Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 1:41 PM, Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > The linux trademark is owned and protected, I think they can't do with > linux whatever they want. I believe it's onwn by Mr Torvalds to prevent someone else from clobbering it (like SCO). I don't think he plans to actually leverage that

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

I use F-Droid with cyanogen and I am quite happy, the number and quality of apps is steadily increasing too. On Mar 30, 2015 2:49 PM, "John Morris" wrote: > On Sat, 2015-03-28 at 12:33 +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: > > BTW, I, like many others, find convenient to use e.g. Skype, and I > > would

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

Le 30/03/2015 15:10, Adam Borowski a écrit : On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 02:07:41PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: Le 30/03/2015 13:53, John Morris a écrit : Both the FSF and Debian claim to be the most 'Free.' This is not my understanding. Debian does not claim to be more free than GNU. They

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 02:07:41PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: > > Le 30/03/2015 13:53, John Morris a écrit : > > Both > >the FSF and Debian claim to be the most 'Free.' > > This is not my understanding. Debian does not claim to be more free > than > GNU. They just admit the reality that some

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Mon, Mar 30, 2015 at 02:07:41PM +0200, Didier Kryn wrote: > > Le 30/03/2015 13:53, John Morris a écrit : > > Both > >the FSF and Debian claim to be the most 'Free.' > > This is not my understanding. Debian does not claim to be more > free than GNU. They just admit the reality that some n

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Mon 30 March 2015 14:30:44 Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 30/03/2015 13:49, John Morris a écrit : > > Simple. Systemd is only the tip of the spear in what appears planned as > > a total reinvention of the OS. They aren't done yet. What happens when > > the next major component of that plan appears u

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

Le 30/03/2015 13:49, John Morris a écrit : Simple. Systemd is only the tip of the spear in what appears planned as a total reinvention of the OS. They aren't done yet. What happens when the next major component of that plan appears upstream is something that should be anticipated and planned

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

Le 30/03/2015 13:53, John Morris a écrit : Both the FSF and Debian claim to be the most 'Free.' This is not my understanding. Debian does not claim to be more free than GNU. They just admit the reality that some non-free softwares are usefull enough that they deserve to be put in thei

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Sat, 2015-03-28 at 10:49 -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > The very strict FSF interpretation is a useful extreme -- much like > the North Pole is for the idea of north, and absolute zero is for the > idea of cold. Now north is useful n our compasses, and cold is great > for beer (free or not),

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Sat, 2015-03-28 at 12:33 +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: > BTW, I, like many others, find convenient to use e.g. Skype, and I > would prefer to run it inside a container. > >Over there, Linux installers are > > Shareware. All of them. I'm not a priest of St. Ignucius but the idea > > of th

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 2:49 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > It would be nice to have a choice. That is what android does not > provide. I thought the NDK would allow you to bypass (most of) the sugarcoating. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://m

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Sat, Mar 28, 2015 at 12:33:34PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: > > Le 28/03/2015 05:53, John Morris a écrit : > >Trying to take the high moral ground and claim to be shooting for a > >stricter freedom is what leads to RMS and Debian unable to agree on > >which is the more 'Free.' Debian rejecting

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

Le 28/03/2015 05:53, John Morris a écrit : On Fri, 2015-03-27 at 16:37 +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: Hi John, When I wrote anti-freedom, I considered a stricter definition of freedom than GPL, beyond free access to the source and gratuitous redistribution, including e.g. the absence o

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Fri, 2015-03-27 at 16:37 +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: > Hi John, > > When I wrote anti-freedom, I considered a stricter definition of > freedom than GPL, beyond free access to the source and gratuitous > redistribution, including e.g. the absence of technical lock-in. I won't > argue

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 11:29:53PM +0100, marc wrote: > And maybe even: > > - minimising the size and dependency graph of the essential > system. I have had friends worry that the base Debian seems > to have been growing each year so that it doesn't fit onto > small/embedded systems anymore

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

Hi John, KatolaZ, (addressing both of these points, since they're related) > It looks to me like you're trying to work backwards for a definition of "Unix" that excludes systemd while retaining all the software that does not adhere to that design philosophy. I think that's a bad idea-- it doesn'

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

You wrote: > [lots of good points snipped] > > 1. For want of a better term, GNU/Linux. The original POSIX/UNIX > Operating System with Linux as the OS kernel, Glibc (usually) as the C > Library, a mix of BSD and GNU userland, the GNU toolchain and X for > workstations along with one of the many

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Fri, Mar 27, 2015 at 04:12:46PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > > > > Point 2 has problems as well, because sometimes a package contains > > several programs (the first example that comes to my mind is postfix, > > but you have thousands of other examples out there) which are > > orthogonal yet

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Fri, 27 Mar 2015 18:58:45 + KatolaZ wrote: > On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 06:53:54PM -0400, Jude Nelson wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > I took a stab at stating what "Unix software design philosophy" > > means earlier up the thread, but I'll reproduce it here for your > > convenience: > > > > ""

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Thu, Mar 26, 2015 at 06:53:54PM -0400, Jude Nelson wrote: [cut] > > I took a stab at stating what "Unix software design philosophy" means > earlier up the thread, but I'll reproduce it here for your convenience: > > """ > 0. A program is a file that contains executable data (e.g. a binary, a

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On 03/26/2015 06:53 PM, Jude Nelson wrote: Hi John, [...] I took a stab at stating what "Unix software design philosophy" means earlier up the thread, but I'll reproduce it here for your convenience: "Do one thing and do it well." It looks to me like you're trying to work backwards for a d

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

Hi Jude. Your 4 points are expliciting very clearly, I think, what mean DOTADIW, or simply Unix principles. I think that these principles, plus the decision method you give - always favor a Unix-wise solution when there is - make a good and simple policy. I think what people on this l

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

Might add that unix programs are configured by editing text files, often in /etc or $HOME, and have a certain tendency towards conceptual simplicity. If something can't be reasonably described in a man page, then that thing does not have the tao of unix. The original schism was multics/unix. U

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

Hi John, I think the general consensus right now is that Devuan prioritizes the inclusion of Free Software that adheres to the Unix software design philosophy. Like Debian, Devuan strives to be a Universal Operating System by giving users as much freedom as possible in the choice of what software

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Sat, 2015-03-21 at 17:04 +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: > However, the long term policy of Devuan can't be "We hate systemd > and Lennart Poetering". Instead Devuan should advertize the reasons to > reject software like systemd, in the form of a set of rules for > acceptability, in a sensib

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Mon, Mar 23, 2015 at 12:04:17PM +0100, Didier Kryn wrote: > > True. This description of the project contains already a lot of > the ideas we are shaking on the list. > > There are still concerns about the fact that some of the > software we use are big hairballs and enforce technical l

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

Le 21/03/2015 17:52, Go Linux a écrit : On Sat, 3/21/15, Miles Fidelman wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied? To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Saturday, March 21, 2015, 11:25 AM Didier Kryn wrote: We all agree that Devuan was born to be systemd

[Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied? {FW copy - was : Dng Digest, Vol 6, Issue 75 by mistake)

From: T.J. Duchene [mailto:t.j.duch...@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2015 2:25 AM To: dng@lists.dyne.org Subject: Re: Dng Digest, Vol 6, Issue 75 Hey Steve! "Do you understand what mailing list this is?" Yes. I do. I didn't start the discussion. I actually recommended tabling it

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 16:00:40 -0500 "T.J. Duchene" wrote: > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Didier Kryn [mailto:k...@in2p3.fr] > > Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 11:04 AM > > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > > Subject: Re: [Dng]

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

> On March 21, 2015 at 12:25 PM Miles Fidelman > wrote: > Perhaps it's time to add something along the lines of "the freedom to > install software without it taking over your machine" (obviously this > needs work, or we'd it would eliminate things like the kernel, file > system, etc.). > > Miles

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 04:31:31PM -0400, Hendrik Boom wrote: > That is, prioritizing rather than excluding. So we can still, for > example, keep the linux kernel. :) The kernel is replaceable. Don't forget about kfreebsd (ok, hurd's state is a bad joke). Of course, the pro-systemd party has

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

> -Original Message- > From: Didier Kryn [mailto:k...@in2p3.fr] > Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 11:04 AM > To: dng@lists.dyne.org > Subject: Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied? > > We all agree that Devuan was born to be systemd-free and

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 03:56:01PM -0400, Jude Nelson wrote: > I think what we're after is a way to accept/reject software based on a > well-defined set of acceptance criteria. It sounds like we're trying to > say that the mission statement of Devuan is something like "Devuan > prioritizes the inc

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

I think what we're after is a way to accept/reject software based on a well-defined set of acceptance criteria. It sounds like we're trying to say that the mission statement of Devuan is something like "Devuan prioritizes the inclusion of Free Software that follows the Unix software design philoso

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Sat, 21 Mar 2015 17:04:00 +0100 Didier Kryn wrote: > However, the long term policy of Devuan can't be "We hate > systemd and Lennart Poetering". Instead Devuan should advertize the > reasons to reject software like systemd, in the form of a set of > rules for acceptability, in a sensible

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Sat, 3/21/15, Miles Fidelman wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied? To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Saturday, March 21, 2015, 11:25 AM Didier Kryn wrote: > We all agree that Devuan was born to be systemd-free and this > looks like a sustainable g

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

Didier Kryn wrote: We all agree that Devuan was born to be systemd-free and this looks like a sustainable goal to begin with. But I understood this thread started with questioning the long term policy. For sure, if one wants systemd, this one should install Debian, or RH. Also, to all

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

We all agree that Devuan was born to be systemd-free and this looks like a sustainable goal to begin with. But I understood this thread started with questioning the long term policy. For sure, if one wants systemd, this one should install Debian, or RH. Also, to all of us, anybody tryi

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 03:33:20AM +0100, Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > On Fri 20 March 2015 22:09:20 Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > > for details on how all this works on apt level with the devuan overlay over > > debian, you rather ask nextime. > > Rather first look here: > https://git.devuan.org/dev

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Fri 20 March 2015 22:09:20 Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > for details on how all this works on apt level with the devuan overlay over > debian, you rather ask nextime. Rather first look here: https://git.devuan.org/devuan-infrastructure/amprolla/blob/master/README.md signature.asc Description: T

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Fri, 20 Mar 2015 21:43:46 +0100 Anto wrote: > > On 20/03/15 21:08, Steve Litt wrote: > > Anto, > > > > You're absolutely right. So let me modify my idea... > > > > If anybody *chooses* to integrate an app with any direct or indirect > > systemd dependencies, that person must put their package

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

-Original Message- > On Fri 20 March 2015 08:56:47 Go Linux wrote: > > I support this idea. Put all the systemd stuff in a 'quarantine' > > repo with the appropriate 'use at your own risk' caveats. > From: Steve Litt [mailto:sl...@troubleshooters.com] What would especially float my

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Fri 20 March 2015 18:08:51 Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 10:09:20PM +0100, Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > > for details on how all this works on apt level with the devuan overlay > > over > > debian, you rather ask nextime. My guess would be that all rogue stuff > > like > > systemd

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 10:09:20PM +0100, Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > > for details on how all this works on apt level with the devuan overlay over > debian, you rather ask nextime. My guess would be that all rogue stuff like > systemd simply doesn't show up in devuan's packages.gz, and thus any

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 9:09 PM, Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > My guess would be that all rogue stuff like > systemd simply doesn't show up in devuan's packages.gz, and thus any package > depending on it would run into unmet dependencies when trying to install it. Makes sense. __

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Fri 20 March 2015 16:08:24 Steve Litt wrote: > If anybody *chooses* to integrate an app with any direct or indirect > systemd dependencies, that person must put their package in the > "contaminated" or "quarantine" repository, It seems the discussion is a tad missing the point, since a) devuan

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 04:01:28PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > On Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:40:43 -1000 > Joel Roth wrote: > > > Steve Litt wrote: > > > What would especially float my boat, once there's a truly > > > depoetterized Devuan, is to have the package manager warn me at 160 > > > decibles if I

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On 20/03/15 21:08, Steve Litt wrote: Anto, You're absolutely right. So let me modify my idea... If anybody *chooses* to integrate an app with any direct or indirect systemd dependencies, that person must put their package in the "contaminated" or "quarantine" repository, and that person is res

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Fri, 20 Mar 2015 20:07:05 +0100 Anto wrote: > > On 20/03/15 16:56, Go Linux wrote: > > On Fri, 3/20/15, Didier Kryn wrote: > > > > Le 19/03/2015 21:15, Steve Litt a écrit : > >> If anyone want's Gnome for Devuan, let that be in a "contaminated" > >> repository (and yes, that's what I belie

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Fri, 20 Mar 2015 09:40:43 -1000 Joel Roth wrote: > Steve Litt wrote: > > What would especially float my boat, once there's a truly > > depoetterized Devuan, is to have the package manager warn me at 160 > > decibles if I decide to install something that pulls in any systemd > > code, because i

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

Steve Litt wrote: > What would especially float my boat, once there's a truly depoetterized > Devuan, is to have the package manager warn me at 160 decibles if I > decide to install something that pulls in any systemd code, because if > there's a way to run without systemd code, that's how I want t

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Fri, Mar 20, 2015 at 01:44:55PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > Let me give an analogy that's absolutely offtopic here, I use it only Not as off-topic as you might think. > as an analogy. Three years ago, I made a policy that no KDE library or > software would ever exist on any of Troubleshooter

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On 20/03/15 16:56, Go Linux wrote: On Fri, 3/20/15, Didier Kryn wrote: Le 19/03/2015 21:15, Steve Litt a écrit : If anyone want's Gnome for Devuan, let that be in a "contaminated" repository (and yes, that's what I believe it should be called), Hi steve. As discussed in anothe

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Fri, 20 Mar 2015 17:13:17 +0100 Joerg Reisenweber wrote: > On Fri 20 March 2015 08:56:47 Go Linux wrote: > > I support this idea. Put all the systemd stuff in a 'quarantine' > > repo with the appropriate 'use at your own risk' caveats. > > I'd like to suggest a more generic approach, based o

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Fri 20 March 2015 08:56:47 Go Linux wrote: > I support this idea. Put all the systemd stuff in a 'quarantine' repo with > the appropriate 'use at your own risk' caveats. I'd like to suggest a more generic approach, based on (quick shot suggestion to get refined) listing the number of direct a

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Fri, 3/20/15, Didier Kryn wrote: Subject: Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied? To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Friday, March 20, 2015, 10:48 AM Le 19/03/2015 21:15, Steve Litt a écrit : > If anyone want's Gnome for Devuan, let that be in a "contaminated&

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

Le 19/03/2015 21:15, Steve Litt a écrit : If anyone want's Gnome for Devuan, let that be in a "contaminated" repository (and yes, that's what I believe it should be called), Hi steve. As discussed in another thread, there are certainly other packages affected by the big-brother syndro

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Thu, 19 Mar 2015 09:35:43 +0100 Anto wrote: > What I am afraid of is that, along the line some powerful people in > Devuan will make a trade-off in using systemd components. For > instance, they decide to integrate a super-dupper package which > requires systemd components, e.g. for DE, which

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On 18/03/15 15:52, Steve Litt wrote: >From my Manjaro Experiments experience, I would be neither surprised nor dissapointed if the first beta release of Devuan had some remaining systemd'isms. It's a step, in the right direction, on the journey toward complete independence from all things syste

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On 18/03/15 19:31, Nextime wrote: Do NOT use apt.devuan.org, the devuan packages are on packages.devuan.org I don't think all packages are on packages.devuan.org yet as below. But please don't worry about that, as I perfectly understand that the work on this is still in progress. I brought th

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On March 18, 2015 6:29:37 PM WET, Joerg Reisenweber wrote: >On Wed 18 March 2015 19:07:09 Anto wrote: >> root@v01:~# apt-cache policy dbus >> dbus: >>Installed: 1.8.14-1.0nosystemd1 >>Candidate: 1.8.14-1.0nosystemd1 >>Package pin: 1.8.14-1.0nosystemd1 >>Version table: >> 1.8.

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Wed 18 March 2015 19:07:09 Anto wrote: > root@v01:~# apt-cache policy dbus > dbus: >Installed: 1.8.14-1.0nosystemd1 >Candidate: 1.8.14-1.0nosystemd1 >Package pin: 1.8.14-1.0nosystemd1 >Version table: > 1.8.16-1 990 > 110 http://ftp.debian.org/debian/ jessie/main i3

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On 18/03/15 15:47, Jude Nelson wrote: That's very interesting. Devuan's dbus shouldn't depend on libsystemd0 at all (it builds and runs without it); if it is pulling in libsystemd0 as a dependency, then there's a bug in our dbus package. Can you show me the output of: $ aptitude show dbus $

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On Tue, 17 Mar 2015 21:00:49 +0100 Anto wrote: > Will Devuan be really free from systemd and its components? Or will > there be trade-off being applied so that some of systemd components > will be used in Devuan? Of course, I can't answer authoritatively, because my only role in the project i

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

That's very interesting. Devuan's dbus shouldn't depend on libsystemd0 at all (it builds and runs without it); if it is pulling in libsystemd0 as a dependency, then there's a bug in our dbus package. Can you show me the output of: $ aptitude show dbus $ apt-cache rdepends dbus Also, if it is co

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

On 18/03/15 00:56, Jude Nelson wrote: Hi Anto, I think the plan is to make the installation of all systemd components optional. The packages in git.devuan.org that are cloned from Debian's sources have build flags set automatically to compile out systemd dependencies,

Re: [Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

Hi Anto, I think the plan is to make the installation of all systemd components optional. The packages in git.devuan.org that are cloned from Debian's sources have build flags set automatically to compile out systemd dependencies, for example. If you're wondering what's pulling in libsystemd0 in

[Dng] Devuan commitments - will trade-off be applied?

Hello Everybody, I know that Devuan is not even at the alpha release yet. So I don't have any intention at all here, to ask the nasty question about the release date. Everybody involved in Devuan development are already really busy, so it is really evil to ask that. Some questions came up in