Hello EDU-SIG,
CS enrollments seem to be dropping drastically everywhere. Many
factors probably are at fault (dot-com bust, off-shoring hype), but
there seem to be others. One in particular is that so few HS
graduates seem ready analytically to join in. This is a problem to
discuss elsew
>> To the extent that the CS departments have allowed, and continue to
>> allow, themselves to be company towns for the major industry players,
>> they deserve what they get. And if what they get is a lack of interest,
>> maybe that is saying something optimistic about who our kids are today.
On Wed, Oct 12, 2005 at 08:25:56PM -0600, Chuck Allison wrote:
> Hello EDU-SIG,
>
> CS enrollments seem to be dropping drastically everywhere. Many
> factors probably are at fault (dot-com bust, off-shoring hype), but
> there seem to be others. One in particular is that so few HS
> graduat
Hello David,
This makes so much sense it's scary. Except I don't know how to
explain myself. I was a deprived city-slicker who did not know how to
work. College woke me up. But to be brutally honest, I didn't have
anything else to do but go to college, and I had no other area of
strength besides m
On 10/12/05, David Handy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 12, 2005 at 08:25:56PM -0600, Chuck Allison wrote:
> >
> > CS enrollments seem to be dropping drastically everywhere. Many
> > factors probably are at fault (dot-com bust, off-shoring hype), but
> > there seem to be others. One
>I noticed a profound shift occur at Glencoe High School in Hillsboro,
> Oregon between 1985 (when I graduated from there) and 1995-1998 when
> I visited there to give talks for national engineering week. In one
> memorable experience, I spoke to the Biochemistry students, in the
> same classroom w
At 07:35 13/10/2005, Toby Donaldson wrote:
>I think when a kid says "engineering is too hard", they are also
>saying that they don't see the rewards of engineering as very
>significant. I really don't see kids as being afraid to work hard;
>quite the opposite, I am often amazed at how hard students
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Chuck Allison
> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 12:02 AM
> To: David Handy
>
> As an interesting data point, most of our students are older and/or
> married and/or working, so we're doing okay there.
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Peter Bowyer
> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 3:57 AM
> To: edu-sig@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments
>
>
> Could it also be because Engineering i
On Wed, Oct 12, 2005 at 11:35:36PM -0700, Toby Donaldson wrote:
> > It appeared as if these kids thought there was a hard road to success
> > and an easy road to the same success, so planned to take the easy road.
>
> Hmm, is this just the "kids today are lazy and didn't work as hard as
> I did in
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of David Handy
> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 11:48 AM
> To: Toby Donaldson
> Cc: edu-sig@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments
>
> It seemed like we h
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Arthur
> Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 1:26 PM
> To: 'David Handy'; 'Toby Donaldson'
> Though I felt his ire was quite misdirected, seeming to be pointing the
> finger at the religionists influen
> Kirby is in better touch with the pulse of things back in Oregon now than
> I am. Hopefully he has witnessed a rebound, hopefully things have gotten
> better. But I believe there really was a dip in the 1990's.
>
Not sure about a rebound yet. Free Geek (freegeek.org) has been an
important infl
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> > Behalf Of Peter Bowyer
> > Sent: Thursday, October 13, 2005 3:57 AM
> > To: edu-sig@python.org
> > Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments
> >
> >
> > Could it also be because Engin
Hello Arthur,
Saturday, October 15, 2005, 9:04:48 AM, you wrote:
A> It seems to me the issues here are all tied together quite neatly with some
A> of the discussion of the previous thread - small business vs. large
A> business, the impact of companies like Microsoft (well maybe mostly just
A> Mic
> -Original Message-
> From: Chuck Allison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 12:16 PM
> To: Arthur
> Cc: 'Peter Bowyer'; edu-sig@python.org
> Subject: Re[2]: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments
> They are pretty much
> unanimous in th
> -Original Message-
> From: Arthur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> When the French revolutionists sort to decimalize time, they had both
> absolute power and a good deal of logic on their side. And failed
> nonetheless.
Of course they only had such power within their own domain, and -
pa
> To the extent that the CS departments have allowed, and continue to allow,
> themselves to be company towns for the major industry players, they
> deserve what they get. And if what they get is a lack of interest, maybe
> that is saying something optimistic about who our kids are today.
>
> Ar
> I am hoping that *that* is the role that .Net ends up playing.
Sounds like you're praying for a very expensive train wreck.
Just to make education better? Pretty high price tag.
If .NET is slated to go down the tubes, then kiss good-bye your online
eticketing and ebanking sites that use it
Hello Kirby/Arthur,
Saturday, October 15, 2005, 12:30:54 PM, you wrote:
FWIW, I see .NET catching on practically *everywhere*, and it doesn't
seem like it's because it's hyped like Java was. It seems like
developers and managers alike are genuinely happy with it. It seems
like Microsoft finally g
> From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: 'Arthur'; 'Chuck Allison'
>
> > I am hoping that *that* is the role that .Net ends up playing.
>
> Sounds like you're praying for a very expensive train wreck.
What I happen to feel on these matters is actually quite complicated -
beyond what
> -Original Message-
> From: Chuck Allison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 2:52 PM
> To: Kirby Urner
> Cc: 'Arthur'; edu-sig@python.org
> It was inevitable that Redmond would eventually do something good.
And wouldn't it be wonderfully ironic if it's the fi
> -Original Message-
> From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 3:19 PM
> To: 'Arthur'; 'Chuck Allison'
> Cc: edu-sig@python.org
> Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments
>
> > But how seriously does
> But if Kirby comes back with the argument that .Net is necessary to world
> peace, the elimination of hunger, and the realization of my son's
> potential - yes, I might bust.
>
I'd just like to keep my eticketing and ebanking services undisrupted,
thanks. I use them frequently.
Your need to s
> But how seriously does this issue concern you?
>
> Art
>
I think I spelled it out pretty clearly already, in terms of my own
situation: a small business aiming to make a difference in the education
sector.
I'm not experiencing Microsoft as a big threat; have already mentioned how I
use its
> -Original Message-
> From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> Your need to see Microsoft suffer disgrace is irrelevant in Kirby world.
Well I happen to put some importance to small matters like the integrity of
institutions.
Not a story probably "relevant to the members of
> Did you notice anything?
>
> Art
>
The saga of Arthur Anderson is not topical on edu-sig @ python.org. Maybe
you and I should take it to some other list?
How 'bout Geodesic @ University of Buffalo?
Tends to be more financial thanks to Hutchings & Co., plus is sometimes used
by Fuller Scho
> -Original Message-
> From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 4:09 PM
> To: 'Arthur'; 'Chuck Allison'
>
> The saga of Arthur Anderson is not topical on edu-sig @ python.org. Maybe
> you and I should take it to some other list?
>
> How 'bout Geode
> -Original Message-
> From: Arthur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Sent: Saturday, October 15, 2005 4:09 PM
> > To: 'Arthur'; 'Chuck Allison'
> >
> > The saga of Arthur Anderson is not topical on edu-sig @ python.org.
Maybe it is, at least a little more than you suppose.
I happen to h
> Cryptic to say the least. But perhaps more on topic in Arthur world then
> intended - as I will be at the University of Buffalo next month to hear
> Brian Greene (of The Elegant Universe) speak, and to visit a young man to
> whom I have some attachment.
>
I saw Brian Greene at the ISEPP lecture
> Can't help it, that I did.
>
> Art
I liked that documentary about the rise and fall of Enron OK. Fascinating,
that undeclared war between California and Texas:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0413845/
Never mind about switching this thread to Geodesic. I just realized I don't
care to think about
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Kirby Urner
>
> Computer giants are more fun to think about than accounting firms.
How about the intersection thereof.
As the world, not too long ago, turned:
http://www.itworldcanada.com/a/Networ
> How about the intersection thereof.
>
Yeah, that's kinda interesting.
I've been spelling it wrong I see: Andersen.
Anyway, as you say, that's yesteryear's soap.
Kirby
> As the world, not too long ago, turned:
>
> http://www.itworldcanada.com/a/Network-World/c9da5e1f-7530-498a-bb1a-
> 6d
Hey Art, I actually do appreciate all the autobio and think it relevant, to
me at least.
I thought you were some kind of financial advisor before and individual
clients and/or pension fund managers might knock on your door looking for
safe ways to grow their money, a rate of return -- but then
Hey Art, I actually do appreciate all the autobio and think it relevant, to
me at least.
I thought you were some kind of financial advisor before and individual
clients and/or pension fund managers might knock on your door looking for
safe ways to grow their money, a rate of return -- but then
On 17-Oct-05, at 12:45 PM, Kirby Urner wrote:
> In microcosm, I suppose I'm not that different from Microsoft (I'm
> just a
> lot smaller). I want to survive in a business that interests me.
> So that
> brings me to a philosophical question: what's wrong with that?
There is a difference ac
> -Original Message-
> From: Dethe Elza [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Dethe Elza
> Sent: Monday, October 17, 2005 2:16 PM
> To: Kirby Urner
> Cc: 'Arthur'; edu-sig@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments.
>
>
> On 17-Oct-05, a
Kirby,
I think we're largely in agreement here, it just seemed that you were
saying that what you do as a small business and what Microsoft does
is ethically equivalent, which I don't agree with. I do agree that
the solution is not to legislate business out of schools. I think
the soluti
> Where do I sign up? I'd seriously like to hear more about this. My
> wife is doing her Ph.D. in Education right now, and keeps asking
> herself (and me), "why am I doing this?" We're looking for more
> signs of progressive change.
>
My hope is a lot of people will be looking where to sign u
> From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: 'Arthur'; edu-sig@python.org
> Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments.
> In microcosm, I suppose I'm not that different from Microsoft (I'm just a
> lot smaller). I want to survive in a business that inte
A business trip had me passing through New Haven. As a lover of books, and
therefore bookstores, I took the opportunity to stop to look for a bookstore
near the Yale campus - figuring I would find a bookstore with significantly
more depth than those to which I normally have access.
I was right.
Tony wrote -
>I don't worry too much about the people who go into CS expecting
>vocational training --- such people can very happily be steered
>towards excellent technical training outside of universities. But I
>suspect that CS is often a let-down to students who expect it to be as
>relevant as
Arthur wrote:
> A business trip had me passing through New Haven. As a lover of books, and
> therefore bookstores, I took the opportunity to stop to look for a bookstore
> near the Yale campus - figuring I would find a bookstore with significantly
> more depth than those to which I normally have
> -Original Message-
> From: John Zelle [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> To: Arthur
>
> I'm a big bookstore fan too. It's the best place to go when you want to
> learn about some hot new technology ;-). It's not necesarily the place I
> go for a liberal education.
Except that this one was cl
On Wed, 2005-11-02 at 12:38 -0600, John Zelle wrote:
> Actually, most CS types would say that programming itself is
> not an academic subject; rather it is a skill of some importance to
> the
> study of "real" academic subjects such as Computer Science.
It's also worth remembering that lots of
Hello Arthur,
Wednesday, November 2, 2005, 7:42:54 AM, you wrote:
A> A business trip had me passing through New Haven. As a lover of books, and
A> therefore bookstores, I took the opportunity to stop to look for a bookstore
A> near the Yale campus - figuring I would find a bookstore with signifi
Hello Arthur,
Wednesday, November 2, 2005, 12:29:41 PM, you wrote:
>> I'm a big bookstore fan too. It's the best place to go when you want to
>> learn about some hot new technology ;-). It's not necesarily the place I
>> go for a liberal education.
A> Except that this one was clearly geared towar
> -Original Message-
> From: Chuck Allison [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2005 3:43 PM
> To: Arthur
I believe I've been to that bookstore. It's practically across the
> street from Yale, right? I was there in 1998. I remember browsing for
> a long time in Libera
Arthur wrote:
> As, for example, noted by Rob Malouf's recent post:
>
> """
> We're not training our
> students to be programmers, we're just trying to give them the basic
> computational skills necessary to study language, genes, etc.
> """
>
> There is - as I think John pretty much put - learni
>If you'd rather an easier start, I like "Concrete Mathematics" --
> by Graham, Knuth, and Patashnik. Reads much faster and covers the
> mathematics needed to analyze algorithms. This path is a much more
> abstract approach to the problem. I remember in the introduction to
> the class (upon
> -Original Message-
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On
> Behalf Of Kirby Urner
> Sent: Thursday, November 03, 2005 9:17 PM
> To: 'Scott David Daniels'; edu-sig@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments - programming as anti-
> -Original Message-
> From: Arthur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Friday, November 04, 2005 7:44 AM
> To: 'Kirby Urner'; 'Scott David Daniels'; 'edu-sig@python.org'
> >
> > CS needs better movies, visualizations/animations, is the long and short
> > of
> > it -- of Knuth's 256-cylinde
> -Original Message-
> From: Arthur [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> The difficulty in this stuff is recognizing, appreciating and exploiting
> new
> possibilities in a focused manner, without getting *too* excited and
> generalizing *too* broadly about what those possibilities are and whe
> My own experience is more toward the learning to program to learn - in my
> case - mathematical ideas. But ultimately, to get to where I want to get, I
> realize that "basic computational skills" are not sufficient - that I need
> to get somewhat beyond the basics. I think that the linguist, or
> Those departments should fill those needs under current academic
> structures by offering the necessary computing courses. There's no
> shortage of people with practical computing skills --- just a shortage
> of people with impractical ones. :-)
>
I think there's a shortage of computer pros w
> Those departments should fill those needs under current academic
> structures by offering the necessary computing courses. There's no
> shortage of people with practical computing skills --- just a shortage
> of people with impractical ones. :-)
>
I think there's a shortage of computer pros w
> You'd probably appreciate the recent cite on PlanetPyhton:
> "Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs" iPod edition ;)
> http://pythonzweb.blogspot.com/2005/11/structure-and-interpretation-
> of.html
>
Yes thank you. I've not ready for vPod but can handle Divx. I'm
downloading the f
- Original Message -
From: Kirby Urner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
> In my Classroom of Tomorrow, the teacher has random access to a
> gazillionvideo shorts in the archive, and during Q&A might pull up
> just the right
> ones to sustain the dialog. It's not a matter of the teacher
> losing
On Fri, 2005-11-04 at 10:58 -0800, Kirby Urner wrote:
> In my Classroom of Tomorrow, the teacher has random access to a
> gazillion
> video shorts in the archive, and during Q&A might pull up just the
> right
> ones to sustain the dialog. It's not a matter of the teacher losing
> control
> to "A/V
Kirby Urner wrote:
> I think there's a shortage of computer pros with strong presentation skills.
> Like, at Europython we got a 5 minute upbraiding by one of the few female
> geeks, complaining that we collectively mumbled too much, failed to project
> our enthusiasm for our topics. We must do m
- Original Message -
From: Rob Malouf <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Date: Friday, November 4, 2005 3:13 pm
Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments - programming as anti-intellectualism
).
>
> We're working on something like that here for language teaching.
Please note that the
> Sounds expensive.
>
Video production is amenable to open source techniques i.e. centralized
databases with individual designers doing edit/recombine, re-uploading,
building off one another's efforts.
Anyway "expensive" just means "lots of paying work for people" so what's so
bad about that? H
> Kirby, do you not see any irony between your two comments in this
> thread? One of the goals of liberal education is to produce
> well-rounded, deeply human individuals. One of the "bright ideas of
> competence" academics have is that students should be able to express
> themselves elequently, p
> -Original Message-
> From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > Most of these kinds of initiatives have not been able to stand up to any
> > kind of rigorous approach to assessing their effectiveness.
>
> A statement made with no citations or bibliographic references. I'm t
> www.allianceforchildhood.net/computers
>
> Please spend a few minutes there.
>
I'll be spending more than a few.
> You're the guy spending the bucks for us, so you have the burden.
>
I'm not pushing any one size fits all approach.
If groups want to develop computer-free video-free modes
> -Original Message-
> From: Kirby Urner [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Sent: Saturday, November 05, 2005 1:12 AM
> To: 'Arthur'
> Cc: edu-sig@python.org
> Subject: RE: [Edu-sig] Low Enrollments - programming as anti-
> intellectualism
>
> I develop c
> But while being the world's
> leading proponent of Naïve Programming
Trying to formulate the tenants:
1. Only solve the problems you know you have.
2. It's only a problem if it is worth solving.
3. The future is nothing if not surprising, always.
Art
> Without a question (IMO) - the least interesting section of the bookstore
> was the Computer area. Hundreds of how-tos on the commercial technologies
> currently hot. The end.
>
> Nothing worth talking about that precedes the current hot technologies - one
> would conclude from the book selectio
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