Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On 11.07.2017 23:33, Rowland Penny wrote: Yes, there is 'with-systemd' and 'without-systemd', not that either are really needed, the systemd parts will only be built if the systemd development libs are installed. It should be an explicit op-in (in general, I really dislike any autodetect magi

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On 11.07.2017 23:23, Adam Borowski wrote: Uhm, but what's the point in _this_? Samba does the right thing: builds systemdD support if and only if its configure script detected the headers (which can usually also be forced by --enable-foo or --disable-foo). #1: just a little hack while waiting

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On 13/07/17 00:56, Dragan FOSS wrote: On 07/12/2017 07:18 AM, Brad Campbell wrote: Did I miss something Yes.. ;) When I wrote "recommends", and your interpretation of this word is "mandating", I have no choice but to think that your reading system is, to put it mildly, funny :) Nope. Not at

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On 07/12/2017 07:18 AM, Brad Campbell wrote: Did I miss something Yes.. ;) When I wrote "recommends", and your interpretation of this word is "mandating", I have no choice but to think that your reading system is, to put it mildly, funny :) Cheers, Dragan ___

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

Le 11/07/2017 à 20:35, Jamey Fletcher a écrit : I no longer feel like I can trust "init" https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577 This is getting scary - last time I remember something along these lines, something called git seemed to be the end result. And I think git has taken over the world from e

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

Am 2017-07-12 00:00, schrieb Dragan FOSS: Btw...Linux Is Not UniX ;) Then replace "unix" in my post with "un*x" ;-) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unix-like Jochen ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/l

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On 12/07/17 02:35, Dragan FOSS wrote: On 07/11/2017 05:28 PM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote: make it crystal clear: fuck off the upstream. Do you want to say that devuan users do not need any upstream that recommends systemd? For example, Postgresql? *** With PostgreSQL 9.6 or newer,

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 20:35:45 +0200 Dragan FOSS wrote: > On 07/11/2017 05:28 PM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote: > > make it crystal clear: fuck off the > > upstream. > > Do you want to say that devuan users do not need any upstream that > recommends systemd? > For example, Postgresql?

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 11:23:59PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: > On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 05:28:39PM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult > wrote: > > To be more practical: I'd suggest spinning off a (distro agnostic) > > non-systemd maintenance project. We'll collect repos w/ depotterization >

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On 07/11/2017 09:11 PM, Joachim Fahrner wrote: And what recommends Postgresql for BSD systems? "Don't install it"? Free unix software should run on ANY unix system, not only Poetteringware. I never tried on BSD, but on UNIX Pg runs fine :) https://www.postgresql.org/download/solaris/ Btw...

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 23:23:59 +0200 Adam Borowski wrote: > On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 05:28:39PM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT > consult wrote: > > To be more practical: I'd suggest spinning off a (distro agnostic) > > non-systemd maintenance project. We'll collect repos w/ > > depotterization patc

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 05:28:39PM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote: > To be more practical: I'd suggest spinning off a (distro agnostic) > non-systemd maintenance project. We'll collect repos w/ depotterization > patches for all packages (and upstream releases) we're interested in. >

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

Am 2017-07-11 20:35, schrieb Dragan FOSS: Do you want to say that devuan users do not need any upstream that recommends systemd? For example, Postgresql? *** With PostgreSQL 9.6 or newer, it is recommended to build with --with-systemd and use the unit file shown in the documentation... *** https:

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

> I no longer feel like I can > trust "init" > https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577 This is getting scary - last time I remember something along these lines, something called git seemed to be the end result. And I think git has taken over the world from emacs!

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On 07/11/2017 05:28 PM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote: make it crystal clear: fuck off the upstream. Do you want to say that devuan users do not need any upstream that recommends systemd? For example, Postgresql? *** With PostgreSQL 9.6 or newer, it is recommended to build with --wi

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On 11.07.2017 15:02, Simon Hobson wrote: But it clear from reading comments on any article mentioning > systemd that a great many people really have no idea why > they should care. Just pointing out some fundamental problems (especially on bug or problem reports) and let them learn by own expe

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On Tue, Jul 11, 2017 at 02:10:04PM +0200, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote: > On 11.07.2017 13:55, Simon Hobson wrote: > > > >3) Explain (in rational, technical, non-political) terms why people > >should care that there is a choice - and why we think they would be > >wise to take it. >

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On Tue, 11 Jul 2017 14:02:47 +0100, Simon wrote in message <98028782-f385-412e-aeab-2edf14663...@thehobsons.co.uk>: > "Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult" wrote: > > >> 3) Explain (in rational, technical, non-political) terms why > >> people should care that there is a choice - and why we think t

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

Quote: "gnome 3 is crap" Nah, Gnome 3 is a The Brand that must be shoved down people's throats. Systemd, is the 'invisible' 'string puller' that lurks behind the scenes. -- If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough. (Albert Einstein) If you cannot make abstructions abou

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

gnome 3 is crap, need I say more? On 07/11/2017 07:39 AM, Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult wrote: > On 10.07.2017 23:10, Steve Litt wrote: > >> Remember, we're fighting a huge and well funded opponent, possessing >> the money to throw at programmers to keep the systemd mess running, as >> well as

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

"Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult" wrote: >> 3) Explain (in rational, technical, non-political) terms why people should >> care that there is a choice - and why we think they would be wise to take it. > > I wouldn't waste time on that. They have to learn by themselves - > preaching doesn't help

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On 7/11/17 7:55 AM, Simon Hobson wrote: "Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult" wrote: We don't need to fight anything. Just concentrate on the stuff *we* need (seriously, does anybobdy here need gnome3 ?) and patch out the crap when neccessary. And just not caring about that lennartware crap at

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On 11.07.2017 13:55, Simon Hobson wrote: There are (IMO) three things needed : > 1) Have an alternative - ie Devuan. And there're other non-systemd-Distros out there. Just collaborate with them and ignore the others. (we could also set up some tiny patch- sending bots that penetrate nasty ups

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

"Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult" wrote: > We don't need to fight anything. Just concentrate on the stuff *we* > need (seriously, does anybobdy here need gnome3 ?) and patch out the > crap when neccessary. > > And just not caring about that lennartware crap at all. Not even wasting > time w/ de

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On 10.07.2017 23:10, Steve Litt wrote: Remember, we're fighting a huge and well funded opponent, possessing the money to throw at programmers to keep the systemd mess running, as well as money for publicity to counter common sense with neverending bulldroppings. Seen in that context, what we've

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

...on Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 05:33:26PM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote: > There's a point at which this all becomes unstoppable, unless some equally > well-placed & influential folks start pushing back VERY hard. That would certainly help, but I also think that it's much more important that someone

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 05:34:29PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote: [cut] > > So please, let's stop making fouls of ourselves. The problem is not > > systemd being or not being free software, rather its creators and > > sponsors being or not being well-intentioned towards the free software > > communi

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

Quoting Hendrik Boom (hend...@topoi.pooq.com): > I believe the Google slogan was "Don't be evil." "First, do no harm" is > from the English translaation of the Hippocratic Oath. Strictly speaking, that's from 17th C. Latin, really. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primum_non_nocere In general, th

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

* On 2017 10 Jul 20:41 -0500, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 05:34:29PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote: > I believe the Google slogan was "Don't be evil." "First, do no harm" is > from the English translaation of the Hippocratic Oath. Sigh. Just like Abe Lincoln said, "The problem w

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 05:34:29PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote: > > A [L]GPL'ed worm or virus is Free Software, but is it acceptable > software? Of course, if we're only concerned about its licensing, we > won't have a care what it does to user's computers or data. > > It has always seemed to me

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 02:53:47PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: > Well, there _was_ the xemacs vs. GNU emacs matter. > > (I teased Richard at one point over dinner by saying 'I hope you don't > mind that I'm a vi user. But he had a beautiful comeback; 'We of the > Church of Emacs do not consider use

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

* On 2017 10 Jul 14:24 -0500, KatolaZ wrote: > On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 01:53:09PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote: > > Unfortunately, that seems to be the case. Just because the code is GPL, > > it seems fine by him. > > Sorry, but I really don't see what RMS should do here. He has focussed > his enti

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org): > Sorry, but I really don't see what RMS should do here. He has focussed > his entire life on the fundamental problem of making sure that > software remains free, as in speech, and he has always (and > rightfully, IMHO) avoided to intervene in any technical

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On 7/10/17 4:37 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote: On 2017-07-10 15:25, Miles Fidelman wrote: We are the community. We need to act for ourselves. So far, that's not working all that well. Miles Fidelman Miles, I just have to ask If you think think it's not working too well who is to blame?

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 16:25:27 -0400 Miles Fidelman wrote: > On 7/10/17 4:17 PM, KatolaZ wrote: [snip] > > We are the community. We need to act for ourselves. > > > > > So far, that's not working all that well. > > Miles Fidelman I'm not sure of that, Miles. The proponents of systemd have left

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On 07/10/2017 03:23 PM, KatolaZ wrote: > On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 01:53:09PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote: >> * On 2017 10 Jul 12:45 -0500, mdn wrote: >>> Le 10/07/2017 19:29, zap a écrit : I hope linus does something about it. I Really wish stallman would take this seriously as a security

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On 2017-07-10 15:25, Miles Fidelman wrote: We are the community. We need to act for ourselves. So far, that's not working all that well. Miles Fidelman Miles, I just have to ask If you think think it's not working too well who is to blame? Please answer this question . . . what you ha

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On 7/10/17 4:17 PM, KatolaZ wrote: On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 04:07:48PM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote: [cut] Systemd may be free, but it's approach to agglomerating function after function, and becoming a requirement for more and more other software - is an affront to software freedom. That MIGH

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 04:07:48PM -0400, Miles Fidelman wrote: [cut] > > Systemd may be free, but it's approach to agglomerating function after > function, and becoming a requirement for more and more other software - is > an affront to software freedom. That MIGHT be, or become, of interest &

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

copy&paste of one of Teodore Tso comments: So I can't speak for Linus, but the reason why I can't trust systemd is > that I don't believe that the systemd maintainers have "good taste" --- as > used by Linus in his TED talk: ted.com - The mind behind Linux >

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

I think it's clear he's talking about systemd when he says: "You all presumably know why." Plus, there is some interesting comments from Teodore Tso talking about systemd in G+ https://plus.google.com/+TheodoreTso/posts/EJrEuxjR65J On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 4:39 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > What di

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

slight addition at the end On 7/10/17 4:07 PM, Miles Fidelman wrote: On 7/10/17 3:23 PM, KatolaZ wrote: On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 01:53:09PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote: * On 2017 10 Jul 12:45 -0500, mdn wrote: Le 10/07/2017 19:29, zap a écrit : I hope linus does something about it. I Really w

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On 7/10/17 3:23 PM, KatolaZ wrote: On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 01:53:09PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote: * On 2017 10 Jul 12:45 -0500, mdn wrote: Le 10/07/2017 19:29, zap a écrit : I hope linus does something about it. I Really wish stallman would take this seriously as a security risk. I too but R

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 03:39:33PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > What did Linux mean by "init"? A lot of people use the word "init" > synonomously with sysvinit, in which case this would appear to be bad > news for us. On the other hand, perhaps he use "init" to mean the init > system, regardless of b

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

What did Linux mean by "init"? A lot of people use the word "init" synonomously with sysvinit, in which case this would appear to be bad news for us. On the other hand, perhaps he use "init" to mean the init system, regardless of brand. I can't tell from context. SteveT On Mon, 10 Jul 2017 08:57

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 01:53:09PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote: > * On 2017 10 Jul 12:45 -0500, mdn wrote: > > Le 10/07/2017 19:29, zap a écrit : > > > I hope linus does something about it. > > As for Linus, I think he'll only do something if he is given an > ultimatum of supporting only SD's flav

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 01:53:09PM -0500, Nate Bargmann wrote: > * On 2017 10 Jul 12:45 -0500, mdn wrote: > > Le 10/07/2017 19:29, zap a écrit : > > > I hope linus does something about it. I Really wish stallman would take > > > this seriously as a security risk. > > I too but RMS just care about l

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

* On 2017 10 Jul 12:45 -0500, mdn wrote: > Le 10/07/2017 19:29, zap a écrit : > > I hope linus does something about it. I Really wish stallman would take > > this seriously as a security risk. > I too but RMS just care about licensing and a bit community relations > atm (from what I can observe).

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

Le 10/07/2017 19:29, zap a écrit : > I hope linus does something about it. I Really wish stallman would take > this seriously as a security risk. I too but RMS just care about licensing and a bit community relations atm (from what I can observe). He's been out of tech for a while. > > > On 07/10/

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

Quoting zap (calmst...@posteo.de): > I hope linus does something about it. I Really wish stallman would take > this seriously as a security risk. Richard getting involved with security matters is always good for... food for thought. [...] Imagine the headlines: Kofi Anan frees Richard Stal

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

I hope linus does something about it. I Really wish stallman would take this seriously as a security risk. On 07/10/2017 12:46 PM, Vincent Bentley wrote: > Perhaps Linus will be brave enough to stand up to RedHat and request > that they fork Linux 4.x into SystemD so that Linux 5.0 will use SysV

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

Perhaps Linus will be brave enough to stand up to RedHat and request that they fork Linux 4.x into SystemD so that Linux 5.0 will use SysV as the reference init. SystemD will eventually replace the Linux kernel so why not just fork it now and take their followers with them. On 10/07/17 16:57, Bruc

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

Indeed. On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 12:57 PM, Bruce Perens wrote: > The entire paragraph is even more damning: > > And yes, a large part of this may be that I no longer feel like I can > trust "init" to do the sane thing. You all presumably know why. > > > On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 7:20 AM, Emiliano M

Re: [DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

The entire paragraph is even more damning: And yes, a large part of this may be that I no longer feel like I can trust "init" to do the sane thing. You all presumably know why. On Mon, Jul 10, 2017 at 7:20 AM, Emiliano Marini wrote: > I no longer feel like I can > trust "init" > > > > https://

[DNG] Linus can no longer trust "init"

I no longer feel like I can trust "init" https://lkml.org/lkml/2017/7/6/577 ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng