Hi, Helmut. I'm very sorry for responding to an 8-months old letter,
but I think my message is important.
Helmut Grohne:
> * mmdebstrap operates in two phases. It first unpacks and configures a
> rather minimal set of packages and then proceeds to adding packages
> passed to --include in a sec
On Sun, 11 Jun 2023, 14:32 Jeroen Dekkers, wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Jun 2023 22:14:16 +0200,
> Helmut Grohne wrote:
> > On Fri, Jun 09, 2023 at 02:42:25PM -0500, Richard Laager wrote:
> > > Later, whatever replaces /lib64 with a symlink needs to deal with
> this, but
> > > that's not significantly dif
On Fri, 09 Jun 2023 22:14:16 +0200,
Helmut Grohne wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 09, 2023 at 02:42:25PM -0500, Richard Laager wrote:
> > Because you want to support non-usr-merged systems, e.g. for derivatives?
>
> dpkg is used in any different contexts. A very simple example of a
> non-merged system would b
Hi,
On Fri, Jun 09, 2023 at 09:57:21PM +0200, HW42 wrote:
> Did you consider just having one package keep one dummy file in /bin?
> While this isn't elegant it sounds much less complex than diversions and
> tricky pre-depend loops, etc.
The dummy file is not necessary. Debian packages can ship em
Hi,
On 10.06.23 00:41, Steve McIntyre wrote:
What exactly do you mean here? You know that even a statically linked
executable needs an interpreter defined in the ELF header?
/sbin/ldconfig has no PT_INTERP segment.
If you use libdl, you need to be loaded through ld.so, and since PAM
uses li
Helmut Grohne:
> Hi Johannes,
>
> On Fri, Jun 09, 2023 at 05:47:56PM +0200, Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues
> wrote:
>> if I understand that plan correctly, the usrmerge-support package
>> setting up diversions is only necessary because you want to avoid
>> having to do the move to /usr of *all*
Hi Richard,
On Fri, Jun 09, 2023 at 02:42:25PM -0500, Richard Laager wrote:
> Is the broader context here that this is an alternative to teaching dpkg
> about aliasing? That is, we just arrange the transition correctly such that
> we get out of the aliased situation as part of upgrading to trixie?
I know I haven't thought about this as much as others, so I might be
naively missing something here.
Is the broader context here that this is an alternative to teaching dpkg
about aliasing? That is, we just arrange the transition correctly such
that we get out of the aliased situation as part
Hi Richard,
On Fri, Jun 09, 2023 at 01:07:13PM -0500, Richard Laager wrote:
> On 2023-06-09 11:26, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> > When upgrading (or
> > removing that package), dpkg will attempt to remove /bin (which in its
> > opinion is an empty directory and the last consumer is releasing it).
> > Ho
On 2023-06-09 11:26, Helmut Grohne wrote:
When upgrading (or
removing that package), dpkg will attempt to remove /bin (which in its
opinion is an empty directory and the last consumer is releasing it).
However, since dpkg has no clue about file types, it doesn't actually
know that this is a direc
Hi Johannes,
On Fri, Jun 09, 2023 at 05:47:56PM +0200, Johannes Schauer Marin Rodrigues
wrote:
> if I understand that plan correctly, the usrmerge-support package setting up
> diversions is only necessary because you want to avoid having to do the move
> to
> /usr of *all* affected packages in t
Hi,
Quoting Helmut Grohne (2023-06-09 15:22:39)
> Add a new package usrmerge-support (or whatever). It is a bit similar to
> multiarch-support: It must not have any dependencies or pre-dependencies. It
> will not have files, but maintainer scripts. Those scripts set up protective
> diversions on b
Raphaël Hertzog wrote:
>
>In the same spirit, I'd like to throw an idea... could we decide that
>base-files is the first package to be configured as part of the bootstrap
>protocol and change base-files maintainer's scripts into statically linked
>executables so that they can work even if we don't
Quoting Marco d'Itri (2023-06-09 09:41:43)
> On Jun 08, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> > And creating the required symlinks would be done by those (standalone)
> > maintainer scripts...
> >
> > I don't know if we already have some rule/invariant in the configuration
> > order of the unpacked packages,
Hi Raphaël,
On Thu, Jun 08, 2023 at 10:46:24AM +0200, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> In the same spirit, I'd like to throw an idea... could we decide that
> base-files is the first package to be configured as part of the bootstrap
> protocol and change base-files maintainer's scripts into statically lin
On Fri, 9 Jun 2023 at 10:53, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
>
> On Fri, 09 Jun 2023, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> > On Jun 08, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> >
> > > In the same spirit, I'd like to throw an idea... could we decide that
> > > base-files is the first package to be configured as part of the bootstrap
>
On Fri, 09 Jun 2023, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> On Jun 08, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
>
> > In the same spirit, I'd like to throw an idea... could we decide that
> > base-files is the first package to be configured as part of the bootstrap
> > protocol and change base-files maintainer's scripts into stati
On Jun 08, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> In the same spirit, I'd like to throw an idea... could we decide that
> base-files is the first package to be configured as part of the bootstrap
> protocol and change base-files maintainer's scripts into statically linked
> executables so that they can work ev
On Thu, 8 Jun 2023 at 09:46, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On Wed, 17 May 2023, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> > For completeness sake, there is one more entry in category 3: We can run
> > the dynamic loader from its canonical location explicitly, so we'd
> > modify maintainer scripts to start with:
Hi,
On Wed, 17 May 2023, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> For completeness sake, there is one more entry in category 3: We can run
> the dynamic loader from its canonical location explicitly, so we'd
> modify maintainer scripts to start with:
>
> #!/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 /usr/bi
On Fri, 19 May 2023 at 01:30, Simon Richter wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On 5/18/23 18:08, Luca Boccassi wrote:
>
> >> Without it, leaving them in place makes no difference for usrmerged
> >> systems, and allows derived distributions that don't need usrmerge to
> >> continue using our packages.
>
> > Not qu
Hi,
On 5/18/23 18:08, Luca Boccassi wrote:
Without it, leaving them in place makes no difference for usrmerged
systems, and allows derived distributions that don't need usrmerge to
continue using our packages.
Not quite. Having packages only ship files under /usr (and possibly
/etc) is very
On Thu, 18 May 2023 at 07:39, Simon Richter wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> On 5/18/23 02:15, Sam Hartman wrote:
>
> > Helmut> I think at this point, we have quite universal consensus
> > Helmut> about the goal of moving files to their canonical location
> > Helmut> (i.e. from / to /usr) as a so
Hi,
On 5/18/23 02:15, Sam Hartman wrote:
Helmut> I think at this point, we have quite universal consensus
Helmut> about the goal of moving files to their canonical location
Helmut> (i.e. from / to /usr) as a solution to the aliasing problems
Helmut> while we do not have cons
> "Helmut" == Helmut Grohne writes:
Helmut> Moving on to category 4 feels rather obvious, especially
Helmut> because work has been done there in debootstrap. The
Helmut> approach in debootstrap however is one that I see as a dead
Helmut> end, because it causes us to maintain t
> "Helmut" == Helmut Grohne writes:
Helmut> I think at this point, we have quite universal consensus
Helmut> about the goal of moving files to their canonical location
Helmut> (i.e. from / to /usr) as a solution to the aliasing problems
Helmut> while we do not have consensus o
On Wed, 17 May 2023 at 10:31, Helmut Grohne wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> This bootstrap aspect got me and I discussed this with a number of
> people and did some research.
>
> On Sun, May 07, 2023 at 12:51:21PM +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> > I don't think this is true? At least not in the broader sense: if
On May 17, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> Given the feedback, I am convinced that changing PT_INTERP is a stupid
> idea regardless of whether it is technically feasible. There must be a
> better way. Let's step back a bit.
Me too, I was never persuaded.
> 4. Change the bootstrap protocol. In essence, t
At 2023-05-17T11:30:36+0200, Helmut Grohne wrote:
> This bootstrap aspect got me and I discussed this with a number of
> people and did some research.
I'd like to nominate you for a Russ Allbery Award for the most useful
post to the thread. Your attention to concrete, empirical details,
arising n
Hi,
This bootstrap aspect got me and I discussed this with a number of
people and did some research.
On Sun, May 07, 2023 at 12:51:21PM +0100, Luca Boccassi wrote:
> I don't think this is true? At least not in the broader sense: if you
> compile something on Debian, it will obviously get linked a
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