Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)

2012-03-14 Thread Quentin Anciaux
Hi, 2012/3/14 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: He can't feel the split in my symmetrical room thought experiment but he can see it, he can see his copy as if in a mirror moving and talking just as he does, and if you exchanged

Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)

2012-03-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 12 Mar 2012, at 21:01, meekerdb wrote (to acw): On 3/11/2012 11:38 PM, acw wrote: Some of those beliefs can be greatly justified by evidence, while others are unjustified. All of them are provably unprovable, even given the right evidence. Some of them can be believed with high

Re: First person indeterminacy (Re: COMP theology)

2012-03-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 12 Mar 2012, at 08:04, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/12/2012 2:53 AM, acw wrote: On 3/12/2012 05:43, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi, Could it be that we are tacitly assuming that our notion of Virtual is such that there always exists a standard what is the Real version? If it is not

Re: First person indeterminacy (Re: COMP theology)

2012-03-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 12 Mar 2012, at 09:49, Quentin Anciaux wrote: 2012/3/12 Stephen P. King stephe...@charter.net On 3/12/2012 3:49 AM, acw wrote: On 3/12/2012 08:04, Stephen P. King wrote: On 3/12/2012 2:53 AM, acw wrote: On 3/12/2012 05:43, Stephen P. King wrote: Hi, Could it be that we are tacitly

Re: First person indeterminacy (Re: COMP theology)

2012-03-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 12 Mar 2012, at 21:21, meekerdb wrote (to Stepehen King): Stephen King: One thing that I have found in the last few days is that it is impossible to define the computational operations of deleting, copying and pasting onto/into topological manifolds unless one is willing to give up

Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)

2012-03-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 13 Mar 2012, at 02:16, meekerdb wrote: On 3/12/2012 10:30 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 12 Mar 2012, at 05:50, John Clark wrote: On Thu, Mar 8, 2012 at 1:52 PM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: Do they really have to state that they assume existence exists? You mean that

Re: The Brain Minds Whether We Believe in Free Will or Not

2012-03-14 Thread Stathis Papaioannou
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 9:00 AM, Craig Weinberg whatsons...@gmail.com wrote: http://pss.sagepub.com/content/22/5/613.abstract Abstract        The feeling of being in control of one’s own actions is a strong subjective experience. However, discoveries in psychology and neuroscience challenge

Re: For Evgenii: the-unavoidable-cost-of-computation-revealed

2012-03-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 13 Mar 2012, at 18:20, meekerdb wrote: On 3/13/2012 6:48 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 13 Mar 2012, at 01:43, Russell Standish wrote: http://www.nature.com/news/the-unavoidable-cost-of-computation-revealed-1.10186 This about experimentally testing Landauer's principle that computation

Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)

2012-03-14 Thread John Clark
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: What you're telling is that a question like what is the probabilty that events happens to me in one second ? is not a legitimate question, No, in this case that is a perfectly legitimate question because in the above you

Re: The Brain Minds Whether We Believe in Free Will or Not

2012-03-14 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Mar 14, 11:31 am, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: http://pss.sagepub.com/content/22/5/613.abstract Abstract         The feeling of being in control of one’s own actions is a strong subjective experience. And the reason we feel that way is because we can't predict what the

Re: First person indeterminacy (Re: COMP theology)

2012-03-14 Thread meekerdb
On 3/14/2012 7:12 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 12 Mar 2012, at 21:21, meekerdb wrote (to Stepehen King): Stephen King: One thing that I have found in the last few days is that it is impossible to define the computational operations of deleting, copying and pasting onto/into topological

Re: The Brain Minds Whether We Believe in Free Will or Not

2012-03-14 Thread meekerdb
On 3/14/2012 7:21 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 13, 11:15 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 3/13/2012 3:00 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: http://pss.sagepub.com/content/22/5/613.abstract Abstract The feeling of being in control of one�s own actions is a strong

Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)

2012-03-14 Thread David Nyman
On 14 March 2012 15:12, John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com wrote: No, in this case that is a perfectly legitimate question because in the above you didn't say anything about making numerous copies of yourself so in the quotation it is clear who me is, and that is the case with most normal

Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)

2012-03-14 Thread Quentin Anciaux
2012/3/14 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 Quentin Anciaux allco...@gmail.com wrote: What you're telling is that a question like what is the probabilty that events happens to me in one second ? is not a legitimate question, No, in this case that is a perfectly

Re: The Brain Minds Whether We Believe in Free Will or Not

2012-03-14 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Mar 14, 12:32 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 3/14/2012 7:21 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 13, 11:15 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net  wrote: On 3/13/2012 3:00 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote: http://pss.sagepub.com/content/22/5/613.abstract Abstract           The

Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)

2012-03-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Mar 2012, at 07:57, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi, 2012/3/14 John Clark johnkcl...@gmail.com I define the guy in Helsinki by whoever he believes he is, in Helsinki. I don't need to define who he is, Yes you do! You are asking me for probabilities but before I can do that I need to

Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)

2012-03-14 Thread meekerdb
On 3/14/2012 10:58 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: I never localize consciousness. Only persons. And yes, it is pretty obvious that person can locate themselves in a local relative way, like saying that yesterday I was in Tokyo, today in I am in Helsinki and tomorrow I will be in Moscow, if I decide

Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)

2012-03-14 Thread meekerdb
On 3/14/2012 10:58 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: Wow! OK then, we progress. I am glad that you agree that you will see something. That was unclear. But do you agree that you do know something, or at least that you can have great expectations, given the hypothesis, which we have to take as true for

Re: The Brain Minds Whether We Believe in Free Will or Not

2012-03-14 Thread meekerdb
On 3/14/2012 10:08 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 14, 12:32 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 3/14/2012 7:21 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 13, 11:15 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.netwrote: On 3/13/2012 3:00 PM, Craig Weinberg wrote:

Re: For Evgenii: the-unavoidable-cost-of-computation-revealed

2012-03-14 Thread meekerdb
On 3/14/2012 11:51 AM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 13.03.2012 20:59 meekerdb said the following: On 3/13/2012 12:44 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: On 13.03.2012 20:32 meekerdb said the following: On 3/13/2012 12:26 PM, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: ... In my collection I have this quote for example

Re: First person indeterminacy (Re: COMP theology)

2012-03-14 Thread Bruno Marchal
On 14 Mar 2012, at 17:30, meekerdb wrote: On 3/14/2012 7:12 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 12 Mar 2012, at 21:21, meekerdb wrote (to Stepehen King): Stephen King: One thing that I have found in the last few days is that it is impossible to define the computational operations of

Re: Theology or not theology (Re: COMP theology)

2012-03-14 Thread David Nyman
On 14 March 2012 18:32, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: He uses also bad rhetorical tricks by attributing me intention, and seems even aggressive sometimes, or is it an impression? Vous êtes ironique, je l'espère! David On 14 Mar 2012, at 07:57, Quentin Anciaux wrote: Hi,

Re: The Brain Minds Whether We Believe in Free Will or Not

2012-03-14 Thread John Mikes
Craig and Brent: Free Will is not a matter of faith. One does not believe IN it, or not. (Of course this is a position in my (agnostic) worldview - my 'belief' ha ha). We are part of an infinite complexity with limited capabilities to accept influence from the infinite factors (if those ARE

Re: First person indeterminacy (Re: COMP theology)

2012-03-14 Thread John Mikes
Brent and Bruno: you both have statements in this endless discussion about processing ideas of quantum computers. I would be happy to read about ONE that works, not a s a potentiality, but as a real tool, the function of which is understood and APPLIED. (Here, on Earth). John Mikes On Mon, Mar

Re: The Brain Minds Whether We Believe in Free Will or Not

2012-03-14 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Mar 14, 2:52 pm, meekerdb meeke...@verizon.net wrote: On 3/14/2012 10:08 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 14, 12:32 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net  wrote: On 3/14/2012 7:21 AM, Craig Weinberg wrote: On Mar 13, 11:15 pm, meekerdbmeeke...@verizon.net    wrote: On 3/13/2012

Re: The Brain Minds Whether We Believe in Free Will or Not

2012-03-14 Thread Craig Weinberg
On Mar 14, 4:34 pm, John Mikes jami...@gmail.com wrote: Craig and Brent: Free Will is not a matter of faith. One does not believe IN it, or not. (Of course this is a position in my (agnostic) worldview - my 'belief' ha ha). We are part of an infinite complexity with limited capabilities to

Re: For Evgenii: the-unavoidable-cost-of-computation-revealed

2012-03-14 Thread Russell Standish
On Wed, Mar 14, 2012 at 07:51:13PM +0100, Evgenii Rudnyi wrote: Then the thermodynamic entropy is subjective. Try to convince in this engineers who develop engines, or chemists who compute equilibria, and see what happens. I take Denbigh Denbigh's position that entropy is not subjective,