* Matthew Palmer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [040808 11:10]:
From the 2004.04.05 version of the keyring, I count 927 unique people or
unknowns (there are several might be people, might be 'bots'). Wandering
through the name list, I count 122 might not be male and 4 almost
certainly female. That
On Mon, Aug 09, 2004 at 09:38:53AM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
* Matthew Palmer ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [040808 11:10]:
From the 2004.04.05 version of the keyring, I count 927 unique people or
unknowns (there are several might be people, might be 'bots'). Wandering
through the name list, I
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Matthew Palmer wrote:
As to the barriers to involvement in Debian by women, it's pretty obvious
that our gender participation ratio is decidedly different to that of the IT
industry in general, let alone the general population. I believe (although
I'd find it harder to
Yep, I think it behoves us to consider that as well. As I said in a
previous message
(http://lists.debian.org/debian-project/2004/08/msg00053.html), we should
examine what changes to the project's culture need to take place, and
whether those would be net-beneficial. It might turn out
On Sun, Aug 08, 2004 at 12:16:37AM -0400, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004, Matthew Palmer wrote:
As to the barriers to involvement in Debian by women, it's pretty obvious
that our gender participation ratio is decidedly different to that of the IT
industry in general, let alone
On Sun, 8 Aug 2004, Matthew Palmer wrote:
All in all, it is a fairly small difference statistically, I will grant you.
Earlier you had written:
Because there's a whole pile of potential contributors out there that
we're almost certainly driving away.
I did that research to determine the
On 2004-08-08 05:27:15 +0100 Peter Samuelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[MJ Ray]
Is any discussion involving women ever off-topic for -women,
actually?
Actually, yes. The list topic is more specific than just involving
women or touching on both women and Debian. The focus of the list,
and the
On Sun, Aug 08, 2004 at 09:35:25AM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
On the flip side, how about contributions from people who may
not participate if the culture turned too touchy feely and
sickeningly sweet?
Yep, I think it behoves us to consider that as well. As I said in a
previous
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 10:29:40 +1000, Matthew Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:29:40PM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
Evidence. I would like to see evidence that Debian has not been
giving equal rights to males and women over the past years.
The fact that our male /
Selon Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Does it bother you that the Project seems to be predominantly
Christian (as in most developers come from a Christian background)?
Why not? Given that the project is a global one, don't you think
Buddhists are under represented? Hindus?
Selon Matthew Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:29:40PM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
Evidence. I would like to see evidence that Debian has not been giving
equal rights to males and women over the past years.
The fact that our male / female participation ratio is much
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 05:46:57PM -0700, Jonathan Walther wrote:
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:29:40AM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:29:40PM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
Evidence. I would like to see evidence that Debian has not been giving
equal rights to males and
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 11:00:08PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 10:29:40 +1000, Matthew Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:29:40PM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
Evidence. I would like to see evidence that Debian has not been
giving equal rights
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:47:45AM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
Selon Matthew Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:29:40PM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
Evidence. I would like to see evidence that Debian has not been giving
equal rights to males and women over the past years.
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 05:50:46PM -0700, Jonathan Walther wrote:
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:41:33AM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
What is left unexamined in all these discussions is why Debian (as a
project) should be doing anything to tackle inequalities?
Because there's a whole pile of
On 2004-08-07 12:55:27 +0100 Matthew Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
How about statements from the people who have decided not to
participate
because of the culture? How many would convince you?
Is anyone planning to build data in a referenced way from these?
Otherwise, it feels like DDs
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:56:49PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 10:41:33 +1000, Matthew Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 01:47:51PM -0400, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:
Or is the contention that there is some barrier to involvement by
women (and only
On 2004-08-07 13:11:55 +0100 Matthew Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So you think that changing our culture to be less confrontational
would be
beneficial to encouraging participation by multiple groups?
Excellent.
Yes, but I'd like to see metrics for this and the data gathered. We
can all
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 22:11:55 +1000, Matthew Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:56:49PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 10:41:33 +1000, Matthew Palmer
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 01:47:51PM -0400, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:
Or is the
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 09:38:53AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
The free software world has always benefited from selection
pressure and competition between opposing solutions; when some thing
does not work as you like, you are encouraged to change it to your
liking, and if there
On 2004-08-07 18:54:18 +0100 David Nusinow [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
[...] Think of it as a gateway list that
supplements, but does not replace, lists like -mentors. If you'd read
the
FAQ[0] you'd see that this is a goal of the -women project.
Are posts which should otherwise go to other
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 09:37:40PM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
Don't assume there are stairs preventing the wheel-chaired person from
getting onto the basketball court; SHOW THEM to us. The fact that few
wheel-chaired people are into playing basketball with normal people
Talk about language
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 09:49:35PM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:47:45AM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
Selon Matthew Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:29:40PM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
Evidence. I would like to see evidence that Debian has not
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 09:55:27PM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
The burden of evidence is on you. I'd like to see your proofs.
How about statements from the people who have decided not to participate
because of the culture? How many would convince you?
Our culture is our own. Every entity
[MJ Ray]
Are posts which should otherwise go to other lists accepted on -women
purely because they involve women? It looks that way from yesterday's
list description and past activity.
Is that your real concern? You should breathe a sigh of relief when
you learn that the goals of the
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 21:11:33 +0200, Michael Banck [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 09:38:53AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
The free software world has always benefited from selection
pressure and competition between opposing solutions; when some
thing does not work as you
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 21:55:27 +1000, Matthew Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 05:50:46PM -0700, Jonathan Walther wrote:
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:41:33AM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
What is left unexamined in all these discussions is why Debian
(as a project) should be
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 04:26:01PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
Far as I can see, the mailing list has been created by a bunch of
volunteers who have an itch to scratch; and while I may not always
agree with the decisions taken, or the scoping of the effort, as
always people who do the work
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 04:32:06PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 21:55:27 +1000, Matthew Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 05:50:46PM -0700, Jonathan Walther wrote:
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:41:33AM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
What is left
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 02:42:17PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
On 2004-08-07 13:11:55 +0100 Matthew Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
So you think that changing our culture to be less confrontational
would be
beneficial to encouraging participation by multiple groups?
Excellent.
Yes, but I'd
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 09:38:53AM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 22:11:55 +1000, Matthew Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:56:49PM -0500, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 10:41:33 +1000, Matthew Palmer
[EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
On
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 01:13:31PM -0700, Jonathan Walther wrote:
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 09:49:35PM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:47:45AM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
Selon Matthew Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:29:40PM +0200, J?r?me Marant
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 01:07:25PM -0700, Jonathan Walther wrote:
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 09:37:40PM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
Don't assume there are stairs preventing the wheel-chaired person from
getting onto the basketball court; SHOW THEM to us. The fact that few
wheel-chaired people
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 01:16:52PM -0700, Jonathan Walther wrote:
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 09:55:27PM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
The burden of evidence is on you. I'd like to see your proofs.
How about statements from the people who have decided not to participate
because of the culture?
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 12:54:29PM -0400, Christopher M. Hagar wrote:
On Sat, 7 Aug 2004 21:43:06 +1000
Matthew Palmer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The culture of the project may be causing us to drive away Africans and
Hindus, yes. If so, I think we should consider it's effect and whether
On 2004-08-07 22:24:12 +0100 Peter Samuelson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[MJ Ray]
Are posts which should otherwise go to other lists accepted on -women
purely because they involve women? It looks that way from yesterday's
list description and past activity.
Is that your real concern? [...]
I
There are 3 questions in this email and a lot of explanation.
When almost all of a population is divided into two classes,
postitive discrimination in favour of one class is usually
indistinguishable from negative discrimination against the other. A
discriminatory list has been created on
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 01:09:23PM +0100, MJ Ray wrote:
There are 3 questions in this email and a lot of explanation.
When almost all of a population is divided into two classes,
postitive discrimination in favour of one class is usually
indistinguishable from negative discrimination
On 2004-08-06 13:44:51 +0100 Pascal Hakim [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[...] Not only does it discriminates
against non-icelandic speakers, it also discourages from people
posting
in english there.
As far as I am aware, anyone could learn more Icelandic if wanted. (I
only know my IRC nick's
On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, MJ Ray wrote:
I hope that people won't feed the
trolls and it results in debian doing something better to tackle
inequalities.
What is left unexamined in all these discussions is why Debian (as a
project) should be doing anything to tackle inequalities? As far as I can
MJ Ray wrote:
To me, the most obvious fix is to replace debian-women with something
like debian-equality or debian-welcome
You know, this is a pretty good idea; it's a pity that the rest of your
message paints you as such an jerk that it will be ignored.
--
see shy jo
signature.asc
Em Sex, 2004-08-06 às 11:35, MJ Ray escreveu:
against non-icelandic speakers, it also discourages from people
posting
in english there.
As far as I am aware, anyone could learn more Icelandic if wanted. (I
only know my IRC nick's meaning in Icelandic.) Even if a man wanted to
become a
Em Sex, 2004-08-06 às 14:47, Jaldhar H. Vyas escreveu:
What is left unexamined in all these discussions is why Debian (as a
project) should be doing anything to tackle inequalities?
For the same reason we work with free software.
As far as I can
tell my microwave oven was made exclusively by
On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Daniel Ruoso wrote:
Em Sex, 2004-08-06 às 14:47, Jaldhar H. Vyas escreveu:
What is left unexamined in all these discussions is why Debian (as a
project) should be doing anything to tackle inequalities?
For the same reason we work with free software.
So we won't get
Em Sex, 2004-08-06 às 15:58, Jaldhar H. Vyas escreveu:
So we won't get viruses, have to pay lots of money or have to put up with
unfixable bugs
I think you're being rather presumptious about why we work with free
software.
This affirmation explain everything...
You just don't care
On 2004-08-06 18:47:51 +0100 Jaldhar H. Vyas [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
What is left unexamined in all these discussions is why Debian (as a
project) should be doing anything to tackle inequalities?
This point was also made to me off-list. I don't have a good answer
for it. However, some
On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, Daniel Ruoso wrote:
This affirmation explain everything...
You just don't care about the problem that debian-women is trying to
deal.
Judging by where this seems to be going I probably don't--but forget that,
I'm still not clear on what exactly the problem is. You keep
On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, MJ Ray wrote:
This point was also made to me off-list. I don't have a good answer
for it. However, some active people clearly want to work on this, so
how do we make the best of it for debian? Clearly, ignore it can't
be done now it is on lists.debian.org, IMO.
Ignore
On Sex, 2004-08-06 at 09:09, MJ Ray wrote:
To me, the most obvious fix is to replace debian-women with something
like debian-equality or debian-welcome, to try to get people active
against discrimination rather than actively promoting blatent sexism.
I'm don't know how much the Debian girls
On Sex, 2004-08-06 at 16:09, Daniel Ruoso wrote:
You just don't care about the problem that debian-women is trying to
deal.
I think you're being over defensive. If I understood Jaldhar H. Vyas
right, I agree with him.
What I understand is: Debian (as a Project, in it's Social Contract or
Policy
Selon Daniel Ruoso [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
Em Sex, 2004-08-06 às 11:35, MJ Ray escreveu:
against non-icelandic speakers, it also discourages from people
posting
in english there.
As far as I am aware, anyone could learn more Icelandic if wanted. (I
only know my IRC nick's meaning in
On 2004-08-06 19:06:35 +0100 Joey Hess [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
MJ Ray wrote:
To me, the most obvious fix is to replace debian-women with
something like
debian-equality or debian-welcome
You know, this is a pretty good idea; it's a pity that the rest of
your
message paints you as such an
MJ Ray wrote:
Of course, my views have not appeared on
http://debian-women.opensource-knowhow.com/supporters.html - it seems
there are only positive views there, even if some mention other skews.
Been busy, I'm moving. I have a lot opf mail to be taken care of, and my
#1 priority is the
No need to Cc: me. I'm subscribed.
MJ Ray wrote:
The results seem to be selectively reported. Amaya, please publish the
full returns, like you wrote you would.
Don't worry as soon as I get some spare time I will upload all the new
submissions I have been getting, and yours will be on top of
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:29:40PM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
Evidence. I would like to see evidence that Debian has not been giving
equal rights to males and women over the past years.
The fact that our male / female participation ratio is much lower than even
the gender split in IT, let
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 01:47:51PM -0400, Jaldhar H. Vyas wrote:
On Fri, 6 Aug 2004, MJ Ray wrote:
I hope that people won't feed the
trolls and it results in debian doing something better to tackle
inequalities.
What is left unexamined in all these discussions is why Debian (as a
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:29:40AM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 10:29:40PM +0200, J?r?me Marant wrote:
Evidence. I would like to see evidence that Debian has not been giving
equal rights to males and women over the past years.
The fact that our male / female
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:41:33AM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
What is left unexamined in all these discussions is why Debian (as a
project) should be doing anything to tackle inequalities?
Because there's a whole pile of potential contributors out there that we're
almost certainly driving
On 2004-08-06 21:37:46 +0100 Amaya [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Been busy, I'm moving. [...]
Is that explanation enough?
Yes. Sorry I missed that you were on vac.
It is refreshing to get a nice answer from someone involved with
debian-women. Thank you.
--
MJR/slefMy Opinion Only and not
On Fri, Aug 06, 2004 at 02:06:35PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote:
MJ Ray wrote:
To me, the most obvious fix is to replace debian-women with something
like debian-equality or debian-welcome
You know, this is a pretty good idea; it's a pity that the rest of your
message paints you as such an jerk
On 2004-08-07 02:40:17 +0100 Moray Allan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
While I'm not against a general 'equality' list, I don't think it
would
be a substitute for the debian-women list. I don't think it makes
sense
to lump together all underrepresented groups and assume that the
solutions to
On 2004-08-07 01:46:57 +0100 Jonathan Walther [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
On Sat, Aug 07, 2004 at 10:29:40AM +1000, Matthew Palmer wrote:
The fact that our male / female participation ratio is much lower
than even
the gender split in IT, let alone the wider community should be
enough.
That
62 matches
Mail list logo
