personal, George, It's probably your last name. . .;-) Can this list handle another Cobabe?? :-o your sis in Mishawaka, IN val -- George Cobabe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Geez, I am brand new and the first message wants to know what to do about the new guy. :-) What did I do to arouse such a reaction. :-) George - Original Message - From: "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] New guy > I'm always glad to see new people, even people I might recognize. But I > would be worried if I saw someone I didn't like or want to see. What > should I do if I should ever see someone suspicious on here? > > Stacy. > > At 11:01 AM 12/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: > > >I am glad to be one of the newest member of this list. By its description > >it is what I have been looking for - a list of LDS faithful ready to discuss > >without rancor. > > > >I live in Ogden and have been a member all of my life and with a heritage in > >the church back to the 1830's. But the testimony I enjoy had to be earned > >just like the newest member and in my case it has been received many times > >over. I am married to the lovely Sylvia and we have five children and eight > >beautiful grandchildren. Currently on the Ogden University High Council and > >loving it. The kids you send to Weber State are the greatest in the world. > > > >I hope that I am right about the list - I look forward to receiving the > >first messages from you. > > > >George Cobabe, CLU, ChFC > >Ogden, Utah > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >/// /// > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >/// // > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Re: New guy
-Val- > Can this list handle another Cobabe?? :-o No, we can't have two Cobabes. At least one of them has to be the primary Babe. I suppose they'll have to decide between themselves which is better-looking. Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New guy
Fortunately, no one is of that caliber here. But I do have to warn the list: Someone may be trying to chase me and that is bad. Stacy. At 06:30 PM 12/16/2002 +, you wrote: Stacy Smith wrote: > I'm always glad to see new people, even people I might recognize. But I > > would be worried if I saw someone I didn't like or want to see. What > should I do if I should ever see someone suspicious on here? You should shriek "HEY, what's Chet doing here?!" *jeep! --Chet "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible." // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
At 11:56 12/16/2002 -0700, Uncle Presidente wrote: But I'll have to assume, on your say so, that the list thinks that motorcycles are the embodiment of evil and I should sell mine and use the proceeds to purchase one of the inevitable classic collector's leather embossed box sets of LOTR movie DVD's for each member in my stake when they become available. No, no keep the bike, just don't grease your hair and get a misshapen eagle on your forearm. Motorcycles are kewl. Have to admit though, they're not so great right about this time of year. Till, who doesn't live in your stake anyway (now that might be a different issue) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
Not you. I'll take you any day over this other character. His last name is Wright. I'm not sure what to do if he decides to come on this list. See, what I'm worried about is a cyberstalker. Stacy. At 11:12 AM 12/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: Geez, I am brand new and the first message wants to know what to do about the new guy. :-) What did I do to arouse such a reaction. :-) George - Original Message - From: "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 11:06 AM Subject: Re: [ZION] New guy > I'm always glad to see new people, even people I might recognize. But I > would be worried if I saw someone I didn't like or want to see. What > should I do if I should ever see someone suspicious on here? > > Stacy. > > At 11:01 AM 12/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: > > >I am glad to be one of the newest member of this list. By its description > >it is what I have been looking for - a list of LDS faithful ready to discuss > >without rancor. > > > >I live in Ogden and have been a member all of my life and with a heritage in > >the church back to the 1830's. But the testimony I enjoy had to be earned > >just like the newest member and in my case it has been received many times > >over. I am married to the lovely Sylvia and we have five children and eight > >beautiful grandchildren. Currently on the Ogden University High Council and > >loving it. The kids you send to Weber State are the greatest in the world. > > > >I hope that I am right about the list - I look forward to receiving the > >first messages from you. > > > >George Cobabe, CLU, ChFC > >Ogden, Utah > >[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > >/// /// > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >/// // > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Afghanistan improved?
Contrary to what seems to be the general impression in the U.S. that Afghanistan has improved with the overthrow of the Taliban regime, there are signs that the ancien regime has returned -- the "Northern Alliance" was, of course, nothing but the original gang of thugs who ran the country, and according to the latest issue of Jane's Intelligence Review, Afghanistan is once again the world's largest opium producer. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
If one is not economically or politically free can they really decide what they should or should not do? Not really, in my opinion. This is where I may draw the line with some conservatives. Give me liberty or give me death:! Stacy. At 08:57 AM 12/16/2002 -0900, you wrote: Stacy Smith favored us with: Can someone explain to me how there could be total freedom of religion with people observing the Mosaic law? How can there have been a command against blasphemy and a death sentence if conditions like Alma portrays were true? How could there have been a climate of religious freedom? We are always free to choose life or death. Many choose death. Among those would be drug addicts, fornicators, and murderers. They have chosen death because they have chosen a path that leads to death. As long as a person can choose between life and death he is free to choose. A government might make every possible wrong behavior a capital crime, executing thieves, embezzlers, and jay walkers. In such a situation everyone is still free to choose between right and wrong, life and death. Suppose for an example that I was taken hostage by a terrorist who put a gun to my head and told me to drive my car into a crowd of Jews. Does the gun at my head mean that I am not free to choose? Of course not. I can choose to disobey the terrorist and have my head blown off. In this situation that would be the right choice. See? I really am free. I think a distinction needs to be made between freedom in an absolute sense and political freedom or economic freedom. In an absolute sense any man born into this Second Estate truly is free. He won his freedom by choosing the right in the War in Heaven and keeping his First Estate. Or at least that is my understanding today. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described intellectuals" --Uncle Bob === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
Tom Matkin wrote: > Mark, > But I'll have to assume, on your say so, that the list thinks that > motorcycles are the embodiment of evil and I should sell mine and use > the proceeds to purchase one of the inevitable classic collector's > leather embossed box sets of LOTR movie DVD's for each member in my > stake when they become available. No, he means you should purchase the inevitable classic collector's leather embossed box sets of LOTR movie (all three parts) DVD for each member in MY stake. *jeep! --Chet "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible." // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Stalkers (was: New guy)
Stacy Smith wrote: > Fortunately, no one is of that caliber here. But I do have to warn the > list: Someone may be trying to chase me and that is bad. This IS bad. My wife just got finished shaking a cyber-stalker (who had been a classmate in her high school) and is still concerned about him finding us. (I almost hope he does. I may be disabled, but I swing a mean cane!) Your isp may be able to help you if he's cyberstalking you. And John (our Beloved List Tyrant) can help you out as far as this list goes. *jeep! --Chet "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible." // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New guy
Stacy Smith wrote: > Not you. I'll take you any day over this other character. His last > name > is Wright. So Wright is wrong. I'll have to remember that. *jeep! --Chet "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible." // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Stalkers (was: New guy)
I wrote (and I'll take the blame for it): >And John (our Beloved List Tyrant) can help you out as far as this >list >goes. Gee, wasn't it just swell of me to volunteer John like that? Sorry 'bout that, big guy. I let my outrage overpower my typing fingers when I should've e-mailed you first. (Even though my e-mail is down again. MStar used to be s good!) *jeep! --Chet "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible." // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] "heck" ain't cussin
I'll give it a try (but of course keep in mind that I'm not defending it, just
trying to explain it from a creedal Christian point of view).
There are a number of variations of trinitarianism, but I'll stick with the basic
one set up at the Council of Chalcedon. The creedal statement basically reads that
God is three in person and one in substance (not three persons in one, which is
how many LDS -- indeed many Catholics and Protestants themselves, misunderstand
it). When the Orthodox and Roman churches split in the 11th century or
thereabouts, it was over a minor aspect of trinitarianism which I won't get into
here, but the eastern churches felt that this was a mystery which transcends
rational understanding, and culturally they had no problem with that. This
approach dates back to the Cappadocians of the 4th or 5th century.
The Roman approach was taken by Augustine and expanded. Augustine felt that there
had to be a rational explanation, so he took earlier interpretations by a group of
Church fathers known as the Apologists (because they defended early Christianity
against Jewish and Greek pagan critics) and expanded on it. The Apologists were
the first well-educated members (as a group) but they were trained in the Greek
tradition of rationalism, also sometimes called neo-hellenism, or to get
technical, Middle Platonism. Plato held that there existed something called a
"universal." If you have a red chair, then clearly it exists as a chair. But does
"redness" exist independently? Some would say, no it doesn't -- it's merely a
characteristic of something which exists, but Plato taught that it has an
independent existence. The Middle Platonists took this idea of the universal and
said that that's what "God" is: a universal, which manifests itself in three
different persons.
When you read the original Greek of John 1:1, known as the Johannine Prologue,
part of the verse reads "...and the Word was God." The naive literalist
interpretation of this by creedal Christians is that Jesus Christ was a
manifestation of God. However, this interpretation has to be read back into the
original text, because John wrote in ignorance of Platonism, and the Greek
actually indicates what's known as a predicate relationship between the Word and
God (the Father).
Here's what I mean by a predicate relationship, as opposed to an identity
relationship (the naive, everyday Protestant's and Catholic's view, and the
caricature that most LDS have of the trinity).
When I say "The United States is the 50 states, territories, the land and
inhabitants thereof, plus the government" I am making an identity statement. I am,
in effect, defining, in a one-to-one way, what a term *is* (hence "identity"
relationship).
But if I say "The United States is George Washington, Old Glory, motherhood and
apple pie" I am saying something else entirely. This is clearly not an identity
relationship. It is known as a "predicate" relationship, something that's hard to
show in English, but fairly easy to show in NT Greek (by means of an anarthous
proper noun, for those who care).
What "...and the Word was God" is, is a predicate relationship. It is saying that
"whatever God was, that, too, was the Word." Trinitarians take this and say that
that "whatever" is a universal which has independent existence. They believe that
even though this is not found in John's writing, which predate this philosophical
view, that trinitarianism is a later but entirely legitimate clarification of how
to resolve the dilemma of monotheism but three Gods.
We LDS are actually closer to this view than many might think. The difference is
that we reject Middle Platonism, and would say that the "universal" is an abstract
concept only. It's as if there were an office with a brass nameplate on it reading
"God," which has three persons in it.
Does that help, or just muddy the waters more?
Chet wrote:
> Stacy Smith wrote:
> > I think that as a former Protestant I understood much about trinitarian
> > theology and understood what it meant. I had very few vague ideas about
> >
> > the subject.
>
> Could you explain it to me, then? In all my years in Southern Baptist,
> and in all my wife's years in various Protestant churches, neither of us
> thought it made sense. I thought it sounded like an accident with
> Scotty's transporter. ("Aye, Cap'n -- we've accidently merged two life
> forms again.")
>
> *jeep!
> --Chet
> "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you
> are doing the impossible."
>
> //
> /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
> /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
> /
>
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick
himself up and continue on W
[ZION] Calling a SLC trip a pilgrimage?
I always consider it a pilgrimage to see my family While in SLC, you have to make sure you circle the seagull statue 7 times counter clockwise Some consider seeing the sites almost as a pilgrimage, as it is spiritual in nature. I know the trips we've made to Nauvoo have been marvelous, especially during the Nauvoo temple open house. I would definitely call that a pilgrimage. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: Would any of you consider visiting historic LDS sites a pilgrimage? This is a new idea to me. What does anyone think of this? Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Just finished reading....
The key to reading so much of the GAs/scriptures and less television, is not how much you'll necessarily gain from their teachings, but the level of spirituality that will grow within you. Then, you will be able to have revealed to you personally many of the wondrous mysteries the Lord awaits to those who are ready to receive. People rarely gain revelation from watching tv shows, regardless of how exciting or neat they are. But when we concentrate in the spiritual realm, we attune ourselves to the spiritual things. For me, their words are great, but even greater is the spiritual insight I gain. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: I've even decided to give up most television watching in favor of reading and listening to these leaders long term. I truly believe they have long-term knowledge of future events and will in the end be able to look at all pertinent issues before another government gets established. It's obvious there are differences of opinion even in the church. I'll be interested to see what kind of government gets established and if any of us can have any input. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] algore
What do I think of John Kerrey? I think he is an honest man, which will be a refreshing change for a candidate from the Democratic party He is rather liberal on some issues, moderate on others. He works well with those on both sides of the aisle, and isn't an attack dog like Daschle or Gephardt. I'd say he is one of their better choices right now. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Alma 1:21
It was originally designed for a theocracy, run under Moses and the priests. In such a theocracy, there is no other religion. Remember, Israel was commanded to destroy all the other peoples and religions in Palestine. The Nephites adapted it to their multi-peopled government, meaning backing off on some requirements to ensure religious freedom. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe It had just occurred to me that it seemed that the Mosaic law, if properly followed, never allowed for true freedom. Am I really right on that one? If that is the case, wouldn't one say that that law was a law of force? Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] algore
Gary Smith wrote: --- What do I think of John Kerrey? --- It will indeed be refreshing to hear more about anyone but the sleazy crooks that seemed to represent the national Dems over the last few years. I have heard nice things about and from John Kerry. And since the party is currently so fragmented and disorganized, maybe it is an opportunity to get to know some new faces. There's always a chance that someone really good will turn up. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New guy
Hi George! Nice to see your sig here, welcome to the Zion list. I have found it to be a great refuge from the sanity of the world. ;-) Near as I can determine, George and I seem to be cousins--which probably accounts for the similarity in our last names. --- Jim Cobabe // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New guy
But you don't know for sure? Interesting. Stacy. At 08:34 PM 12/16/2002 +, you wrote: Hi George! Nice to see your sig here, welcome to the Zion list. I have found it to be a great refuge from the sanity of the world. ;-) Near as I can determine, George and I seem to be cousins--which probably accounts for the similarity in our last names. --- Jim Cobabe // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Re: New guy
At 07:14 PM 12/16/2002 +, Stephen wrote: No, we can't have two Cobabes. At least one of them has to be the primary Babe. I suppose they'll have to decide between themselves which is better-looking. But, Stephen, "CObabe" implies that there are at least two of them. I think the list is finally getting it right. Rick Mathis // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
SLC Mayor Rocky Anderson just announced a new proposed plan to settle the Main Street Plaza legal controversy. It appears that Mayor Rocky is ready to concede that the Church should have full control of Plaza access, and in exchange for offering this compromise, he suggests that the Church should donate some property holdings on the west side of SLC for construction and development of community improvement facilities. Bishop Burton responded to the proposal favorably and suggested that the matter be deliberated further at the city council meeting on Tuesday. My cynical bent detects that Mayor Rocky felt the tide of public opinion turning against him in his legalistic maneuvering, and felt that it was time to do some lawyerly wheeling and dealing. It would be a relief if this settles the issue. I think the only people gaining anything from the argument were the lawyers. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
On Fri, 13 Dec 2002 22:28:22 -0700, "Tom Matkin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Since Scott's motorcycle ownership has been given such a thorough review > here, what does the list have to say about a stake president owning and > using a motorcycle. Tom, Considering the intense discussion of my motorcycle, my stairs, and my butt, I may not be considered the best source to listen to, but I fail to see the problem. Would you be just as much influence with these same teenagers if you bought a truck or a sports car? The Church is made for man, not man for the Church. You don't really need to alter everything about your life for fear of giving someone a wrong impression. Yes, it is very appropriate to consider the impact of your actions in many circumstances. What would someone thing if they saw you chugging away on a bottle of IBC root beer if they didn't know and weren't close enough to read the label. Probably that you were drinking a beer. Does that mean, however, thay you shouldn't ever drink anything in a brown bottle? No! You might want to be a bit more circumspect in public settings, or alternately you might want to make a big deal about it so that anyone likely to see you will KNOW that it is root beer. With your motorcycle, however, someone seeing you riding will NOT assume that you are breaking some commandment. You could, however, if still concerned take a similar approach to the alternate above. You can be very public and up-front about your motorcycle and why you feel it is a good thing. This also allows you to provide saftey info to admiring teens. Personally, I don't think you should worry about it. If you do anyway, then either try the above aproach or quite riding to releive your own worry (but not because of what other's think!) > But most importantly of all, considering the demonstrated danger, should > I also avoid the use of stairs? Well, if you are considering my example, then yes you should avoid stairs at three am in the middle of a tornado warning in the rain just after having been given a motorcycle. Otherwise, I expect that they are fairly safe. Scott -- Buttered bread always lands butter side * Would YOU mistake these as down (Unless it sticks to the ceiling!) * anyone`s opinions but my own? Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Scott McGee) Web: http://scott.themcgees.org/ -- http://fastmail.fm - Sent 0.02 seconds ago // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
> Or to put it more logically, you have proposed a false dichotomy. > Whether or not one enjoys LORT movies really has nothing to do with > whether or not one wants his daughter to ride on the back of a > motorcycle. Well, I got on the back of a motorbike once and it fell over. So I know that they must be dangerous. > But I'll have to assume, on your say so, that the list thinks that > motorcycles are the embodiment of evil and I should sell mine and use > the proceeds to purchase one of the inevitable classic collector's > leather embossed box sets of LOTR movie DVD's for each member in my > stake when they become available. The list speaks: Wow, are you ever an enlightened stake president! I wasn't trying to say that motorbikes are evil but if it leads you to donate the LoTR DVD's to your members then something really good would have come of it all. Too bad my stake president doesn't ride a motorbike. Guess I'll just have to buy my own copies of the DVD's. In the spirit of the list, if anyone is going to be in Edmonton this Friday you can come watch The Two Towers at Silver City in the late afternoon with me. On the other hand, if you're going to be in Cardston before the snow flies (and it might never, the way this winter is going), take your motorbike along and have a ride with Tom. = Mark Gregson [EMAIL PROTECTED] = -- ___ Get your free email from http://mymail.operamail.com Powered by Outblaze // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Re: New guy
I say "off with BOTH their heads!" (that's an in joke they will both get). Rick Mathis wrote: > At 07:14 PM 12/16/2002 +, Stephen wrote: > > >No, we can't have two Cobabes. At least one of them has to be the > >primary Babe. I suppose they'll have to decide between themselves which > >is better-looking. > But, Stephen, "CObabe" implies that there are at least two of them. I > think the list is finally getting it right. > > Rick Mathis > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] New guy
It's you last name. :-) Noj George Cobabe wrote: > Geez, I am brand new and the first message wants to know what to do about > the new guy. :-) What did I do to arouse such a reaction. :-) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] LOTR Two Towers
Not me, but someone I knew in Kansas was named Eowyn. Her parents were LOTR fanatics. She had this wonderful long, wavy red hair that I just envied! Heidi the fair > [Original Message] > From: Johnna Cornett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 12/14/2002 12:40:18 AM > Subject: [ZION] LOTR Two Towers > > Well, I'm excited for movie two. I want to see it opening night, not > sure how I'll work that in to my life with a baby. My husband has seen > Fellowship for the first time on DVD over Thanksgiving weekend, so now > he wants to see Two Towers with me, hurrah. > > A friend brought the DVD by at Thanksgiving, so I got to see much of > that backstory, making-of footage. Made me more excited to see the next > installment. Made me wonder why I'm not doing cool stuff in my life, > like making scale models of orthanc, or designing elven swords, or more > particularly, designing and making the costumes. > My daughter was Fleur de la Coeur for Halloween, and making her > costume was too fun. She's a natural platinum blonde at this age, and > her good friend already claimed the Hermione role. > > My prediction for this Two Towers movie is that it will be violent. As > I was rereading Two Towers this week, I was noticing a preponderance of > battle scenes. Also, I 'm looking forward to Eowyn's character being > introduced to the movie--a fabulous character that could be the star of > a lesser work. > > Reading two of the books a measure of fan status? I'm running into geek > rating. I've read the entire LOTR trilogy four times in the last > thirteen months. Too me, the dividing line between the fans and the > fanatics is learning elvish. > Though now more people talk about LOTR and I find I know much more > about it that other readers, I believe I should give in to my interest > in the languages of middle earth. apparently I'm a tolkien geek anyway. > > My eight-year-old wants to have a LOTR-themed birthday party next year. > That's my girl! > > Johnna > okay, I'll admit my friends called me Meriadoc all those years ago, and > my best friend was Pippin. anyone else had a LOTR moniker? > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Re: New guy
George has to be better looking, because Jim is definitely smarter. But to tell you the truth if you have seen one Cobabe you will recognize the rest. Just happy to be here and living off what I suspect is the good name of good o'cousin Jim. George - Original Message - From: "Stephen Beecroft" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 12:14 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] Re: New guy > -Val- > > Can this list handle another Cobabe?? :-o > > No, we can't have two Cobabes. At least one of them has to be the > primary Babe. I suppose they'll have to decide between themselves which > is better-looking. > > Stephen > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
NO - that is wrong - the wrong one is Wright! THAT is right! Who's on second? George - Original Message - From: "Chet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 12:52 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] New guy > > Stacy Smith wrote: > > Not you. I'll take you any day over this other character. His last > > name > > is Wright. > > So Wright is wrong. I'll have to remember that. > > > *jeep! > --Chet > "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you > are doing the impossible." > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
Stacy - we know for sure. Jim is able to determine pretty close. George - Original Message - From: "Stacy Smith" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 1:41 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] New guy > But you don't know for sure? Interesting. > > Stacy. > > At 08:34 PM 12/16/2002 +, you wrote: > > > > >Hi George! Nice to see your sig here, welcome to the Zion list. I have > >found it to be a great refuge from the sanity of the world. ;-) > > > >Near as I can determine, George and I seem to be cousins--which probably > >accounts for the similarity in our last names. > > > >--- > >Jim Cobabe > > > >/// /// > >/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > >/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > >/// // > > > > > > > > > > > >--- > >Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > >Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] "heck" ain't cussin
Marc - would it be true to say that we LDS believe in a universal definition
of Godhood, and what is entailed in that high station, and see infinite
manifestations of that universal concept? What is "God" is a universal
constant that many, many are exalted to conform with?
If this is true - then does the false notion of trinitarianism have a basis
in truth, but then it is corrupted in its application?
George
- Original Message -
From: "Marc A. Schindler" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>e Monday, December 16, 2002 12:59 PM
Subject: Re: [ZION] "heck" ain't cussin
I'll give it a try (but of course keep in mind that I'm not defending it,
just
trying to explain it from a creedal Christian point of view).
There are a number of variations of trinitarianism, but I'll stick with the
basic
one set up at the Council of Chalcedon. The creedal statement basically
reads that
God is three in person and one in substance (not three persons in one, which
is
how many LDS -- indeed many Catholics and Protestants themselves,
misunderstand
it). When the Orthodox and Roman churches split in the 11th century or
thereabouts, it was over a minor aspect of trinitarianism which I won't get
into
here, but the eastern churches felt that this was a mystery which transcends
rational understanding, and culturally they had no problem with that. This
approach dates back to the Cappadocians of the 4th or 5th century.
The Roman approach was taken by Augustine and expanded. Augustine felt that
there
had to be a rational explanation, so he took earlier interpretations by a
group of
Church fathers known as the Apologists (because they defended early
Christianity
against Jewish and Greek pagan critics) and expanded on it. The Apologists
were
the first well-educated members (as a group) but they were trained in the
Greek
tradition of rationalism, also sometimes called neo-hellenism, or to get
technical, Middle Platonism. Plato held that there existed something called
a
"universal." If you have a red chair, then clearly it exists as a chair. But
does
"redness" exist independently? Some would say, no it doesn't -- it's merely
a
characteristic of something which exists, but Plato taught that it has an
independent existence. The Middle Platonists took this idea of the universal
and
said that that's what "God" is: a universal, which manifests itself in three
different persons.
When you read the original Greek of John 1:1, known as the Johannine
Prologue,
part of the verse reads "...and the Word was God." The naive literalist
interpretation of this by creedal Christians is that Jesus Christ was a
manifestation of God. However, this interpretation has to be read back into
the
original text, because John wrote in ignorance of Platonism, and the Greek
actually indicates what's known as a predicate relationship between the Word
and
God (the Father).
Here's what I mean by a predicate relationship, as opposed to an identity
relationship (the naive, everyday Protestant's and Catholic's view, and the
caricature that most LDS have of the trinity).
When I say "The United States is the 50 states, territories, the land and
inhabitants thereof, plus the government" I am making an identity statement.
I am,
in effect, defining, in a one-to-one way, what a term *is* (hence "identity"
relationship).
But if I say "The United States is George Washington, Old Glory, motherhood
and
apple pie" I am saying something else entirely. This is clearly not an
identity
relationship. It is known as a "predicate" relationship, something that's
hard to
show in English, but fairly easy to show in NT Greek (by means of an
anarthous
proper noun, for those who care).
What "...and the Word was God" is, is a predicate relationship. It is saying
that
"whatever God was, that, too, was the Word." Trinitarians take this and say
that
that "whatever" is a universal which has independent existence. They believe
that
even though this is not found in John's writing, which predate this
philosophical
view, that trinitarianism is a later but entirely legitimate clarification
of how
to resolve the dilemma of monotheism but three Gods.
We LDS are actually closer to this view than many might think. The
difference is
that we reject Middle Platonism, and would say that the "universal" is an
abstract
concept only. It's as if there were an office with a brass nameplate on it
reading
"God," which has three persons in it.
Does that help, or just muddy the waters more?
Chet wrote:
> Stacy Smith wrote:
> > I think that as a former Protestant I understood much about trinitarian
> > theology and understood what it meant. I had very few vague ideas about
> >
> > the subject.
>
> Could you explain it to me, then? In all my years in Southern Baptist,
> and in all my wife's years in various Protestant churches, neither of us
> thought it made sense. I thought it sounded like an accident with
> Scotty's transporter. ("Aye, Cap'n -- we've accidently merged two life
> forms again.")
Re: [ZION]
Glad to hear it! Heidi the fair Heidi Page [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [Original Message] > From: Paul Osborne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Date: 12/14/2002 10:51:46 AM > Subject: Re: [ZION] > > tumor benign > > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Re: New guy
I can tell you all that Marc forgets nothing. Cobabe is German for "to slay by removing the head" or executioner. George - Original Message - From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 2:52 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Re: New guy I say "off with BOTH their heads!" (that's an in joke they will both get). Rick Mathis wrote: > At 07:14 PM 12/16/2002 +, Stephen wrote: > > >No, we can't have two Cobabes. At least one of them has to be the > >primary Babe. I suppose they'll have to decide between themselves which > >is better-looking. > But, Stephen, "CObabe" implies that there are at least two of them. I > think the list is finally getting it right. > > Rick Mathis > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on" - Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] "heck" ain't cussin
The problem is there's a trap for the innocent here. I know what you mean, and would agree with it. The problem is that Platonists would ascribe an *independent* existence to a characteristic. Kind of like turning an adjective into a noun. So "God" became an abstract and separate existence "an und für sich" (in and of itself, existentially speaking), which laid the ground for later apostate notions such as the God without body, parts or passions. George Cobabe wrote: > Marc - would it be true to say that we LDS believe in a universal definition > of Godhood, and what is entailed in that high station, and see infinite > manifestations of that universal concept? What is "God" is a universal > constant that many, many are exalted to conform with? > > If this is true - then does the false notion of trinitarianism have a basis > in truth, but then it is corrupted in its application? > There is another notion found amongst some of the earliest, Greek-speaking Church Fathers (Augustine readily admitted his ignorance of NT Greek, and the "latinization" influence he had on early Church doctrine was key in the apostasy, imo), called "theosis," a version of which is still found in the Orthodox Church today. The Roman Church has lost even the modern eastern notion, which is usually called "apotheosis" (I think -- I'm going to have to look that up if anyone calls me on it). But first "theosis" -- that simply means becoming God. It's the LDS concept of exaltation and people like Eusebius used it. However, so did Arius, who was on the losing side of a debate about the nature of the trinity at Nicaea in the early 4th century, so the baby got thrown out with the bathwater. But the eastern church kept a version of the "Arian heresy" which meant to get admitted into God's presence and sharing in his glory. So "godhood" exists, and one could say theosis (or in Mormonese, exaltation) is the process of attaining that status, but we wouldn't assign an "an und für sich", or "universal" existence to it. That turns it into a "thing" which we would reject. This is a very fine distinction, and I'm not sure I'm explaining it very well. It's easy to get bogged down in philosophical niceties here. > > George > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Well, since I can't give you liberty . How do you want it? Jon Stacy Smith wrote: > If one is not economically or politically free can they really decide what > they should or should not do? Not really, in my opinion. This is where I > may draw the line with some conservatives. Give me liberty or give me death:! // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
Jim Cobabe (the REAL babe) wrote: > My cynical bent detects that Mayor Rocky felt the tide of public opinion > turning against him in his legalistic maneuvering, and felt that it was > time to do some lawyerly wheeling and dealing. It would be a relief if > this settles the issue. I think the only people gaining anything from > the argument were the lawyers. No. I think that Satan was gaining something here as well. Noj (not a babe at all) // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Re: New guy
Rick Mathis wrote: > But, Stephen, "CObabe" implies that there are at least two of them. I > think the list is finally getting it right. Not true! You would have a coed at a school that had only one female student. She could also be called a Cobabe. Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
It ends up costing the Church again for that which they/we already paid for. I hope that the good citizens of Salt Lake see the hypocrisy in the Mayors action - but I do not hold out hope. George - Original Message - From: "Jon Spencer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal > Jim Cobabe (the REAL babe) wrote: > > My cynical bent detects that Mayor Rocky felt the tide of public opinion > > turning against him in his legalistic maneuvering, and felt that it was > > time to do some lawyerly wheeling and dealing. It would be a relief if > > this settles the issue. I think the only people gaining anything from > > the argument were the lawyers. > > No. I think that Satan was gaining something here as well. > > Noj (not a babe at all) > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Re: New guy
Only if she was really good looking or very smart, but then most Cobabe Coeds were both! George - Original Message - From: "Jon Spencer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 3:28 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] Re: New guy > Rick Mathis wrote: > > But, Stephen, "CObabe" implies that there are at least two of them. I > > think the list is finally getting it right. > > Not true! You would have a coed at a school that had only one female > student. She could also be called a Cobabe. > > Jon > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] "heck" ain't cussin
I find that to understand an apostate doctrine, at least in my limited manner, it is almost always possible to take the doctrine and see the truth from which it sprang (is sprang a word?). There are, I suspect, very few original doctrines in other religions, just variations and corruptions of the true doctrine. If only we could go back to the origins of each belief. Plato, et al, had to have some basis for their beliefs and I would suspect those beliefs could, if we had the right sources and tools, be traced back to original truth. The same would be true for any systems of beliefs. The trap, as you suggest, is that people interpret this phenomena as "developing concepts of God" and other claptrap like that. Adam had a complete understanding of the doctrine as did Abraham, Melchizedek, et al. In fact, it is the deterioration of the truth that we view as the changes in the way people interpret God and the doctrine as a whole. It is all going downhill except as we see restorations and the input from Prophets. It is a point not very many people see. George - Original Message - From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 3:32 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] "heck" ain't cussin The problem is there's a trap for the innocent here. I know what you mean, and would agree with it. The problem is that Platonists would ascribe an *independent* existence to a characteristic. Kind of like turning an adjective into a noun. So "God" became an abstract and separate existence "an und für sich" (in and of itself, existentially speaking), which laid the ground for later apostate notions such as the God without body, parts or passions. George Cobabe wrote: > Marc - would it be true to say that we LDS believe in a universal definition > of Godhood, and what is entailed in that high station, and see infinite > manifestations of that universal concept? What is "God" is a universal > constant that many, many are exalted to conform with? > > If this is true - then does the false notion of trinitarianism have a basis > in truth, but then it is corrupted in its application? > There is another notion found amongst some of the earliest, Greek-speaking Church Fathers (Augustine readily admitted his ignorance of NT Greek, and the "latinization" influence he had on early Church doctrine was key in the apostasy, imo), called "theosis," a version of which is still found in the Orthodox Church today. The Roman Church has lost even the modern eastern notion, which is usually called "apotheosis" (I think -- I'm going to have to look that up if anyone calls me on it). But first "theosis" -- that simply means becoming God. It's the LDS concept of exaltation and people like Eusebius used it. However, so did Arius, who was on the losing side of a debate about the nature of the trinity at Nicaea in the early 4th century, so the baby got thrown out with the bathwater. But the eastern church kept a version of the "Arian heresy" which meant to get admitted into God's presence and sharing in his glory. So "godhood" exists, and one could say theosis (or in Mormonese, exaltation) is the process of attaining that status, but we wouldn't assign an "an und für sich", or "universal" existence to it. That turns it into a "thing" which we would reject. This is a very fine distinction, and I'm not sure I'm explaining it very well. It's easy to get bogged down in philosophical niceties here. > > George > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on" - Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
There's one particular troublemaker named Kurt Van Gorden who will likely try to get himself arrested, and have the ACLU back his legal defence (he tends to work this way -- he sues everyone, into bankruptcy, if he can, but has no assets to speak of himself). That will be an interesting case. Jim Cobabe wrote: > SLC Mayor Rocky Anderson just announced a new proposed plan to settle > the Main Street Plaza legal controversy. It appears that Mayor Rocky is > ready to concede that the Church should have full control of Plaza > access, and in exchange for offering this compromise, he suggests that > the Church should donate some property holdings on the west side of SLC > for construction and development of community improvement facilities. > Bishop Burton responded to the proposal favorably and suggested that the > matter be deliberated further at the city council meeting on Tuesday. > > My cynical bent detects that Mayor Rocky felt the tide of public opinion > turning against him in his legalistic maneuvering, and felt that it was > time to do some lawyerly wheeling and dealing. It would be a relief if > this settles the issue. I think the only people gaining anything from > the argument were the lawyers. > > --- > Mij Ebaboc > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] New guy
Who's on first. What's on second. New Guy must the name of the outfielder whose name I never got. Larry Jackson ___ George Cobabe: NO - that is wrong - the wrong one is Wright! THAT is right! Who's on second? Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Iran's Nukes
Is this a new thread, or a continuation of an old one? I didn't know Iran had nukes. Chet wrote: > May I see a show of hands of those who are surprised that there's been > evidence since September? Now a show of hands that believe the > facilities are for peaceful purposes? > > Y'know, after 1963, weren't we promised an entirely different kind of > 21st century? Especially by the Jetsons? > > *jeep! > --Chet > "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you > are doing the impossible." > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Crokinole: Canada's unknown Christmas favourite game
Crokinole has come out of the closet and back onto the tables at Christmastime family reunions: <<http://www.globeandmail.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/PEstory/TGAM/20021216/UROYYN/Columnists/columnists/columnistsNational_temp/1/1/4/.. I am the BEST 20-point shooter in my entire extended family. Ignore what my brother claims. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] Canada watch: First Nations leader comes under attack for anti-Semiticr
Past chief of the Assembly of First Nations, David Ahenakew, has come
under all kinds of attacks for some rather incredible Jew-bashing. I
cannot believe anyone, let alone a leader of his supposed stature, could
say the kind of things that are being alleged. If true, I would agree
that he should have his Order of Canada revoked. Caution: this is, er,
"vivid" material. Fortunately the current leader of the Federation of
Saskatchewan Indian Nations (a post Ahenakew also held in the past),
immediately distanced his organization from Ahenakew's remarks. [his
name, btw, is pronounced ah-HEN-a-queue]
http://www.nationalpost.com/home/story.html?id={EAFA253B-65C3-40AC-8591-065DAA06EAD8}
--
Marc A. Schindler
Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland
Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he
will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill
Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the
author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the
authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author
may be associated.
//
/// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at ///
/// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html ///
/
==^^===
This email was sent to: archive@jab.org
EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2
Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail!
http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register
==^^===
RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Stacy Smith wrote: --- If one is not economically or politically free can they really decide what they should or should not do? Not really, in my opinion. This is where I may draw the line with some conservatives. Give me liberty or give me death:! --- Interestingly, we are able to enjoy economic and political freedom in part to the extent that laws and governments protect human rights and the exercise thereof. Religious freedom cannot seem to sustain itself in an anarchistic environment. Our propensity for tyranny and oppression always seems to overcome natural rights when unprotected by the rule of law. Church doctrine and policy support the ideal of laws which promote freedom and righteousness. "I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves." (Joseph Smith quoted by John Taylor, _JD_ 10:57-58.) While this idea suggests the informed exercise of agency leading to righteous living, this obviously does not happen in a vacuum. Being taught "correct principles" implies a common understanding of the laws which govern. Without these laws, there is no freedom. "The individual has as full a measure of capability to violate the laws of health, the requirements of nature, and the commandments of God in matters both temporal and spiritual, as he has to obey all such; in the one case he brings upon himself the penalties that belong to the broken law; as in the other he inherits the specific blessings and the added freedom that attend a law-abiding life. Obedience to law is the habit of the free man; the transgressor fears the law, for he brings upon himself deprivation and restraint, not because of the law, which would have protected him in his freedom, but because of his antagonism to law." (Talmage, _Articles of Faith_ p46.) "At a clear and extreme level, violations of inalienable rights by a government might excuse citizens from the performance of some obligations of citizenship. But the history of Latter-day Saints' relations to their governments shows that any such exceptions would have to be far more extreme than anything we have experienced in this country. "Even when victimized by what they must surely have seen as very severe government oppressions and abridgments of freedom, the Mormon people and their leaders have remained loyal to their government and its laws. Think of the persecutions in Missouri, the expulsion from Nauvoo, and the repressions suffered in the Utah Territory. As long as a government provides aggrieved persons an opportunity to work to enlarge their freedoms and relieve their oppressions by legal and peaceful means, a Latter-day Saint citizen's duty is to forego revolution and disobedience of law. Our doctrine commits us to work from within. Even an oppressive government is preferable to a state of lawlessness and anarchy in which the only ruling principle is force and every individual has a thousand oppressors. (See D&C 134:6.) "Church members who seek to use LDS doctrine as a basis for concluding that government infringements on inalienable rights have excused them from obeying the law seem to have forgotten the principle of following the prophets. Until the prophets invoke this principle, faithful members will also refrain from doing so. We remain committed to uphold our governments and to obey their laws." (Dallin H. Oaks, Some Responsibilities of Citizenship, BYU Marriott Center, July 3, 1994) Elder Oaks' speech is one of the finest discussions available on this topic of doctrinal support for honoring the law. It is worth studying. Here's a link to the full text-- "http://www.ldsinfobase.net/liberty/DHO_citizenship.htm"; --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
Jon Spencer wrote: --- No. I think that Satan was gaining something here as well. --- Provocative thought. Whereby does Satan gain, in this world? Perhaps in stirring up the hearts of men to anger and contention. (This is where the lawyers come in.) But a consistent lesson from the scriptures seems to be that Satan does not significantly thwart the progress of Heavenly Father's work, notwithstanding all his demonic scheming. I have to conclude about the Main Street deal, if it closes with the current proposal, that the Church does not deal with the devil. If Church Leaders agree to the current arrangement, it must also have the blessing of God. I have no doubt that Heavenly Father looks with great pleasure and approval on the works of the Church, that He directs the decisions, and that all things work together for good in the building up of His Church and Kingdom. --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
Mark Gregson wrote: > Well, I got on the back of a motorbike once and it fell over. So I know > that they must be dangerous. I was zipping along a Missouri road back in 1975 and fell off my motorcycle. Luckily, my fall was broken by my face on the pavement or I could've hurt myself. So it's not motorcycles which are dangerous. It's roads. Or faces. *jeep! --Chet "Start by doing what's necessary, then what's possible, and suddenly you are doing the impossible." // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New guy
George Cobabe wrote: > NO - that is wrong - the wrong one is Wright! THAT is right! > > Who's on second? OK, once more -- it's WHAT on second. Who is on first. Don't mess around with the infield. > - Original Message - > From: "Chet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 12:52 PM > Subject: RE: [ZION] New guy > > > > > > Stacy Smith wrote: > > > Not you. I'll take you any day over this other character. His last > > > name > > > is Wright. > > > > So Wright is wrong. I'll have to remember that. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
Marc A. Schindler favored us with: There's one particular troublemaker named Kurt Van Gorden who will likely try to get himself arrested, and have the ACLU back his legal defence (he tends to work this way -- he sues everyone, into bankruptcy, if he can, but has no assets to speak of himself). That will be an interesting case. Where are you Orrin Porter Rockwell, now that we need you? --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
George Cobabe favored us with: It ends up costing the Church again for that which they/we already paid for. I hope that the good citizens of Salt Lake see the hypocrisy in the Mayors action - but I do not hold out hope. Thanks to public education and television most people will believe anything. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] algore
Gary Smith favored us with: What do I think of John Kerrey? I think he is an honest man, which will be a refreshing change for a candidate from the Democratic party He is rather liberal on some issues, moderate on others. He works well with those on both sides of the aisle, and isn't an attack dog like Daschle or Gephardt. How did Kerry vote on the Clinton acquittal? If he voted to leave Clinton in office, he is not honest. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Re: New guy
George Cobabe favored us with: George has to be better looking, because Jim is definitely smarter. But to tell you the truth if you have seen one Cobabe you will recognize the rest. Just happy to be here and living off what I suspect is the good name of good o'cousin Jim. Well, you couldn't have found a forum where the Cobabe name is held in higher esteem, thanks to Cousin Jim. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
Hi George, I'm glad you came to the Zion list. I have enjoyed your postings at FAIR. I'm sure you will find the Zion list to be a place of refuge. Sometimes we argue a little but we learn so much. This is a list where members really care about each other. I've only been here a couple years and they haven't thrown me out yet. Again, welcome. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Just finished reading....
Gary Smith favored us with: People rarely gain revelation from watching tv shows, regardless of how exciting or neat they are. But when we concentrate in the spiritual realm, we attune ourselves to the spiritual things. For me, their words are great, but even greater is the spiritual insight I gain. Here in Alaska we can tune our dish to receive BYU TV. In that case, we get a constant flood of light and truth into our home, past conference talks, forum assemblies, BYU speeches of the year, Women's conference, BYU education week, etc. It isn't the medium that corrupts but the message. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** "...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest" --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] NOMA: A Contrarian view
Jim Cobabe wrote: > Steven, > > NOMA is a contemptuous science insider's joke--a condescending pat on > the head for the idiot child. > NOMA is also very similar to what the 1P said in 1931 in the last official statement on the origin of man: leave science to the scientists and religion to the Brethren. So be careful of criticizing it just because it was written by an agnostic. > > John Pratt is an easy target for the irreverent skeptics. His > credentials are weak. He tends to wander off into explorations of the > wierd and wonderful instead of submitting serious papers to refereed > science journals. So, anyone serious about "true science" can dismiss > him and anything he says with the usual patronizing wink and nod. > Why would criticism of someone for going into the weird and wonderful on the basis of being scientific be considered "irreverent"? > > It's all simply figurative anyway. ;-) > > --- > Mij Ebaboc > > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
RE: [ZION] Banning motorcycles
Elmer L. Fairbank favored us with: No, no keep the bike, just don't grease your hair and get a misshapen eagle on your forearm. Motorcycles are kewl. Have to admit though, they're not so great right about this time of year. That depends on whether you live in the northern or southern hemisphere. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] Iran's Nukes
Marc A. Schindler favored us with: Is this a new thread, or a continuation of an old one? I didn't know Iran had nukes. I have some anxiety that we may soon find out who has and does not have nukes. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
Thank you, Paul. I have learned that you are a good one to have in a corner. George - Original Message - From: "Paul Osborne" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 8:16 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] New guy > Hi George, > > I'm glad you came to the Zion list. I have enjoyed your postings at FAIR. > I'm sure you will find the Zion list to be a place of refuge. Sometimes > we argue a little but we learn so much. This is a list where members > really care about each other. I've only been here a couple years and they > haven't thrown me out yet. > > Again, welcome. > > Paul O > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today > Only $9.95 per month! > Visit www.juno.com > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
Jim the Babe wrote: > > Jon Spencer wrote: > --- > No. I think that Satan was gaining something here as well. > --- > > Provocative thought. Whereby does Satan gain, in this world? Perhaps > in stirring up the hearts of men to anger and contention. (This is > where the lawyers come in.) But a consistent lesson from the scriptures > seems to be that Satan does not significantly thwart the progress of > Heavenly Father's work, notwithstanding all his demonic scheming. The work may progress - DOES progress - but individual progression remains an individual choice. The more controversy that can be raised, the more negative press that can be generated to turn the great unwashed (:-) away from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the more Satan (thinks he) gains, and the greater number of our brothers and sisters will be held to a lower kingdom. That is what I think Satan could be gaining. Jon // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] "heck" ain't cussin
Jon Spencer wrote: > I watched a very learned Lutheran schoolar explain this entire subject (the > Trinity) on TV once, and I felt inclined to write to the school that gave > him his doctor of divinity degree and advise them to retract it. > > It was pure, illogical gibberish, with many hidden (and unproven) > assumptions. As someone who grew up as a Presby and listenned to all that I > could to try to understand the mainstream Christian faith, I can attest to > the inability of anyone I encountered to adequately explain this mythology > or provide any consistent scriptural basis for it. I have searched for a > book which intelligently explains it to no avail. I have found, however, a > book which traces the source of this concept to of all people our old > a2+b2=c2 friend, Pythagoras. The book is called "How Greek Philosophy > Corrupted the Christian Concept of God" by Richard R. Hopkins, and published > by Horizon. I would add a hearty "amen" to your recommendation of this book. I've just dabbled in it here and there when I needed a reference for something, so far, but I do intend to read it from cover to cover. > I believe that it was out of print for a time (Horizon is a > rather small LDS publisher, and I think they just ran out of stock) but I > believe that it is available again. It's not on our store's website, but > I'll check into it if anyone is interested. People in my ward have borrowed > the book from me and want their own copy. > > Jon > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God
If you want to learn more about trinitarianism (albeit from an LDS pov, where I attack it), I've written 2 versions out of a planned series of 3. The first was printed in FAIR's early series of monthly newsletters, and was the "short" version. The "medium" version is on my website at http://www.members.shaw.ca/mschindler/C/trinity_1.html I've promised FAIR a "long" version eventually, but it's taking time (well, it *is* the long version, after all, and I want to make sure I understand some of the twists and turns the doctrine has taken in its long and confusing history before I try to attack it) Jon Spencer wrote: > I checked at our store today, and lo and behold, we do have the book "How > Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God." I added it to our > website, with the following description (actually, only the first two > paragraphs would fit - but you get all three!). It is a very good book, > well worth the reading. > > Jon > > "How Greek Philosophy Corrupted the Christian Concept of God" brings > profound new insights to the Trinitarian doctrines of "orthodox" > Christianity. With clear and precise documentation, the book shows how these > doctrines migrated into early Christianity from Greek philosophy. The > various aspects of Trinitarian belief are isolated, linked to their Greek > sources, and carefully analyzed to show how they differ radically from > biblical teaching. > > The writings of early Church Fathers, portrayed in their historical context, > show that during the second century theological concepts taught in Platonism > were adopted as Christians struggled to end Roman persecution. Emperor > Marcus Aurelius, a famous Stoic philosopher, was putting Christians to death > because their beliefs did not conform to the Hellenized religion of the day. > The book shows that the early Church Fathers sought to save their people's > lives by re-defining the Christian God in Greek terms. Their efforts > brought metaphysics to Christianity and ushered in concepts like the > Trinity. > > After presenting the historical setting in which these philosophical errors > were embraced as Christian doctrine, the book compares orthodox Christian > theology today, called "classical theism," to biblical teachings. The book > identifies how Greek philosophy has influenced each of the major attributes > of God taught in classical theism. Modern theologians are challenged on > numerous doctrinal points that found their way from Greek philosophy into > ancient creeds, but are found wanting in the light of careful theological, > historic and scientific analysis. This book constitutes a major challenge > to those who accept the tenants of classical theism, but do not know the > many aspects of their doctrine that are based on Greek philosophy. > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] trinitarianism
I can't find the email where I gave the link to the article on trinitarianism on my website, but I went to the site, and found that the article isn't in very good shape (the formatting is inconsistent and the footnotes are all messed up). So if you wait a few days I'll try to whip it into better shape. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] Afghanistan improved?
Marc A. Schindler favored us with: Contrary to what seems to be the general impression in the U.S. that Afghanistan has improved with the overthrow of the Taliban regime, there are signs that the ancien regime has returned -- the "Northern Alliance" was, of course, nothing but the original gang of thugs who ran the country, and according to the latest issue of Jane's Intelligence Review, Afghanistan is once again the world's largest opium producer. There is a strong belief held on the radical right in this country that while George H. Bush was the head of the CIA, he set up the heroine distribution system by which narcotics from this part of the world were transported to the USA. Bo Gritz had a lot to say on the matter. Of course Bo Gritz lost most of his credibility when he left the Church and proved himself to be a mere opportunist. Anyway, if it is true the Bush, Sr. helped create a market for Afghan opium, it would explain why that market and distribution system remains intact after a Bush, Jr. victory. I'm sure this is just a pack of lies told about our honorable leaders. At least I hope so. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday School and seminary classes every fourth year. This four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by Church members in their personal and family study. We need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
George Cobabe favored us with: I am glad to be one of the newest member of this list. By its description it is what I have been looking for - a list of LDS faithful ready to discuss without rancor. Well, there are moments of rancor, but like a faithful family we try to keep it to a minimum. I live in Ogden and have been a member all of my life and with a heritage in the church back to the 1830's. But the testimony I enjoy had to be earned just like the newest member and in my case it has been received many times over. I am married to the lovely Sylvia and we have five children and eight beautiful grandchildren. Currently on the Ogden University High Council and loving it. The kids you send to Weber State are the greatest in the world. So tell us how you are related to Jim. Any friend or family of Jim Cobabe is a friend of mine. I hope that I am right about the list - I look forward to receiving the first messages from you. We are glad to have you among us. I hope we live up to your lofty expectations. If not, consider it an exercise in Christlike forgiveness. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === At present, the Book of Mormon is studied in our Sunday School and seminary classes every fourth year. This four-year pattern, however, must not be followed by Church members in their personal and family study. We need to read daily from the pages of the book that will get a man "nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book." (Ezra Taft Benson, October 1988) === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
Stacy Smith favored us with: I'm always glad to see new people, even people I might recognize. But I would be worried if I saw someone I didn't like or want to see. What should I do if I should ever see someone suspicious on here? Write private email to John W. Redelfs or Gary Smith, the two listowners. Share your worries with them in private. They are the only ones with the list password, and hence the only ones that can solve the problem. John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** "...by proving contraries, truth is made manifest" --Joseph Smith, History of the Church, Volume 6, p.248 *** All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Stalkers (was: New guy)
Chet favored us with: I wrote (and I'll take the blame for it): >And John (our Beloved List Tyrant) can help you out as far as this >list >goes. Gee, wasn't it just swell of me to volunteer John like that? Sorry 'bout that, big guy. I let my outrage overpower my typing fingers when I should've e-mailed you first. (Even though my e-mail is down again. MStar used to be s good!) It just says "ditto" to something I already posted to the list. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Jim Cobabe favored us with: "Church members who seek to use LDS doctrine as a basis for concluding that government infringements on inalienable rights have excused them from obeying the law seem to have forgotten the principle of following the prophets. Until the prophets invoke this principle, faithful members will also refrain from doing so. We remain committed to uphold our governments and to obey their laws." (Dallin H. Oaks, "Some Responsibilities of Citizenship", BYU Marriott Center, July 3, 1994) Following this same train of thought, here are questions 7-9 in the screening questionnaire I use for my Moroni list: 7. I believe the Twelfth Article of Faith: "We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law." A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Don't know D. Disagree F. Strongly disagree 8. But I also believe D&C 134:5 which reads: "We believe that all men are bound to sustain and uphold the respective governments in which they reside, WHILE PROTECTED IN THEIR INHERENT AND INALIENABLE RIGHTS, by the laws of such governments; and that sedition and rebellion are unbecoming every citizen thus protected, and should be punished accordingly; and that all governments have a right to enact such laws as in their own judgments are best calculated to secure the public interest; at the same time, however, holding sacred the freedom of conscience." A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Don't know D. Disagree F. Strongly disagree 9. However, when these two are in apparent contradiction, I believe that it is the Priesthood led by the President of the Church, rather than the individual that makes the final determination as to which principle is supreme at any given moment. A saint does not take the law into his own hands. A. Strongly agree B. Agree C. Don't know D. Disagree F. Strongly disagree John W. Redelfs [EMAIL PROTECTED] === "Atheistic humanism is the opiate of the self-described intellectuals" --Uncle Bob === All my opinions are tentative pending further data. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Iran's Nukes
John W. Redelfs wrote: --- I have some anxiety that we may soon find out who has and does not have nukes. --- There were some misleading news reports on this, I think. In the headlines last Friday. Those rotten news guys, they're always trying to increase John's anxiety. :-) Some of the headlines seemed to be asserting that evidence was found indicating that Iran is developing nuclear weapons. More detailed reports indicated that the satellite surveillance photos from last September actually found evidence of the construction of unreported nuclear power facilities, some of which _might_ be used in the production of weapons material, which Iran currently does not have access to. Much of this has been subsequently clarified by the Russians, who are apparently providing the technological support for construction of the Iranian facilities. Several of the news reports I read asserted with some authority that Iran definitely does _not_ currently have nuclear weapons production capability. I was interested to learn that the Russians are now selling nuclear technological knowhow. What a refreshing change for the world to buy their nuclear plants from the Russians, instead of from the Canadians, or the PRC. Perhaps the Russian bid was cheaper. ;-> --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
You are saying WHAT is right? I thought Wright was wrong? If Wright is What, then who is wrong? Is that right, or is George wrong? And if that is the case it will be necessary to start all over again. Could that be right, wright. or wrong? George - Original Message - From: "Chet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 8:16 PM Subject: RE: [ZION] New guy > George Cobabe wrote: > > NO - that is wrong - the wrong one is Wright! THAT is right! > > > > Who's on second? > > OK, once more -- it's WHAT on second. Who is on first. Don't mess > around with the infield. > > > - Original Message - > > From: "Chet" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 12:52 PM > > Subject: RE: [ZION] New guy > > > > > > > > > > Stacy Smith wrote: > > > > Not you. I'll take you any day over this other character. His last > > > > name > > > > is Wright. > > > > > > So Wright is wrong. I'll have to remember that. > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] "heck" ain't cussin
George Cobabe favored us with: Marc - would it be true to say that we LDS believe in a universal definition of Godhood, and what is entailed in that high station, and see infinite manifestations of that universal concept? What is "God" is a universal constant that many, many are exalted to conform with? Would it be possible for you to rephrase this more simply? I am afraid it is above my reading level, and I don't understand. --JWR // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] prayer of the day
They don't make 'em like that old curmudgeon Samuel Johnson anymore (Johnson is probably best known for his dictionary, one of the earliest English dictionaries). This prayer is meant not to be whispered, but to be proclaimed by one with good lungs and a well-buttoned waistcoat [pronounced wes'cut, of course...] December 13, 2002 Feast of Lucy, Martyr at Syracuse, 304 Commemoration of Samuel Johnson, Writer, Moralist, 1784 Almighty and most merciful Father, I again appear in Thy presence the wretched misspender of another year which Thy mercy has allowed me. O Lord let me not sink into total depravity, look down upon me, and rescue me at last from the captivity of sin. Impart to me good resolutions, and give me strength and perseverance to perform them. Take not from me Thy Holy Spirit, but grant that I may redeem the time lost, and that by temperance and diligence, by sincere repentance and faithful obedience I may finally attain everlasting happiness, for the sake of Jesus Christ our Lord. ... Samuel Johnson (1709-1784) Thanks to Kathryn Daniel, a Canadian LDS originally from Barbados now living in Bermuda, for this. -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
[ZION] 'Twas the Night Before Christmas...out on the desert sands
By a smart-aleck Canadian (Bruce Calder) > 'Twas the Night Before Christmas 2002 > by Bruce H.G. Calder > http://www.calder.net/ > > >'Twas the night before Christmas, when outside Iraq, >American soldiers prepared to attack; >The U.N. inspectors had searched everywhere, >To find all the weapons they knew that were there; > >Saddam was all nestled all snug in his bed, >While Tomahawk Cruise missiles flew overhead; >In my oil heated house I turned on the T.V., >And saw Connie Chung introduce a live feed. > >And out on the sands there arose such a rumble, >Republican guardsmen knew they were in trouble. >Turning their turrets, tanks' gun barrels flash, >Precisely converting their targets to ash. > >The tracers above with their orangey glow, >Gave the lustre of mid-day to objects below, >When what to my wondering eyes should appear, >But the White House press room, many journalists near, > >With a large entourage, all kissing his tush, >I knew right away it was President Bush. >More rapid than smart bombs, his cabinet came, >And he whistled and shouted and called them by name; > >"Now, Powell! now, Rumsfeld!" He spoke to the nation, >Rice, Ashcroft and Cheney, in an undisclosed location." >"Until Saddam is gone the U.S. is undaunted," >With a straight face he said, "War was not what I wanted." > >As his father before the young Bush guaranteed, >That he'll fight night and day 'till those people are freed, >So all over Baghdad, the bombers they flew, >With a big load of napalm and some cluster bombs too. > >And then the tanks roll and with fortresses flying, >They crashed the front lines, never knowing who's dying. >The war had begun and all knew who would lose, >So Saddam starts to shout, "Time to kill me some Jews!" > >And the rockets he fired to vent his frustration, >Were matched by the lighting quick retaliation; >Some billions of cash he had flung on his back, >Thankful that he had remembered to pack. > >And Bush how he swaggered, his war was perfection, >He knew he would certainly win re-election, >Iraqis were cheering the freedom in store, >Ironically hating The West a bit more; > >Osama responded, or one in his name, >That the Great Christian Satan must bear all the blame; >The suicide bombers he freely admits, >Will now blow your brothers and mothers to bits. > >He was homely and gaunt, a pathetic old man, >But I feared for the terror he surely would plan; >The horror he said that would soon be revealed, >Convinced me America never should yield. > >Bush spoke to the country promoting the war, >Inferring that no one should vote for Al Gore, >And saying that freedom must come from a gun, >Then hopped up the stairs and got on Air Force One; > >He took to the skies heading off to his ranch, >The head of the U.S. executive branch, >I thought of the soldiers so far far away, >And thanked them that I may enjoy Christmas day. > Bruce H.G. Calder - December 13, 2002 -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the authors employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=== This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^^===
Re: [ZION] New guy
At 09:16 PM 12/16/2002 -0600, Paul wrote: Hi George, I'm glad you came to the Zion list. I have enjoyed your postings at FAIR. I'm sure you will find the Zion list to be a place of refuge. Sometimes we argue a little but we learn so much. So, George, what's your favourite calibre? Rick Mathis // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New guy
-George- > Could that be right, wright. or wrong? The "W" should be capitalized. Write "Wright" right. (But don't fixate on it to the point that you feel compelled to do so, or you'll find yourself performing the "Write 'Wright' right" rite.) Stephen // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
Re: [ZION] New guy
Just so long as that other guy named Wright doesn't come along. Well, I'm sure you'll look out for him. He might be trouble. Stacy. At 09:16 PM 12/16/2002 -0600, you wrote: Hi George, I'm glad you came to the Zion list. I have enjoyed your postings at FAIR. I'm sure you will find the Zion list to be a place of refuge. Sometimes we argue a little but we learn so much. This is a list where members really care about each other. I've only been here a couple years and they haven't thrown me out yet. Again, welcome. Paul O [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] The latest from Iraq
Actually, the permanent members of the Security Council all received it at the same time. Russia condemned the document at the same time the US did. It was the temporary members who received the delayed copy, to ensure classified nuclear information did not slip out into the hands of non-nuclear countries (like Syria, which is on the Council right now). K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: No, Larry -- the U.S. insisted on looking it over first before giving it to other permanent members of the Security Council, which is only 5 nations (technically speaking, not the "UN" -- that implies the General Assembly). This was public news, I'm not making it up. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] New guy
First off, welcome to George, whom I am acquainted with on another list. Second, to answer Stacy: JWR and I keep an eye on things here. If you see or hear something that concerns you, let us know in private email and we'll look into it. I've personally checked George Cobabe's financial investments out,while JWR is checking on his past sordid high school history. We'll let you know what we find, as we'll publish his tax returns shortly on the website And George was hoping this wasn't a friendly list! K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Stacy: I'm always glad to see new people, even people I might recognize. But I would be worried if I saw someone I didn't like or want to see. What should I do if I should ever see someone suspicious on here? Stacy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] LOTR
Hm. First Tom Matkin claims to dislike LOTR, and now Marc says he isn't a fan. Maybe there is something in the water up there in Canada??? Mark Gregson doesn't seem to be affected much by it, but it may just be a matter of time. If I notice Mark discussing the benefits of socialized medicine, I'll know he's been assimilated! K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Marc: I'm not a Tolkien fan -- nothing negative. I did read The Hobbit years ago but just never got around to any of the trilogy. Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] LOTR
Spoiler warning Mark Gregson gave some answers, but not all were correct. Here are the corrected ones: > 4) Who is Gollum's friend that helps him? Mark: He didn't have any friends. He _claimed_ to have powerful friends, meaning of course Sauron and his evil minions. They did help him escape the Elves but it wasn't an act of friendship. Gary: Actually, his friend was Shelob the spider. > 6) How many palantiri are there total, and how many are known of by the > end of book 3? Mark: Hmm, I'm running through the Rhymes of Lore and I believe it goes: Seven stones and one white tree. End of book three: that would have to be two; Saruman's and Sauron's.I've forgotten what happened to the other four. Lost or destroyed, but how? Gary: Actually, there are three known. The Steward of Gondor also has one, which falls into the plot of the ensuing movies. Oh, and I have the other three. I'm keeping two and selling the others on EBay So you did decently on the questions, getting most right, and some partially correct. The only one you totally failed on would be question #4, where he and Shelob work in conjunction with each other to get what they want. K'aya K'ama, Gerald/gary Smithgszion1 @juno.comhttp://www .geocities.com/rameumptom/index.html "No one is as hopelessly enslaved as the person who thinks he's free." - Johann Wolfgang von Goethe Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] Curiosity About Alma 1:21
Well said. This country has not done anything that would make me wish to disobey its laws. But I have an interesting file by an Institute teacher on agency. If anybody wants it I would be inclined to send it privately. Stacy. At 02:58 AM 12/17/2002 +, you wrote: Stacy Smith wrote: --- If one is not economically or politically free can they really decide what they should or should not do? Not really, in my opinion. This is where I may draw the line with some conservatives. Give me liberty or give me death:! --- Interestingly, we are able to enjoy economic and political freedom in part to the extent that laws and governments protect human rights and the exercise thereof. Religious freedom cannot seem to sustain itself in an anarchistic environment. Our propensity for tyranny and oppression always seems to overcome natural rights when unprotected by the rule of law. Church doctrine and policy support the ideal of laws which promote freedom and righteousness. "I teach them correct principles and they govern themselves." (Joseph Smith quoted by John Taylor, _JD_ 10:57-58.) While this idea suggests the informed exercise of agency leading to righteous living, this obviously does not happen in a vacuum. Being taught "correct principles" implies a common understanding of the laws which govern. Without these laws, there is no freedom. "The individual has as full a measure of capability to violate the laws of health, the requirements of nature, and the commandments of God in matters both temporal and spiritual, as he has to obey all such; in the one case he brings upon himself the penalties that belong to the broken law; as in the other he inherits the specific blessings and the added freedom that attend a law-abiding life. Obedience to law is the habit of the free man; the transgressor fears the law, for he brings upon himself deprivation and restraint, not because of the law, which would have protected him in his freedom, but because of his antagonism to law." (Talmage, _Articles of Faith_ p46.) "At a clear and extreme level, violations of inalienable rights by a government might excuse citizens from the performance of some obligations of citizenship. But the history of Latter-day Saints' relations to their governments shows that any such exceptions would have to be far more extreme than anything we have experienced in this country. "Even when victimized by what they must surely have seen as very severe government oppressions and abridgments of freedom, the Mormon people and their leaders have remained loyal to their government and its laws. Think of the persecutions in Missouri, the expulsion from Nauvoo, and the repressions suffered in the Utah Territory. As long as a government provides aggrieved persons an opportunity to work to enlarge their freedoms and relieve their oppressions by legal and peaceful means, a Latter-day Saint citizen's duty is to forego revolution and disobedience of law. Our doctrine commits us to work from within. Even an oppressive government is preferable to a state of lawlessness and anarchy in which the only ruling principle is force and every individual has a thousand oppressors. (See D&C 134:6.) "Church members who seek to use LDS doctrine as a basis for concluding that government infringements on inalienable rights have excused them from obeying the law seem to have forgotten the principle of following the prophets. Until the prophets invoke this principle, faithful members will also refrain from doing so. We remain committed to uphold our governments and to obey their laws." (Dallin H. Oaks, "Some Responsibilities of Citizenship", BYU Marriott Center, July 3, 1994) Elder Oaks' speech is one of the finest discussions available on this topic of doctrinal support for honoring the law. It is worth studying. Here's a link to the full text-- "http://www.ldsinfobase.net/liberty/DHO_citizenship.htm"; --- Mij Ebaboc // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
RE: [ZION] New guy
Yes, I like those funny jokes too. I was being serious but I don't mind the jokes. Stacy. At 11:31 PM 12/16/2002 +, you wrote: Who's on first. What's on second. New Guy must the name of the outfielder whose name I never got. Larry Jackson ___ George Cobabe: NO - that is wrong - the wrong one is Wright! THAT is right! Who's on second? Sign Up for Juno Platinum Internet Access Today Only $9.95 per month! Visit www.juno.com // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
[ZION] Doctrine
Well, I can see this very well. Stacy. At 04:21 PM 12/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: I find that to understand an apostate doctrine, at least in my limited manner, it is almost always possible to take the doctrine and see the truth from which it sprang (is sprang a word?). There are, I suspect, very few original doctrines in other religions, just variations and corruptions of the true doctrine. If only we could go back to the origins of each belief. Plato, et al, had to have some basis for their beliefs and I would suspect those beliefs could, if we had the right sources and tools, be traced back to original truth. The same would be true for any systems of beliefs. The trap, as you suggest, is that people interpret this phenomena as "developing concepts of God" and other claptrap like that. Adam had a complete understanding of the doctrine as did Abraham, Melchizedek, et al. In fact, it is the deterioration of the truth that we view as the changes in the way people interpret God and the doctrine as a whole. It is all going downhill except as we see restorations and the input from Prophets. It is a point not very many people see. George - Original Message - From: "Marc A. Schindler" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 3:32 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] "heck" ain't cussin The problem is there's a trap for the innocent here. I know what you mean, and would agree with it. The problem is that Platonists would ascribe an *independent* existence to a characteristic. Kind of like turning an adjective into a noun. So "God" became an abstract and separate existence "an und für sich" (in and of itself, existentially speaking), which laid the ground for later apostate notions such as the God without body, parts or passions. George Cobabe wrote: > Marc - would it be true to say that we LDS believe in a universal definition > of Godhood, and what is entailed in that high station, and see infinite > manifestations of that universal concept? What is "God" is a universal > constant that many, many are exalted to conform with? > > If this is true - then does the false notion of trinitarianism have a basis > in truth, but then it is corrupted in its application? > There is another notion found amongst some of the earliest, Greek-speaking Church Fathers (Augustine readily admitted his ignorance of NT Greek, and the "latinization" influence he had on early Church doctrine was key in the apostasy, imo), called "theosis," a version of which is still found in the Orthodox Church today. The Roman Church has lost even the modern eastern notion, which is usually called "apotheosis" (I think -- I'm going to have to look that up if anyone calls me on it). But first "theosis" -- that simply means becoming God. It's the LDS concept of exaltation and people like Eusebius used it. However, so did Arius, who was on the losing side of a debate about the nature of the trinity at Nicaea in the early 4th century, so the baby got thrown out with the bathwater. But the eastern church kept a version of the "Arian heresy" which meant to get admitted into God's presence and sharing in his glory. So "godhood" exists, and one could say theosis (or in Mormonese, exaltation) is the process of attaining that status, but we wouldn't assign an "an und für sich", or "universal" existence to it. That turns it into a "thing" which we would reject. This is a very fine distinction, and I'm not sure I'm explaining it very well. It's easy to get bogged down in philosophical niceties here. > > George > -- Marc A. Schindler Spruce Grove, Alberta, Canada -- Gateway to the Boreal Parkland "Man will occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of the time he will pick himself up and continue on" - Winston Churchill Note: This communication represents the informal personal views of the author solely; its contents do not necessarily reflect those of the author's employer, nor those of any organization with which the author may be associated. // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^^=
Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal
Can I call from out of state? Stacy. At 04:08 PM 12/16/2002 -0700, you wrote: It ends up costing the Church again for that which they/we already paid for. I hope that the good citizens of Salt Lake see the hypocrisy in the Mayors action - but I do not hold out hope. George - Original Message - From: "Jon Spencer" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Monday, December 16, 2002 3:29 PM Subject: Re: [ZION] New Main Street Plaza proposal > Jim Cobabe (the REAL babe) wrote: > > My cynical bent detects that Mayor Rocky felt the tide of public opinion > > turning against him in his legalistic maneuvering, and felt that it was > > time to do some lawyerly wheeling and dealing. It would be a relief if > > this settles the issue. I think the only people gaining anything from > > the argument were the lawyers. > > No. I think that Satan was gaining something here as well. > > Noj (not a babe at all) > > // > /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// > /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// > / > > > // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.423 / Virus Database: 238 - Release Date: 11/25/2002 // /// ZION LIST CHARTER: Please read it at /// /// http://www.zionsbest.com/charter.html /// / ==^ This email was sent to: archive@jab.org EASY UNSUBSCRIBE click here: http://topica.com/u/?aaP9AU.bWix1n.YXJjaGl2 Or send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] T O P I C A -- Register now to manage your mail! http://www.topica.com/partner/tag02/register ==^
