I think that ARP straddles both Layer 2 and Layer 3. It does not completely
belong to either.
CM
-Original Message-
From: Dr Rita Puzmanova
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: 13/06/01 14:58
Subject: ARP and TCP/IP layering [7:8335]
Hi all,
Trivial yet fundamental question. I have seen ARP des
This topic has come up a few times in the past and I don't think we ever
came to a common agreement. Several people made good arguments on both
sides. I don't recall the specific argument, but I believe someone even
made a convincing argument that it was an application layer function.
Perhaps s
>Hi all,
>
>Trivial yet fundamental question. I have seen ARP described as part of
>the network (internet) layer so many times that I have started to
>believe it belongs there (although I know well that it operates "as if"
>the Layer 2 protocol - as per OSI RM). Now I have eventually come across
>
during troubleshooting? As a general
network engineer, it's never helped me none. :-) As a programmer, maybe,
but unless someone can show me how it would help, I'm happy to let it lie.
:-)
BJ
- Original Message -
From: Charles Manafa
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, June 13
information
on this topic? I have not seen it in any of the standard texts or I
overlooked.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
Howard C. Berkowitz
Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 10:55 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: ARP and TCP/IP layering
ormation Technology, he worked on
some of these specifications.
>
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of
>Howard C. Berkowitz
>Sent: Wednesday, June 13, 2001 10:55 AM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: ARP and TCP/IP la
Address Resolution Protocol - It's definitely a network layer protocol that
interfaces with the data-link layer protocol.
We know it's not just a Layer 2 protocol, because there's a higher level
(Layer 3) address associated with it.
As far as "the truth" is concerned, I wouldn't venture to provi
ARP was developed without reference to the OSI reference model. That's the
easiest way to think about it. ;-) Cisco books that coerce protocols into
the strict 7 layers are simplifying the truth. In many cases a protocol
doesn't fit into a linear stack. ARP lies in a control plane. Its
functio
Ok, I thought. "I'll try to find the paper at the ISO web site". I did. They
want 123.90 CHF ($68.99) for a 31 page paper. The heck with the certs I want
to work with these guys :-)
--
James Haynes
Network Architect
Cendant IT
A+,MCSE,CCNA,CCDA,CCNP,CCDP
""Priscilla Oppenheimer"" wrote in mess
I'm simultaneously amused and confused by some of the debates on the
list, especially with respect to protocol architecture. True, in many
cases, it is important to know what Cisco is looking for in tests,
which is not necessarily the same as what the protocol designers had
in mind. But a lo
"Howard C. Berkowitz" wrote:
>
> OSI, in its _basic_ 7 layer form, is a useful tool for
> conceptualizing and educating. That's it. Certain concepts, like the
> generic relationship between layers, protocol encapsulation, etc.,
> are generally useful. But I assure you, from personal experience i
>"Howard C. Berkowitz" wrote:
>>
>> OSI, in its _basic_ 7 layer form, is a useful tool for
>> conceptualizing and educating. That's it. Certain concepts, like the
>> generic relationship between layers, protocol encapsulation, etc.,
>> are generally useful. But I assure you, from personal exp
And really ironically, the one IP example that fits well into the 7-layer
model is the one that many Cisco documents and books get wrong. That's the
SUN Open Network Computing (ONC) protocols:
Application Network File System (NFS)
Prentation External Data Representation (XDR)
Session
At 11:55 AM 6/13/01, Howard C. Berkowitz wrote:
>Lots of books are indeed wrong, when judged against the ISO Internal
>Organization of the Network Layer document. Stripping to a minimum
>of OSI speak, what we think of the network layer actually has three
>sublayers, one of which arguably extends
>At 11:55 AM 6/13/01, Howard C. Berkowitz wrote:
>
>>Lots of books are indeed wrong, when judged against the ISO Internal
>>Organization of the Network Layer document. Stripping to a minimum
>>of OSI speak, what we think of the network layer actually has three
>>sublayers, one of which arguably e
Thank you all for valid perspectives. Yet my original question (I had on
mind but perhaps not clearly worded) is still unanswered. I will
rephrase it:
Does ARP operates at network interface layer or internet layer of TCP/IP
protocol stack?
Just forget anything else (in particular OSI concepts) -
At 03:42 PM 6/14/01, Dr Rita Puzmanova wrote:
>Thank you all for valid perspectives. Yet my original question (I had on
>mind but perhaps not clearly worded) is still unanswered. I will
>rephrase it:
>
>Does ARP operates at network interface layer or internet layer of TCP/IP
>protocol stack?
Wher
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: ARP and TCP/IP layering [7:8335]
Thank you all for valid perspectives. Yet my original question (I had on
mind but perhaps not clearly worded) is still unanswered. I will
rephrase it:
Does ARP operates at network interface layer or internet layer of TCP/IP
prot
And a more detailed reading of Comer found these statements:
Protocols like ARP belong in the network interface layer.
Application programs as well as all protocol software from the Internet
layer upward use only IP addresses. The network interface layer handles
physical addresses.
Comer, for
Isn't arp a layer 2 protocol? I realize the goal of ARP is to find a MAC
for a given layer 3 address, but the broadcast is done on layer 2, and the
remote station responds with layer 2 the layer 3 information in the ARP
request and response is just encapsulated data at that point.. which
At 06:52 PM 6/14/01, Michael L. Williams wrote:
>Isn't arp a layer 2 protocol? I realize the goal of ARP is to find a MAC
>for a given layer 3 address, but the broadcast is done on layer 2, and the
>remote station responds with layer 2
That's a good way of thinking about it that I don't thin
The topic that will never die... :-)
Priscilla's frame oriented definition certainly is operationally
useful, but doesn't quite fit within the formal OSI architecture.
Mike's point is true with respect to formal protocol, but not to
service definition in very formal OSIism. (Incidentally, I d
On Fri, 15 Jun 2001, Howard C. Berkowitz wrote:
> I will never forget the day when, while shaving, I suddenly realized I
> completely understood the abstract definition of the Presentation
> Service, and almost cut my throat.
I would consider cutting my throat too, if that should ever happen to
"Howard C. Berkowitz" wrote:
>
> The topic that will never die... :-)
Right because I am getting more and more confused by the thread I
(inadvertently) started ;-( The more I wanted to get away from OSI
reference model, the closer we got.
I thought we could do without (anyway TCP/IP is older t
>"Howard C. Berkowitz" wrote:
>>
>> The topic that will never die... :-)
>
>Right because I am getting more and more confused by the thread I
>(inadvertently) started ;-( The more I wanted to get away from OSI
>reference model, the closer we got.
>
>I thought we could do without (anyway TCP/IP is
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of
Howard C. Berkowitz
Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 6:28 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:Re: ARP and TCP/IP layering [7:8335]
I'm simultaneously amused and confused by some of the debat
: Friday, June 15, 2001 12:14 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject:RE: ARP and TCP/IP layering [7:8335]
Comments inline
>>> "Chuck Larrieu" 6/15/01 1:04:26 PM >>>
>At 11:50 AM 6/13/01, John Neiberger wrote:
>>This topic has
Comments inline
>>> "Chuck Larrieu" 6/15/01 1:04:26 PM >>>
>At 11:50 AM 6/13/01, John Neiberger wrote:
>>This topic has come up a few times in the past and I don't think we
ever
>>came to a common agreement. Several people made good arguments on
both
>>sides. I don't recall the specific ar
>-Original Message-
>From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of
>Howard C. Berkowitz
>Sent: Thursday, June 14, 2001 6:28 AM
>To:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: ARP and TCP/IP layering [7:8335]
>
>
>
>Indeed, some of the
Subject: RE: ARP and TCP/IP layering [7:8335]
Comments inline
>>> "Chuck Larrieu" 6/15/01 1:04:26 PM >>>
>At 11:50 AM 6/13/01, John Neiberger wrote:
>>This topic has come up a few times in the past and I don't think we
ever
>>came to
"Howard C. Berkowitz" wrote:
>
> The ISO document title is "Internal Organization of the Network
> Layer." I don't have my copy near to hand, so can't give you the
> number. As with other ISO documents, it is not available free, but
> can be downloaded.
Where do you download the documents fro
>"Howard C. Berkowitz" wrote:
>>
>> The ISO document title is "Internal Organization of the Network
>> Layer." I don't have my copy near to hand, so can't give you the
>> number. As with other ISO documents, it is not available free, but
>> can be downloaded.
>
>Where do you download the doc
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