Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 3 August 2017 at 04:55, Przemek Klosowski wrote: > This looks like a trend: sqlite started doing this and now python :). I > dislike being forced to specify versions after I've been on my best behavior > and made sure that my tools work with up-to-date software. If python3 is > becoming the def

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 07/28/2017 02:21 PM, Miro Hrončok wrote: On 28.7.2017 20:11, Colin Walters wrote: That's actually something I hadn't even considered; is it proposed here to actually have a flag day where all (or even some) of the python3 executables start using /usr/bin/python and everything else is /usr/b

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On Tue, Aug 01, 2017 at 11:29:30AM -0500, Jason L Tibbitts III wrote: > > "MH" == Miro Hrončok writes: > > MH> I just had a discussion with Tomáš Orsava and Petr Viktorin on > MH> #fedora-python. Rather than asking FESCo now to allow mass > MH> fully-automated spec changing, we'll open bugs a

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

> "MH" == Miro Hrončok writes: MH> I just had a discussion with Tomáš Orsava and Petr Viktorin on MH> #fedora-python. Rather than asking FESCo now to allow mass MH> fully-automated spec changing, we'll open bugs as planned, but we'll MH> attach patches generated by your script to them. It's

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 29.7.2017 01:27, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:11:05PM +0200, Miro Hrončok wrote: On 28.7.2017 22:44, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 05:51:39PM +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote: On 28 July 2017 at 03:15, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 31 July 2017 at 05:10, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: > If I am writing it as /bin/sh I am expecting that bash, zsh, etc are going > to fall into POSIX conformant mode outlined many years ago. Then the script > I run should work on everything from that SunOS-4.1.1 box needed for a 30 > year old ex

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 31 July 2017 at 05:40, Björn Persson wrote: > Gerald Henriksen wrote: >> On Fri, 28 Jul 2017 21:06:45 +0200, you wrote: >> >Why is not providing /usr/bin/python more use hostile? Why is it better >> >for any script to use /usr/bin/python instead of /usr/bin/python3? >> >> Because any user of F

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 31 July 2017 at 05:19, Björn Persson wrote: > Mathieu Bridon wrote: >> On Mon, 2017-07-31 at 00:02 +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> > So that's effectively a hard design constraint for me: folks >> > targeting EL6 and EL7 *are* going to have to use "/usr/bin/python" in >> > their shebang lines (s

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

Gerald Henriksen wrote: > On Fri, 28 Jul 2017 21:06:45 +0200, you wrote: > >Why is not providing /usr/bin/python more use hostile? Why is it better > >for any script to use /usr/bin/python instead of /usr/bin/python3? > > Because any user of Fedora trying to learn Python using either books > or

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

Mathieu Bridon wrote: > On Mon, 2017-07-31 at 00:02 +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote: > > So that's effectively a hard design constraint for me: folks > > targeting EL6 and EL7 *are* going to have to use "/usr/bin/python" in > > their shebang lines (since they can't even assume "/usr/bin/python2" > > wil

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 30 July 2017 at 10:02, Nick Coghlan wrote: > > > Providing > > an unversioned "python" serves only to lure incautious programmers into > > using it where they should use a versioned name. > > My aim is for folks to start thinking of a "/usr/bin/python" shebang > as being akin to writing "/bin/

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On Fri, 28 Jul 2017 14:11:56 -0400, you wrote: >> One of Fedora's stated goals is to remain close to the upstream. >> Upstream Python is going to change /usr/bin/python to mean Python 3. If >> AH keeps it on Python 2, it will be confusing for Python programmers >> using AH. It will be especially c

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On Fri, 28 Jul 2017 21:06:45 +0200, you wrote: >On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 10:29:12PM +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote: > >> It's only /usr/bin/python itself that still presents an unsolved >> problem, since the status quo (not providing it at all) is even more >> user hostile than pointing it at a modern v

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On Mon, 2017-07-31 at 00:02 +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote: > On 30 July 2017 at 07:57, Björn Persson wrote: > > Mathieu Bridon wrote: > > > To be honest, given how much energy is spent on this migration > > > for a very low gain, it makes me feel like having an unversioned > > > "python" (whether as

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 30 July 2017 at 07:57, Björn Persson wrote: > Mathieu Bridon wrote: >> To be honest, given how much energy is spent on this migration for a >> very low gain, it makes me feel like having an unversioned "python" >> (whether as package or executable names) was a mistake we should let >> disappea

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

Mathieu Bridon wrote: > To be honest, given how much energy is spent on this migration for a > very low gain, it makes me feel like having an unversioned "python" > (whether as package or executable names) was a mistake we should let > disappear with Python 2. I agree. From an emotional point of

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

> Fedora's Python version migration needs to be coordinated with RHEL. The most important step would be to *NOT* change /usr/bin/python to /usr/bin/python3, but have it provided by a separate (non-default) package. For Fedora and RHEL, this would mean the separate package does not get installed

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 08:44:37PM +, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 05:51:39PM +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote: > > On 28 July 2017 at 03:15, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek > > wrote: > > > Do you think it'd be possible to script the python-foo to python2-foo > > > renam

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:11:05PM +0200, Miro Hrončok wrote: > On 28.7.2017 22:44, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > >On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 05:51:39PM +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote: > >>On 28 July 2017 at 03:15, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek > >>wrote: > >>>Do you think it'd be possible to script

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On Fri, 2017-07-28 at 21:06 +0200, Till Maas wrote: > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 10:29:12PM +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote: > > > It's only /usr/bin/python itself that still presents an unsolved > > problem, since the status quo (not providing it at all) is even > > more user hostile than pointing it at a

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 28.7.2017 22:44, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 05:51:39PM +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote: On 28 July 2017 at 03:15, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: Do you think it'd be possible to script the python-foo to python2-foo renaming? If yes, then maybe it'd make sense t

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 05:51:39PM +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote: > On 28 July 2017 at 03:15, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek > wrote: > > Do you think it'd be possible to script the python-foo to python2-foo > > renaming? If yes, then maybe it'd make sense to just get some pps to > > do it in rawhide no

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On Fri, 2017-07-28 at 14:11 -0400, Colin Walters wrote: > First, I don't see a need for even mild pejoratives; instead of > "normal" you could say > for example "other editions". My apologies - I was just struggling with terminology. No offense intended. signature.asc Description: This is a digit

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 10:29:12PM +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote: > It's only /usr/bin/python itself that still presents an unsolved > problem, since the status quo (not providing it at all) is even more > user hostile than pointing it at a modern version of Python 3 that Why is not providing /usr/bi

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 28.7.2017 20:11, Colin Walters wrote: On Fri, Jul 28, 2017, at 01:53 PM, Randy Barlow wrote: On Fri, 2017-07-28 at 12:41 -0400, Colin Walters wrote: I'm opposed to switching the meaning of `/usr/bin/python` for AH anytime soon. It's just going to break stuff, and to me the gain is quite l

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017, at 01:53 PM, Randy Barlow wrote: > On Fri, 2017-07-28 at 12:41 -0400, Colin Walters wrote: > > I'm opposed to switching the meaning of `/usr/bin/python` for AH > > anytime soon.  It's just going to break stuff, and to me the gain is > > quite > > low. > > One of Fedora's st

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 28.7.2017 18:38, Stephen John Smoogen wrote: On 28 July 2017 at 11:42, Miro Hrončok > wrote: On 28.7.2017 16:25, John Dennis wrote: I made this comment previously but because I think it's important I'm going to repeat it. Yes, we hear

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 28.7.2017 18:41, Colin Walters wrote: On Fri, Jul 28, 2017, at 12:16 PM, Miro Hrončok wrote: It's up to the maintainers of Atomic Host to decide what's there. I don't see how that relates to this thread. We have never said anything about what is supposed to be or not to be in the Atomic Host

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On Fri, 2017-07-28 at 12:41 -0400, Colin Walters wrote: > I'm opposed to switching the meaning of `/usr/bin/python` for AH > anytime soon.  It's just going to break stuff, and to me the gain is > quite > low. One of Fedora's stated goals is to remain close to the upstream. Upstream Python is going

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017, at 12:16 PM, Miro Hrončok wrote: > It's up to the maintainers of Atomic Host to decide what's there. I > don't see how that relates to this thread. We have never said anything > about what is supposed to be or not to be in the Atomic Host. I'm opposed to switching the mean

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 28 July 2017 at 11:42, Miro Hrončok wrote: > On 28.7.2017 16:25, John Dennis wrote: > >> I made this comment previously but because I think it's important I'm >> going to repeat it. >> > > Yes, we hear you. > > Fedora's Python version migration needs to be coordinated with RHEL. >> > > It is.

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 28 July 2017 at 08:29, Nick Coghlan wrote: > On 28 July 2017 at 20:48, Colin Walters wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 27, 2017, at 12:07 PM, Miro Hrončok wrote: > > > >> * Switch /usr/bin/python to Python 3 in cooperation with Python > upstream. > > > > That again? That really seems like a nonstarte

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 28.7.2017 17:51, Colin Walters wrote: On Fri, Jul 28, 2017, at 11:34 AM, Miro Hrončok wrote: The change has to start somewhere and even though I cannot really speak about RHEL, I would think that changing it in Fedora first makes more sense. There hasn't been a single "Fedora" since we la

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017, at 11:34 AM, Miro Hrončok wrote: > The change has to > start somewhere and even though I cannot really speak about RHEL, > I would think that changing it in Fedora first makes more sense. There hasn't been a single "Fedora" since we landed the editions, although that's som

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 28.7.2017 16:25, John Dennis wrote: I made this comment previously but because I think it's important I'm going to repeat it. Yes, we hear you. Fedora's Python version migration needs to be coordinated with RHEL. It is. However it is hard to coordinate a future change with RHEL7 that is

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 28.7.2017 16:17, Colin Walters wrote: On Fri, Jul 28, 2017, at 07:47 AM, Peter Robinson wrote: On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:48 AM, Colin Walters wrote: On Thu, Jul 27, 2017, at 12:07 PM, Miro Hrončok wrote: * Switch /usr/bin/python to Python 3 in cooperation with Python upstream. Tha

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 28.7.2017 14:29, Brian Exelbierd wrote: On Fri, Jul 28, 2017, at 12:48 PM, Colin Walters wrote: On Thu, Jul 27, 2017, at 12:07 PM, Miro Hrončok wrote: * Switch /usr/bin/python to Python 3 in cooperation with Python upstream. That again? That really seems like a nonstarter; previous di

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 28.7.2017 12:48, Colin Walters wrote: On Thu, Jul 27, 2017, at 12:07 PM, Miro Hrončok wrote: * Switch /usr/bin/python to Python 3 in cooperation with Python upstream. That again? Seems like a never ending story, right? :( > That really seems like a nonstarter; previous> discussion

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 28.7.2017 12:01, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 09:49:42AM +0200, Miro Hrončok wrote: On 27.7.2017 19:15, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: Do you think it'd be possible to script the python-foo to python2-foo renaming? May be possible but given the variety in

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 28.7.2017 09:51, Nick Coghlan wrote: On 28 July 2017 at 03:15, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: Do you think it'd be possible to script the python-foo to python2-foo renaming? If yes, then maybe it'd make sense to just get some pps to do it in rawhide now and get the "easy" part done with?

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 29 July 2017 at 00:25, John Dennis wrote: > I made this comment previously but because I think it's important I'm going > to repeat it. > > Fedora's Python version migration needs to be coordinated with RHEL. > > Yes I know Fedora is independent of both Red Hat and RHEL but the real world > rea

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

I made this comment previously but because I think it's important I'm going to repeat it. Fedora's Python version migration needs to be coordinated with RHEL. Yes I know Fedora is independent of both Red Hat and RHEL but the real world reality is spec files are shared between both. At the mome

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017, at 07:47 AM, Peter Robinson wrote: > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:48 AM, Colin Walters wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 27, 2017, at 12:07 PM, Miro Hrončok wrote: > > > >> * Switch /usr/bin/python to Python 3 in cooperation with Python upstream. > > > > That again? That really seems

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 28 July 2017 at 22:29, Brian Exelbierd wrote: > On Fri, Jul 28, 2017, at 12:48 PM, Colin Walters wrote: >> Plus just breaking everyone's random old scripts. Now, I >> don't know if this has been discussed upstream > > This is a statement born of ignorance, but ... > > Would it be possible to s

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 07/28/2017 11:01 AM, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > So instead of taking this slowly, I'd rather go through FESCo > and public announcement on fedora-devel, and then just apply the change > to as many packages as possible at once. I concur. I think this is one of the cases where we should

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 28 July 2017 at 20:48, Colin Walters wrote: > On Thu, Jul 27, 2017, at 12:07 PM, Miro Hrončok wrote: > >> * Switch /usr/bin/python to Python 3 in cooperation with Python upstream. > > That again? That really seems like a nonstarter; previous > discussion specifically around Atomic Host + Ans

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017, at 12:48 PM, Colin Walters wrote: > On Thu, Jul 27, 2017, at 12:07 PM, Miro Hrončok wrote: > > > * Switch /usr/bin/python to Python 3 in cooperation with Python upstream. > > That again? That really seems like a nonstarter; previous > discussion specifically around Atomic

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 11:48 AM, Colin Walters wrote: > On Thu, Jul 27, 2017, at 12:07 PM, Miro Hrončok wrote: > >> * Switch /usr/bin/python to Python 3 in cooperation with Python upstream. > > That again? That really seems like a nonstarter; previous > discussion specifically around Atomic Ho

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On Thu, Jul 27, 2017, at 12:07 PM, Miro Hrončok wrote: > * Switch /usr/bin/python to Python 3 in cooperation with Python upstream. That again? That really seems like a nonstarter; previous discussion specifically around Atomic Host + Ansible: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On Fri, Jul 28, 2017 at 09:49:42AM +0200, Miro Hrončok wrote: > On 27.7.2017 19:15, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > >Do you think it'd be possible to script the python-foo to python2-foo > >renaming? > > May be possible but given the variety in the spec files, we didn't > think it would be ea

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 28 July 2017 at 03:15, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > Do you think it'd be possible to script the python-foo to python2-foo > renaming? If yes, then maybe it'd make sense to just get some pps to > do it in rawhide now and get the "easy" part done with? That should > significantly cut down

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

On 27.7.2017 19:15, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: Do you think it'd be possible to script the python-foo to python2-foo renaming? May be possible but given the variety in the spec files, we didn't think it would be easy. IMHO taking a bunch of provenpackagers and updating the packages ma

Re: Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

Do you think it'd be possible to script the python-foo to python2-foo renaming? If yes, then maybe it'd make sense to just get some pps to do it in rawhide now and get the "easy" part done with? That should significantly cut down on the number of misnamed packages and let packagers spend their time

Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3

Hello fellow Fedora contributors, We've created a page on Fedora wiki [1] that's something like a Change proposal*. The document is called "Finalizing Fedora's Switch to Python 3" and it describes steps needed in order to: * Switch /usr/bin/python to Python 3 i