In message
, dated
Wed, 16 Sep 2015, Gary McInturff writes:
In the EU there were some ETSI standards that were similar.
Long before ETSI, the situation in Europe was very different from that
in the Americas, because the phone business was run by government
agencies in all countries (Post,
Hi Ted:
I agree with your observations about consumer electronics, including your
comment that most of the quality problems these days are due to poor design
rather than poor manufacturing. I also enjoyed reading about the "Red Ring
of Death" problem with the Xbox.
I recall that many years ago
The economics of many consumer products changes the analysis of quality. In
general, manufacturing has reached a point where quality issues due to
manufacturing errors has decreased significantly for many consumer electronics.
There may still be quality issues related to the design, but the over
Gary's observations about the telecom industry's obsession with field
reliability and resistibility to electromagnetic interference are correct.
When I started at AT&T Bell Labs in 1977, they already had a suite of
self-imposed immunity requirements for static discharge, conducted RF, and
lightning
The telecommunications industry has always had serious concern over product
robustness: mechanical, safety, and EMC which was reflected in their private
industry NEBS program. These were developed long before the wireless devices
proliferated. These were private industry standards were develope
John:
I was thinking more about how the evidence of problems is chewed through an
official bureaucracy. Specifically, how much of a barrier is put up to Joe
Consumer when his computer flutters? If the regulatory agency makes it hard
to register a complaint, or discards complaints for multiple b
John Woodgate writes (in part):
>Considerable weight is probably given to complaints from the emergency
>services, because of their importance and because they are
>probably well-founded, not lunatic.
Yes, and not just emergency services... I want my MTV via 4G! The
Cellular/mobile industry s
In message , dated Wed, 16 Sep 2015,
John Woodgate writes:
To drop a worst-case 10% of 230 V at 50 A, the source resistance is
0.046 ohms
No, 0.46 ohms, but the rest is OK.
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for
In message <55f9cfdf.3090...@oracle.com>, dated Wed, 16 Sep 2015, Monrad
Monsen writes:
I note that even while some in the standards community are adding cost
in their efforts to systematically remove variation in measurements, no
one is then passing on the benefits of this improved measureme
I have seen digital systems with features that have been susceptible to
radiated noise. One example was a system that had a capacitive touch power
button. It failed initial radiated immunity testing at the frequency of the
oscillator of the capacitive circuit. I see more and more digital systems
Or process changes? New board vendor? New cleaning process?
Regards,
Bob LaFrance
N9NEO
Design Engineer
Creare Inc.
16 Great Hollow Road
Hanover, NH
603-640-2539
-Original Message-
From: John Woodgate [mailto:j...@jmwa.demon.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 9:20 AM
To: EMC-
Hi Brian:
When evaluating field failures due to surges, I find it very helpful to
carefully inspect each unit returned from the field to try and identify the
path that the surge took through the equipment. Then, the components in that
path are carefully examined for clues about what happene
In message , dated Wed, 16
Sep 2015, =?iso-8859-2?Q?Bo=B9tjan_Glavi=E8?=
writes:
This is specific customer requirement probably from old IEC 61000-4-1.
Then you have the difficult task of persuading them that the test is no
longer valid. Especially since probably no test house can do the t
In message
<64D32EE8B9CBDD44963ACB076A5F6ABB02716E48@Mailbox-Tech.lecotech.local>,
dated Wed, 16 Sep 2015, "Kunde, Brian" writes:
However, our 300 watt power supplies are used in a product that is
plugged into a 30A – 50A single phase branch circuit. I assume that
such a circuit in a commerc
Hi Gert & John,
Gert gave some interesting examples of radiated immunity failures
(analogue measurement systems like thermocouples), but none of them
apply to computers (the products I usually work on). Also, Gert
mentioned some power supply design mistakes that have caused EFT
failures in the
Hi John,
This is specific customer requirement probably from old IEC 61000-4-1.
Best regards,
Bostjan
> On 16. sep. 2015, at 20.40, John Woodgate wrote:
>
> In message <606ffa06-e3c8-4a3f-b2be-0869b31fd...@siq.si>, dated Wed, 16 Sep
> 2015, =?iso-8859-2?Q?Bo=B9tjan_Glavi=E8?= writes:
>
>> I
In message <000e01d0f0af$afa53fd0$0eefbf70$@ieee.org>, dated Wed, 16 Sep
2015, Richard Nute writes:
In short, does ?no complaints? really indicate no problems?
It indicates no problems prominent enough to come to attention. This is
not liked by hard science but it's the way the world wags. D
Thanks to all for your input and suggestions. You all have given us several
areas to look at.
The power supply failures have been on six different models or power supplies
and two different manufacturers. We have also seen a couple line filters fails
which are unusual. The failures have occurre
On 9/15/2015 4:53 PM, Kunde, Brian wrote:
we have not been able to find the reason for the fallout. The power
supplies have all shown arc damage to the AC front end, signs of
arcing and traces burned or vaporized, blown fuses, and shorted FETs
and/or Rectifiers. These failures have occurred on
In short, does "no complaints" really indicate no
problems?
Carl Sagan: "Absence of evidence is not evidence
of absence."
Best regards,
Rich
-
This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering
In message <606ffa06-e3c8-4a3f-b2be-0869b31fd...@siq.si>, dated Wed, 16
Sep 2015, =?iso-8859-2?Q?Bo=B9tjan_Glavi=E8?=
writes:
Is anyone familiar with 1,3ms surge test according to EN 61000-4-1. I
am looking for a test house in EU capable of performing this test.
Peak voltage is 735V (3phase
Brian may be on the right track with the cookies, settings or aliens. I have no
problems logging in from a Windows 10 computer. If it works for XP and 10, it
should work for Windows 7.
Ted Eckert
Compliance Engineer
Microsoft Corporation
ted.eck...@microsoft.com
The opinions expressed are my ow
been on and off ul.com and my home all day, no issues.
From: Nyffenegger, Dave
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 1:02 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] UL CSDS website
Are you referring to UL.com (MyHome @UL)? What sort of trouble? I t
Probably cookies or browser settings. Or space aliens. Some UL sites need to
see cookies and need popups allowed. Also, do not allow the browser to fill
stuff in.
Following UL sites are currently available from both my Win7 and Linux boxen:
CSDS = Collaborative Standards Development System
SCCL
Dear colleagues,
Is anyone familiar with 1,3ms surge test according to EN 61000-4-1. I am
looking for a test house in EU capable of performing this test. Peak voltage
is 735V (3phase unit).
Thank you for your support.
Best regards,
Bostjan
-
--
Are you referring to UL.com (MyHome @UL)? What sort of trouble? I tried to
log in yesterday from my Win 7 machine and it kept giving me Authentication
errors. I then tried to log in from my WIN XP VM with the some login ID and
password and have no problem. Same thing today. Go figure.
If y
Just did CSDS logon ok, at least for the committee areas that I go into.
Brian
From: McDiarmid, Ralph [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 10:45 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] UL CSDS website
Anyone having trouble logging into
In message <55f9a5fd.7...@iglou.com>, dated Wed, 16 Sep 2015, John
Barnes writes:
I was told that governments regulate EMC because the product that fails
is not the product/equipment that causes the problem-- thus the wrong
party gets the blame, and the culprit gets off scot-free.
Yes: in f
Anyone having trouble logging into that site today?
___
Ralph McDiarmid | Schneider Electric | Solar Business | CANADA |
Regulatory Compliance Engineering
-
---
John et al,
I closed dBi Corporation in September 2013 and retired. So I haven't
bothered keeping up with all of the niggling details of electromagnetic
compatibility (EMC), electromagnetic interference (EMI), and
electrostatic discharge (ESD) standards as they have evolved since then.
But from e
From: Gary McInturff [mailto:gary.mcintu...@esterline.com]
Sent: Wednesday, September 16, 2015 7:32 AM
To: Ted Eckert; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] RF Common Mode Immunity Test Question
Ted I was thinking about this on the drive in this morning - not from a power
grid build ou
I wish I could find the article by Bruce Archambeault and decoupling and the
PCB board inductance contribution but unfortunately I haven't the time but it
was a great extension of the ESR curves of capacitors to include the effects of
vias, and other inductance "adders" to the base capacitor cur
>Does anyone have any experience in filing a consumer complaint with
>their applicable national agency? Was it easy to find the place to
>enter your complaint? Did you get the impression the agency was simply
>trying to get you to go away? Did you feel as though your input was
>going to a null-
Hi Brian,
Pat offers some great advice with respect to filter stability and resulting
ringing. This is not something normally tested using a transient generator, so
should be examined.
I’d also like to add an observation. During the time I worked for HP/Agilent in
their scopes division, we als
In message
,
dated Wed, 16 Sep 2015, Pat Lawler writes:
Have there been changes to the design of your system,
including 'improvements'. (;-)
--
OOO - Own Opinions Only. With best wishes. See www.jmwa.demon.co.uk
When I turn my back on the sun, it's to look for a rainbow
John Woodgate, J M W
In message <004f01d0f078$6ea986d0$4bfc9470$@cox.net>, dated Wed, 16 Sep
2015, Ed Price writes:
To paraphrase Monrad and John: "The only justification for regulations is
consumer complaints."
There is a legal principle, 'Cui bono?' ('In whose interest?') that
challenges laws that are of no pr
Hi Brian,
- Have there been changes to the design of your system, specifically
the AC EMI filter? Increased inductor values, either by design or
vendor change (filter manufacturer, or type of core used in the
filter) could cause excessive ringing at the input of the power supply
at turn-on.
- Try
To paraphrase Monrad and John: "The only justification for regulations is
consumer complaints."
Does anyone have any experience in filing a consumer complaint with their
applicable national agency? Was it easy to find the place to enter your
complaint? Did you get the impression the agency was
In message <003001d0f058$e49a7360$adcf5a20$@westin-emission.no>, dated
Wed, 16 Sep 2015, Amund Westin writes:
don't spread out parallel capacitors
==> but could caps there and there on the pcb prevent the so called
"plane bouncing"?
I mean that if you use parallel capacitors to decouple ove
And 0402 is better for low inductance
==> Yes, but 0402 may cause some problems for the PCB manufacturer (due to
accuracy), therefore 0603 is desired.
When trying to 'fix' an existing PCB layout, you get good and bad results
because you can't change many things
==> Agree. All inductance are fixed
On 9/16/2015 2:37 AM, Amund Westin wrote:
Any good / bad experience by adding different cap values for decoupling?
Amund,
You may not need *more*; I once fixed a similar problem, a design
re-used on a PWB of a
different shape and size, by moving a capacitor that had been separated
from the d
On 9/15/2015 2:26 PM, Brian O'Connell wrote:
expect ... higher profits quarter after quarter, lowering the cost becomes
the key driver.
Quality suffers unless it is built into design; squeezing out quality
for the sake of higher profits leads to delays and overruns
that would not occur if
In message <002301d0f04a$32a7faa0$97f7efe0$@westin-emission.no>, dated
Wed, 16 Sep 2015, Amund Westin writes:
I have a 450MHz spurious. Only 2 dB margin to limit EN55022 B.
Can see some potential loops on the PCB and will try to reduce the loop
area.
Or break the loops.
Using only 100nF
In message <55f8a060.4060...@oracle.com>, dated Tue, 15 Sep 2015, Monrad
Monsen writes:
. We have to be careful about how much EMC testing is mandated.
Today, the standards committees are going beyond the original intent
(reduce interference by mandating emissions limits) and now are trying
Hi Brian,
Apart from ESD problems :
My 2 cents...
High inrush currents, due to (renewed) electrical installations ?
Inrush current may happen also after a sudden interruption...
Residential mains systems have limited capacity of prospective short circuit
current.
Industrial mains may have 10's
I have a 450MHz spurious. Only 2 dB margin to limit EN55022 B.
Can see some potential loops on the PCB and will try to reduce the loop
area.
Using only 100nF as decouling caps (size 0603). If introducing a 100pF, it
decrease 450MHz by 6-7 dB. But adding different caps values may introduce
anti-r
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