Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Mon, May 02, 2022 at 11:53:12PM -0400, Chris Murphy wrote: > On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 5:29 PM Jeremy Linton wrote: > > And of > > course it also requires disabling swap on zram (which was nonsense on > > the machine anyway, given the disks are faster than it can > > compress/decompress pages). >

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 11:32 AM Jeremy Linton wrote: > Hi, > > On 5/2/22 22:53, Chris Murphy wrote: > > On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 5:29 PM Jeremy Linton > wrote: > >> > >> On 4/6/22 12:57, Neal Gompa wrote: > >> (trimming) > >>> * NVIDIA graphics > >>> * Broadcom wireless > >>> > >>> The former

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Hi, On 5/2/22 22:53, Chris Murphy wrote: On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 5:29 PM Jeremy Linton wrote: On 4/6/22 12:57, Neal Gompa wrote: (trimming) * NVIDIA graphics * Broadcom wireless The former case is excessively common, and the latter case is fairly common with HP and Dell machines as well as

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Mon, May 2, 2022 at 5:29 PM Jeremy Linton wrote: > > On 4/6/22 12:57, Neal Gompa wrote: > (trimming) > > * NVIDIA graphics > > * Broadcom wireless > > > > The former case is excessively common, and the latter case is fairly > > common with HP and Dell machines as well as some smaller OEMs. I >

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/6/22 12:57, Neal Gompa wrote: (trimming) * NVIDIA graphics * Broadcom wireless The former case is excessively common, and the latter case is fairly common with HP and Dell machines as well as some smaller OEMs. I literally helped someone this past week with both[1][2][3]. The Workstation

RE: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Chris Adams writes: > Once upon a time, Jared Dominguez said: >> Looks like they are using vSphere, which supports UEFI VMs. The same is >> true for KVM, Xen and bhyve, so it's more about what feature set cloud >> providers using these hypervisors are choosing to turn on. > > In a way, this is

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Ben Cotton writes: > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/DeprecateLegacyBIOS > > == Summary == > Make UEFI a hardware requirement for new Fedora installations on > platforms that support it (x86_64). Legacy BIOS support is not > removed, but new non-UEFI installation is not supported on those

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Hi, Brian C. Lane wrote: > https://bcl.fedorapeople.org/boot-grub2-f36.iso > [...] > I have not tested it on CD or DVD physical media. I can confirm that it boots to a GRUB 2.06 menu via real iron EFI from real plastic DVD+RW. The menu offers me to install Fedora 36. So the boot lures for EFI

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/11/22 14:18, Peter Boy wrote: > > >> Am 10.04.2022 um 04:50 schrieb Gary Buhrmaster : >> >> On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 6:01 PM Neal Gompa wrote: >> >>> Moving past the Big Three(tm), the actual >>> cloud providers that matter from a Fedora context are the smaller >>> outfits that principally

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 14.4.2022 02:23, Demi Marie Obenour wrote: On 4/13/22 17:11, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: On 13.4.2022 08:04, David Bold wrote: It seems I must be missing something? Why should we not care about a significant number of our users, just because other OSs have more users? Could you explain

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Hi, Neal Gompa wrote: > The binary RPM for grub's BIOS boot code is grub2-pc (and > grub2-pc-modules), not grub2. But "grub2-pc" is not particularly > descriptive as a source package name, so grub2-bios makes sense for > the source package name if we need to split it. May i propose

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/13/22 17:11, Jóhann B. Guðmundsson wrote: > On 13.4.2022 08:04, David Bold wrote: >> >> It seems I must be missing something? Why should we not care about a >> significant number of our users, just because other OSs have more users? >> Could you explain that? > > First of all this is not

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 13.4.2022 08:04, David Bold wrote: It seems I must be missing something? Why should we not care about a significant number of our users, just because other OSs have more users? Could you explain that? First of all this is not significant number of Fedora's users ( or in the overall

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 12.4.2022 20:44, Mark Otaris wrote: Your calculations have to be off; I’m pretty sure there are way more than 100 Fedora users with a Nvidia GPU. The Linux Hardware Project alone reports 106 Fedora users with Nvidia GPUs (which is actually 29% of their sample) so that’s a hard minimum:

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Your calculations have to be off; I’m pretty sure there are way more than 100 Fedora users with a Nvidia GPU. The Linux Hardware Project alone reports 106 Fedora users with Nvidia GPUs (which is actually 29% of their sample) so that’s a hard minimum:

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 04:59:01PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 3:36 PM Brian C. Lane wrote: > > > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 02:21:04PM -0500, Chris Adams wrote: > > > Once upon a time, Peter Boy said: > > > > I want to reiterate, it's not just about cloud platforms! if

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 12.4.2022 00:24, Mark Otaris wrote: However, the majority of Linux PC users *must* step out of the happy path to get their hardware working for two cases: * NVIDIA graphics * Broadcom wireless In the Firefox Public Data Report, GPU vendor is 69% Intel, 13% Nvidia, 13% AMD, 5% other. I

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 12/04/2022 02:24, Mark Otaris wrote: In the Firefox Public Data Report, GPU vendor is 69% Intel, 13% Nvidia, 13% AMD, 5% other. Keep in mind that most advanced Firefox users turn telemetry off completely. -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org)

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 11/04/2022 22:29, Chris Murphy wrote: UEFI Spec 2.8, 13.3.1.1 says "The EFI firmware must support the FAT32, FAT16, and FAT12 variants of the EFI file system. What variant of EFI FAT to use is defined by the size of the media. The rules defining the relationship between media size and FAT

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 11/04/2022 23:35, Brian C. Lane wrote: It is likely because UEFI specifies FAT32 on harddrives, and the minimum size for FAT32 is 256MB. This is not true. From my Fedora VM: Disk /dev/sda1: 200 MiB, 209715200 bytes, 409600 sectors Units: sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes Sector size

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 5:26 PM David Cantrell wrote: > This was already addressed. Fedora should not be expected to jump through > hoops to support vendors unwilling to participate in the open source Linux > ecosystem. Users should stop buying their hardware -or- contribute to > projects like

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

> However, the majority of Linux PC users *must* step out of the happy path > to get their hardware working for two cases: > > * NVIDIA graphics > * Broadcom wireless In the Firefox Public Data Report, GPU vendor is 69% Intel, 13% Nvidia, 13% AMD, 5% other. I don’t think Broadcom wireless is

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Once upon a time, Brian C. Lane said: > It is likely because UEFI specifies FAT32 on harddrives, and the minimum > size for FAT32 is 256MB. mkdosfs will make a FAT32 without warning on a size of 33296KB. -- Chris Adams ___ devel mailing list --

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 3:36 PM Brian C. Lane wrote: > > On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 02:21:04PM -0500, Chris Adams wrote: > > Once upon a time, Peter Boy said: > > > I want to reiterate, it's not just about cloud platforms! if we remove > > > BIOS boot (too early), we also kick Fedora servers,

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 02:21:04PM -0500, Chris Adams wrote: > Once upon a time, Peter Boy said: > > I want to reiterate, it's not just about cloud platforms! if we remove BIOS > > boot (too early), we also kick Fedora servers, installed on hardware, out > > of these data centers. And the

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 1:21 PM Chris Adams wrote: > > Once upon a time, Peter Boy said: > > I want to reiterate, it's not just about cloud platforms! if we remove BIOS > > boot (too early), we also kick Fedora servers, installed on hardware, out > > of these data centers. And the reason is

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

> Am 11.04.2022 um 21:21 schrieb Chris Adams : > > Once upon a time, Peter Boy said: >> I want to reiterate, it's not just about cloud platforms! if we remove BIOS >> boot (too early), we also kick Fedora servers, installed on hardware, out of >> these data centers. And the reason is not

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 02:21:04PM -0500, Chris Adams wrote: > Once upon a time, Peter Boy said: > > I want to reiterate, it's not just about cloud platforms! if we remove BIOS > > boot (too early), we also kick Fedora servers, installed on hardware, out > > of these data centers. And the

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Once upon a time, Peter Boy said: > I want to reiterate, it's not just about cloud platforms! if we remove BIOS > boot (too early), we also kick Fedora servers, installed on hardware, out of > these data centers. And the reason is not that this server hardware does not > support UEFI, but the

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

> Am 10.04.2022 um 04:50 schrieb Gary Buhrmaster : > > On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 6:01 PM Neal Gompa wrote: > >> Moving past the Big Three(tm), the actual >> cloud providers that matter from a Fedora context are the smaller >> outfits that principally serve Linux users. These are companies like

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 4:36 AM Thomas Schmitt wrote: > > A legacy/fallback image (or two) would provide some breathing room to > > remove more legacy layers. Including possibly even ISO 9660. > > Aww. 14 years of xorriso development would be obsoleted. {:| > > Giving up ISO 9660 would mean to

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Neal Gompa writes: > Alright, I'll bite. I am within my rights to propose any Change I want > for Fedora Cloud, which I help steward with David Duncan. As, presumably, is anyone else? > As an aside, I examined the state of all release blocking Fedora > deliverables, and something I noticed is

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 01:57:00PM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote: > On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 11:50 AM Jared Dominguez wrote: > > > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 8:20 AM Neal Gompa wrote: > >> > >> On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 8:04 AM Vít Ondruch wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > Dne 05. 04. 22 v 17:08 Neal

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Mon, Apr 11, 2022 at 3:02 AM Lennart Poettering wrote: > > On Mo, 11.04.22 02:34, Chris Murphy (li...@colorremedies.com) wrote: > > > > > OK, I'll bite. > > > > > > > > What are you missing in sd-boot, specifically? > > > > > > > > Also, why would a boot menu need a particularly fancy user

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Neal Gompa writes: > Windows is a niche in the server space, rather than the default That may be true for many workloads, but I doubt it's true in all cases - Active Directory has a huge footprint, for instance, and Linux is not "the default" for identity services. Be well, --Robbie

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Hi, Chris Murphy wrote: > At least with the BIOS firmware without a bug, the GRUB LBA 0 code > jumps direct to core.img, no instruction on how to read the GPT and > find the core.img from BIOS boot partition. That's probably because the GRUB MBR code for hard disk gets the LBA of the next stage

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Mo, 11.04.22 02:34, Chris Murphy (li...@colorremedies.com) wrote: > > > OK, I'll bite. > > > > > > What are you missing in sd-boot, specifically? > > > > > > Also, why would a boot menu need a particularly fancy user experience? > > > It's a boot manager, not a web browser. > > > > "barebones

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Hi, On 4/11/22 01:07, Gabriel Ramirez wrote: > On 4/10/22 16:10, Neal Gompa wrote: >> On Sun, Apr 10, 2022 at 4:37 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski >> wrote: >>> On Friday, 08 April 2022 at 16:14, Zamir SUN wrote: >>> [...] Probably it isn't a problem for some users, but I'm still having

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Sun, Apr 10, 2022 at 1:31 PM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 07, 2022 at 10:43:02AM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: > > On Mi, 06.04.22 07:33, Neal Gompa (ngomp...@gmail.com) wrote: > > > Irrespective of this change, I would flat-out oppose moving to > > > sd-boot. In any

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Sat, Apr 9, 2022 at 1:51 AM Thomas Schmitt wrote: > > Hi, > > > OK so there isn't (yet) an option to embed the GRUB core.img in a GPT > > BIOS boot partition, I take it? The assumption is MBR? On hard drives, > > core.img goes in the MBR gap. I'm not sure where it goes on xorriso > > produced

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Sunday, 10 April 2022 at 22:30, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > On Friday, 08 April 2022 at 13:41, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > > On 08/04/2022 09:54, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > > > I already did. Isn't that what I wrote? > > > > Can you post their answer? > > Yes: >

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Sun, Apr 10, 2022 at 11:06 PM Gary Buhrmaster wrote: > > On Sun, Apr 10, 2022 at 1:27 PM Neal Gompa wrote: > > > Windows 11 *does not matter* here. > > (Windows) Desktop as a Service (DaaS)[0] may > change that faster than some expect (or faster > than some hope). There is a large push by >

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Sun, Apr 10, 2022 at 1:27 PM Neal Gompa wrote: > Windows 11 *does not matter* here. (Windows) Desktop as a Service (DaaS)[0] may change that faster than some expect (or faster than some hope). There is a large push by some orgs to move services off premise into the cloud (for a number of

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Sun, Apr 10, 2022 at 7:08 PM Gabriel Ramirez wrote: > > On 4/10/22 16:10, Neal Gompa wrote: > > On Sun, Apr 10, 2022 at 4:37 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski > > wrote: > >> On Friday, 08 April 2022 at 16:14, Zamir SUN wrote: > >> [...] > >>> Probably it isn't a problem for some users, but

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/10/22 16:10, Neal Gompa wrote: On Sun, Apr 10, 2022 at 4:37 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: On Friday, 08 April 2022 at 16:14, Zamir SUN wrote: [...] Probably it isn't a problem for some users, but I'm still having bad experience with UEFI on x86_64 now. Out of my 3 machines I

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Sun, Apr 10, 2022 at 4:37 PM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > > On Friday, 08 April 2022 at 16:14, Zamir SUN wrote: > [...] > > Probably it isn't a problem for some users, but I'm still having bad > > experience with UEFI on x86_64 now. Out of my 3 machines I only have 1 > > system that

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Friday, 08 April 2022 at 16:14, Zamir SUN wrote: [...] > Probably it isn't a problem for some users, but I'm still having bad > experience with UEFI on x86_64 now. Out of my 3 machines I only have 1 > system that works fine with UEFI. And my parents' laptop was purchased > 2 years ago and the

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Friday, 08 April 2022 at 19:14, Brian C. Lane wrote: [...] > So like I said yesterday, I'll look into switching to use grub2 for > Fedora 37, assuming grub2 continues to support BIOS. Thank you very much! From my side, I've found another BIOS-only machine in my junkyard and I'm willing to put

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Friday, 08 April 2022 at 13:41, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > On 08/04/2022 09:54, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > > I already did. Isn't that what I wrote? > > Can you post their answer? Yes: ``` On VPS, we do not provide images with UEFI enabled. ``` They support UEFI on their

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 07, 2022 at 10:43:02AM +0200, Lennart Poettering wrote: > On Mi, 06.04.22 07:33, Neal Gompa (ngomp...@gmail.com) wrote: > > Irrespective of this change, I would flat-out oppose moving to > > sd-boot. In any case, you can't use sd-boot for live media. > > > > If we were going to move to

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Sun, Apr 10, 2022 at 10:27:25AM -0400, Neal Gompa wrote: > And we can take incremental steps to get there, even now: > > 1. Switch Anaconda to default to GPT even on BIOS setups > 2. Drop syslinux and use GRUB everywhere > 3. Configure new installations to always do hybrid boot installations >

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/10/22 16:27, Neal Gompa wrote: On Sat, Apr 9, 2022 at 10:51 PM Gary Buhrmaster wrote: On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 6:01 PM Neal Gompa wrote: Moving past the Big Three(tm), the actual cloud providers that matter from a Fedora context are the smaller outfits that principally serve Linux

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 2:23 PM Robbie Harwood wrote: > > Michel Alexandre Salim writes: > > > - as I stated, there are offers to help with getting syslinux replaced > > with GRUB. what I've not stated originally is Chris Murphy brought up > > protective MBR and switching all new installs to

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Sat, Apr 9, 2022 at 10:51 PM Gary Buhrmaster wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 6:01 PM Neal Gompa wrote: > > > Moving past the Big Three(tm), the actual > > cloud providers that matter from a Fedora context are the smaller > > outfits that principally serve Linux users. These are companies

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Hi, Nikolay Nikolov wrote: > I imagine it is like those polyglot programs, that are simultaneously valid > in several totally different programming languages: Yep. A boot-everywhere ISO for x86 is quite like that. Every firmware variant can see in it what it expects. > Actually, I have already

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/10/22 05:50, Gary Buhrmaster wrote: On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 6:01 PM Neal Gompa wrote: Moving past the Big Three(tm), the actual cloud providers that matter from a Fedora context are the smaller outfits that principally serve Linux users. These are companies like DigitalOcean, Linode

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/10/22 09:56, Thomas Schmitt wrote: Hi, Nikolay Nikolov wrote: Maybe I should try adapting my code, so that it finds the GRUB BIOS boot partition and loads it? This would be a nice stunt for which we would have to find a use case. As stated yesterday, the GRUB El Torito image contains a

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Hi, Nikolay Nikolov wrote: > Maybe I should try adapting my code, so that it finds the GRUB BIOS boot > partition and loads it? This would be a nice stunt for which we would have to find a use case. As stated yesterday, the GRUB El Torito image contains a core.img which serves the same purpose

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 6:01 PM Neal Gompa wrote: > Moving past the Big Three(tm), the actual > cloud providers that matter from a Fedora context are the smaller > outfits that principally serve Linux users. These are companies like > DigitalOcean, Linode (Akamai), Hetzner, VexxHost, and others

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/10/22 00:30, Thomas Schmitt wrote: Hi, Nikolay Nikolov wrote: I haven't looked at GRUB's MBR code, but there's enough space in the MBR to scan the GPT entries, find a specific GUID partition type and load the first several kilobytes from it and transfer control to it. Well, GRUB goes a

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Hi, this is what i propose as boot layout of an entirely GRUB based ISO which boots on EFI and not-so-buggy legacy BIOS from USB stick and DVD: $ xorriso -indev grub_mkrescue_gpt_appended.iso -report_el_torito plain

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Hi, Nikolay Nikolov wrote: > I haven't looked at GRUB's MBR code, but there's enough space in the MBR to > scan the GPT entries, find a specific GUID partition type and load the first > several kilobytes from it and transfer control to it. Well, GRUB goes a different way on legacy BIOS. It boots

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/9/22 03:07, Chris Murphy wrote: On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 4:31 PM Thomas Schmitt wrote: Yeah, I'm not aware off hand of any UEFI that have a problem with the first 440 bytes of LBA 0 being non-zero. If they did, then they would have problems with GPT disks, initialized by Windows 10,

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Hi, > OK so there isn't (yet) an option to embed the GRUB core.img in a GPT > BIOS boot partition, I take it? The assumption is MBR? On hard drives, > core.img goes in the MBR gap. I'm not sure where it goes on xorriso > produced ISOs though, but presumably not the gap because there's a > valid

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/8/22 12:07, Jared Dominguez wrote: If the experience is buggy with Windows too, HP probably has addressed that as previously stated, which is why I asked about how up-to-date Samuel's BIOS is. On several occasions I've seen complaints about firmware issues that are solved by updating.

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 4:31 PM Thomas Schmitt wrote: > > Hi, > > Chris Murphy wrote: > > Is there a possibility of dropping MBR? i.e. use GPT containing both a > > biosboot partition type, and EFI System partition type? > > I am not aware that legacy BIOS would hop directly on any GPT partition >

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Hi, Chris Murphy wrote: > Is there a possibility of dropping MBR? i.e. use GPT containing both a > biosboot partition type, and EFI System partition type? I am not aware that legacy BIOS would hop directly on any GPT partition or any MBR partition table partition. The convention for

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 12:29 PM Thomas Schmitt wrote: > The lines, which will need changes for using GRUB, are at least: > > -isohybrid-mbr /usr/share/syslinux/isohdpfx.bin > [...] > -boot-load-size 4 -boot-info-table -no-emul-boot > -b isolinux/isolinux.bin > > grub-mkrescue (on Debian)

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Fri, Apr 8, 2022, 11:52 Neal Gompa wrote: > On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 11:47 AM Jared Dominguez wrote: > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022, 19:46 Samuel Sieb wrote: > >> > >> On 4/7/22 14:51, Jared Dominguez wrote: > >> > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 3:49 PM Samuel Sieb >> >

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Fri, Apr 08, 2022 at 02:39:04PM -0400, Robbie Harwood wrote: > Michel Alexandre Salim writes: > > > - as I stated, there are offers to help with getting syslinux replaced > > with GRUB > > More generally, I'm concerned that folks think this'll help a lot more > than it actually will.

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Michel Alexandre Salim writes: > - as I stated, there are offers to help with getting syslinux replaced > with GRUB More generally, I'm concerned that folks think this'll help a lot more than it actually will. There's a tendency to think in terms of packages - they're contained units and

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/8/22 08:46, Jared Dominguez wrote: On Thu, Apr 7, 2022, 19:46 Samuel Sieb > wrote: This is not comparable to the 32-bit removal where it was only a few really old systems.  This is going to affect decent systems that are less than 10 years old.  I have a

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Fri, Apr 08, 2022 at 10:14:19PM +0800, Zamir SUN wrote: > > > Probably it isn't a problem for some users, but I'm still having bad > experience with UEFI on x86_64 now. Out of my 3 machines I only have 1 > system that works fine with UEFI. And my parents' laptop was purchased 2 > years ago

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Hi, i'm the developer of xorriso. Please CC me with replies just in case that i unsubscribe because of too much traffic. Further: Sorry for my reply-id pointing to the predecessor of the message which i quote. I found it at https://www.spinics.net/lists/fedora-devel/msg299915.html Chris

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Michel Alexandre Salim writes: > - as I stated, there are offers to help with getting syslinux replaced > with GRUB. what I've not stated originally is Chris Murphy brought up > protective MBR and switching all new installs to inst.gpt, which let > us future proof new installations for

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Fri, Apr 08, 2022 at 12:41:22PM -0400, Robbie Harwood wrote: > Michel Alexandre Salim writes: > > > I sympathize with the change owners' position that detractors need > > to assume their good intentions, but I feel like the same needs to be > > assumed for community contributions, > > That's

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 1:50 PM Hans de Goede wrote: > > Hi Brian, > > On 4/8/22 19:14, Brian C. Lane wrote: > > > > > So like I said yesterday, I'll look into switching to use grub2 for > > Fedora 37, assuming grub2 continues to support BIOS. > > Thank you for looking into switching to using

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Hi Brian, On 4/8/22 19:14, Brian C. Lane wrote: > So like I said yesterday, I'll look into switching to use grub2 for > Fedora 37, assuming grub2 continues to support BIOS. Thank you for looking into switching to using GRUB for the livecds. If you have some test livecd img using grub instead

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 11:14 AM Brian C. Lane wrote: > The reason I wrote the PR was because, as I understand it, syslinux is > going away soon. It was an easy patch to write, and I find it easier to > discuss things when there is code present (or absent as in this case). > > My *personal*

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Fri, Apr 08, 2022 at 06:46:30AM +0200, Kevin Kofler via devel wrote: > Neal Gompa wrote: > > The pull request to delete the code for BIOS support in lorax means > > that we can't produce media with BIOS support at all once that's > > merged. They've tied dropping syslinux to dropping BIOS

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 12:41 PM Robbie Harwood wrote: > > Michel Alexandre Salim writes: > > > Would using Grub for legacy boot be more, or less work than continuing > > to support syslinux, assuming people step up to do the development and > > validation? > > syslinux is by default only used on

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Michel Alexandre Salim writes: > Would using Grub for legacy boot be more, or less work than continuing > to support syslinux, assuming people step up to do the development and > validation? syslinux is by default only used on the live media. Legacy installs today provision grub2. So moving

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Fri, Apr 08, 2022 at 11:46:50AM -0400, Jared Dominguez wrote: > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022, 19:46 Samuel Sieb wrote: > > > I don't understand why we're still using syslinux instead of grub for > > legacy boots, especially since I think now you can use the same grub.cfg > > file for both. > > >

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 11:47 AM Jared Dominguez wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022, 19:46 Samuel Sieb wrote: >> >> On 4/7/22 14:51, Jared Dominguez wrote: >> > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 3:49 PM Samuel Sieb > > > wrote: >> > >> > On 4/7/22 08:02, Jared Dominguez wrote:

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022, 19:46 Samuel Sieb wrote: > On 4/7/22 14:51, Jared Dominguez wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 3:49 PM Samuel Sieb > > wrote: > > > > On 4/7/22 08:02, Jared Dominguez wrote: > > > This is a proposal. Nothing has changed yet. The choice is now

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Fri, Apr 8, 2022, 00:48 Kevin Kofler via devel < devel@lists.fedoraproject.org> wrote: > Neal Gompa wrote: > > The pull request to delete the code for BIOS support in lorax means > > that we can't produce media with BIOS support at all once that's > > merged. They've tied dropping syslinux to

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Dne 08. 04. 22 v 6:46 Kevin Kofler via devel napsal(a): Neal Gompa wrote: The pull request to delete the code for BIOS support in lorax means that we can't produce media with BIOS support at all once that's merged. They've tied dropping syslinux to dropping BIOS support entirely. It is also

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/5/22 22:52, Ben Cotton wrote: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/DeprecateLegacyBIOS == Summary == Make UEFI a hardware requirement for new Fedora installations on platforms that support it (x86_64). Legacy BIOS support is not removed, but new non-UEFI installation is not supported

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Vitaly Zaitsev via devel writes: > On 07/04/2022 18:10, Robbie Harwood wrote: > >> While we do maintain a large set of patches downstream, due to upstream >> being inactive for a while, today upstream is alive and very much not >> abandoned: > > Why not upstream all those patches then? I resent

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Fri, Apr 8, 2022 at 8:07 AM Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > > On 07/04/2022 18:10, Robbie Harwood wrote: > > While we do maintain a large set of patches downstream, due to upstream > > being inactive for a while, today upstream is alive and very much not > > abandoned: > > Why not upstream

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 07/04/2022 18:10, Robbie Harwood wrote: While we do maintain a large set of patches downstream, due to upstream being inactive for a while, today upstream is alive and very much not abandoned: Why not upstream all those patches then? -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org)

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 07/04/2022 22:04, Demi Marie Obenour wrote: *Virtual* hardware is another matter entirely. All popular hypervisors (KVM/qemu, VirtualBox and VMWare) have full UEFI boot support. -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) ___ devel

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 08/04/2022 09:54, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: I already did. Isn't that what I wrote? Can you post their answer? -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org) ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Am 07.04.22 um 18:14 schrieb Robbie Harwood: Robert Marcano via devel writes: Is this change only related to install media support for booting with BIOS only? Would I be able to install newer Fedora releases using Legacy PXE on BIOS only machines? The intent is to indicate that new legacy

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thursday, 07 April 2022 at 18:42, Robbie Harwood wrote: > Michael Catanzaro writes: > > > On Wed, Apr 6 2022 at 03:35:38 PM -0400, Jared Dominguez > > wrote: > >> This seems like a strong assumption to me considering that aside from > >> the largest cloud providers (with whom Red Hat is

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Friday, 08 April 2022 at 08:57, Samuel Sieb wrote: > On 4/7/22 18:54, Neal Gompa wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 9:21 PM Chris Adams wrote: > > > > > > Once upon a time, Chris Murphy said: > > > > syslinux (really isolinux) is only used on installation media. > > > > > > It's commonly

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Friday, 08 April 2022 at 04:37, Gary Buhrmaster wrote: > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 10:05 PM Matthew Miller > wrote: > > > > On Thu, Apr 07, 2022 at 03:43:07PM +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > > > Clover is described here: > > > https://github.com/CloverHackyColor/CloverBootloader > > > > This

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thursday, 07 April 2022 at 14:54, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > On 07/04/2022 09:59, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > > OVH is another big provider and they don't offer UEFI boot with their > > VPS range. I've just confirmed it with their support. > > You should contact their

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/7/22 18:54, Neal Gompa wrote: On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 9:21 PM Chris Adams wrote: Once upon a time, Chris Murphy said: syslinux (really isolinux) is only used on installation media. It's commonly used for BIOS PXE booting as well. *shudders at the memories of dealing with pxelinux*

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Neal Gompa wrote: > The pull request to delete the code for BIOS support in lorax means > that we can't produce media with BIOS support at all once that's > merged. They've tied dropping syslinux to dropping BIOS support > entirely. It is also unclear that they'd take a contribution to rewire >

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