Considering how monte carlo actually works, I think it's plausible
to argue that it works best where the distance to endgame is small.
For a 19x19 board, the playing speed may be only a factor of 4 worse,
but the effective learning speed for an opening position might be
exponentially worse. In o
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Hi Steve,
So this doesn't get too lengthy I'll remove the stuff I'm not responding
to.
>> I think this statement is more or less true. Didn't you see the
>> scalability data for 19x19? In fact didn't you help me produce it?
>
> we tested some ve
> I think that is UCT and it's happening now. UCT is the most promising
> for 19x19 progress that we have now.
yes, it's new, and it's doing quite well. my hunch is simply that a few
thousand more ELO are not going to happen in hardware with this method.
> I think this statement is more or les
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Hi Steve,
I don't fully understand what you are saying here.
steve uurtamo wrote:
> I think that there's an apples/oranges thing going on here.
>
>> My hunch, however, is that they won't play a
>> significant role in creating a machine that can top
Reinforcment Learning: A Survey is available on citeseer.
/Dan Andersson
Ursprungligt meddelande
Från: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Datum: 2007-okt-12 02:18
Till: "computer-go"
Ärende: [computer-go] Combining online and offline knowledge in UCT
Does anyone have a good reference for reading the nota
From: Christopher Rosin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Christopher, Thanks for your explanation of greenpeep!
> - Biasing playouts by patterns is much better than unbiased playouts
> - Playouts using self-play patterns together with MoGo-style move
> preferences (favor defensive moves and captures, as wel
Hi greenpeep aka chris,
My program GGMC Go ver. 2, rated around 2000 ELO now, runs abut 25k
playouts/s on 4-core box and do 360k playouts/move at most on cgos
(and last KGS tournament as well). It's based on MoGo's first
report, though its framework is different.
# I'll add some features but h
Does anyone have a good reference for reading the notation in the
Gelley/Shriver paper "Combining online and offline knowledge in UCT"?
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http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
I think that there's an apples/oranges thing going on here.
> My hunch, however, is that they won't play a
> significant role in creating a machine that can top the best human
> players in the 19-by-19 game.
i agree with this statement.
> And MC programs are more scalable that traditional progra
On Thu, 2007-10-11 at 18:37 -0400, Chris Fant wrote:
> Someone already did: Stone eater.
>
> On 10/11/07, terry mcintyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Erik,
> >
> > It would be great to see Steenvreter on the 9x9 cgos server. BTW, can you
> > translate "Steenvreter" for us English speakers?
On 10/11/07, terry mcintyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It would be great to see Steenvreter on the 9x9 cgos server.
It is still on my to do list...
> BTW, can you translate "Steenvreter" for us English speakers? Thanks!
It is a combination of the Dutch words "Steen" and "vreter". (Dutch
has t
> One thing computer chess has had for a very long time and is practically
> absent in Go is a rating list. It's always been possible to identify
> who the best programs and where they stand relative to any other. There
> are agencies that play hundreds of thousands of games constantly to
> tra
Someone already did: Stone eater.
On 10/11/07, terry mcintyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Erik,
>
> It would be great to see Steenvreter on the 9x9 cgos server. BTW, can you
> translate "Steenvreter" for us English speakers? Thanks!
>
> From: Erik van der Werf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> Yes I'm h
Erik,
It would be great to see Steenvreter on the 9x9 cgos server. BTW, can you
translate "Steenvreter" for us English speakers? Thanks!
From: Erik van der Werf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Yes I'm here :-) Sorry to have to disappoint you though, I have not
yet found enough time to work on 19x19. For n
On 10/11/07, Ian Osgood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I thought Steenvreter only played 9x9 Go. The 19x19 ICGA tournament
> winners were MoGo, CrazyStone, and GnuGo in that order.
How did I mess that up? Thanks for the correction.
___
computer-go mailing
Then they are stronger than many face against people. I think Many Faces
would be around 4k to 6k.
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Eric Boesch
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 1:50 PM
> To: computer-go
> Subject: Re: [computer-go]
Yes I'm here :-) Sorry to have to disappoint you though, I have not
yet found enough time to work on 19x19. For now the throne rightfully
belongs to Mogo.
Erik
On 10/11/07, Chris Fant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Can we also count on Steenvreter for this 19x19 smack-down? You out
> there, Erik
On Oct 11, 2007, at 1:49 PM, Eric Boesch wrote:
On 10/11/07, David Fotland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
But the only way to settle this is to do some experiments. I could
certainly be wrong. If we have a mogo-many faces match on 19x19
cgos, and
we also have them play for ratings against peop
Hi - yes, that is me, and greenpeep is my program. About 10 years ago
I worked on coevolution applied to Go, but greenpeep is an
entirely new program based on UCT. I think the greenpeep is mostly
similar to what some other people are doing with UCT, and I'm using
it to test ideas. greenpeep uses
Can we also count on Steenvreter for this 19x19 smack-down? You out
there, Erik?
On 10/11/07, Eric Boesch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 10/11/07, David Fotland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > But the only way to settle this is to do some experiments. I could
> > certainly be wrong. If we have
On 10/11/07, David Fotland <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But the only way to settle this is to do some experiments. I could
> certainly be wrong. If we have a mogo-many faces match on 19x19 cgos, and
> we also have them play for ratings against people on kgs, it would settle
> it.
Mogobot1 and mo
On Thu, 11 Oct 2007, Don Dailey wrote:
But we had a 19x19 server and it WAS NOT interesting. Nobody seemed
willing to play on it.
Maybe that has changed now.
It was not interesting because there was only one competitive
program on it (MoGo). Most people's programs are too weak
at 19x19, but ha
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In the computer chess ratings they don't necessarily use identical
machines, the idea is to simply publish each player as a
software/hardware combo.You will see for instance that some programs
were tested on a variety of hardware.
Which in itself
I'd say that the CGOS server has been an invaluable spur to development, since
it does allow fairly easy testing against the competition.
What Don seems to be proposing is a way of standardizing the hardware - all
programs run on the same platform.
It seems that this would require an organizati
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David Doshay wrote:
> The problem with a "closed" system where the tournament director
> controls both of the machines is that it precludes programs like mine,
> SlugGo, that intrinsically use multiple CPUs and run on Macs rather
> than Windows or Lin
The problem with a "closed" system where the tournament director
controls both of the machines is that it precludes programs like mine,
SlugGo, that intrinsically use multiple CPUs and run on Macs rather
than Windows or Linux boxes.
Cheers,
David
On 11, Oct 2007, at 12:15 PM, Don Dailey wrote
I already have experimented with the 9x9 server with an anonymous name :)
The results have aged off the server, but I think it had a rating between
1750 and 1850. So I had working GTP code about 8 months ago. I'll give it
a try today on 9x9 to see if it still works.
> -Original Message-
Most lists are amateur, but some are funded by magazines. EHSS below
is published by Selective Search Magazine, and the CSS list is from
the German Computer Schach und Spiele magazine.
The SSDF is probably the longest running of the lists, with data
going back to the first dedicated chess
On Thu, 11 Oct 2007, Don Dailey wrote:
I appreciate the vote of confidence, but my point is that if you want
some kind of "certified" rating CGOS is not a good choice. You can run
anything on CGOS and claim anything. You could even substitute a
strong human player, if you wanted to.
Serious
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Good common sense answer. I agree that this could be settled.
I'll go ahead and help Chris Fant set up a the server which he will
administer.
Meanwhile, can you experiment with the 9x9 server just to see if you can
get it working on CGOS?You ca
It's because strong players play strong moves, and the program has knowledge
about the strong moves. When Mogo plays an unconventional move, Many Faces
has less knowledge, and is more likely to do something really stupid.
People are more able to respond well to odd moves.
9x9 is a different cas
Yeah, let's get it up tonight (in three hours). I can't give you an
account, but I can administer it.
On 10/11/07, Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
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>
>
>
> Olivier Teytaud wrote:
> >> I'd connect Crazy Stone to CGOS if Many Faces is there.
>
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I appreciate the vote of confidence, but my point is that if you want
some kind of "certified" rating CGOS is not a good choice. You can run
anything on CGOS and claim anything. You could even substitute a
strong human player, if you wanted to.
So
On Oct 11, 2007, at 10:44 AM, terry mcintyre wrote:
- Original Message
From: Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
My point is that this probably won't happen in computer Go but it
happened long ago in computer chess.
- - Don
Can you point us to info about comparable agency for computer
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Olivier Teytaud wrote:
>> I'd connect Crazy Stone to CGOS if Many Faces is there.
>
> Mogo will be there also; a 19x19 Cgos would be very interesting
> in my humble opinion.
But we had a 19x19 server and it WAS NOT interesting. Nobody seemed
will
On Thu, 11 Oct 2007, Don Dailey wrote:
Right now we know that Mogo dominates in 9x9. Without CGOS this would
be speculation based on who won the last tournament. But CGOS is not
the right way although it's a useful tool.There needs to be some
kind of testing agency that is fair and unbias
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I thought Monte Carlo plays and thinks MORE like human players. That
might make them easier to beat, I don't know. Playing "like" a human
doesn't imply they are harder to beat. I have heard people complain
that they couldn't beat the early ches
I'd connect Crazy Stone to CGOS if Many Faces is there.
Mogo will be there also; a 19x19 Cgos would be very interesting
in my humble opinion. The only drawback of Cgos for me is that
we have no idea (at least, I have no idea) of the equivalence
with human standards (kgs rankings are much easier
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All I need is a linux machine with a good internet connections and we
can set up this match.
We won't be proving anything because obviously Mogo will be better if
you choose the right hardware (since MFGO that David will run is fixed.)
But at least
I would not agree with this statement. I think it is likely that the
current Monte Carlo programs can get good results agaisnt traditional
programs, but I don't think they are as strong against people. Certainly
they don't play in a human style. One of the resons they do well against
knowledge
At least for Many Faces 11, if you run it at the top level, it will play the
same no matter what hardware you use since the search parameters are fixed.
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Dailey
> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 10
If we do this, I'll connect Many Faces 11, and the experimental version.
MFGO 11 is mainly a local searcher. It uses knowledge to select about 20
moves to try, and does a 1 ply search with quiescence. The quiescence
search includes moves from a joseki database, and a small move tree from a
patter
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I don't know who funds these but I know they are commonly accepted
standards.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Launchpad/2640/ssdf/ssdf.htm
http://computerchess.org.uk/ccrl/4040/
http://www.elhchess.demon.co.uk/ehss.htm
- - Don
t
Don Dailey wrote:
I believe Many Faces is probably stronger than Mogo but I don't know
that this has been proven.
Hi Don,
I'd bet on Mogo. In case nobody noticed, Crazy Stone won a match against
KCC Igo this summer, with 15 wins and 4 losses. The match was organized
by Hiroshi Yamashita. Th
- Original Message
From: Don Dailey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
My point is that this probably won't happen in computer Go but it
happened long ago in computer chess.
- - Don
Can you point us to info about comparable agency for computer chess? Who funds
such an agency?
Thanks!
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David Fotland wrote:
> I agree. Computer go needs someone who will play large tournaments are
> publish results. I'm also curious how Many Faces would do against Mogo on
> 19x19 in a long match. Mogo is much better at endgames, and is much
> greedier
I agree. Computer go needs someone who will play large tournaments are
publish results. I'm also curious how Many Faces would do against Mogo on
19x19 in a long match. Mogo is much better at endgames, and is much
greedier, but Many Faces is much stronger tactically. Certainly if there
were rati
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Several points:
Null move is usually applied to a beta cutoff - but of course this is
mostly semantics. In the literature if you can "pass" (play the null
move) and still get a beta cutoff then you are in a fruitless line of
play because your opponen
On 10/9/07, Andrés Domínguez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 2007/10/9, Eric Boesch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> > Naive null move is unhelpful because throughout much of a go game,
> > almost every move is better than passing,
>
> I think this is not the point of null move. Null move is "if pass is good
>
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Some people on this group have claimed that computer go is decades
behind computer chess.In many ways this is not true, the
perceptions in part is based on the fact that it's much harder to write
a go program that plays very well in human terms.
This may be the same Chris Rosin:
http://www.cs.wisc.edu/areas/ai/aisem/abstracts/1995.2.summer/rosin.html
http://www-cse.ucsd.edu/users/crosin/
Other than the senseis.xmp reference, I have been able to google nothing about
greenpeep.
Terry McIntyre <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
- Original Message
There is no restriction on how many mogo bots can run. However, there
is not much of a point if everyone is just running the same bot unless
they are running at different levels and we can see exactly how they are
set up.
We have launched 4 mogos, and I explain here what is tested:
- mogo1threa
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Let's cut to the chase and the real issue:
"Monte Carlo techniques have recently had success in Go played on a
restricted 9-by-9 board. My hunch, however, is that they won't play a
significant role in creating a machine that can top the best human
pla
> > From: Nick Wedd maproom.co.uk>> > Subject: Re: [computer-go]
> > Mertin's private 9×9 & 19×19 tournament> > Date: 2007-10-09 10:28:38 GMT >
> > > > Edward de Grijs hotmail.com> writes> > > Does
> > somebody have more information?> > > > This is Stefan Mertin. He runs
> > tournaments by g
In your own paper you say:
"At the 19x19 level, Monte Carlo programs are now at the level of the
strongest traditional programs."
[https://webdisk.lclark.edu/drake/publications/GAMEON-07-drake.pdf]
And MC programs are more scalable that traditional programs. That
seems like some evidence that it
i think that it's an accurate statement.
it certainly hasn't already played such a role, and there is
no evidence that it will or can.
s.
- Original Message
From: Chris Fant <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: computer-go
Sent: Wednesday, October 10, 2007 9:15:18 PM
Subject: Re: [computer-go] Form
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