On 12/08/2011 04:15 AM, Don wrote:
On 08.12.2011 05:46, bcs wrote:
On 12/06/2011 11:50 PM, Don wrote:
He's talking about system languages. A system language has to have a
close relationship to the architecture.
By contrast, if you don't care about performance, it's easy -- just use
BigInts fo
On 12/8/11 4:47 AM, Don wrote:
The Loitsch paper is very interesting, it presents a simple very fast
method which works in 99.5% of cases. Then, you fall back to the simple
slow method for the remaining 0.5%. The slow case is rare enough that
it's not worth optimizing it.
I think a D implementa
On 08.12.2011 05:46, bcs wrote:
On 12/06/2011 11:50 PM, Don wrote:
He's talking about system languages. A system language has to have a
close relationship to the architecture.
By contrast, if you don't care about performance, it's easy -- just use
BigInts for everything. Problem solved.
Looks
On 06.12.2011 08:20, Walter Bright wrote:
On 12/5/2011 10:52 PM, Don wrote:
On 06.12.2011 05:15, Walter Bright wrote:
On 12/5/2011 8:10 PM, bearophile wrote:
This is not about integers but yeah, I'd like the better str<-> float
conversions of Python in D too.
Do you have any test data that t
On 12/06/2011 11:50 PM, Don wrote:
He's talking about system languages. A system language has to have a
close relationship to the architecture.
By contrast, if you don't care about performance, it's easy -- just use
BigInts for everything. Problem solved.
Looks like I have to put it more blunt
On 12/7/2011 2:46 AM, bearophile wrote:
Today some online games are managing real money of the players. You don't
want to use raw integers to manage those important numbers :-)
Banks have been using computer programs to handle money forever, so has every
piece of accounting software. I.e. it's
On 12/07/2011 11:41 AM, bearophile wrote:
[...] As it usually happens in complex systems, there are far more ways for
that system to not work than to work. [...]
Maybe we should exclusively study the ways for for the system to work,
as that seems to be less complex.
On 12/07/2011 11:46 AM, bearophile wrote:
Manu:
but making standard ints compromise basic hardware implementation just won't
fly.<
Ada language does those things, and it's used to fly planes :-) So maybe it
will fly.
Maybe. Ada in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kYUrqdUyEpI
Toda
Manu:
> but making standard ints compromise basic hardware implementation just won't
> fly.<
Ada language does those things, and it's used to fly planes :-) So maybe it
will fly.
Today some online games are managing real money of the players. You don't want
to use raw integers to manage those
Kagamin:
>I played a game, where experience counter was int32, it wasn't meant to
>overflow during normal play, but it allowed console commands, which could be a
>lot of fun, so I made xp overflow to negative values, it didn't make any
>trouble, just in the case it used checked arithmetic, it w
Don Wrote:
> On 07.12.2011 05:11, bcs wrote:
> > On 12/05/2011 11:20 PM, Don wrote:
> >> On 06.12.2011 05:21, bcs wrote:
> >>> On 12/05/2011 08:37 AM, Don wrote:
> On 05.12.2011 14:31, bearophile wrote:
> > Found through Reddit, two blog posts about how integers should behave
> > in s
On 2011-Dec-05 18:30:54+00:00, bearophile wrote:
Manu:
but I don't believe I'm alone.. the rest
of the gamedev community will find D soon enough if the language gets it
right...
I think games are one of the most important short-term purposes of D, despite I
think D was not explicitly designed
On 07.12.2011 05:11, bcs wrote:
On 12/05/2011 11:20 PM, Don wrote:
On 06.12.2011 05:21, bcs wrote:
On 12/05/2011 08:37 AM, Don wrote:
On 05.12.2011 14:31, bearophile wrote:
Found through Reddit, two blog posts about how integers should behave
in system languages (with hardware support):
http
On 12/05/2011 11:20 PM, Don wrote:
On 06.12.2011 05:21, bcs wrote:
On 12/05/2011 08:37 AM, Don wrote:
On 05.12.2011 14:31, bearophile wrote:
Found through Reddit, two blog posts about how integers should behave
in system languages (with hardware support):
http://blog.regehr.org/archives/641
h
On 12/06/2011 09:49 AM, Walter Bright wrote:
On 12/6/2011 9:14 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
Translating dtoa.c to D and making sure it works during compilation
sounds like
a great project. People who want to help D in any way, please take
notice :o).
Sadly, despite dtoa.c's wide use, there d
On Wed, 07 Dec 2011 04:11:40 +1100, Andrei Alexandrescu
wrote:
On 12/6/11 1:16 AM, Walter Bright wrote:
On 12/5/2011 8:48 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
On 12/5/11 10:15 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
On 12/5/2011 8:10 PM, bearophile wrote:
This is not about integers but yeah, I'd like the bett
On 12/6/11 6:14 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
On 12/6/11 1:20 AM, Walter Bright wrote:
(Python's implementation currently uses David Gay's dtoa.c)
Translating dtoa.c to D and making sure it works during compilation
sounds like a great project. People who want to help D in any way,
please take
On 12/6/2011 9:11 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
On 12/6/11 1:16 AM, Walter Bright wrote:
On 12/5/2011 8:48 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
On 12/5/11 10:15 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
Darn, licensing problems:
"Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright
notice, this list o
On 12/6/2011 9:14 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
Translating dtoa.c to D and making sure it works during compilation sounds like
a great project. People who want to help D in any way, please take notice :o).
Sadly, despite dtoa.c's wide use, there doesn't appear to be a test suite for
it. I su
On 12/6/11 1:16 AM, Walter Bright wrote:
On 12/5/2011 8:48 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
On 12/5/11 10:15 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
On 12/5/2011 8:10 PM, bearophile wrote:
This is not about integers but yeah, I'd like the better str<-> float
conversions of Python in D too.
Do you have any te
On 12/6/11 1:20 AM, Walter Bright wrote:
On 12/5/2011 10:52 PM, Don wrote:
On 06.12.2011 05:15, Walter Bright wrote:
On 12/5/2011 8:10 PM, bearophile wrote:
This is not about integers but yeah, I'd like the better str<-> float
conversions of Python in D too.
Do you have any test data that th
Cheers, I'll do that! I've still had nothing but trouble getting cygwin to
build the mips toolchain we were experimenting with. I don't know enough
about GCC and making it work >_<.
Although ideally a binary distribution would probably want to be
mingw/msys based.
On 6 December 2011 14:23, Iain Bu
On 6 December 2011 10:27, Manu wrote:
>> Manu:
>>
>> > but I don't believe I'm alone.. the rest
>> > of the gamedev community will find D soon enough if the language gets it
>> > right...
>>
>> I think games are one of the most important short-term purposes of D,
>> despite I think D was not expli
>
> Manu:
>
> > but I don't believe I'm alone.. the rest
> > of the gamedev community will find D soon enough if the language gets it
> > right...
>
> I think games are one of the most important short-term purposes of D,
> despite I think D was not explicitly designed to write games.
>
I agree, it
On 06.12.2011 05:21, bcs wrote:
On 12/05/2011 08:37 AM, Don wrote:
On 05.12.2011 14:31, bearophile wrote:
Found through Reddit, two blog posts about how integers should behave
in system languages (with hardware support):
http://blog.regehr.org/archives/641
http://blog.regehr.org/archives/642
On 12/5/2011 10:52 PM, Don wrote:
On 06.12.2011 05:15, Walter Bright wrote:
On 12/5/2011 8:10 PM, bearophile wrote:
This is not about integers but yeah, I'd like the better str<-> float
conversions of Python in D too.
Do you have any test data that they actually are better in Python (apart
fr
On 12/5/2011 8:48 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
On 12/5/11 10:15 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
On 12/5/2011 8:10 PM, bearophile wrote:
This is not about integers but yeah, I'd like the better str<-> float
conversions of Python in D too.
Do you have any test data that they actually are better in P
On 12/5/2011 8:48 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
On 12/5/11 10:15 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
On 12/5/2011 8:10 PM, bearophile wrote:
This is not about integers but yeah, I'd like the better str<-> float
conversions of Python in D too.
Do you have any test data that they actually are better in P
On 06.12.2011 05:15, Walter Bright wrote:
On 12/5/2011 8:10 PM, bearophile wrote:
This is not about integers but yeah, I'd like the better str<-> float
conversions of Python in D too.
Do you have any test data that they actually are better in Python (apart
from just being better specified)?
On 12/5/11 9:57 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
http://www.cs.washington.edu/education/courses/cse590p/590k_02au/print-fp.pdf
http://www.cs.washington.edu/education/courses/cse590p/590k_02au/read-fp.pdf
In fact there's more recent work on that, see http://goo.gl/H6VZD. It's
been on reddit, too: http
On 12/5/11 10:15 PM, Walter Bright wrote:
On 12/5/2011 8:10 PM, bearophile wrote:
This is not about integers but yeah, I'd like the better str<-> float
conversions of Python in D too.
Do you have any test data that they actually are better in Python (apart
from just being better specified)?
On 12/05/2011 01:37 PM, Don wrote:
On 05.12.2011 18:36, bearophile wrote:
Manu:
Also, contrary to his claim, I find that wrapping is usually what I
DO want in this case..
It's super rare that I write any code that pushes the limits of an int
(unless we're talking 8-16 bit, see my range+saturat
On 12/05/2011 08:37 AM, Don wrote:
On 05.12.2011 14:31, bearophile wrote:
Found through Reddit, two blog posts about how integers should behave
in system languages (with hardware support):
http://blog.regehr.org/archives/641
http://blog.regehr.org/archives/642
Bye,
bearophile
Not very convin
On 12/5/2011 8:10 PM, bearophile wrote:
This is not about integers but yeah, I'd like the better str<-> float
conversions of Python in D too.
Do you have any test data that they actually are better in Python (apart from
just being better specified)?
Walter:
> there's something else in Python 3
> That I'd love to have in C++, namely a guarantee that:
This is not about integers but yeah, I'd like the better str <-> float
conversions of Python in D too.
Bye,
bearophile
On 12/05/2011 05:31 AM, bearophile wrote:
Found through Reddit, two blog posts about how integers should behave in system
languages (with hardware support):
http://blog.regehr.org/archives/641
http://blog.regehr.org/archives/642
I've been following that guy for a while now. He's doing some RE
On 12/5/2011 1:37 PM, Don wrote:
The "overflow12.pdf" paper on that site shows statistics that overflow is very
often intentional. It's strong evidence that you *cannot* make signed overflow
an error. Even if you could do it with zero complexity and zero performance
impact, it would be wrong.
H
Don:
> The "overflow12.pdf" paper on that site shows statistics that overflow
> is very often intentional.
This is expected, the C/C++ programmers are using the semantics of their
language. But it's just because they are using a language with a bad integer
semantics.
A better designed language
Don:
> The "overflow12.pdf" paper on that site shows statistics that overflow
> is very often intentional.
In C/C++ code, but we are developing D, a new language that hopes to fix some
of the mistakes of languages invented lot of time ago.
> It's strong evidence that you *cannot* make signed
On 05.12.2011 18:36, bearophile wrote:
Manu:
Also, contrary to his claim, I find that wrapping is usually what I
DO want in this case..
It's super rare that I write any code that pushes the limits of an int
(unless we're talking 8-16 bit, see my range+saturation comment before),
and when I do w
On 05-12-2011 20:34, Paulo Pinto wrote:
Am 05.12.2011 19:04, schrieb Manu:
Manu:
> Also, contrary to his claim, I find that wrapping is usually what I
> DO want in this case..
> It's super rare that I write any code that pushes the limits of
an int
> (unless we're talking 8-16 bit, see my range
Am 05.12.2011 19:04, schrieb Manu:
Manu:
> Also, contrary to his claim, I find that wrapping is usually what I
> DO want in this case..
> It's super rare that I write any code that pushes the limits of
an int
> (unless we're talking 8-16 bit, see my range+saturation c
On 12/5/2011 5:31 AM, bearophile wrote:
Found through Reddit, two blog posts about how integers should behave in
system languages (with hardware support):
http://blog.regehr.org/archives/641 http://blog.regehr.org/archives/642
Bye, bearophile
Lotsa good comments on HN:
http://news.ycombinato
Manu:
> but I don't believe I'm alone.. the rest
> of the gamedev community will find D soon enough if the language gets it
> right...
I think games are one of the most important short-term purposes of D, despite I
think D was not explicitly designed to write games.
> If you're suggesting the
>
> Manu:
>
> > Also, contrary to his claim, I find that wrapping is usually what I
> > DO want in this case..
> > It's super rare that I write any code that pushes the limits of an int
> > (unless we're talking 8-16 bit, see my range+saturation comment before),
> > and when I do write code that pu
Manu:
> Also, contrary to his claim, I find that wrapping is usually what I
> DO want in this case..
> It's super rare that I write any code that pushes the limits of an int
> (unless we're talking 8-16 bit, see my range+saturation comment before),
> and when I do write code that pushes the range
On 12/05/2011 06:25 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
On 12/5/11 10:37 AM, Don wrote:
On 05.12.2011 14:31, bearophile wrote:
Found through Reddit, two blog posts about how integers should behave
in system languages (with hardware support):
http://blog.regehr.org/archives/641
http://blog.regehr.or
Andrei Alexandrescu:
> Agreed. One thought that comes to mind is using the small int
> optimization for BigInt, i.e. use no dynamic allocation and built-in
> operations whenever possible if the value is small enough. Does BigInt
> currently do that?
Both the small int optimization (32 or 64 bi
On 12/5/11 10:37 AM, Don wrote:
On 05.12.2011 14:31, bearophile wrote:
Found through Reddit, two blog posts about how integers should behave
in system languages (with hardware support):
http://blog.regehr.org/archives/641
http://blog.regehr.org/archives/642
Bye,
bearophile
Not very convincin
I can agree that in some circumstances, a ranged and saturated integer mode
would be REALLY handy (colours, sound samples), but I can't buy in with the
whole trapping overflows and stuff... most architectures will require
explicit checking of the overflow bit after every operation to support
this.
On 05.12.2011 14:31, bearophile wrote:
Found through Reddit, two blog posts about how integers should behave in system
languages (with hardware support):
http://blog.regehr.org/archives/641
http://blog.regehr.org/archives/642
Bye,
bearophile
Not very convincing, since he proposes a change to
Found through Reddit, two blog posts about how integers should behave in system
languages (with hardware support):
http://blog.regehr.org/archives/641
http://blog.regehr.org/archives/642
Bye,
bearophile
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