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Just some stuff I picked up over time. I think it would be somewhat
problematic from a Muslim perspective to claim that Arius's teachings were
in line with Islamic beliefs, unless one believes that the Qur'an is the
created word of God as opposed to the eternal word of
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On Mon, Oct 25, 2010 at 4:25 AM, Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com wrote:
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Just some stuff I picked up over time. I think it would be somewhat
problematic from a Muslim perspective to claim that Arius's teachings were
in line with
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Just some stuff I picked up over time. I think it would be somewhat
problematic from a Muslim perspective to claim that Arius's teachings were
in line with Islamic beliefs, unless one believes that the Qur'an is the
created word of God as opposed to the eternal word
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I believe he was at the mosque saying prayers.
Umar was killed by Pirouz the Zoroastrian slave while praying at the
mosque. Uthman was bludgeoned to death while reading the Qur'an after
the assasins scaled the walls of his home.
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Umar was killed by Pirouz the Zoroastrian slave while praying at the
mosque. Uthman was bludgeoned to death while reading the Qur'an after
the assasins scaled the walls of his home.
You're right. I conflated the two. Also it seems that the letter
ordering the
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So we are back to Uthman actually being murdered, not some righteous
execution. And Muawiyya having a a right to ask for the murderers to
be prosecuted.
On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 12:07 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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Umar was
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It's not particularly interesting. When I became Muslim I was Sunni,
mostly by default but I think I also was (and in some respects still
am) critical of the idea of inherited privilege / rank / authority
that I saw in Shiism.
Now I would say I have a much more
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To be honest, this current series of conversations is more than a
little weird because there are similar concepts in the Bahai faith
like the sin-covering eye and an obvious emphasis on unity in other
areas. But obviously since the Bahai faith basically follows the
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Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Baha Concerning Arius
by Universal House of Justice
1998-03-17
M E M O R A N D U M
To: The Universal House of Justice
From: Research Department
Tablet of 'Abdu'l-Bahá Concerning Arius
In its letter of 17 December 1997 to the Universal House of
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Is there a particular reason you posted this, Gilberto?
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Is there a particular reason you posted this, Gilberto?
I requested his source on Arianism. I would like to thank him for it,
as I have not come across any reference until now.
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On Sun, Oct 24, 2010 at 4:13 PM, Minhaj Khan mak8...@gmail.com wrote:
Back when I was a Sunni, I had a similar discussion with a Methodist
priest. He convinced me that Arians were closer to polytheism than any
other Christian sect, as they accepted a divine station
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I requested his source on Arianism.
Ah, I must have missed that.
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I would have to agree with Minhaj about Arius. I don't think he taught an
Islamic view of Jesus more so than he believed that Christ was like a
lesser divinity of God. On the other hand, the Baha'i teachings (from my
perspective) teach that God is the only Divine Being
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Where are you getting your information about what Arius believed?
Also, I'm not sure exactly where you are coming from since the Bahai
faith on the one hand would affirm the Quranic teaching on Jesus while
at the same time affirming that sonship and divinity of Jesus so
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Yes, I am making a distinction between the Shi'a and Baha'i view, because
they are slightly different. The Baha'i perspective has its roots in the
Shi'a view, but it departs in some important ways from it. For example, when
Quratulayn-Tahirih refused to mourn the
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Matt's comments are important. I'd agree with Matt.
I think we can all agree that having a sin-covering eye is a virtue; but, so
is speaking truth to power, so is standing up for justice and fairness, so
is protecting the rights of the down trodden, the minorities, so
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For example, when
Quratulayn-Tahirih refused to mourn the martyrdom of Hussein, she did so
under the pretense that the 12th Imam/Qa'im/Mahdi was here and alive. Thus,
it was a time for celebration rather than mourning what is past.
More specifically, it was the
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I think that's a good point. And it actually echoes Muawiyya's
reasoning. One of Muawiyya's family members was murdered and Ali, who
was the power at the time and would normally be obligated to provide
justice, refused to prosecute the murderers. Now, in hindsight
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But at the time, from
Muawiyya's perspective, it was a different story and he thought he
was standing up for justice and fairness.
I think it would be more accurate to say that he was standing up for
family honor which requires revenge. That's really not the same as
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I think that if you take the Bahai relativistic approach to morality,
what Muawaiyya sought *was* justice because he had a right to it by
the Quran. As Uthman's kin he had the the option of forgiving the
murderers but refused to give it. But even without invoking
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I think you are confused. It sounds like you are saying that after
Uthman was killed he gave an illegal order to kill his own
murderers?!?
No, I'm saying that the details of 'Uthman's assassination (as
described by Tabari) are as follows: A number of soldiers
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On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 3:59 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
It is true that the Wahhabis adhere to the Hanbali school. Whether or
not Ibn Hanbal should be blamed for that is another question. Most
Saudis insist on being called Hanbali Muslims, not
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On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 6:29 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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No. They agree that certain words were said which Shia INTERPRET one
way, and Sunnis INTERPRET another.
Why don't you share with us exactly what those words were?
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Hi,
from Shoghi Effendi-God passes by.
, first, the bigoted, the sickly, the vacillating Muhammad Sháh, page 1.
The arch villains who joined hands with the prime movers of so wicked a
conspiracy were the two grand vizirs, Hájí Mírzá Aqásí, the idolized tutor
of
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I think the point of Baha'u'llahs words are that backbiting and slander is
especially bad amongst the friends. But to paint a historical picture by
pointing out someones traits (of the parties involved) is not quite the same
thing.
I think the distinction needs to
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Um.. because in spite of the direction the discussion has taken I
actually didn't want to rehash the entire history of Sunni-Shia
polemics on a Bahai list.
I just think that people should be able to read the words for
themselves and be able to draw their own
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I see I made a number of mistakes here:
Yes, I would agree with that. I had in mind specifically the movement
coming from Ibn Abdu'l-Wahhab. which has its genesis in Egypt
Obviously Ibn Abdu'l-Wahhab is from Arabia not Egypt. I was thinking
ahead to the Salafi
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I think Sunni and Shi'a narratives both have merit, but fall short in
totality. For example, Shi'as are great at keeping a memory alive and of
inspiring people with sacred history. But from a historical perspective, the
world just doesn't work in good guys/bad guys with
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I would also add that there is a difference in terms of authority
which is part of the picture as well. If Bahaullah wants to describe
someone that is one thing. If an ordinary Bahai wants to talk about
their neighbor, that's something else. Or on the Islamic side, Abu
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On Fri, Oct 22, 2010 at 2:03 PM, Matt Haase matthewhaa...@gmail.com wrote:
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I think Sunni and Shi'a narratives both have merit, but fall short in
totality.
Are you making some distinction between the Shia view and the Bahai view?
For
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I might want to clarify that, even though the Babi and Baha'i Faiths were
born in a Shi`ah culture, yet Babi-Baha'i theology in some important areas
rejects and condemns certain Shi`ah positions. For instance, Baha'u'llah
rejects the Shi`ah notion of considering the
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On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 9:33 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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Susan said that Muawiyyah wasn't a pious man and questioned the
sincerity of his conversion and therefore his status as a companion.
Those certainly aren't Sunni
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I would point out that in the history of Sunni-Shia polemics it is
actually very common for Shias to argue from Sunni sources.
Rhetorically it can come off as a neat trick
Dear Gilberto,
Is it a 'trick' or merely reflective of the fact that the evidence is
on their
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I think this conversation is interesting. I'm not Sunni or Shi'a, but I
think both narratives have merit.
On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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I would point out that in the history of Sunni-Shia polemics
...@gmail.com
To: Baha'i Studies bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Sent: Thu, October 21, 2010 1:34:32 PM
Subject: Re: What went Terribly Wrong? (was: Conspiracy Thoeries and Recent New
Events Align alot)
The Baha'i Studies ListservI think this conversation is interesting. I'm not
Sunni or Shi'a, but I think both
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On Thu, Oct 21, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
G:
For
example Ghadeer Khum is in the Sunni hadith collections too and Sunnis
largely agree with Shias on the outward facts, but with a very
different understanding. In terms of the current
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No. They agree that certain words were said which Shia INTERPRET one
way, and Sunnis INTERPRET another.
Why don't you share with us exactly what those words were?
The comment is not really true or illuminating.
It is true that the Wahhabis adhere to the Hanbali
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Susan said that Muawiyyah wasn't a pious man and questioned the
sincerity of his conversion and therefore his status as a companion.
Those certainly aren't Sunni positions.
Well, here is what a Sunni ahadith states:
The Messenger of Allah said: Whoever curses Ali,
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On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 1:07 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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I've read sunni accounts which would
agree that Uthman engaged in a certain amount of nepotism but he was a
Companion so Sunnis aren't going to want to slander him.
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@Susan: With reference to at-Tabari, you are talking about Muhammad
ibn Jarir al-Tabari, the founder of the now-extinct Jariri school of
jurisprudence within Sunni Islam, correct?
@Gilberto: The vast majority of Sunni Muslims, except the followers of
Abdul Wahaab, have
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And I agreed that Sunni accounts also mention nepotism. But still,
Sunnis aren't going to want to libel or back-bite a Companion either.
You can't libel someone with the truth and nor can you back-bite a
dead person. But I realize that Sunnis consider Uthman one of
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On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
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And I agreed that Sunni accounts also mention nepotism. But still,
Sunnis aren't going to want to libel or back-bite a Companion either.
You can't libel someone with
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I'm not really interested in arguing the point or trying to convince
you. I'm just trying to convey the/a Sunni view. The Shia narrative
tends to totally demonize certain characters who were Muslim. The
Sunni view typically tries to tell the same story in less stark
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On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 9:40 AM, Susan Maneck sman...@gmail.com wrote:
Is that the reason you suggest that all the worst Companions are
better than everyone else, because otherwise it would call the Qur'an
into question? Sorry, but needing something to be true,
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That depends on the definition. In any case, playing word games is
really beside the point. In the Bahai faith (invoking the concept of
the sin-covering eye) and in Islam, finding fault with people in
different ways is highly discouraged
If this were to apply to
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The point is that from the standpoint of Baha'is something
went terribly wrong in Islamic history.
I am ignorant about Islamic history. Could you tell me what went
terribly wrong? And what's so bad about the Umayyads?
Tim
- Original Message
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I am ignorant about Islamic history. Could you tell me what went
terribly wrong? And what's so bad about the Umayyads?
Dear Tim,
It's a long story.
The Umayyads was the clan to which Abu Sufyan, Muhammad's major
opponent in Mecca belonged. When Muhammad
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It should probably be said that even though Susan's description is
definitely coming from a Shia/Bahai perspective, the Sunni view isn't
simply diametrically opposed. I've read sunni accounts which would
agree that Uthman engaged in a certain amount of nepotism but he
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I've read sunni accounts which would
agree that Uthman engaged in a certain amount of nepotism but he was a
Companion so Sunnis aren't going to want to slander him.
It is slander only if what I said was false, but what I described in
regards to 'Uthman is largely
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