> gMoney wrote:
> Not sure what his "grand theory" is, but GG's ideas seem to be much more
> geared toward personal responsibility, which would be precipitated on a
> general belief in the industriousness of the human person, not stupidity or
> lack of desire.
>
Thanks, exactly. I'm saying that r
::shrug:: I don't see how, but perhaps there is something in the detail of
these programs that I am not familiar with and therefore am missing. If so, I
do not see any viable solutions proposed here.
Dana
>On 2/1/06, dana tierney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> As long as you see other people as
On 2/1/06, dana tierney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> As long as you see other people as stupid and needing to be led
> you will not be increasing anyone's freedoms by this or any other grand
> theory.
Ironically, I think that welfare and other entitlement systems in
general treat people like they
I don't think this is a fruitful discussion. Theory X has been largely
discredited, but is still rampant here and I am hereby consigning the views
expressed here to the category of "not my problem." I think you are wrong, but
it it is not up to me to educate you, even supposing I did have the ti
> And I guess I am saying that deadbeat is in the eye of the beholder, and
> very often, there but for the grace of god is you, my friend.
How so? A deadbeat is someone who fails to provide for themselves or their
family, even though they have the resources and the capacity to do so.
>I believe
And I guess I am saying that deadbeat is in the eye of the beholder, and very
often, there but for the grace of god is you, my friend. I believe in Maslow's
hierarchy way more than I do some wierd theory about the minimum wage,
advocated by someone who does not use his real name or believe in an
> Dana wrote:
>I find your vision a bit hard to believe.
>
And as long as we're making clarification I should mention that I am
agreeing with Maureen and the others who oppose to giving money to
deadbeats. That's it.
I'm saying that from a policy perspective we need to come with a
better way to
I am sorry if it does. You were making remarks about large chunks of a
population however. I can't dispute them as I only know extreme southeastern
Georgia, and not very well either, but I find your vision a bit hard to believe.
> I never suggested doing away with welfare, and your assumptions
yeah, they'll find a way to say it enslaves workers or something. It did remind
me that I wanted to read up on that, though. Conventional wisdom says that
sales taxes are regressive, but it looked like these people might have thought
that through.
>Very cool. It's gaining a little momentum, b
I never suggested doing away with welfare, and your assumptions that I
am a bigot rankle quite a bit. I would suggest that you go back and
read what I actually wrote, and see if you can find any actual content
that attacks anyone other than deadbeat dads and lazy people.
On 1/30/06, dana tierney
Oh - Get a room!
On 1/30/06, Gruss Gott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Dana wrote:
> > Interesting that I can tell who this is
>
> I knew that you could tell who it was AND I could tell it was you
> because you knew.
>
> Now THAT'S interesting.
> Dana wrote:
> Interesting that I can tell who this is
I knew that you could tell who it was AND I could tell it was you
because you knew.
Now THAT'S interesting.
~|
Message: http://www.houseoffusion.com/lists.cfm/link=i:5:1951
On 1/30/06, dana tierney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> you haven't been in the conversation up to now, I don't think.
Yeah, I'm pretty played out on the whole circular arguments. Mainly I
replied cause Atlanta was mentioned. :)
> PS - saw a mention of the Fair Tax on the about econommocs site th
minimum wage as enslavement ;) I should have gone wiht my first instinct --
this thread is a waste of time, no minds have been changed, and I have linked
my name to a bunch of bigoted BS ;)Please feel free to continue to believe
whatever you like.
>> Maureen wrote:
>> We have come a long way
Interesting that I can tell who this is
>For example, Social workers could be paid by commission to help get
>their salaries up. The more people you're able to turn from wealth
>consumers to producers the higher your bonus. Further, quarterly
>reviews of policy (successes/failures) should be re
you haven't been in the conversation up to now, I don't think. FWIW I agree
with you on both counts -- and would prefer a workable private alternative if I
could imagine one -- but I don't think I do, or should, agree to the
proposition that we should do away with welfare because someone's cousi
> Cam wrote:
> which was that there are a ton of
> people out there cheating the system, no matter what the system.
That's an interesting point to the topic, which are the core types of
people that need a safety net?
I'd toss out these from my experience:
1.) The yeah-I-fecked-up type that are h
Actually, I was replying to Maureens post about providing charity to
people in Georgia, and getting fed up with the people she was helping
because they wasted anything they received - so it's an on topic
reply.
And I think you missed my point, which was that there are a ton of
people out there che
Message-
> From: Cameron Childress [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2006 2:07 AM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: CF-Comm Welfare Invitational
>
>
> Being from Atlanta, this part of the thread's got my interest... I
> grew up in suburban Atlanta,
Being from Atlanta, this part of the thread's got my interest... I
grew up in suburban Atlanta, an area on the border of the town of
Tucker and Stone Mountain.
While I was in my teens, the church my family attended did a "Caring
Tree" project every Christmas. It's your standard "every ornament h
Nah, they won't work. I can't even get them to come over and clean my
house for good wages. They just want hand-outs. I've even bought
birth control pills and condoms for them, only to have them turn up
pregnant again a few months later. Total lack of any sense of
self-worth or responsibility.
Yes, rural georgia. Although parts of the city have clusters of them too
On 1/28/06, dana tierney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I need to go. But what I was wondering was -- we are talkng someplace rural,
> yes? Not Atlanta?
>
> Dana
>
> > Nah, they won't work. I can't even get them to come over
I need to go. But what I was wondering was -- we are talkng someplace rural,
yes? Not Atlanta?
Dana
> Nah, they won't work. I can't even get them to come over and clean
> my
> house for good wages. They just want hand-outs. I've even bought
> birth control pills and condoms for them, only t
I don't think I would want my child being watched by some of the people you are
describing ;) Remember that the parent is responsible for the quality of the
child care, and if your toddler wanders into traffic while Ms Baby Phat jeans
is doing her nails, then you, my dear, are the one that gets
Agreed. But you probably don't want to get my started on my views
about drugs and other "moral" crimes.
On 1/28/06, Gruss Gott <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> BTW, I'm for that. You'll never stop drugs or prostitution so you
> might as well regulate it and tax it.
> Maureen wrote:
> When they start taxing prostitutes and crack dealers, I'll consider
> them part of the economy.
>
BTW, I'm for that. You'll never stop drugs or prostitution so you
might as well regulate it and tax it.
~|
Mess
Back home in the south I could take you to numerous households where
grandma, mom and teenaged kids all received government assistance in
some form at some time. They may not all be getting it at the same
time, but it is always their first choice of income.
When they start taxing prostitutes and
> Maureen wrote:
> The government agency in charge of handing out the welfare could
> provide child care by putting together the groups, even training some
> of the mothers in child care.
It's a breath of fresh air! +1000
> No, I'm not. I am saying that the current system is a dismal failure
>
don't know a thing about middle Georgia or your cousin, so I can't speak to the
choices available to those women. I suspect a lot of them wouldn't mind a break
from their screaming rug rats and would be glad to work to get it ;) Where is
middle Georgia anyway, LOL?
> I don't know any black wome
There WERE a lot of multigeneration welfare families. Kinda tough to get
multigenerational anymore with a five-year time limit.
I'll grant you that looking for the crack pipe is opting out of society, but if
that is what is going on then what is called for is foster care and an offer of
a trip
On 1/28/06, dana tierney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> they could huh ;) You assume that ten such women know each other. Exactly how
> flexible do you think they should be? Drunken eighbors, abusive ex-husbands,
> street people? How about all those unemployed people in the mental health
> wards?
> Dana wrote:
> ::shrug:: Sorry. I often agree with you, but on this child care issue you are
> plain wrong.
Well, I guess that explains why I find myself agreeing with just about
everything she's saying.
~|
Message: http://www.
I've met them. I met them in my neighborhood, at the family
gatherings, at the Rape Crisis center where I volunteered for many
years, in the streets of Watts where I worked for several years with a
literacy program.
Yes, there are a lot of poor people out there who are 2nd, 3rd or even
4th genera
they could huh ;) You assume that ten such women know each other. Exactly how
flexible do you think they should be? Drunken eighbors, abusive ex-husbands,
street people? How about all those unemployed people in the mental health
wards?
If you thought child care was a red herring, you did not r
I don't know any black women on welfare, but I know plenty of middle
Georgia white wimmen who hang at the trailer park or at their mama's
house with their screaming rug rats.
I have one lazy-ass cousin who hasn't spoken to me since she called
and asked me if I knew how she could get a house and ca
> Maureen wrote:
> We have come a long way from the original purpose of these programs.
I firmly agree with everything you said. I have no problem with
helping people who need a boost getting back on their feet. I was one
of those people so I understand them very well. From one of your
posts ea
you know -- I spent several years working on the wrong side of the tracks in
Washington DC, which is an inner city if there ever was one, and I don't think
I *ever* met anyone who got up in the morning and said "today, I will refuse to
participate in the economy!"
;) No offense,but what I see
You can always find child care if you are flexiable in your
arrangements, and almost all the colleges and training centers have
some form of day care. I've always felt that lack of child care is a
red herring in the welfare debate.
If nothing else, they could form groups of 10 moms, 9 of whom wor
We have come a long way from the original purpose of these programs.
They are part of what was a war on poverty. It was supposed to give
people in extreme economic distress a chance to have a better life.
It was never supposed to bread and circuses for those who refuse to
participate in the econ
I think here is the essence of what is bothering me about this thread. We seem
to be speaking, in code, about black teenagers having babies. While this does
happen, in fact most welfare recipients are white, adult divorcees who receive
benefits for less than two years. That's welfare=TANF.
I'l
and the availability of child care ;)
>kids, and is now a computer scientist with a six figure salary. Of
>course, achievement like that assumes the presence of a brain, and a
>willingness to work.
>
>On 1/26/06, Paul Ihrig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> 1. a mother who cant afford child care,
>>
Not necessary. I could tell you about a woman who found herself
divorced and alone at 24 with two pre-school children, no child
support, no marketable skills, and the inflation and sorry job market
of the mid-70s.
She got her GED, went to college on financial aid, while working full
time packing g
:)
It's late and the baby has been crying, but I'll give you that one.
On 1/27/06, Charlie Griefer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 1/27/06, Wayne Putterill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > This whole group seems to be suffering from a severe case of
> > intolerance and bias lately, it's made quite
On 1/27/06, Wayne Putterill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> This whole group seems to be suffering from a severe case of
> intolerance and bias lately, it's made quite depressing reading.
I won't put up with that sort of talk...especially not from your kind, Wayne.
(this is me trying to lighten thi
This whole group seems to be suffering from a severe case of
intolerance and bias lately, it's made quite depressing reading.
On 1/27/06, dana tierney <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> what I can't get over is that I seem to be the only person here who is
> troubled by the idea that killing a child is
what I can't get over is that I seem to be the only person here who is troubled
by the idea that killing a child is the ultimate in personal responsibility.
Mind you, every one here seems to think that the father if this child is an
upstanding citizen for not supporting his child, so maybe that
nope, I'm saying I can't be bothered. Arguments about religion bore me and are
fundamentally unresolvable. Why not just say that your beliefs require that the
government give lots of money to Haliburton? Think of the bandwidth that would
save :)
Dana
> Further I'm asking you to use your Keynes
And the question was valid, but doesn't really have any affect on your
personal viewpoint. You feel a woman should have the right to choose an
abortion regardless of the circumstances of her pregnancy.
> It does. He stated that its an act of personal responsibility to get
> an abortion, I was pr
> Dana wrote:
> I'm several years out from macroeconomics, and it would take a lot of time
> and checking
So, if I understand you, you're saying that:
1.) You don't understand the economics of your position well enough to
summarize it.
2.) However you're confident that this should be the base o
It does. He stated that its an act of personal responsibility to get
an abortion, I was providing questions about exceptions where is may
not be.
On 1/27/06, G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Then your question to Tim doesn't really matter
>
>
> >I support a woman's right to choose.
> >
> > O
Then your question to Tim doesn't really matter
>I support a woman's right to choose.
>
> On 1/27/06, G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> > Larry wrote:
>> > A question Tim, did a girl who got raped by her father and got
>> > pregnant have a choice?
>> >
>>
>> A question Larry, would you supp
the point I was making is that getting pregnant is not always a choice
nor is it always a mark of personal responsibility.
There are too many cases and exceptions one way or another.
It is the person's choice, or rather should be, but is not always.
On 1/27/06, Larry C. Lyons <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
I support a woman's right to choose.
On 1/27/06, G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Larry wrote:
> > A question Tim, did a girl who got raped by her father and got
> > pregnant have a choice?
> >
>
> A question Larry, would you support making abortion illegal in all
> situations where the sexual enc
> Larry wrote:
> A question Tim, did a girl who got raped by her father and got
> pregnant have a choice?
>
A question Larry, would you support making abortion illegal in all
situations where the sexual encounter that resulted in conception was
enterred into by choice?
~~
> Larry wrote:
> A question Tim, did a girl who got raped by her father and got
> pregnant have a choice?
>
She can have welfare. But, should she decided to keep the child, she
should have to prove she understands the system well enough to
negotiate it. And I like Tony's rules about a time limit
day, January 27, 2006 12:32 AM
> > To: CF-Community
> > Subject: Re: CF-Comm Welfare Invitational
> >
> >
> > and in your opinion abortion is the one that demonstrates
> > personal responsibility
> > Sorry, I am stuck on that one. But this whole thread has
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, January 27, 2006 12:32 AM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: CF-Comm Welfare Invitational
>
>
> and in your opinion abortion is the one that demonstrates
> personal responsibility
> Sorry, I am stuck on that one. But this whole thread
and in your opinion abortion is the one that demonstrates personal
responsibility
Sorry, I am stuck on that one. But this whole thread has so many stereotypes
that -- well, life is short and I have groceries to buy.
Dana
>Umm, there were two options there, her very real choices. - said the
Umm, there were two options there, her very real choices. - said the
agnostic libertarian.
Tim
> -Original Message-
> From: dana tierney [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 9:52 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: CF-Comm Welfare Invitat
I'm several years out from macroeconomics, and it would take a lot of time and
checking to write you a summary. There are plenty of resources out there. Try
this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keynsian
>> Dana wrote:
>> For sure not right now and probably not at all. I have zombie thread fatigue.
> Dana wrote:
> For sure not right now and probably not at all. I have zombie thread fatigue.
> I think I already said that, but maybe it was in another thread.
>
You're always implying and insinuating, but you seem to have an
inability to lay out you ideology in a few bullets.
Give it shot. Exp
For sure not right now and probably not at all. I have zombie thread fatigue.
I think I already said that, but maybe it was in another thread.
Dana
>> Dana wrote:
>> wow... abortion as personal responsibility.
>>
>
>So just this morning you were telling KG that I just wouldn't listen.
>Well I'm
> Dana wrote:
> wow... abortion as personal responsibility.
>
So just this morning you were telling KG that I just wouldn't listen.
Well I'm listening! So how about it? Are you going to cough up your
3 people and explain why they need our tax dollars?
~~
you might want to fact-check that
>When you get paid more for having the kids than you can with most jobs
>in the area, especially if you have no education and training, what do
>you expect.
>
>larry
>
>On 1/26/06, Tony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
~~~
wow... abortion as personal responsibility.
that's great
Dana
>Who should not have gotten pregnant in the first place?
>
>Who should be getting child support?
>
>Who could have had an abortion if she was unable to care for the child, or
>put the child up for adoption?
>
>Personal responsibilit
When you get paid more for having the kids than you can with most jobs
in the area, especially if you have no education and training, what do
you expect.
larry
On 1/26/06, Tony <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> its entirely to easy to become a baby factory, sittin back watchin
> springer, boyfriend se
its entirely to easy to become a baby factory, sittin back watchin
springer, boyfriend sells rock and herb and play xbox and drink 40's
i see it ALL THE FUCKING TIME, in l'il ole salisbury, yeah, li'l ole salisbury.
man there are some real big wastes of space and time and money here, i
hate to say
> Weegs wrote:
> i think the welfare plan in the USA should match the one in
> Italy. You can get it. You can get it for one year or so. You can
> get it for the kids you presently have. Anything more, or more
> kids and you are shit toasted.
>
That sounds sensible to me. People that are falli
?
>
> Who could have had an abortion if she was unable to care for the child, or
> put the child up for adoption?
>
> Personal responsibility.
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Paul Ihrig [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 1:07
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2006 1:07 PM
> To: CF-Community
> Subject: Re: CF-Comm Welfare Invitational
>
> 1. a mother who cant afford child care,
> to be able to work,
> to be able to afford child care.
>
>
~
1. a mother who cant afford child care,
to be able to work,
to be able to afford child care.
~|
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