Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 23 May 2019, at 01:14, Russell Standish wrote: > > On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 03:14:43PM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> 2147 Breaking News: >> Alfred has used a very cheap teleportation device to go on Mars. He seemed >> OK and claimed he has not changed, but his wife believes he lost hi

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Wed, May 22, 2019 at 03:14:43PM +0200, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > 2147 Breaking News: > Alfred has used a very cheap teleportation device to go on Mars. He seemed OK > and claimed he has not changed, but his wife believes he lost his sense of > humour. > An inquest revealed that the the substi

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 21 May 2019, at 19:56, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/21/2019 12:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 20 May 2019, at 21:57, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/20/2019 3:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: For the loss of it, I w

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/21/2019 12:31 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 20 May 2019, at 21:57, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote: On 5/20/2019 3:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: For the loss of it, I will have to read the 3p report “the guy teleported himself to Mars and die”. For the change of consciousness,

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 6:43 PM 'Brent Meeker' < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: *>> You said consciousness is how information feels to be processed. What >> if that information is only 1 bit (like is my hand being burned or not)?* > > > > First, I don't think that's 1bit. Which hand, w

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 20 May 2019, at 12:09, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 5:01:20 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 16 May 2019, at 14:52, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> This is what I call one form of consciousness denial >> >> https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 20 May 2019, at 21:57, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/20/2019 3:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> For the loss of it, I will have to read the 3p report “the guy teleported >> himself to Mars and die”. For the change of consciousness, well, if you wake >> up on M

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 20 May 2019, at 21:35, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/20/2019 3:23 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >>> On 17 May 2019, at 22:52, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/17/2019 7:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: No, with mechanism

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/20/2019 3:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: For the loss of it, I will have to read the 3p report “the guy teleported himself to Mars and die”. For the change of consciousness, well, if you wake up on Mars with a headache, but with a feeling that something is wrong, it is up to you to explai

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/20/2019 3:23 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 17 May 2019, at 22:52, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List wrote: On 5/17/2019 7:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: No, with mechanism, mind supervenes locally on matter, but matter supervenes on the mind of all universal machines, which compete be

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 18 May 2019, at 00:43, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/17/2019 2:16 PM, Jason Resch wrote: >> >> >> On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 6:08 PM John Clark > > wrote: >> On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 4:54 PM Jason Resch >

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 17 May 2019, at 23:02, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/17/2019 7:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But imagine that you are sent, without knowing, in a virtual reality. Then, if it is rough, you will surely guess that you are in a virtual reality, lik

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 17 May 2019, at 22:57, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/17/2019 7:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > But then it seems the theory talks about "preserving consciousness", a > first-person...what? perception that I'm me? What perception could you > have t

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 17 May 2019, at 22:52, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/17/2019 7:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> No, with mechanism, mind supervenes locally on matter, but matter supervenes >> on the mind of all universal machines, which compete below our substitution

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 5:01:20 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 16 May 2019, at 14:52, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > This is what I call one form of *consciousness denial* > > https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/13/the-consciousness-deniers/ > > in that information processi

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 16 May 2019, at 14:52, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > This is what I call one form of consciousness denial > > https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/13/the-consciousness-deniers/ > > > in that information process

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/17/2019 2:16 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 6:08 PM John Clark > wrote: On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 4:54 PM Jason Resch mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote: /> we need to demonstrate that the elbow isn't consciousness. E.g.,

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Friday, May 17, 2019, John Clark wrote: > On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 5:37 PM Jason Resch wrote: > > *> I was referring to the reflexes of your arm, before any signal gets to >> your brain. So here we have both information processing (small number of >> bits) and intelligent behavior (withdrawin

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 5:37 PM Jason Resch wrote: *> I was referring to the reflexes of your arm, before any signal gets to > your brain. So here we have both information processing (small number of > bits) and intelligent behavior (withdrawing an appendage from a flame), so > can we rule out t

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 5:33 PM John Clark wrote: > On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 5:16 PM Jason Resch wrote: > > *> You said consciousness is how information feels to be processed. * >> > > Yes. > > >> *> What if that information is only 1 bit (like is my hand being burned >> or not)?* >> > > I can't

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Fri, May 17, 2019 at 5:16 PM Jason Resch wrote: *> You said consciousness is how information feels to be processed. * > Yes. > *> What if that information is only 1 bit (like is my hand being burned or > not)?* > I can't speak with any authority about your hand but if it was my hand I woul

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 6:08 PM John Clark wrote: > On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 4:54 PM Jason Resch wrote: > > *> we need to demonstrate that the elbow isn't consciousness. E.g., it >> can exhibit reflexes to simuli without involving the brain.* > > > How would that prove anything? What proof is th

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/17/2019 7:21 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But imagine that you are sent, without knowing, in a virtual reality. Then, if it is rough, you will surely guess that you are in a virtual reality, like in a lucid dream, or like in a video game. This is incoherent.  If you are the series of compu

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/17/2019 7:14 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: But then it seems the theory talks about "preserving consciousness", a first-person...what? perception that I'm me?  What perception could you have that told you your consciousness had changed or been lost? It is the difference between going out o

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/17/2019 7:01 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: No, with mechanism, mind supervenes locally on matter, but matter supervenes on the mind of all universal machines, which compete below our substitution level, and that explains directly the “many-world” appearances of matter and consciousness, w

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 16 May 2019, at 03:43, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/15/2019 11:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 13 May 2019, at 22:20, Jason Resch >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 6:08 AM Bruno Marchal >>

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 16 May 2019, at 03:36, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/15/2019 11:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 13 May 2019, at 21:28, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/13/2019 4:50 AM, B

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 16 May 2019, at 01:54, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 4:53 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > On 14 May 2019, at 00:34, Bruce Kellett > wrote: >> That may well be the case, but I fail to see the relevance of such an >> o

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/16/2019 1:54 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 9:00 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 5/16/2019 5:52 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: This is what I call one form of *consciousness denial* https://www.nybo

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 4:54 PM Jason Resch wrote: *> we need to demonstrate that the elbow isn't consciousness. E.g., it can > exhibit reflexes to simuli without involving the brain.* How would that prove anything? What proof is there that a reflexe or any other observable behavior has anythi

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 9:00 AM 'Brent Meeker' < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: * > You still need to explain why your elbow isn't conscious.* > According to my consciousness theory my elbow is the seat of my consciousness, specifically my left elbow. I maintain that one armed men are

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 9:00 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > On 5/16/2019 5:52 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > This is what I call one form of *consciousness denial* > > https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/13/the-consciousness-deniers

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/16/2019 5:52 AM, Philip Thrift wrote: This is what I call one form of *consciousness denial* https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/13/the-consciousness-deniers/ in that information processing absent actual /first-class/ entities of qualia (or experiences) can only produce zombies. One

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

This is what I call one form of *consciousness denial* https://www.nybooks.com/daily/2018/03/13/the-consciousness-deniers/ in that information processing absent actual *first-class* entities of qualia (or experiences) can only produce zombies. One needs information processing operating

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

The question is why does it supervene on the brain and not on the elbow.  What about the brain causes it to "make experiences"?  Most scientists think it is because the brain does computations, i.e. information processing, which is more extensive and complex that the elbow does.  Which leads to

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Wednesday, May 15, 2019 at 6:55:08 PM UTC-5, Bruce wrote: > > mind supervenes on the brain > Bruce > The heart* pumps blood. The brain pumps experiences. The brain is an experience pump! * Actually it's more complex: blood cells are made in bone marrow signaled by the kidneys and recycled

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/15/2019 11:45 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 13 May 2019, at 22:20, Jason Resch > wrote: On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 6:08 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: On 9 May 2019, at 20:47, Jason Resch mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/15/2019 11:18 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 13 May 2019, at 21:28, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 5/13/2019 4:50 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 May 2019, at 17:36, Jason Resch > wrote: On Fri, M

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Thu, May 16, 2019 at 4:53 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > On 14 May 2019, at 00:34, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > That may well be the case, but I fail to see the relevance of such an > observation. My consciousness supervenes on my brain as it is now — > > > With mechanism, and I think with QM, your b

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 14 May 2019, at 00:34, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 6:08 AM Jason Resch > wrote: > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 11:30 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > From: Jason Resch mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> >> On Fri, May 10

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 13 May 2019, at 22:20, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 6:08 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > >> On 9 May 2019, at 20:47, Jason Resch > > wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 12:06 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everythi

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 13 May 2019, at 21:30, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/13/2019 4:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 11 May 2019, at 01:07, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/10/2019 8:17 AM, Ja

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 13 May 2019, at 21:28, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/13/2019 4:50 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 10 May 2019, at 17:36, Jason Resch >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:02 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything Li

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 13 May 2019, at 20:25, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/13/2019 4:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> We must assume the existence of a physical reality, sure, but we don’t need >> to assume that the physical reality is fundamental or independent of the >> mind of th

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 13 May 2019, at 08:31, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Sunday, May 12, 2019 at 2:43:39 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 9 May 2019, at 19:57, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: > >> Is a theory of dark matter already lurking within TOA (Theory Of >> Arithmetic) ready to be derived? >

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Wed, May 15, 2019 at 2:04 AM Jason Resch wrote: > On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 9:34 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > >> On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 12:07 PM Jason Resch >> wrote: >> >>> >>> Do you not think counterfactuals are useful in evaluating theories? >>> >> >> Not particularly. What use is it to sp

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 9:34 PM Bruce Kellett wrote: > On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 12:07 PM Jason Resch wrote: > >> On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 5:34 PM Bruce Kellett >> wrote: >> >>> On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 6:08 AM Jason Resch >>> wrote: >>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 11:30 PM Bruce Kellett < b

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 12:07 PM Jason Resch wrote: > On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 5:34 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > >> On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 6:08 AM Jason Resch wrote: >> >>> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 11:30 PM Bruce Kellett < >>> bhkell...@optusnet.com.au> wrote: >>> From: Jason Resch >>>

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 5:34 PM Bruce Kellett wrote: > On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 6:08 AM Jason Resch wrote: > >> On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 11:30 PM Bruce Kellett >> wrote: >> >>> From: Jason Resch >>> >>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 12:26 AM Bruce Kellett < >>> bhkell...@optusnet.com.au> wrote: >>> >>

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Tue, May 14, 2019 at 6:08 AM Jason Resch wrote: > On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 11:30 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > >> From: Jason Resch >> >> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 12:26 AM Bruce Kellett >> wrote: >> >>> From: Jason Resch >>> >> >> >>> To clarify, let me enumerate stages of the argument such th

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 2:28 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > On 5/13/2019 4:50 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 10 May 2019, at 17:36, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:02 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everythi

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Mon, May 13, 2019 at 6:08 AM Bruno Marchal wrote: > > On 9 May 2019, at 20:47, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 12:06 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On 5/9/2019 3:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 3 May 2019

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Sun, May 12, 2019 at 11:30 PM Bruce Kellett wrote: > From: Jason Resch > > On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 12:26 AM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > >> From: Jason Resch >> > > >> To clarify, let me enumerate stages of the argument such that we can be >> clear which one we are speaking of: >> >> 1. Your br

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/13/2019 4:54 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 11 May 2019, at 01:07, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 5/10/2019 8:17 AM, Jason Resch wrote: If the theory is to make any sense, any reference to "the universe" must be consiste

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/13/2019 4:50 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 10 May 2019, at 17:36, Jason Resch > wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:02 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 5/9/2019 7:58 PM, Jason Resch wrote:

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/13/2019 4:29 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: We must assume the existence of a physical reality, sure, but we don’t need to assume that the physical reality is fundamental or independent of the mind of the universal numbers (which requires only arithmetic). If we /*must*/ assume it then that'

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 11 May 2019, at 01:07, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/10/2019 8:17 AM, Jason Resch wrote: >> If the theory is to make any sense, any reference to "the universe" must be >> consistent with every other reference to "the universe". >> >> >> Einstein's paper on s

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 10 May 2019, at 17:36, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:02 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> > wrote: > > > On 5/9/2019 7:58 PM, Jason Resch wrote: >> >> >> On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 7:47 PM Bruce Kellett >

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 10 May 2019, at 17:17, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 12:26 AM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > From: Jason Resch mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> >> On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 7:47 PM Bruce Kellett > > wrote: >> On Fri

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 10 May 2019, at 08:54, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Thursday, May 9, 2019 at 2:50:49 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 2:21 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > > wrote: > > > On 5/9/2019 11:47 AM, Jason Resch wrote: >> >> >> On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 12:06 PM

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 10 May 2019, at 07:26, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > From: Jason Resch mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> >> On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 7:47 PM Bruce Kellett > > wrote: >> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:18 AM Jason Resch > > wrote: >> On Thu, May 9,

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 10 May 2019, at 03:22, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:54 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> > wrote: > On 5/9/2019 5:18 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > That all subjectively indistinguishable computations going through >

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 10 May 2019, at 02:46, Bruce Kellett wrote: > > On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:18 AM Jason Resch > wrote: > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 7:02 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 9:36 AM Jason Resch

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 10 May 2019, at 01:35, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 3:09 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> > wrote: > > > On 5/9/2019 12:50 PM, Jason Resch wrote: >> >> >> On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 2:21 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everythi

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 9 May 2019, at 20:47, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 12:06 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > mailto:everything-list@googlegroups.com>> > wrote: > > > On 5/9/2019 3:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 3 May 2019, at 15:27, Terren Suydam >>

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Sunday, May 12, 2019 at 2:43:39 PM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 9 May 2019, at 19:57, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > Is a theory of dark matter already lurking within TOA (Theory Of > Arithmetic) ready to be derived? > > > The goal was to explain where consciousness and matter com

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

From: *Jason Resch* mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 12:26 AM Bruce Kellett mailto:bhkell...@optusnet.com.au>> wrote: From: *Jason Resch* mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> To clarify, let me enumerate stages of the argument such that we can be clear which one we a

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 9 May 2019, at 19:57, Philip Thrift wrote: > > > > On Thursday, May 9, 2019 at 8:22:38 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > >> On 9 May 2019, at 13:03, Philip Thrift > >> wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thursday, May 9, 2019 at 5:34:29 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 3 May 2019, at 16:10

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 9 May 2019, at 19:40, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/9/2019 4:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 4 May 2019, at 02:28, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/3/2019 1:35 PM, Terren

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 9 May 2019, at 19:38, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/9/2019 4:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 4 May 2019, at 02:32, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> On 5/3/2019 2:00 PM, cloudv

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 9 May 2019, at 19:27, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/9/2019 3:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 3 May 2019, at 19:09, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List >>> >> > wrote: >>> >>> I think that is right. But when you

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 9 May 2019, at 19:06, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: > > > > On 5/9/2019 3:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >>> On 3 May 2019, at 15:27, Terren Suydam >> > wrote: >>> >>> One way to get around this is to hold that consciousness is associated w

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

> On 9 May 2019, at 16:23, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 5:22 AM Bruno Marchal > wrote: > >> On 3 May 2019, at 15:27, Terren Suydam > > wrote: >> >> One way to get around this is to hold that consciousness is asso

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/10/2019 4:36 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 6:07 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 5/10/2019 8:17 AM, Jason Resch wrote: If the theory is to make any sense, any reference to "the universe"

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 6:07 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > On 5/10/2019 8:17 AM, Jason Resch wrote: > > If the theory is to make any sense, any reference to "the universe" must >> be consistent with every other reference to "the universe". >

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/10/2019 8:17 AM, Jason Resch wrote: If the theory is to make any sense, any reference to "the universe" must be consistent with every other reference to "the universe". Einstein's paper on special relativity begins with one concept of time, and by the end of the paper refin

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 5:22 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > On 5/10/2019 6:59 AM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 7:54 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On 5/9/2019

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/10/2019 6:59 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 7:54 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 5/9/2019 5:18 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > That all subjectively indistinguishable computations going through > th

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 1:02 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > On 5/9/2019 7:58 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 7:47 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > >> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:18 AM Jason Resch >> wrote: >> >>> On Thu, May

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 12:26 AM Bruce Kellett wrote: > From: Jason Resch > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 7:47 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > >> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:18 AM Jason Resch >> wrote: >> >>> On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 7:02 PM Bruce Kellett >>> wrote: >>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 9:36

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 8:23 PM Bruce Kellett wrote: > On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:54 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > >> On 5/9/2019 5:18 PM, Jason Resch wrote: >> > >> > That all subjectively indistinguishable computations going through >> > tha

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 7:54 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > On 5/9/2019 5:18 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > That all subjectively indistinguishable computations going through > > that state are a possibility means the consciousness cannot iden

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Thursday, May 9, 2019 at 2:50:49 PM UTC-5, Jason wrote: > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 2:21 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everyth...@googlegroups.com > wrote: > >> >> >> On 5/9/2019 11:47 AM, Jason Resch wrote: >> >> >> >> On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 12:06 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everythi

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/9/2019 7:58 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 7:47 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:18 AM Jason Resch mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 7:02 PM Bruce Kellett mailto:bhkellet...@

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

From: *Jason Resch* mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 7:47 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:18 AM Jason Resch mailto:jasonre...@gmail.com>> wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 7:02 PM Bruce Kellett mailto:bhkelle

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 7:47 PM Bruce Kellett wrote: > On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:18 AM Jason Resch wrote: > >> On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 7:02 PM Bruce Kellett >> wrote: >> >>> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 9:36 AM Jason Resch >>> wrote: >>> On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 3:09 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Ev

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:54 AM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > On 5/9/2019 5:18 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > That all subjectively indistinguishable computations going through > > that state are a possibility means the consciousness cannot identi

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/9/2019 5:18 PM, Jason Resch wrote: That all subjectively indistinguishable computations going through that state are a possibility means the consciousness cannot identify itself with any one particular thread of computation. In this sense that consciousness is not the same as one of t

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 10:18 AM Jason Resch wrote: > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 7:02 PM Bruce Kellett > wrote: > >> On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 9:36 AM Jason Resch wrote: >> >>> >>> On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 3:09 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < >>> everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: >>> >>>

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 7:02 PM Bruce Kellett wrote: > On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 9:36 AM Jason Resch wrote: > >> >> On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 3:09 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < >> everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: >> >>> >>> Would it make a difference if they compute the same function

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Fri, May 10, 2019 at 9:36 AM Jason Resch wrote: > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 3:09 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > >> >> Would it make a difference if they compute the same function? >> > > Not from the perspective of the function. If the comp

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 3:09 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > On 5/9/2019 12:50 PM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 2:21 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On 5/9/2019

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/9/2019 12:50 PM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 2:21 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 5/9/2019 11:47 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 12:06 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List mailto:e

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 2:21 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > On 5/9/2019 11:47 AM, Jason Resch wrote: > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 12:06 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < > everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > >> >> >> On 5/9/2019

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/9/2019 11:47 AM, Jason Resch wrote: On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 12:06 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 5/9/2019 3:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 3 May 2019, at 15:27, Terren Suydam mailto:terren.suy...@gmail.com>> wrote

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Thu, May 9, 2019 at 12:06 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List < everything-list@googlegroups.com> wrote: > > > On 5/9/2019 3:22 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 3 May 2019, at 15:27, Terren Suydam wrote: > > One way to get around this is to hold that consciousness is associated > with the w

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On Thursday, May 9, 2019 at 8:22:38 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: > > > On 9 May 2019, at 13:03, Philip Thrift > > wrote: > > > > On Thursday, May 9, 2019 at 5:34:29 AM UTC-5, Bruno Marchal wrote: >> >> >> On 3 May 2019, at 16:10, cloud...@gmail.com wrote: >> >> >> >> The general response here

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/9/2019 4:52 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 4 May 2019, at 02:32, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 5/3/2019 2:00 PM, cloudver...@gmail.com wrote: On Friday, May 3, 2019 at 3:26:26 PM UTC-5, Brent wrote: On 5/3/2019 12:00 PM

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/9/2019 4:59 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 4 May 2019, at 02:28, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: On 5/3/2019 1:35 PM, Terren Suydam wrote: On Fri, May 3, 2019 at 4:19 PM 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List

Re: Aeon: "AIs should have the same ethical protections as animals"

On 5/9/2019 3:38 AM, Bruno Marchal wrote: On 3 May 2019, at 19:09, 'Brent Meeker' via Everything List > wrote: I think that is right.  But when you consider some simplified cases, e.g. a computation written out on paper (or Bruno's movie graph) it

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