Thanks everyone.
From: "John Woodgate"
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Date: Tue, Aug 10, 2010 3:10 pm
Subject: [PSES] CE on Machinery that is not for Sale
To:
In message <00d001cb38bc$d23e5aa0$76bb0fe0$@com>, da
There is a fundamental difference between assigning an uncertainty factor
that is in fact a hard number, like NSA, vs. something that has to be
wagged, like the effect of cable placement on radiation efficiency in the
direction of an antenna.
In fact, this is an excellent example of when a large,
To all,
I need some help in determining if there are any actual quantifiable hazards
being presented to humans when exposed to the radiated field of the radiated
immunity test such as IEC/EN 61000-4-3 or IEC/EN 61000-6-1 inside of a closed
shielded or anechoic chamber. I’m asking anyone in the
In message , dated Tue, 10
Aug 2010, Ken Javor writes:
>That is all background. The unalterable fact, regardless of how MU has
>been misapplied and perverted, is that it applies to the measurement
>facility itself; something that inherently will have an uncertainty on
>the order of several d
This excerpt from Mr. Demirci‘s message below is the kernel of the issue:
“I believe a proper measurement uncertainty assessment will decrease the
different measurement / test results between accredited laboratories for the
same product. Then, manufacturer / designer will not shop for a laboratory
In message <00d001cb38bc$d23e5aa0$76bb0fe0$@com>, dated Tue, 10 Aug
2010, jral...@productsafetyinc.com writes:
>Management is saying CE is not needed on a machine because it's for
>internal use. Built in the USA, used in the EU. Is CE required or
>not?
>
>I cannot find anything in the Directi
Does 'ambient scans' mean a measurement done on the spectrum with the EUT
turned off or not present?Would an ambient CW or modulated signal affect
measurement uncertainty? I suppose it would, because it cannot simply be
subtracted from the EUT spectrum.
>>I seem to recall that the military wants to see ambient scans with at
>>least 6dB under any limit. Kind of a inside out measurement
>>uncertainty?.
>Yes, it's a sort of insurance against a 6 dB favourable error. But the
>point is that it's FAR easier to cope with in practice, a
.> IT DOES NOT GIVE YOU ACCURATE NUMBERS.
That is the basis of MU, instead of not knowing how inaccurate,
nobody introduces MU for the sake of ACCURATE numbers, just to
define how INACCURATE they are.
CISPR16 get a range of obtainable inaccuracy, in practice +/- 6 dB (50-200%)
I admit, usin
Hi Gert,
I think you would be better saying MU muddies the water on what you might be
measuring. IT DOES NOT GIVE YOU ACCURATE NUMBERS.
Anyone that thinks EMC is metrology, especially when they only focus on a small
part of the big picture, is unnecessary adding cost and complexity to a
measur
John,
Yes, it applies. Look at the definition for "placing on the market" in, for
example, article 2 of the machinery directive. It includes "... whether for
reward or free of charge." Under only very limited circumstances can items
built for own use be considered out of scope. But definitely an
John,
You are correct. Any product when placed into use is considered to
have been 'placed on the market', even if it is not sold. CE Marking
requirements apply. Also, be aware of the 'Safety of workers at work'
directive, the analog to the US OSHA regulations. This directive
requires that
Hi,
Management is saying CE is not needed on a machine because it's for internal
use. Built in the USA, used in the EU. Is CE required or not?
I cannot find anything in the Directive that says it applies only to
equipment for sale. I actually find several references that make me believe
the Di
In message
<1abb0f6ff6cb7545adad042f566d5f4401ba5...@sv-mailbox01.ohdc.com>, dated
Tue, 10 Aug 2010, "Sundstrom, Michael"
writes:
>I seem to recall that the military wants to see ambient scans with at
>least 6dB under any limit. Kind of a inside out measurement
>uncertainty?.
Yes, it's a so
In message <8cd06c5a43f24be-12a8-...@webmail-m087.sysops.aol.com>, dated
Tue, 10 Aug 2010, lfresea...@aol.com writes:
>just stressing Ken's use of the word unwarranted. I'm personally
>vehemently opposed to MU in EMC measurements: the reason why is that
>end to end even 10 dB is a trivial error
I seem to recall that the military wants to see ambient scans with at least
6dB under any limit. Kind of a inside out measurement uncertainty?.
Michael Sundstrom
OHD / TREQ Dallas
Electronic Lab Analist, EMC Lead
2170 French Settelment Rd, Suite B
Dallas, Texas 75212
(214) 579 6312
(
I guess the equipments in Apollo project hasn’t only pass the tests with no
margin J They may have required quite a big margin so MU is not an issue at
all…
Commercial world can be quite a bit different in that matter. They can’t
afford 10 dB margin.
Has anyone seen a consumer electronic pr
MU is of course the only way of knowing what you do/measure and ultimately
test.
But if it need to be taken into account…. is another story.
But if you do not know where your errors are, I guess
you can better stop measuring.
In most metrological approaches only the hardware measurement
HI John,
just stressing Ken's use of the word unwarranted. I'm personally vehemently
opposed to MU in EMC measurements: the reason why is that end to end even 10
dB is a trivial error...
Just because the Stds committee says so does not make it warranted. All MU
contributes is an academic exercise
Regardless of what has been done, it is still technically unwarranted.
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261
> From: John Woodgate
> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 17:46:08 +0100
> To:
> Subject: Re: Calibration supplier for signal generator with pulse modulation
>
> In message , dated Tue, 10
> Aug 2010
In message , dated Tue, 10
Aug 2010, Ken Javor writes:
>Uncertainty for modulation parameters of depth or pulse on-off ratio
>and time duration? Uncertainty applies to things like field intensity,
>where the construction of the room or OATS and near field effects
>combine to provide signific
The Logisys keyboard at my workstation was very reasonably priced and has
switchable red/blue backlighting. I choose the blue, except maybe on
Halloween.
Orin
On Tue, 10 Aug 2010 15:55:55 +0200 Kim Boll Jensen writes:
Hi all
We have a manufacturer of a medico PC k
Uncertainty for modulation parameters of depth or pulse on-off ratio and
time duration? Uncertainty applies to things like field intensity, where
the construction of the room or OATS and near field effects combine to
provide significant uncertainty.
But something easily measured with an o'scope o
Is there an acceptable method in any immunity standards, or the tolerance
specified anywhere for checking the modulation?
You need to come up with an uncertainty number if you are performing a
compliance test.
It should be pretty painful if you are not a ISO 17025 calibration laboratory.
OOO (Own
Amplitude and pulse modulation parameters are adequately checked with a
calibrated o'scope.
And even frequency could be checked with your EMI receiver, assuming it is
calibrated.
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261
> From: Deniz Demirci
> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 08:30:17 -0700
> To: Untitled
> C
The amplitude of signal source may not need calibration because you calibrate
the field at the end with calibrated probes.
You should at least check or get the signal generator calibrated if your
verification procedure is not checking (characterizing) the modulation.
EN 61000-4-3 gives some hints
In message <006b01cb3893$c121d900$43658b00$@dk>, dated Tue, 10 Aug 2010,
Kim Boll Jensen writes:
>We have a manufacturer of a medico PC keyboard who uses a red backlight
>in all keypads, so it is easy to see the letters etc.
>
>
>
>Red is normally an indication of danger or action required in
Hi all
We have a manufacturer of a medico PC keyboard who uses a red backlight in all
keypads, so it is easy to see the letters etc.
Red is normally an indication of danger or action required in the medico
world, but is this indicator light or not, shall he change color or can we let
him us
Given your list of equipment, the only thing you should need to calibrate
about the signal source is the frequency accuracy.
Ken Javor
Phone: (256) 650-5261
> From: Wendy Nya
> Date: Tue, 10 Aug 2010 06:17:17 -0700 (PDT)
> To: Ken Javor , Untitled
> Subject: Re: Calibration supplier for sign
In Radiated Immunity, the amplifier output is not calibrated. Rather it is the
signal generator, power meter, power heads and field probe.
From: Ken Javor
To: Wendy Nya ; Untitled
Sent: Tue, 10 August, 2010 21:04:33
Subject: Re: Calibration supplier for signal generator with pulse modulation
Why would the signal source need calibration? Normally, it is the signal
measurement devices that require calibration. Further, this signal source
likely requires some amplification in order to provide the required signal
for EMI testing, so that it is the amplified output which must be measured,
n
Dear All,
I am looking for a calibration supplier that can provide accredited service
for
AR SG6000. It has built-in pulse modulation option (for Radiated Immunity
use).
By the way - Is anyone using this model? It seems to be OEM from Agilent (it
came in an agilent box) but the equipment is mar
In message ,
dated Tue, 10 Aug 2010, "ce-test, qualified testing bv - Gert Gremmen"
writes:
>I object….
So do I. You have misrepresented what I wrote and accused me of
encouraging manufacturers to avoid compliance. This is extremely
reprehensible indeed.
Observance of any law requires that
Regards,
Ing. Gert Gremmen
I object….
>You don't HAVE to do any testing at all. What you have to do is decide
>what tests YOU need to do to be sure that your product meets the
>Essential Requirements of the Directive. You may well decide that you do
>need to apply EN 55022 a
In message <8044d570-ce2b-4dcb-a578-2e7efaa6d...@emc-seminars.com>,
dated Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Ken Wyatt writes:
>Please don't be confused. You're reading the standard correctly. I
>don't believe there is any push from the CISPR WGs to extend beyond 1
>GHz any time soon. One reason, I suppose, is
In message <7bc42b81-8d6e-4000-96e0-3042ba7c5...@emc-seminars.com>,
dated Mon, 9 Aug 2010, Ken Wyatt writes:
>Chris, for industrial (ISM) products, you should be following IEC
>61326, which references CISPR 11. Generally, any ISM product (plus any
>accessories, whether ITE-compliant, or not) s
In message <5AA25764446A4A7296F2174FC6877C0C@christopher>, dated Mon, 9
Aug 2010, Chris Wells writes:
>I have an industrial product that has fallen under CISPR 11 but now has
>an Ethernet port.
>
>Do I need to test to both? Looking at competitors documentations that
>is what they appear to be
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