Some people here might find of interest my comments on the situation in
the title, posted in this comment here:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3346421&cid=42430475
After citing Alan Kay's OOPSLA 1997 "The Computer Revolution Has Not
Happened Yet" speech, the key point I made there is:
"Yet
On 12/30/2012 10:49 PM, Paul D. Fernhout wrote:
Some people here might find of interest my comments on the situation
in the title, posted in this comment here:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=3346421&cid=42430475
After citing Alan Kay's OOPSLA 1997 "The Computer Revolution Has Not
Happened
My take is that crafting software is essentially creating a formal system. No
doubt there is some clean, normalized way to construct each one, but given that
the work is being done by humans, a large number of less than optimal elements
find their way into the system. Since everyone is basically
--------------
> * From: * BGB ;
> * To: * ;
> * Subject: * Re: [fonc] Linus Chews Up Kernel Maintainer For Introducing
> Userspace Bug - Slashdot
> * Sent: * Mon, Dec 31, 2012 7:32:31 AM
>
> On 12/30/2012 10:49 PM, Paul D. Fernhout wrote:
> > Some peopl
I don't think a more formalized language really gets around the problem. If
that were true, we'd have already fallen back to the most consistent, yet
simple languages available, such as assembler. But on top of these we build
significantly more complex systems, bent by our own internal variation
On 12/31/12 10:30 AM, Paul Homer wrote:
Now I know that sounds weird, but not if one accepts that a clunky,
ugly language like COBOL was actually very successful. Lots of stuff
was written, much of it still running. Its own excessive verbosity
helps in making it fixable by a broader group of pe
"If there are contradictions in the design, the program shouldn't compile."
How can a compiler know how to make sense of domain specific contradictions?
I can only imagine the challenges we would face if compilers operated in
this way.
-Carl
___
On 12/31/12 12:25 PM, Carl Gundel wrote:
"If there are contradictions in the design, the program shouldn't
compile."
How can a compiler know how to make sense of domain specific
contradictions? I can only imagine the challenges we would face if
compilers operated in this way.
In the cas
> In general, I'm imagining more programmers adopting languages like Agda,
> Coq, and ATS, and elaborating their compilers and runtimes to be practical
> for programming in the large.
>
The latest Mathematica does quite a good job of this. Also, the
language Julia is really useful on this front.
Most programs are models of our irrational world. Reflections of rather
informal systems that are inherently ambiguous and contradictory, just like our
species. Nothing short of 'intelligence' could validate that those
types of rules match their intended usage in the real world. If we don't
bui
+1
From: fonc-boun...@vpri.org [mailto:fonc-boun...@vpri.org] On Behalf Of Paul
Homer
Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 3:09 PM
To: fonc@vpri.org
Subject: Re: [fonc] Linus Chews Up Kernel Maintainer For Introducing
Userspace Bug - Slashdot
Most programs are models of our irrational world
om: * Marcus G. Daniels ;
* To: * ;
* Subject: * Re: [fonc] Linus Chews Up Kernel Maintainer For Introducing
Userspace Bug - Slashdot
* Sent: * Mon, Dec 31, 2012 7:50:13 PM
On 12/31/12 12:25 PM, Carl Gundel wrote:
“If there are contradictions in the design, the program shouldn't compile.
On 12/31/12 2:32 AM, BGB wrote:
in this case, I think Torvalds was right, however, he could have handled
it a little more gracefully.
code breaking changes are generally something to be avoided wherever
possible, which seems to be the main issue here.
While many people posting in the slashdot
On 12/31/12 3:09 PM, Paul Homer wrote:
Most programs are models of our irrational world. Reflections of rather
informal systems that are inherently ambiguous and contradictory, just
like our species. Nothing short of 'intelligence' could validate that
those types of rules match their intended usa
On Mon, Dec 31, 2012 at 12:24 PM, Paul D. Fernhout
wrote:
> On 12/31/12 2:32 AM, BGB wrote:
>>
>> in this case, I think Torvalds was right, however, he could have handled
>> it a little more gracefully.
>>
>> code breaking changes are generally something to be avoided wherever
>> possible, which s
"Carl Gundel" writes:
> “If there are contradictions in the design, the program shouldn't
> compile.”
>
>
>
> How can a compiler know how to make sense of domain specific
> contradictions? I can only imagine the challenges we would face if
> compilers operated in this way.
Contradictions are
On Dec 31, 2012, at 1:21 PM, "Pascal J. Bourguignon"
wrote:
>
> Now we know that a given formal system cannot be at the same time
> complete and consistent, but nothing prevents an automatic system to
> work with an incomplete system or an inconsistent system (or even a
> system that's both inc
On 12/31/12 1:44 PM, Paul D. Fernhout wrote:
So, it was a meta-bug in that sense about an unexpected meaning shift
when a number leaked beyond a boundary that was supposed to contain it.
[..]
I'm not sure what sort of automated systems could deal with that kind
of unexpected semantic shift? St
On 12/31/12 8:10 PM, Marcus G. Daniels wrote:
On 12/31/12 1:44 PM, Paul D. Fernhout wrote:
So, it was a meta-bug in that sense about an unexpected meaning shift
when a number leaked beyond a boundary that was supposed to contain it.
[..]
I'm not sure what sort of automated systems could deal w
On 12/31/12 8:30 PM, Paul D. Fernhout wrote:
So, I guess another meta-level bug in the Linux Kernel is that it is
written in C, which does not support certain complexity management
features, and there is no clear upgrade path from that because C++ has
always had serious linking problems.
But th
On 12/31/2012 10:47 PM, Marcus G. Daniels wrote:
On 12/31/12 8:30 PM, Paul D. Fernhout wrote:
So, I guess another meta-level bug in the Linux Kernel is that it is
written in C, which does not support certain complexity management
features, and there is no clear upgrade path from that because C+
>-Original Message-
>From: Pascal J. Bourguignon
>Sent: Monday, December 31, 2012 4:22 PM
>To: Fundamentals of New Computing
>Subject: Re: [fonc] Linus Chews Up Kernel Maintainer For Introducing Userspace
>Bug - Slashdot
>
>"Carl Gundel" writes:
>
&
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