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Hi Khazeh,
In your last message, you pretty much demonstrated that all Manifestations are
equal. If so, then why does Bahaullah in the Iqan include the tradition that
the Bab revealed all remaining letters of knowledge?
This implies that the Bab revealed *a lot* of
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Hi Susan and Gilberto,
My honest observation is that you are not genuine in your messages. I think you
are going around and around in circles of superstition.
What I mean by this is that you are:
1. Assuming that an unknown exists and that the unknown is
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No, certitude is something else.
There is only One God. Not multiple Gods.
Sent by iPhone
On Jun 27, 2010, at 4:30 PM, Loïc ROYER l...@free.fr wrote:
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Belief is our only certitude! (or what?!)
:-)
hajmog a écrit :
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As I said, I was trying to wrap up and I am reluctant to make detailed comments
about the following. It looks like Matt Haase understood at least some of the
points I made. Gilberto either didn't understand or misunderstood my comments.
But I'm reluctant to try to
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But we get that info from the Dueteronomist source?
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On 26 Jun 2010 at 20:09, Gilberto Simpson wrote:
I think it seems like you are twisting and mischaracterizing what I
wrote. Why couldn't one of the authors J,D, E or P actually have
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Syro-Aramaic_Reading_of_the_Koran
According to Luxenberg, the Qur'an was not written in classical Arabic but in a
mixed Arabic-Syriac language, the traders' language of Mecca and it was based
on Christian liturgical texts. When the
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Stephen,
The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both Prophethood and
Messengership. Otherwise, the Cycle of Prophecy would not have ended, and the
Cycle of Fulfillment would not have started. Furthermore, Baha'is accept the
Shi'i interpretation of
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The Bible does have the prophecy of the Seven Seals. Even if somethings is
sealed, there is always the
possiblity of someone breaking the seal.
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Stephen,
The Baha'i writings are very clear that Muhammad sealed both Prophethood and
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I know there are lot of Hadith that people quote. There are Hadith of varying
authenticites. I found a link that list 100 fabricated Hadith.
http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/books/100FabricatedHadith.pdf
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Dear Hajir:
The Baha'i acceptance, if you will, of Shi`ah is quite nuanced and
sophisticated. As you very well know, Baha'i Writings do not accept all of
Shi`ism in toto, wholesale. For example, Baha'is do not believe that the
promised One, the promised Mahdi, is
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Hi Iskandar,
Would you say Bahais accept the Shaykhi view rather than the Shiah view?
Sent by iPhone
On Jun 28, 2010, at 11:35 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
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Dear Hajir:
The Baha'i acceptance, if you will, of Shi`ah is quite
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Hi, I think I can answer that myself. The Shaykhis didn't all accept the Bab
either, so their view is also partly incorrect.
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Then, there are no definitive interpretations?
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Hi Iskandar,
Would you say Bahais accept the Shaykhi view rather than the Shiah view?
Sent by iPhone
On Jun 28, 2010, at 11:35 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
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Right, plus there are also other aspects of Shaykhism which the Bab and
Baha'u'llah rejected, such as the existence of hurqalya, Jabulqa and
Jabulsa, and the notion of a Fourth Support.
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 10:53 AM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote:
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Then, there are no definitive interpretations?
Because something was true in a previous day does not mean God doesnt change
what is True His Hands cannot be tied. Shaykhi was true in it's own day, but
became false when the Bab appeared. Christianity was true in
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I'm wonder if other Bahais would agree or disagree with that way of
putting things.
On Sun, Jun 27, 2010 at 4:56 PM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote:
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the 10 commandments which are said to be written on tablets with God's own
finger.
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This is the basis of the topic. Can a seal be broken? An example would be the
Seven Seals.
Can a seal mean God's stamp of approval rather than finality?
Can a seal mean authenticity rahter than finality?
Can a seal mean finality until the seal is broken?
Did you know
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I know there are lot of Hadith that people quote. There are Hadith of
varying authenticites. I
What I'm suggesting is that the standard method by which Muslims
decide which hadiths are strong and which are weak may no longer be
the best method for determining
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Dear Gilberto, some would agree others would disagree. These are all personal
interpretations.
We don't believe in interpretation of texts. Every Bahai comes up with their
own personal understanding based on the writings of Shoghi Effendi and the
Universal House of
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http://www.missionislam.com/knowledge/books/100FabricatedHadith.pdf
He lists each Hadith, who categorized it a fabricated, and why it was
categorized as such.
Sometimes dishonest people were listed in a chain of narrators and it
invalidated the hadith.
Also, any of
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I'm wonder if other Bahais would agree or disagree with that way of
putting things.
I certainly wouldn't put it that way. Baha'is tend to see the Burning
Bush, the Dove, the Archangel Gabriel and the Heavenly Maiden (huri)
all as symbols of the Holy Spirit which
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Sometimes dishonest people were listed in a chain of narrators and it
invalidated the hadith.
That's the usual means for determining a hadith is false. Muslims
believe that a hadith is only as strong as its weakest link in the
isnad or chain of transmission.
Also,
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Shaykhi was true in it's own day,
but became false when the Bab appeared. Christianity was true in it's day,
but became false when Muhammad appeared. Judaism was true in it's day, but
became false when Jesus Christ appeared.
Nonsense. The religion itself doesn't
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Sometimes dishonest people were listed in a chain of narrators and it
invalidated the hadith.
That's the usual means for determining a hadith is false. Muslims
believe that a hadith is only as strong as its weakest link in the
isnad or chain of transmission.
Also,
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Does the Baha'i faith have a Manifestationology like the Christology of
Christians?
Dear Stephen,
The closest thing we have to do is the description of the
Manifestation's station as given by Shoghi Effendi in the World Order
of Baha'u'llah. Also, the Iqan would be
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. Alternatively we could see it has the Dpivine Nature of
the Manifestation communicating with His human nature.
I really think the religion does that. I think this is so because God changes
things over time because we are changing. I cannot put on my 6th grade
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Does the Baha'i faith have a Manifestationology like the Christology of
Christians?
Dear Stephen,
The closest thing we have to do is the description of the
Manifestation's station as given by Shoghi Effendi in the World Order
of
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Alternatively we could see it as the Divine Nature of
the Manifestation communicating with His human nature.
Dear Susan, reading this over again, I think I disagree with this personally.
I think their human nature IS divine, rather than their human nature
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Dear Susan, reading this over again, I think I disagree with
this personally. I think their human nature IS divine, rather than their
human nature communicates with their Divine.
My statements regarding the distinction between the human and divine
nature of the
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I'm not sure about superstition but I would say that since some of the
topics have been rehashed over and over again, conversation isn't
about sharing new information or communicating much of the time.
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 8:03 AM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote:
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Similar
statements have been made by Imam Ali.
I think this is a very important statement by Bahaullah. Ali is not a
Manifestation, yet He is said to be one with them.
This to me disqualifies your explanation that all religions are equally true.
In one breath you
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Susan,
To me, the oneness of religion means that all religions foretold the coming of
Baha'u'llah.
Through all revealed religions, one can come to know about Baha'u'llah.
God is an unknowable.
__
You are
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I'm not sure about superstition but I would say that since some of the
topics have been rehashed over and over again
When I say superstition, I mean that we have constructed an image of God
in our mind, and have believed that that image is really God, when it is only
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is now regarded as a heretic and blasphemer or apostate or something like
that by the hard line clerics for putting forth similar thoughts about the
Quran and the Prophet Muhammad now
Iskandar,
How do you mean? How does he characterize the Quran and Muhammad?
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Basically, he questions the traditional Muslim understanding of wahy
Revelation and puts forward his reading that the Quran is a product of wahy
as expressed and articulated through the mind of the Prophet and His times,
culture, language, etc. In other words, the
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Isn't this actually what happened? People don't really believe in Ghosts, do
they?
From: iskandar@gmail.com iskandar@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Mon, June 28, 2010 4:00:29 PM
Subject: Re:
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Well, what shall I say?
Sent on the Sprint® Now Network from my BlackBerry®
-Original Message-
From: haj...@yahoo.com haj...@yahoo.com
Sender: bounce-511568-2080...@list.jccc.eduDate: Mon, 28 Jun 2010 13:09:48
To: Baha'i Studiesbahai-st@list.jccc.edu
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So, that means the Ayatollahs of Iran do believe that Muhammad was just a
divine mailman?
That's the image people get when they hear the word messenger.
His teaching conflicted with the hardline conservative party line.
Who could blame them as he threatened the
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On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:53 AM, iskandar@gmail.com wrote:
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As I said, I was trying to wrap up and I am reluctant to make detailed
comments about the following. It looks like Matt Haase understood at least
some of the points I
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statements have been made by Imam Ali.
I think this is a very important statement by Bahaullah. Ali is not a
Manifestation, yet He is said to be one with them.
One of the things that is a bit confusing about the Iqan is the that
the term Manifestation is used in
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Basically, he questions the traditional Muslim understanding of wahy
Revelation and puts forward his reading that the Quran is a product of
wahy as expressed and articulated through the mind of the Prophet and His
times, culture, language, etc. In other words, the
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Who could blame them as he threatened the whole objectivity of revelation?
Dear Stephen,
If one understands that the Manifestation Himself is the Word of God
in the *primary* sense (a la John's Gospel) then I don't think the
objectivity of revelation is threatened at
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the Manifestation Himself is the Word of God
in the *primary* sense (a la John's Gospel)
Susan,
I don't think that's what's being argued. At least that is not what I have in
mind.
I think it is stating that the Word of God is only the words of Muhammad,
nothing
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I think it is stating that the Word of God is only the words of Muhammad,
nothing more. Not that the Manifestation IS the Word. That which is written
down in the Qur'an is Muhammad's word.
Look at Baha'u'llah's writings. It is full of His Own Words.
Remember,
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Some hadith Baha'u'llah wrote commentaries on like He who knows his self
knows his lord.
It's listed as #93 in the 100 fabricated hadith. Also, several fabricated
haidith while not being authentic,
are said to have authentic meanings.
I probably should have looked
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I think it is stating that the Word of God is only the words of Muhammad,
nothing more. Not that the Manifestation IS the Word. That which is
written down in the Qur'an is Muhammad's word.
Look at Baha'u'llah's writings. It is full of His Own Words.
John's
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As I understand, from a literary perspective, these are real mistakes.
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John's Gospel, the Qur'an both assert that Jesus is the Word of God.
The Long Obligatory Prayer describes the Manifestation as He through
whom the words B and E (lit. Kaf and Nun) have been joined and knit
together.What is this other than the Creative Word by which God
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Are you aware that the Bab and Baha'u'llah made Arabic grammar mistakes?
How can you possibly believe someone who's is supposed to be the Appearance
of the One Who Sent the Qur'an to Muhammad, but can't figure out Arabic
grammar?
The Bab Himself explained this.
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Vernacular language and literary language are two differnet things. If you are
too literary common people won't understand you. They were trying to write so
that they could be understood and not so they could get an imaginary A+ for
perfectly pure standard
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Dear all,
Just please let's all remember that they will never be one proof that
one prophet, Abraham, Jesus, Mohamad, the Bab or every other, has given
us one single word coming from God.
Based on this, theology looks like a so little human discussion...
Let's believe
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Of course. The Manifestation creates a new religion. That's all. From a
scientific perspective, its not more mysterious than that.
And you know this how?
That's not how Abdu'l-Baha explains it:
The second sort of preexistence is the preexistence of time, and
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My honest observation is that you are not genuine in your messages.
Not genuine, huh? And who put you in the position to judge our sincerity?
I think you are going around and around in circles of superstition.
You can think what you like but such insults aren't
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An incidentally for someone who was insisting that we shouldn't argue
you sure know how to start a fight!
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 7:03 AM, hajmog haj...@yahoo.com wrote:
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Hi Susan and Gilberto,
My honest observation is that you are not
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When I say superstition, I mean that we have constructed an image of God
in our mind, and have believed that that image is really God, when it is
only
our own imagination.
It is all in your imagination that I've done that.
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I cannot put on my 6th
grade clothes now because they don't fit me anymore.
That doesn't make your clothes untrue.
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How is this nonsense? Religion is a manmade community. All Christians
should have accepted Muhammad and all Jews Jesus. The true Jewish community
is Christianity, the true Christian community is Islam, etc.
There is no essential Judaism, Christianity or Islam, but
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I only skimmed through some of them. Now, that I looked closer I do see the
author is Sunni in his praise of Abu Bakr and Umar. Also, he ommitted Uthman
from his praise despite him also being a Caliph. He's Sunni, but he doesn't
feel comfortable for some reason when
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I only skimmed through some of them. Now, that I looked closer I do see the
author is Sunni in his praise of Abu Bakr and Umar. Also, he ommitted Uthman
from his praise despite him also being a Caliph. He's Sunni, but he doesn't
feel
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If that's the case, why do Sunnis sometimes call Umar II (an Ummayad Caliph)
to be the fifth Caliph?
Umar II was probably the only Umayyad Caliph who was truly pious even
to the point of being a bit fanatical.
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According to Luxenberg, the Qur'an was not written in classical Arabic but in
a mixed Arabic-Syriac language,
Dear Stephen,
Someone who claims to be a scholar yet refuses even to identify
himself should probably not be taken seriously and I don't know any
academic
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I think there is some validity to that argument.
On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 9:19 AM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
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According to A.C. Welch, Muslim interpretation of khatim an-nabiyyin as the
last and greatest of the prophets is
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Can a seal mean God's stamp of approval rather than finality?
Can a seal mean authenticity rahter than finality?
Can a seal mean finality until the seal is broken?
Did you know the term Seal of the Prophets predate Muhammad? Montanus and
Mani both used it.
Yes to
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f urther developments of the Seal of the Prophets
Dr Iskandar Hai MD wrote:
iskandar@gmail.com
For me as a Baha'i, the idea that at some point in time (e.g., in 632) God
decided to go into permanent retirement and leave humanity to its own
devices
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So how do Sunnis view the Abbasids? They overthrew the Ummayads, but the
first Abbasid was known as the Slaughterer?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As-Saffah
He is called the blood-letter because he after overthrowing the
Umayyads he invited them to a banquet where
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According to Luxenberg, the Qur'an was not written in classical Arabic but in
a mixed Arabic-Syriac language,
Dear Stephen,
Someone who claims to be a scholar yet refuses even to identify
himself should probably not be taken seriously and I don't know any
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam
Some Muslims list Zoroaster, Buddha, Socrates, Laozi, Mani, Confucius, Krishna,
and Rama as prophets. This obviously means that Seal of the Prophets can't mean
last prophet for them. As Mani wasn't the last prophet.
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I don't think most Muslims regard Mani as a legitimate prophet. In
fact, historically Manicheans (zandiq) were offered no tolerance
whatsoever in the Islamic world and even subject to something close to
an Inquisition. But you are right he claimed the title of Seal of
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imamah_(Shi%27a_Twelver_doctrine)
That is the article with the section;
* Communicating with angels
Part of a a series on
Aqidah
Five Pillars of Islam
Shahādah · Ṣalāt
Ṣawm · Zakāh · Hajj
Sunni Islam
Seven articles of belief
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I think he is taken seriously but because of the extreme sensitivity of the
issue and the potential threats against his life, he had to use a pseudonym.
Armin said that someone found his real name, address, and identity and posted
the information on the internet.
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and then there is a mos precious find which demonstrates that in a
very very early text the U.SUUL E KAAFI SUCCESSIVE Prophets are
indicated and referenced in a very subtle but cogent and lucid manner
What is the presumed date for this text?
Don C
--
- - -
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I just wanted to suggest alternative ways to read the quote from Imam
Jaffar as-Sadiq along with some other passages:
2010/6/28 Khazeh aqu...@dsl.pipex.com:
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Sura 18:109 YUSUFALI: Say: If the ocean were ink (wherewith to write out)
the
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On Mon, Jun 28, 2010 at 7:05 PM, Stephen Gray skg_z...@yahoo.com wrote:
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prophets_of_Islam
Some Muslims list Zoroaster, Buddha, Socrates, Laozi, Mani, Confucius,
Krishna, and Rama as prophets. This obviously
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If I remember correctly, and Khazeh should correct me if I'm wrong, during
the battle of Siffin, the Umayyads resorted to a ruse (when they realized
that they would lose the war) by upholding Quran books on their spears at
which time `Ali's followers disobeyed Him and
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I think he is taken seriously but because of the extreme sensitivity of the
issue and the potential threats against his life, he had to use a pseudonym.
Dear Iskandar,
Not in academia. You can't use a pseudonym in academia and expect your
work to be quoted and used
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