It's because strong players play strong moves, and the program has knowledge about the strong moves. When Mogo plays an unconventional move, Many Faces has less knowledge, and is more likely to do something really stupid. People are more able to respond well to odd moves.
9x9 is a different case, since mogo plays nearly perfectly once the opening is done, unless there is a rare tactic that falls outside the uct tree so the monte carlo doesn't see it. In 19x19 middle games, mogo is still relying on the monte carlo playouts rather than the uct tree, so it is more sensitive to tactics. I've watched it play 19x19, and it plays greedy for territory while leaving many weaknesses. A human will focus on the weaknesses and find some deep tactics to exploit them. Many Faces won't do this since it expects the opponent to play the "honest" move and not leave this kind of weakness. But the only way to settle this is to do some experiments. I could certainly be wrong. If we have a mogo-many faces match on 19x19 cgos, and we also have them play for ratings against people on kgs, it would settle it. David > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Don Dailey > Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 12:03 PM > To: computer-go > Subject: Re: [computer-go] Former Deep Blue Research working on Go > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- > Hash: SHA1 > > I thought Monte Carlo plays and thinks MORE like human players. That > might make them easier to beat, I don't know. Playing "like" a human > doesn't imply they are harder to beat. I have heard > people complain > that they couldn't beat the early chess programs BECAUSE they > didn't play normal moves. > > You would know more than me because you are much stronger. But you > claim they are better against the more human knowledge based programs > for the reason I stated, that they play strange moves. But > why should > that not help against humans who play more "human like?" > > You are basically saying there is a great deal of in-transitivity > between humans, monte carlo players, and knowledge based players. I > don't believe there is that much. For instance when Mogo > dominated at > 9x9 it was found that it is also quite strong against humans > (compared to other kinds of programs.) > > I know the argument that I will hear - 19x19 isn't 9x9. I believe in > Occams razor - whichever program proves to be stronger in > head to head is probably stronger against other opponents - > at least that is the simple conclusion and the burden of > proof should go to the one claiming > otherwise. I don't have any problem with you being right - > but you are > claiming something that is contrary to the simplest explanation. > > - - Don > > > > David Fotland wrote: > > I would not agree with this statement. I think it is > likely that the > > current Monte Carlo programs can get good results agaisnt > traditional > > programs, but I don't think they are as strong against people. > > Certainly they don't play in a human style. One of the > resons they > > do well against knowledge based programs is that they play strange > > moves (at 19x19). I think people are more able to exploit > the way the > > programs play. > > > > I do agree that since monte carlo is scalable, these programs will > > improve much faster than traditional programs. > > > > David > > > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of > Chris Fant > >> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 5:24 AM > >> To: computer-go > >> Subject: Re: [computer-go] Former Deep Blue Research working on Go > >> > >> > >> In your own paper you say: > >> > >> "At the 19x19 level, Monte Carlo programs are now at the > >> level of the strongest traditional programs." > >> [https://webdisk.lclark.edu/drake/publications/GAMEON-07-drake.pdf] > >> > >> > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > computer-go mailing list > > computer-go@computer-go.org > > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > > > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- > Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) > Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org > > iD8DBQFHDnNYDsOllbwnSikRAtYJAJ9AtB5QlGYZl7YIPI8nPTMW1AW0cACgg3Ly > ryaPGSKLsPRhyAu3KedBxEk= > =zXh0 > -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- > _______________________________________________ > computer-go mailing list > computer-go@computer-go.org > http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/ > _______________________________________________ computer-go mailing list computer-go@computer-go.org http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
