Hi, Nathanael Nerode wrote:
To get back to something *concrete*, would anyone find it sexist if the
phrase was So easy your secretary or your boss could use it? This pairs
a stereotypically male and a sterotypically female profession, both
stereotypically clueless.
These words are also
On Mon, Mar 22, 2004 at 05:31:52PM -0500, Evan Prodromou wrote:
Within our project, if you consider the most effective DDs*, you're
going to also be thinking of the most reasonable, thoughtful, and
friendly ones.
No, I'd say that's entirely wrong. The rest of your mail was based on
similarly
On 2004-03-22 21:52:52 + Andrew Suffield [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
I don't want people to say this might be suboptimal instead of this
is crap, because then I won't be able to tell the difference between
things that are crap and things that are suboptimal. I *want* to know
when something is
On Tue, Mar 23, 2004 at 09:42:47AM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
Hey, sure. It's impossible not to offend anyone. But it's always
possible to deal with people politely and respectfully. How they react
is their own business.
That attitude was the cause of the Earth-Minbari war.
And hey, we
On Tue, Mar 23, 2004 at 10:09:48AM +, MJ Ray wrote:
On 2004-03-22 21:52:52 + Andrew Suffield [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:
I don't want people to say this might be suboptimal instead of this
is crap, because then I won't be able to tell the difference between
things that are crap and
AS == Andrew Suffield [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Me Within our project, if you consider the most effective DDs*,
Me you're going to also be thinking of the most reasonable,
Me thoughtful, and friendly ones.
AS No, I'd say that's entirely wrong.
I'd say that you're being
On Tue, Mar 23, 2004 at 09:28:12PM +, Andrew Suffield wrote:
On Tue, Mar 23, 2004 at 09:14:52AM -0500, Evan Prodromou wrote:
AS The rest of your mail was based on similarly dumb ideas.
Which ideas do I have that are so dumb?
That you shouldn't be mean when you don't have to?
Evan Prodromou wrote:
AS == Andrew Suffield [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
AS Sure, and that's best accomplished by everybody not being a
AS wuss.
It doesn't make you a wuss to be respectful to others. Quite the
contrary: the strong know their own strength and don't need to flex
Andrew Suffield wrote:
If people address issues rather than personalitites then everything
you have said is completely irrelevant, because they aren't going to
be perturbed by the speech pattern of the people they are talking
to, so we can phrase things however we damn well please.
You're
On 2004-03-21 01:46:14 + Hamish Moffatt [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sat, Mar 20, 2004 at 03:30:32PM +, MJ Ray wrote:
Ignoring the sexism, it's still rather insensitive to some. Would
improving
ease-of-use make debian usable by the dead?
That is a very silly comment indeed.
So are
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JW == Jonathan Walther [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
JW You are right. It is horrible discrimination that my pet dog
JW is not allowed to vote in the US presidential elections. Down
JW with discrimination!
Let me get this straight: are
Amaya dijo [Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 02:44:31PM +0100]:
On a side note, other real life examples.
- At Debconf @ Toronto, BDale used grannies as examples of the worst
kind of clueless users Debian should aim at. Susan happens to be a DD
and a grannie, so he stood corrected, but refused my
GW == Gunnar Wolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
GW However, I do feel that trying to be politically correct in
GW order never to offend anyone is plain stupid.
How about this:
1) We act courteous, mature, and professional towards each other.
2) When representing Debian, we think ahead of
On Mon, Mar 22, 2004 at 01:37:20PM -0500, Evan Prodromou wrote:
GW == Gunnar Wolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
GW However, I do feel that trying to be politically correct in
GW order never to offend anyone is plain stupid.
How about this:
1) We act courteous, mature, and
AS == Andrew Suffield [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
AS Sure, and that's best accomplished by everybody not being a
AS wuss.
It doesn't make you a wuss to be respectful to others. Quite the
contrary: the strong know their own strength and don't need to flex
their muscles all the time.
On Mon, Mar 22, 2004 at 05:31:52PM -0500, Evan Prodromou wrote:
AS == Andrew Suffield [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
AS Sure, and that's best accomplished by everybody not being a
AS wuss.
It doesn't make you a wuss to be respectful to others. Quite the
contrary: the strong know their own
JW == Jonathan Walther [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
JW I don't appreciate the way you are always flexing your
JW muscles and accusing your fellow DDs of being sexist.
I didn't accuse you of being sexist, Jonathan. I would, if I knew that
you thought that dogs and women were equally unfit
Jonathan Walther wrote:
Yes, you should indeed complain about the so easy your grandmother can
use it, but not because it discriminates against women; rather,
because it discriminates against men.
There is no substantive difference between the two, IMNSHO; I feel no need,
when pointing out
On Sun, Mar 21, 2004 at 09:08:46PM -0500, Nathanael Nerode wrote:
Yes, you should indeed complain about the so easy your grandmother can
use it, but not because it discriminates against women; rather,
because it discriminates against men.
There is no substantive difference between the two,
On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 09:18:48PM +0100, Josip Rodin wrote:
On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 02:44:31PM +0100, Amaya wrote:
- On a talk at Madrid, Miguel de Icaza who is a close friend of mine
BTW, used female secretaries as examples of clueless users.
Well, that's probably because that's
* Benj. Mako Hill ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote:
IIRC, the point Susan brought up at Debconf2 after the numerous so
easy your grandmother can use it references was, why always the
grand*mother*? Fact is, these little references paint the person as
stupid, or unskilled, or somehow weaker (pick the
On Sat, Mar 20, 2004 at 01:12:26AM +0100, Benj. Mako Hill wrote:
IIRC, the point Susan brought up at Debconf2 after the numerous so
easy your grandmother can use it references was, why always the
grand*mother*? Fact is, these little references paint the person as
stupid, or unskilled, or
On 2004-03-20 00:12:26 + Benj. Mako Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
IIRC, the point Susan brought up at Debconf2 after the numerous so
easy your grandmother can use it [...]
Ignoring the sexism, it's still rather insensitive to some. Would
improving ease-of-use make debian usable by the
On Sat, Mar 20, 2004 at 03:30:32PM +, MJ Ray wrote:
On 2004-03-20 00:12:26 + Benj. Mako Hill [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
IIRC, the point Susan brought up at Debconf2 after the numerous so
easy your grandmother can use it [...]
Ignoring the sexism, it's still rather insensitive to
On Sat, 20 Mar 2004, Benj. Mako Hill wrote:
IIRC, the point Susan brought up at Debconf2 after the numerous so
easy your grandmother can use it references was, why always the
grand*mother*?
I remember talking to Susan about this and though my memory is a bit fuzzy
I thought her point was
Josip Rodin wrote:
On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 02:44:31PM +0100, Amaya wrote:
- On a talk at Madrid, Miguel de Icaza who is a close friend of mine
BTW, used female secretaries as examples of clueless users.
Well, that's probably because that's empirically proven to be correct...
But
Josip Rodin wrote:
On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 02:44:31PM +0100, Amaya wrote:
- On a talk at Madrid, Miguel de Icaza who is a close friend of mine
BTW, used female secretaries as examples of clueless users.
I'd have used bosses -- come on, doesn't anyone read Dilbert?
I know specifically of a
On Mon, Mar 15, 2004 at 07:54:10PM -0600, John Goerzen wrote:
Your mail fairly much appears to say nothing.
But that talk did say many things. And I was not the only one offended
by it. It was extremely sexist. Debian looked like (and probably is) a
boys club.
Could you perhaps provide
On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 01:30:08PM +1000, Anthony Towns wrote:
We covered a number of the scripts in detail, and as a joke,
included pictures of the girls the rest were named after. That portion
of the talk just ended up as a soft-core slideshow though, and, to my
mind, didn't come off as
Mike Beattie wrote:
I'll only apologise to those that are unable to take such things with
a grain of salt.
No need to apologise, really.
The talk was probably intended to be amusing and the overall tone was
light-hearted. But I want you to realize that this puts people off.
I even felt like
On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 02:44:31PM +0100, Amaya wrote:
On a side note, other real life examples.
- At Debconf @ Toronto, BDale used grannies as examples of the worst
kind of clueless users Debian should aim at. Susan happens to be a DD
and a grannie, so he stood corrected, but refused my
On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 02:44:31PM +0100, Amaya wrote:
- On a talk at Madrid, Miguel de Icaza who is a close friend of mine
BTW, used female secretaries as examples of clueless users.
Well, that's probably because that's empirically proven to be correct...
it's like saying stop only
Josip Rodin wrote:
One just can't escape certain truths :)
Plonk! :-)
--
.''`. Yo también estaba en esos trenes. I was also on those trains
: :' :
`. `' Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux (Sid 2.4.20 Ext3)
`- www.amayita.com www.malapecora.com www.chicasduras.com
Listening to
Mike Beattie wrote:
Matt, I hate to burst your bubble, but IRC is not real life,
Do you believe your talk @ Oslo was Real Life?
Your mail fairly much appears to say nothing.
But that talk did say many things. And I was not the only one offended
by it. It was extremely sexist. Debian looked
On Tue, Mar 16, 2004 at 12:34:39AM +0100, Amaya wrote:
Mike Beattie wrote:
Matt, I hate to burst your bubble, but IRC is not real life,
Do you believe your talk @ Oslo was Real Life?
Your mail fairly much appears to say nothing.
But that talk did say many things. And I was not the
Hi, Jonathan Walther wrote:
Lukas, I see that you are coming from a position of a lot of hurt and
pain. I empathize with your suffering. How can we list-members help
you out?
Priceless.
*PLONK*.
--
Matthias Urlichs
Hi, Peter Samuelson wrote:
Yes, ok, but I wouldn't call it censorship... more, a type of
'policing'.
Mere matter of terminology. It *is* censorship.
Hmm... calling that mere glosses over some important differences in
meaning.
IMHO:
Censorship means controlling which ideas get propagated,
On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 06:34:23PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote:
On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 12:22:44PM +1300, Mike Beattie wrote:
Matt, I hate to burst your bubble, but IRC is not real life, and in the
grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter - we do not control what
people say or do. We
Jonathan Walther [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 06:34:23PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote:
On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 12:22:44PM +1300, Mike Beattie wrote:
Matt, I hate to burst your bubble, but IRC is not real life, and in the
grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter -
Lukas, I see that you are coming from a position of a lot of hurt and
pain. I empathize with your suffering. How can we list-members help
you out?
Jonathan
On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 08:07:53AM -0500, Lukas Geyer wrote:
Jonathan Walther [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at
Jonathan Walther [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Lukas, I see that you are coming from a position of a lot of hurt and
pain. I empathize with your suffering. How can we list-members help
you out?
My suffering in this case was mostly caused by your posting, so
probably the best you could do to
On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 10:26:23AM -0500, Lukas Geyer wrote:
Lukas, I see that you are coming from a position of a lot of hurt and
pain. I empathize with your suffering. How can we list-members help
you out?
My suffering in this case was mostly caused by your posting, so
probably the best
Michael Poole [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
If people must be rude to each other in counter-productive ways, could
they please do it off-list? When bullying (to borrow the term used
earlier in a related thread) moves from technical issues to personal
attacks, it merely escalates problems. It
Hello, my name is Matt R Hall. I am a student of
computer engineering and German at the University of
Pacific in Stockton, CA. IANAD (I Am Not A Developer),
so I reserve my comments specifically to the IRC
channel, where I have been present regularly since
1998 under the nickname mhall.
I would
On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 01:05:17PM -0800, Matthew Hall wrote:
[snip drivel]
Next, I would like to say some words to those who have
been saying that Debian doesn't discriminate against
women. As far as IRC goes, IT DOES. ADMIT IT ALREADY.
Every day the channel is filled with trolls and
[snip]
On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 12:22:44PM +1300, Mike Beattie wrote:
Matt, I hate to burst your bubble, but IRC is not real life, and in the
grand scheme of things it really doesn't matter - we do not control what
people say or do. We cannot, and we will not.
That's absurd. People get kicked and
On Sun, Mar 07, 2004 at 06:34:23PM -0500, David Nusinow wrote:
That's absurd. People get kicked and banned for obvious trolling,
crapflooding, and racist remarks. We can and we do control what people
say or do, and we can do better.
Have a brain please? I was not talking about the
[Matthew Hall]
there are 12 operators in #debian, which means we expect each one to
be present at least 2 unique hours per day, assuming the task is
equally divided. In my opinion that is probably not enough for a
channel with 600+ people and such extreme traffic levels
There are actually a
On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 12:50:10PM +1300, Mike Beattie wrote:
Have a brain please? I was not talking about the technicalities of whatever
one does on IRC... Last I looked, Debian's world domination plan did not
include censorship.
Way to resort to personal insults rather than respond to my
[Mike Beattie]
Have a brain please? I was not talking about the technicalities of
whatever one does on IRC... Last I looked, Debian's world domination
plan did not include censorship.
Censorship is entirely appropriate when it comes to maintaining some
decorum in a forum such as IRC. Just as
On Mon, Mar 08, 2004 at 01:35:44PM +1300, Mike Beattie wrote:
[Posting to debian lists is like hitting your head against a brick wall. It
feels good when you stop - so I will after this one]
Yes, ok, but I wouldn't call it censorship... more, a type of 'policing'.
We're not going to
this thread was, Some Comments on Sexism in #debian.
I specifically said I was reserving my comments to
sexism and to our official channel, #debian on
freenode.
To say that my deliberate attempt to limit the scope
of my remarks to a digestible level implies I have
some ulterior belief about other
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