On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 18:35:19 -0700, Doug Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>Reusable vehicles allow discretion to be the greater part of valor.
Excellent point. Excellent sound bite too. I predict that line will
find its way into several RLV presentations. :-)
--
"When I want your opinion, I
Paul F. Dietz wrote:
> Henry Spencer wrote:
>
>
>>Since the plumbing systems for the two propellants necessarily meet in the
>>chamber, there is inevitably a path back as far as the lowest oxidizer
>>valve(s). The question is whether procedural measures like purges can
>>keep that path from eve
Henry Spencer wrote:
> Since the plumbing systems for the two propellants necessarily meet in the
> chamber, there is inevitably a path back as far as the lowest oxidizer
> valve(s). The question is whether procedural measures like purges can
> keep that path from ever being followed. The way y
Andrew Case wrote:
> If the length of the plumbing between valve and injector is different
> for fuel & ox, then simultaneous shutdown of the main valves ought
> to lead to a timing difference in the shutdown _at_the_injectors_.
> This obviously glosses over issues like differences in plumbing di
On Sat, 28 Sep 2002, Doug Jones wrote:
> On shutdown, the only command needed is to either close the main valves
> (as on the EZ-Rocket), or simply to turn off the Main Open command (as
> is usual when using pneumatic actuated 4-way solenoid piloted valves).
> As the propellant pressures drop
Henry Spencer wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Sep 2002, Randall Clague wrote:
>
>>>The other thought is - in such a situation, would an orderly shutdown
>>>actually be quick enough and less dangerous?
>>
>>Good point. If we automate the shutdown sequence...
>
>
> Of course, there is the question of what h
On Sat, 28 Sep 2002, Randall Clague wrote:
> >The other thought is - in such a situation, would an orderly shutdown
> >actually be quick enough and less dangerous?
>
> Good point. If we automate the shutdown sequence...
Of course, there is the question of what happens if the automation fails.
(
On Sat, 28 Sep 2002, Randall Clague wrote:
> >Can be worse. (In perfect 1Hz time throughout:) "Three" "Two" "One"
> >"Fire" "Holy cow!" "CUT!!" BOOOM!!!
>
> I like the one where a Percheron crew member used foul language on
> live nationwide television...
> "3, 2, 1, fire." Smoke fire BOOM!
Is there any data on the different configurations of biprop engines
as far as contamination goes? Is one design more prone to back mixing,
as in kero getting to the cat pack? I was thinking of an engine with
sort of flame holder like the british had used or a different
arrangement of the fuel
On 28 Sep 2002 14:18:18 -0700, David Masten <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>The other thought is - in such a situation, would an orderly shutdown
>actually be quick enough and less dangerous?
Good point. If we automate the shutdown sequence, especially if it's
on the time scale you suggest, any pro
Randall Clague wrote:
> Ah. "ABORT ABORT, ALL STOP! Crap. What happened?"
>
> Yes?
Not quite. Because of the kero issues, you'd want to shut down (and
possibly purge the kero line) while reducing the HTP flow gradually.
This is on a static test, right? In flight, cut and purge the kero on
t
On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 16:37:48 -0400 (EDT), Henry Spencer
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Can be worse. (In perfect 1Hz time throughout:) "Three" "Two" "One"
>"Fire" "Holy cow!" "CUT!!" BOOOM!!!
I like the one where a Percheron crew member used foul language on
live nationwide television. As Gary
On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 13:33:38 -0700, David Weinshenker
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Yeah, that sort of thing... those "yank the prevalves shut and
>ask questions later" type of moments. (Not planning to have them,
>but we had better plan _for_ them...) Could have been a legitimate
>false alarm, lik
On Sat, 2002-09-28 at 13:33, David Weinshenker wrote:
> Randall Clague wrote:
> >
> > On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 11:07:40 -0700, David Weinshenker
> > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >By "emergency scram" I meant the rapid simultaneous shutdown of both
> > >propellants, without "sequencing down" thr
On Sat, 28 Sep 2002, Randall Clague wrote:
> Ah. "ABORT ABORT, ALL STOP! Crap. What happened?"
Can be worse. (In perfect 1Hz time throughout:) "Three" "Two" "One"
"Fire" "Holy cow!" "CUT!!" BOOOM!!!
That's what happened the third time they tried to fire Centaur's twin-RL10
setup -- one eng
Randall Clague wrote:
>
> On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 11:07:40 -0700, David Weinshenker
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >By "emergency scram" I meant the rapid simultaneous shutdown of both
> >propellants, without "sequencing down" through monoprop mode - i.e.,
> >a shutdown during which the catpack co
On Sat, 28 Sep 2002 11:07:40 -0700, David Weinshenker
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>By "emergency scram" I meant the rapid simultaneous shutdown of both
>propellants, without "sequencing down" through monoprop mode - i.e.,
>a shutdown during which the catpack could not be kept operating while
>pu
Randall Clague wrote:
>
> On Fri, 27 Sep 2002 12:33:09 -0700, David Weinshenker
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> >And when the H2O2 plumbing includes a catpack... sounds like we'll need an
> >"oxidizer-trail" shutdown to be safe, keeping the engine running as a monoprop
> >during the shutdown pu
On Fri, 27 Sep 2002 12:33:09 -0700, David Weinshenker
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>And when the H2O2 plumbing includes a catpack... sounds like we'll need an
>"oxidizer-trail" shutdown to be safe, keeping the engine running as a monoprop
>during the shutdown purge of the fuel passage. (Recycle pro
On Fri, 27 Sep 2002 13:20:41 -0500, John Carmack
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>Speck's post on the CATS Board. Also, having not fired a peroxide
>>biprop yet, we're not yet in a position to show Micro-Space that there
>>is an alternative to alcohol.
>
>I emailed the guy that posted on the CATS bo
On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, Michael Wallis wrote:
> That sounds more like a design/practice issue relating to keeping your
> propellants separate. There should be no path for the kero into the
> peroxide.
Since the plumbing systems for the two propellants necessarily meet in the
chamber, there is inevit
Henry Spencer wrote:
> On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, John Carmack wrote:
> > Kerosene works great. The residue problem is only an issue when you are
> > cooling with kerosene, which a peroxide biprop isn't.
>
> No, they're a more general problem than that. During testing, according
> to the Rotary/XC
At 03:21 PM 9/27/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, John Carmack wrote:
> > Kerosene works great. The residue problem is only an issue when you are
> > cooling with kerosene, which a peroxide biprop isn't.
>
>No, they're a more general problem than that. During testing, according
>to t
Henry Spencer wrote:
>
> On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, John Carmack wrote:
> > Kerosene works great. The residue problem is only an issue when you are
> > cooling with kerosene, which a peroxide biprop isn't.
>
> No, they're a more general problem than that. During testing, according
> to the Rotary/XC
On Fri, 27 Sep 2002, John Carmack wrote:
> Kerosene works great. The residue problem is only an issue when you are
> cooling with kerosene, which a peroxide biprop isn't.
No, they're a more general problem than that. During testing, according
to the Rotary/XCOR folk, it's not uncommon to get p
Any word on the strength of peroxide used? Was the tri fuel scheme used
to start combustion?
--
<
Alex Fraser N3DER .
. [EMAIL PROTECTED] ...
[~]_><
___
ERPS-list mailing list
[EMAI
>
>However, these also have issues, such as the fact that they
>consist of a relatively uncharacterized mixture of substances
>and tend to contain heavy, oily constituents which leave non-
>volatile residues... also a bad thing.
Kerosene works great. The residue problem is only an issue when yo
>
>As far as propellant safety is concerned, yes, we know
>peroxide/alcohol is a dangerous combination. I tried to find
>Micro-Space to see if they knew, but they don't have a web presence;
>in fact the only related item a thorough Google search turned was
>Speck's post on the CATS Board. Also,
David Weinshenker wrote:
> These appear to be very "narrow cut" distillates, with closely specified
> volatility and density ranges, evidently intended to be used as ingredients
> in commercial products where well-characterized hydrocarbon fluids are required...
> it occurs to me that they just
On Fri, 27 Sep 2002 10:51:30 -0400 (EDT), Andrew Case
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Peroxide+methanol+leaking valve...
>
>IMO it would be a very bad thing if this lead to people following
>in their path, at least as far as propellant choice is concerned.
>I see a real possibility of something nasty
Andrew Case wrote:
> Congratulations to Micro-Space on their success. I hope they change
> their mind about the fuel, though.
H the question of "fuel for small peroxide biprops"
has come up before... alcohols have been mentioned (and in
some cases, as this one, used), but there is the co
On Thu, 26 Sep 2002, Randall Clague wrote:
> >Micro-Space, Inc. successfully launched and recovered a
> >bipropellant rocket Sept 22, 2002 at the TRA "BALLS" event in the
> >Black Rock Desert. Hydrogen Peroxide and Methyl Alcohol were the
> >fuels used for the sustainer motor in this CRUSADER IV r
Tripoli also allowed Dave Griffith to fly his tribrid, a motor that begins
as a nitrous oxide/plastic hybrid and transitions to N2O/alcohol liquid.
This will likely become Tripoli's first Certified liquid biprop motor.
-Dave McCue
On Thu, 26 Sep 2002, Randall Clague wrote:
> Richard Speck repor
On Thu, 2002-09-26 at 16:50, David Masten wrote:
> On Thu, 2002-09-26 at 16:39, Randall Clague wrote:
>
> > This is very good news for ERPS. As far as I know, this is the first
> > time a biprop has flown at a Tripoli launch. It's specifically
> > prohibited by both the Tripoli Safety Code and
On Thu, 2002-09-26 at 16:39, Randall Clague wrote:
> This is very good news for ERPS. As far as I know, this is the first
> time a biprop has flown at a Tripoli launch. It's specifically
> prohibited by both the Tripoli Safety Code and the Tripoli Research
> Rules. Exemptions have to be approv
Richard Speck reports on the CATS Board (formerly the CATS Prize
Board) that
>Micro-Space, Inc. successfully launched and recovered a
>bipropellant rocket Sept 22, 2002 at the TRA "BALLS" event in the
>Black Rock Desert. Hydrogen Peroxide and Methyl Alcohol were the
>fuels used for the sustainer
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