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Status: U
User-Agent: Microsoft-Entourage/10.0.0.1331
Date: Tue, 14 May 2002 10:21:01 +0200
Subject: Re: Bad guys vs. Good guys
From: "David G.W. Birch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Bob Hettinga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
Digital Bearer Settlement
Ken Brown wrote:
> Er, I hit "send" prematurely, and I meant to go on to say that I have
> often used 1 or 200 UKP in folding money - it is easy to do with
> universal availability of ATMs.
[...]
> Of course that doesn't apply to genuinely expensive items. I'm not sure
> I ever spend more than may
Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer wrote:
>
> >I used a VISA debit card to buy a $25,000 Ford Explorer.
>
> You mentioned this for the fourth time this month.
>
> It would be refreshing if you could name some other merchandise next time, maybe
>some non-redneck items ?
Not redneck.
At 1:12 AM +0200 on 5/14/02, Anonymous via the Cypherpunks Tonga Remailer
wrote:
> It would be refreshing if you could name some other merchandise next
>time, maybe some non-redneck items ?
Elitist.
RAH
El Paso Chapter, Bourgeois Liberation Front
--
-
R. A. Hettinga
The Inter
> > More to the point, you don't *live* unless you're selling
something,
>
> What the hell does *live* mean? There are quite a few folks on this
planet
> who 'sell' nothing. They grow their own food, they build their own
house.
> No stores, no electricity, no telephones, no air
> conditioning.
>I used a VISA debit card to buy a $25,000 Ford Explorer.
You mentioned this for the fourth time this month.
It would be refreshing if you could name some other merchandise next time, maybe some
non-redneck items ?
On Sun, 12 May 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
> Think about what you just said, there. Don't you realize that 1:M
> *always* starts 1:1? It's the same kind of
> "evil-bourgeois-businessman" hierarchical command-economy argument
> that aristocrats and peasants throw around. It's amazing how this
> k
On Sun, 12 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Huge numbers of people use modular arithmetic to secure their
> credit card numbers, their transactions with overseas banks in tax
> havens, their transfers of e-gold. They do not to understand
> modular arithmetic. They just understand that third
On Sun, 12 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> > On 12 May 2002 at 1:31, Morlock Elloi wrote:
> > This is the prime reason why digital cash didn't happen - users
> > don't really care to replace *one* middlemen (government with a
> > printing press and shitloads of armed men protecting the
> >
On Sun, 12 May 2002, David Howe wrote:
> Nope, Usually credit card transactions are free for the payer
Bullshit, they charge interest on the loans and such. You should read your
credit card bills closer. Every time you use a credit card there is a
interest charge for the 'loan' applied. If you
On Sun, 12 May 2002, Ian Grigg wrote:
> The problem with paying for anything over $100 is
> having the money with you at that time.
Most such purchases are not 'off the cuff'. They are planned.
> Most purchases are done at some random future time,
Bullshit, most folks plan their future purcha
On Sun, May 12, 2002 at 10:18:41AM -0400, Sandy Harris wrote:
| Morlock Elloi wrote:
|
| > Mental constructs like this one, complicated schemes that require knowledge of
| > modular aritmetic to understand, is why this will not happen.
| >
| > Whatever aspires to replace paper cash for purposes
On Monday, May 13, 2002, at 05:01 AM, Ken Brown wrote:
> "R. A. Hettinga" wrote:
>
>>> The reason we have ready availability of credit in the first place
>>> is because consumer debt is the most profitable business in the
>>> United States.
>>
>> I really wonder what component of this market is
On Sat, May 11, 2002 at 08:23:39PM -0400, Declan McCullagh wrote:
| On Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 09:20:32PM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
| > And most of the sheeple _like_ it. They'd rather be safe than free. For
| > every complaint I've heard about having to reassure the bank that the
| > card wasn't s
Er, I hit "send" prematurely, and I meant to go on to say that I have
often used 1 or 200 UKP in folding money - it is easy to do with
universal availability of ATMs. If anything I use more cash than I did
15 years ago because it is so simple to get hold of. And saves the
bother of waiting while t
"R. A. Hettinga" wrote:
> > The reason we have ready availability of credit in the first place
> > is because consumer debt is the most profitable business in the
> > United States.
>
> I really wonder what component of this market is actually payment
> driven. After all, to easily buy *anything
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At 2:22 PM -0700 on 5/12/02, Morlock Elloi wrote:
> that needs to be handled in synergy with medications.)
Tried that. Makes me a really grouchy bastard who'd kick your ass
soon as look at you. Oh. Wait. I just just kicked your ass anyway,
without
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At 1:19 AM -0700 on 5/12/02, Morlock Elloi wrote:
>> Oh, but it's not. Try to carry around a good merchant's daily
>> receipts in cash every day, see how much you end up paying for
>> guys in armored cars instead.
>
> Wrong analogy. I don't care abo
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At 1:31 AM -0700 on 5/12/02, Morlock Elloi wrote:
>> People don't actually have to understand it as long as they get
>> paid, of course. People who are getting paid want to get paid as
>> cheaply as possible, ceterus parabus, and so any payment
>>
--
James A. Donald:
> > Another interesting application is controlled traceability --
> > Andy wants to be able to prove he paid Betty, but he does not
> > want third parties to be able to prove he paid Betty.
Morlock Elloi wrote:
> Mental constructs like this one, complicated schemes that
>
"Jim Choate" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> gave us the benefit of the following
opinion:
> It makes no sense to talk about 'cheapness of payment' from the
recipients
> view. It costs them nothing to get paid (outside of whatever service
or
> labor was involved in the exchange). You have your cognates revers
--
> > People don't actually have to understand it as long as they
> > get paid, of course. People who are getting paid want to get
> > paid as cheaply as possible, ceterus parabus, and so any
> > payment mechanism's
On 12 May 2002 at 1:31, Morlock Elloi wrote:
> At which point do you fail t
"R. A. Hettinga" wrote:
> At 6:03 PM -0700 on 5/11/02, Eric Cordian wrote:
>
> > The reason we have ready availability of credit in the first place
> > is because consumer debt is the most profitable business in the
> > United States.
What are the margins on consumer debt? Isn't it
all securit
On Sun, 12 May 2002, Sandy Harris wrote:
> Why do you imagine that?
Paranoia and trust I'd imagine.
> Those guys don't understand the technologies behind paper money -- engraving,
> paper making, holography, ... -- or behind bank accounts and ATM machines,
> and they likely don't have credibl
Morlock Elloi wrote:
> Mental constructs like this one, complicated schemes that require knowledge of
> modular aritmetic to understand, is why this will not happen.
>
> Whatever aspires to replace paper cash for purposes where paper cash is a must
> (in real life, conferences don't count) has t
On or about Sun, 12 May 2002, somebody wrote:
> > People don't actually have to understand it as long as they get paid,
> > of course. People who are getting paid want to get paid as cheaply
> > as possible, ceterus parabus, and so any payment mechanism's
It makes no sense to talk about 'cheap
On Sun, 12 May 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
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>
> At 8:31 PM -0700 on 5/11/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>
>
> > Another interesting application is controlled traceability --
> > Andy wants to be able to prove he paid Betty, but he does not want
>
On Sun, 12 May 2002, R. A. Hettinga wrote:
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>
> At 6:55 PM -0700 on 5/11/02, Morlock Elloi wrote:
>
>
> > Also let's not forget that person A givin person B cash is
> > zero-cost untraceable transaction.
>
> Oh, but it's not.
It can be, depen
> People don't actually have to understand it as long as they get paid,
> of course. People who are getting paid want to get paid as cheaply
> as possible, ceterus parabus, and so any payment mechanism's
At which point do you fail to understand that people who *need* anon,
untraceable transactio
> > Also let's not forget that person A givin person B cash is
> > zero-cost untraceable transaction.
>
> Oh, but it's not. Try to carry around a good merchant's daily
> receipts in cash every day, see how much you end up paying for guys
> in armored cars instead.
Wrong analogy. I don't care abo
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At 6:55 PM -0700 on 5/11/02, Morlock Elloi wrote:
> Also let's not forget that person A givin person B cash is
> zero-cost untraceable transaction.
Oh, but it's not. Try to carry around a good merchant's daily
receipts in cash every day, see how mu
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At 8:47 PM -0700 on 5/11/02, Morlock Elloi wrote:
> Flipping bits in the gates or on the wire is not that - unless Joe
> the Hitman or Gordon the Dealer or Jeff the Cleaner can well
> understand it and in addition to that have implementor's balls
>
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At 6:03 PM -0700 on 5/11/02, Eric Cordian wrote:
> The reason we have ready availability of credit in the first place
> is because consumer debt is the most profitable business in the
> United States.
I really wonder what component of this market i
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At 8:31 PM -0700 on 5/11/02, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Another interesting application is controlled traceability --
> Andy wants to be able to prove he paid Betty, but he does not want
> third parties to be able to prove he paid Betty.
One of the
> Another interesting application is controlled traceability --
> Andy wants to be able to prove he paid Betty, but he does not want
> third parties to be able to prove he paid Betty.
Mental constructs like this one, complicated schemes that require knowledge of
modular aritmetic to understand,
On Sat, 11 May 2002 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Another interesting application is controlled traceability --
> Andy wants to be able to prove he paid Betty, but he does not want
> third parties to be able to prove he paid Betty.
Who is Andy going to 'prove' it to then, other than Betty? And Be
--
On 11 May 2002 at 18:55, Morlock Elloi wrote:
> Also let's not forget that person A givin person B cash is
> zero-cost untraceable transaction.
Sometimes, for example internet pornography, it is hard for Andy
to give Betty cash.
Another interesting application is controlled traceability -
> The reason we have ready availability of credit in the first place is
> because consumer debt is the most profitable business in the United
> States.
Good point.
Is there an entity with deep pockets that would find it profitable to develop
and deploy near-zero-cost (crypto blah blah) transacti
Declan opines:
> I'm a bit late here, but let me rise to the defense of profiling of this
> sort. The reason we have interest rates on credit cards which are not
> far higher than they are now and have ready availability of credit in the
> first place (not to mention credit cards being accepted n
At 08:23 PM 5/11/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>On Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 09:20:32PM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
> > And most of the sheeple _like_ it. They'd rather be safe than free. For
> > every complaint I've heard about having to reassure the bank that the
> > card wasn't stolen, I've heard a couple
On Tue, Apr 30, 2002 at 09:20:32PM -0400, Steve Furlong wrote:
> And most of the sheeple _like_ it. They'd rather be safe than free. For
> every complaint I've heard about having to reassure the bank that the
> card wasn't stolen, I've heard a couple dozen praises for the wonderful
> safe system t
Tim May wrote:
>
> On Tuesday, April 30, 2002, at 12:55 PM, Michael Motyka wrote:
<>
> But you make a good point, that the "net" to snare bad guys is snaring
> vastly more ordinary people.
And most of the sheeple _like_ it. They'd rather be safe than free. For
every complaint I've heard about
"Daniel J. Boone" wrote:
> Don't forget, they arrested the guy who bought a truckload of candy at
> Costco just before Halloween
If you're talking about the New Jersey man, he was (a) not Arabic (b)
not a terrorist and (c) a candy wholesaler. He just wanted to turn a
profit by making little
On Tuesday, April 30, 2002, at 02:29 PM, Daniel J. Boone wrote:
> From: "Michael Motyka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>> I remember that in the weeks post 9-11 Safeway or one of the other
>> grocery store chains offered to profile customers. What are they
> going
>> to do? Question everyone who buys ol
From: "Michael Motyka" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> I remember that in the weeks post 9-11 Safeway or one of the other
> grocery store chains offered to profile customers. What are they
going
> to do? Question everyone who buys olive oil, chick peas, garlic and
> sesame paste?
Don't forget, they arrest
On Tuesday, April 30, 2002, at 12:55 PM, Michael Motyka wrote:
> As a simple illustration of the inability to separate the "Good Guys"
> from the "Bad Guys" I use my experiences with my Visa card company. I
> use the damn thing to buy gas a few times a week and every so often I'll
> use it for a
As a simple illustration of the inability to separate the "Good Guys"
from the "Bad Guys" I use my experiences with my Visa card company. I
use the damn thing to buy gas a few times a week and every so often I'll
use it for a big ticket item like a PC or a Spa for example. At which
time I generall
On 29 Apr 2002 at 12:29, Tim May wrote:
> The deep error which has been with us for a long time is the assumption
> that we can create legal systems or surveillance systems which go after
> "bad guys" but not "good guys." That is, that we can separate "bad guys"
> like Mohammed Atta from "good
Note: I wrote the following item to Dave Molnar, as part of our off-line
conversation. I ended up summing-up a bunch of points I wanted to put
out to the list, and Dave has given me permission to include his
remarks. A few places refer to "you"...this is why.
On Monday, April 29, 2002, at 09:0
Note: I wrote the following item to Dave Molnar, as part of our off-line
conversation. I ended up summing-up a bunch of points I wanted to put
out to the list, and Dave has given me permission to include his
remarks. A few places refer to "you"...this is why.
On Monday, April 29, 2002, at 09:0
Note: I wrote the following item to Dave Molnar, as part of our off-line
conversation. I ended up summing-up a bunch of points I wanted to put
out to the list, and Dave has given me permission to include his
remarks. A few places refer to "you"...this is why.
On Monday, April 29, 2002, at 09:0
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