Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Zope on Python 2.5?
On 11/1/07, Peter Sabaini <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I always wondered -- I never had any trouble with the system Pythons, or at > least not a problem that I could attribute to a system Python (Debian Stable > and Ubuntu LTS) Well, try and easy_install i18ndude, and see all your Zope2 instances explode. :-) Even if the system python is nice, as on Ubuntu, you may end up in the situation where you need different versions of modules for the Zope pythons and the system pythons. And although it's fixable after the fact, remeber, you wont see the problem until you restart the zope, and then you forgot what you did, and don't understand suddenly why nothing works. And in worse case, you might after a server restart notice that all of your Zope instances suddenly do not work. And it takes a couple of hours to figure out why and fix it. Downtime you don't want. > Its just so damn convenient if you have to maintain a few dozen VServers to > manage the Pythons including add-on libraries exclusively via "apt-get" Yeah, I haven't found a good solution for that yet. I those libraries should be available as eggs, that solves it. But not all are... -- Lennart Regebro: Zope and Plone consulting. http://www.colliberty.com/ +33 661 58 14 64 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Zope on Python 2.5?
--On 1. November 2007 23:47:28 -0400 Chris McDonough <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Nov 1, 2007, at 1:28 AM, Andreas Jung wrote: --On 31. Oktober 2007 22:00:46 -0700 Alexander Limi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:29:36 -0700, Andreas Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The recommendation is still "System python is evil, evil, evil" (quoting Jim). Sure, but if you ever want to be able to tell users to do: easy_install plone One other point: "easy_install plone" make only sense if the underlying machinery generates an isolated environment for your Plone instance. You really don't want to mess up your system python with a hundred Zope or Plone eggs. This is definitely the road to disaster. On distributions that depends on Python for their internal processing/administration (I think Fedora does) you might break the functionality of your system installation significantly in case of broken or misbehaving eggs. So we must be careful about the story we're telling the users. The obviously easiest way is possibly not the best way (in the long term). I think installing into a virtualenv created by a system Python is at least 50% less evil than installing packages directly into the system Python, and reasonable for a development environment, at least in semi-controlled situations (like Apple's Python). Sure, but users that don't know about virtualenv might run into such problems. Andreas pgpnB1EuLVLRA.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Zope on Python 2.5?
On Nov 1, 2007, at 1:28 AM, Andreas Jung wrote: --On 31. Oktober 2007 22:00:46 -0700 Alexander Limi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:29:36 -0700, Andreas Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The recommendation is still "System python is evil, evil, evil" (quoting Jim). Sure, but if you ever want to be able to tell users to do: easy_install plone One other point: "easy_install plone" make only sense if the underlying machinery generates an isolated environment for your Plone instance. You really don't want to mess up your system python with a hundred Zope or Plone eggs. This is definitely the road to disaster. On distributions that depends on Python for their internal processing/administration (I think Fedora does) you might break the functionality of your system installation significantly in case of broken or misbehaving eggs. So we must be careful about the story we're telling the users. The obviously easiest way is possibly not the best way (in the long term). I think installing into a virtualenv created by a system Python is at least 50% less evil than installing packages directly into the system Python, and reasonable for a development environment, at least in semi- controlled situations (like Apple's Python). - C ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Zope on Python 2.5?
On 11/1/07, Fred Drake <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This seems to be a common misconception; I'm not sure why. > > Python 2.4 has *already* hit EOL. There will only be security fixes > released in source form. > > When a new Python 2.X is released, a final 2.X-1 bugfix release is > made and 2.X becomes the maintenance release. 2.X-1 gets critical > security fixes only. The unreleased trunk becomes the development > version. Ouch. I guess we should skip 2.5 and target 2.6 then to save some time :) -- Sidnei da Silva Enfold Systemshttp://enfoldsystems.com Fax +1 832 201 8856 Office +1 713 942 2377 Ext 214 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Zope on Python 2.5?
On 11/1/07, Sidnei da Silva <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > I think we are closely approaching the > EOL for Python 2.4. Supposedly when Python 2.6 comes out next year > Python 2.4 will be officially discouraged and will not receive any > more fixes other than security fixes. This seems to be a common misconception; I'm not sure why. Python 2.4 has *already* hit EOL. There will only be security fixes released in source form. When a new Python 2.X is released, a final 2.X-1 bugfix release is made and 2.X becomes the maintenance release. 2.X-1 gets critical security fixes only. The unreleased trunk becomes the development version. -Fred -- Fred L. Drake, Jr. "Chaos is the score upon which reality is written." --Henry Miller ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Zope on Python 2.5?
On Thursday 01 November 2007, Jim Fulton wrote: > I think buildout should work harder to get along with system Python. > I intent to spend some effort on this. Martijn has suggested an > option to ignore site-packages which may go a long way. Yeah, one of my clients uses workingenv to use system python without all the additional site-packages and then uses this workingenv's python executable for buildout. It would be great, if he would not need to use workingenv in this case. Regards, Stephan -- Stephan Richter CBU Physics & Chemistry (B.S.) / Tufts Physics (Ph.D. student) Web2k - Web Software Design, Development and Training ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Zope on Python 2.5?
On Nov 1, 2007, at 9:50 AM, Sidnei da Silva wrote: I would like to point out that on this thread people are getting too tied up with restrictions about *installing* stuff on the system Python and forgetting that for example, buildout will not install stuff on the system Python, but people might want to run a Zope (2) buildout on Python 2.5 just because it's the Python they have installed. Agreed. I almost mentioned this as an "otoh" in one of my previous posts. I think buildout should work harder to get along with system Python. I intent to spend some effort on this. Martijn has suggested an option to ignore site-packages which may go a long way. Of course, this has nothing to do with 2.5. :) Jim -- Jim Fulton Zope Corporation ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Zope on Python 2.5?
I would like to point out that on this thread people are getting too tied up with restrictions about *installing* stuff on the system Python and forgetting that for example, buildout will not install stuff on the system Python, but people might want to run a Zope (2) buildout on Python 2.5 just because it's the Python they have installed. Now, putting Limi's proven incapability to start a discussion without causing major commotion from our fellow developers, let's rephrase the question: Will Zope 2 be supported on Python 2.5, regardless of whether it's a system-installed Python or not? I think we are closely approaching the EOL for Python 2.4. Supposedly when Python 2.6 comes out next year Python 2.4 will be officially discouraged and will not receive any more fixes other than security fixes. I believe this is a critical issue and the interested parts need to work together on it. Maybe the Plone Foundation and the Zope Foundation can work together and setup a bounty to fund some developer to do this work? -- Sidnei da Silva Enfold Systemshttp://enfoldsystems.com Fax +1 832 201 8856 Office +1 713 942 2377 Ext 214 ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Zope on Python 2.5?
On Nov 1, 2007, at 14:17 , Jim Fulton wrote: We generally encourage not to use the system Python in everything we ship (Windows, Mac and Unified installers all ship their own Python) Cool. Note that I think this problem will get worse as system packages include more and more of the packages we use. I read yesterday that the Python in Mac OS X Leopard includes zope.interface. Yes, that's true. It's included (version 3.3.0) because Twisted needs it, which is also part of the standard OS X 10.5 Python installation. From what I heard Twisted is used for the OS X Server CalDAV service. From a sysadmin view I'd be afraid that careless use of easy_install for the system Python has the potential to break such built-in OS X applications. Another reason not to use the system Python. jens ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Zope on Python 2.5?
On Nov 1, 2007, at 1:00 AM, Alexander Limi wrote: On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:29:36 -0700, Andreas Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The recommendation is still "System python is evil, evil, evil" (quoting Jim). Sure, but if you ever want to be able to tell users to do: easy_install plone to get their Plone site, it's a necessary evil evil evil. ;) So don't do that. Plone is an application (afaik) not a library. I thought Plone had an installer that installed a local Python. We generally encourage not to use the system Python in everything we ship (Windows, Mac and Unified installers all ship their own Python) Cool. Note that I think this problem will get worse as system packages include more and more of the packages we use. I read yesterday that the Python in Mac OS X Leopard includes zope.interface. — but I really hope we won't be stuck with Python 2.4 after the world has moved on to Python 2.5 and 2.6. This is really a separate issue. I hope we won't either. Unfortunately, supporting them is non-trivial, I think we've made a lot of progress. I agree that for proper deployments, you shouldn't use the system Python, but there's the case of letting people get started with Plone easily from their Ubuntu or Mac OS X (Leopard ships with Python 2.5 and easy_install by default) — we should be able to let them do that too. I don't agree. easy_install is really not well suited to installing applications IMO. I think an installer is a better idea for installing applications, for lots of reasons. Jim -- Jim Fulton Zope Corporation ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Zope on Python 2.5?
On Thursday 01 November 2007 06:18:18 Andreas Jung wrote: > --On 31. Oktober 2007 22:00:46 -0700 Alexander Limi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:29:36 -0700, Andreas Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> The recommendation is still "System python is evil, evil, evil" (quoting > >> Jim). > > > > Sure, but if you ever want to be able to tell users to do: > > > > easy_install plone > > Would be fine but as long as several distros contain brain-dead or > castrated Python installations there is little we can do - even if we would > support > Python 2.5. I always wondered -- I never had any trouble with the system Pythons, or at least not a problem that I could attribute to a system Python (Debian Stable and Ubuntu LTS) Its just so damn convenient if you have to maintain a few dozen VServers to manage the Pythons including add-on libraries exclusively via "apt-get" Which system Pythons do you think are brain dead, and why? Thanks, peter. > > to get their Plone site, it's a necessary evil evil evil. ;) > > > > > > > > > > We generally encourage not to use the system Python in everything we ship > > (Windows, Mac and Unified installers all ship their own Python) — but I > > really hope we won't be stuck with Python 2.4 after the world has moved > > on to Python 2.5 and 2.6. > > Bring the word to the Python packagers. > > > I agree that for proper deployments, you shouldn't use the system Python, > > but there's the case of letting people get started with Plone easily from > > their Ubuntu or Mac OS X (Leopard ships with Python 2.5 and easy_install > > by default) — we should be able to let them do that too. > > See above. Stepping forward with Python 2.5/2.6 support would be fine but > it basically does not solve the problem that system python installation are > often broken. Installation a Python from the sources is usually much more > faster than trying to figure out why a system python is broken once more. ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Zope on Python 2.5?
--On 31. Oktober 2007 22:00:46 -0700 Alexander Limi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:29:36 -0700, Andreas Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The recommendation is still "System python is evil, evil, evil" (quoting Jim). Sure, but if you ever want to be able to tell users to do: easy_install plone One other point: "easy_install plone" make only sense if the underlying machinery generates an isolated environment for your Plone instance. You really don't want to mess up your system python with a hundred Zope or Plone eggs. This is definitely the road to disaster. On distributions that depends on Python for their internal processing/administration (I think Fedora does) you might break the functionality of your system installation significantly in case of broken or misbehaving eggs. So we must be careful about the story we're telling the users. The obviously easiest way is possibly not the best way (in the long term). Andreas pgplvxpag36h9.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
Re: [Zope-dev] Re: Zope on Python 2.5?
--On 31. Oktober 2007 22:00:46 -0700 Alexander Limi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 21:29:36 -0700, Andreas Jung <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: The recommendation is still "System python is evil, evil, evil" (quoting Jim). Sure, but if you ever want to be able to tell users to do: easy_install plone Would be fine but as long as several distros contain brain-dead or castrated Python installations there is little we can do - even if we would support Python 2.5. to get their Plone site, it's a necessary evil evil evil. ;) We generally encourage not to use the system Python in everything we ship (Windows, Mac and Unified installers all ship their own Python) — but I really hope we won't be stuck with Python 2.4 after the world has moved on to Python 2.5 and 2.6. Bring the word to the Python packagers. I agree that for proper deployments, you shouldn't use the system Python, but there's the case of letting people get started with Plone easily from their Ubuntu or Mac OS X (Leopard ships with Python 2.5 and easy_install by default) — we should be able to let them do that too. See above. Stepping forward with Python 2.5/2.6 support would be fine but it basically does not solve the problem that system python installation are often broken. Installation a Python from the sources is usually much more faster than trying to figure out why a system python is broken once more. pgpkpFVlOGvC9.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ Zope-Dev maillist - Zope-Dev@zope.org http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-dev ** No cross posts or HTML encoding! ** (Related lists - http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope-announce http://mail.zope.org/mailman/listinfo/zope )
