ralphpnj wrote:
> Thanks for answering my question.
>
> Now onto your points about opinions. All of these points have more to do
> with the process used to initially record the music and are useful in
> that context. What I'm trying to get are there any recordings where the
> 24 bit version
adamdea wrote:
> WE still keep ploughing with this (slight) fallacy. It is not enough to
> say that the level of quantisation noise (shut up Arnie) is equal to
> that of the recording in order to capture it. It surely has to be
> necessary that the additional noise from quantisation will not
>
It gets hard to separate facts from opinion. Some things are easy... If
you assume a certain dynamic range for the recording (like the 65 dB we
started the discussion with), then the resolution required is just
straight math and in this case 11 bits is sufficient. 20*log(2^11)= 66
dB.
And you
In the example you picked, your point is correct. Since you stated that
the dynamic range of the original performance was 65 dB, then digitizing
it to more than 65 dB is a waste.
If a symphony was limited to 65 dB dynamic range, then 11 bits would be
enough.
But is 65 dB a realistic number for a
increase as signal level decreaes in a
sampled system. As a percent of signal level (not percent of full
scale level), it has to. Every 6 dB of signal reduction doubles the
distortion. No way around that.
Terry
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) (in dB), where Q is the number of bits that
are used to digitize the signal.
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with a 16 bit DAC?
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looking for 20
years
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much improvement
can I expect on music signals? I have never seen anything that
discusses this. Can I expect 10dB? Maybe the answer is frequency
dependant? Like 20 dB at 1kHz, 10 dB at 10kHz?
Has anyone every seen a discussion of that?
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as frequncies, not amplitude. It
seems like both would be equally important.
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be wrong by
one half the minimum step size of the DAC resolution. I don't see how
dithering can fix this unless we are talking about a repetitious signal
so that we can average the errors over multiple samples.
Terry
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is not required for the above to hold
true.
Darren
You lost me. Why would noise ever be correlated to the signal? And
what impact would de-correlating it have?
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work.
That issue is not discussed in this or any other write up I have seen
of dithering. It does work well for signals that are not constantly
changing, but what about music signals that are always changing in
amplitude and frequency?
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the case.
Also, my appologies to the OP for running amok all over this thread.
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, you would need 13 + 17 = 30 bits of
resolution!
Geez, it sucks to be an audiophile
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not one of those that thinks that I need all of the
supersonic harmonics to make the music sound right, but who knows? For
me personally, I know albums are capable of content to about 40kHz, and
I don't think we should ever step backward. So I'm good with 96kHz
sampling rate.
Terry
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we
are done now and can quit trying to improve. Not until we reach
perfect.
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Phil Leigh;630898 Wrote:
TerryS;630894 Wrote:
In reality you cannot have an undithered signal because enough noise to
provide the dither signal is fortunately always present in the input
signal to an ADC when recording real acoustic music.
There is only one known use-case
Phil Leigh;630927 Wrote:
TerryS;630922 Wrote:
That link clearly shows that the completely artificial (for reasons
I've explained in my last post) distortion in the computer-generated
signal at -60dB was changed into noise @~ -90dB. In other words, in
real life the distortion
and
distortion in the dac and amp?
I am guessing that the effects we were discussing are almost* certainly
going to be buried in noise and distortion in chain.
I assume the DAC used would be 24 bit. That should be sufficient to
evaluate a 16 bit source.
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. If you are willing to accept
that, my requirements don't sound like a fairy tale do they?
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encoding process that our present suite of sine wave based tools are
not capable of showing.
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to
understand where the deficiencies lie.
I don't mean to say that sine wave based measurements are not useful
for exactly the reasons you state. I agree with what you say 100%.
But in addition to them, I'd like to see the technique in the first
post become more commonplace.
Terry
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TerryS;630441 Wrote:
I know it doesn't matter to you, but then I'm wondering how you managed
to wander down into the Audiophile forum :-) Terry
Phil,
I apologize for how that sounded. Obviously you have a valid viewpoint
and the inclusion of it makes this a more interesting discussion
supports or a
better mains cable. And they claim to be able to measure the
differences in the signal that those changes caused.
I was only suggesting to expand that technique to compare a good analog
signal to the same signal after being converted to Redbook CD.
Terry
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to be working my
day job debating the merits of this, but quite another to waste my
precious listening time at home! But I hope the technique gets more
widespread use. I don't think we are getting the whole story with the
tools we have been using for the past 50 years or so.
Terry
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won't settle for less than perfection (in
theory). In reality, my wallet will make a different decision for me.
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). But
headphones can blast out enough sound to make your nose bleed.
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be able to measure it.
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) could be a good thing.
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. How many can you reasonably expect to do
on a constantly varying music source? That is my big question with the
merits of dithering on music.
I'm sure it helps, but I've never read any discusion of how much.
Now take a steady sine wave, and you can average to your heart's
content.
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that the distortion must rise at higher
frequencies. But I don't recall ever seeing it spec'd that way for a
CD player. H...
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that, techniques like the one that was the
start of this thread might shed some light.
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recommended above have some good information on this? If so, I'll
order it and give it a good read.
BTW, thanks to everyone for taking the time to enlighten me without
feeling the need to question my ancestory as so often happens in these
kinds of discussions.
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for me perspective.
96 dB of dynamic range sounds great. But if the truth is it only gives
96dB of dynamic range if you are willing to accept unbounded levels of
distortion, I gotta respectfully disagree.
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hear it.
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there that might be better. Be that better equipment,
better source material, or a better way to measure the performance of
it all.
But through it all, sometimes I do manage to just listen to the
music.
Terry
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. Same for the digital
samples versus time that represent the music on a CD. You can't strip
off the MSBs and expect anything useful from the LSBs. But add the
LSBs to the MSBs and you get more resolution.
Terry
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account reaches below a
dollar. Then the least significant digits alone do convey meaning.
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waves.
It is easy to see how dithering works on repetitive signals, but I have
trouble seeing how it helps much on music.
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are capable of anywhere near 96dB of dynamic range if you limit the
definition of dynamic range to only include signal levels with some
reasonable amount of distortion (quantization error).
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audio (analog) digitized by the measurement ADCs, then compare that to
the result after subjecting it to the process that makes it a redbook
CD, which is then played back. How close does this get to the
original?
Terry
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much more commonly used (in addition to sine wave based testing). But
I'm actually curious about things earlier in the chain. How much is
lost in the redbook CD record process?
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is the redbook CD format capable of being
(on music, not on siine waves).
But in general, I'm just glad to see methods like this being applied
instead of the reliance we have had for the past way too many years on
purely sine-wave based characterization of audio equipment.
Terry
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differences. Id be very surprised. But I acknowledge how much more
sensitive the human ear is than the best equipment I have in my lab.
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:)
I honestly don't know why you would expect anything but white noise if
you just play the least significant bits and strip off the MSBs. There
is a pretty good explanation in the thread you linked, down a few posts.
To me the demonstration was meaningless.
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