Re: [FRIAM] Sperm pelotons; article in Nature

2010-03-29 Thread Hugh Trenchard
Thanks Eric for taking the time to look through my post. For Nick's last post, I am not entirely sure what a genefur is, although it sounds like it is a reference to an inherent genetic trait, as you also discuss. Yes, I agree it will help my argument if I hone in more closely on what I mean

Re: [FRIAM] Sperm pelotons; article in Nature

2010-03-29 Thread Douglas Roberts
Does anybody besides me have problems getting past the term sperm pelotons without having bizarre mental images of teeny little bicycles, spandex, and colorful itty bitty jerseys? --Doug On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 9:42 AM, Hugh Trenchard htrench...@shaw.ca wrote: Thanks Eric for taking the time

Re: [FRIAM] Sperm pelotons; article in Nature

2010-03-29 Thread Nicholas Thompson
Hugh, I yield to no man in my ignorance of subject we are talking about. However, two points: The term genefur is one I use to remind myself (and anyone who happens to be listening) that the common expression, a gene for, (as in a gene for blue eyes or a gene for prostate cancer is deeply

Re: [FRIAM] Sperm pelotons; article in Nature

2010-03-29 Thread Nicholas Thompson
Doug, Clearly you have never looked closely at Sperm under a microscope. We have made enormous strides in micro-visualization technology in the last generation. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University (nthomp...@clarku.edu)

Re: [FRIAM] Sperm pelotons; article in Nature

2010-03-29 Thread Roger Critchlow
Hugh -- I like the analysis very much. There should be other cases of velocity sorting in microbiology and perhaps in developmental biology, any place where cells are potentially crowded and need to get some where. I think that sustainability for sperm is an oxymoron -- they have fixed food

Re: [FRIAM] Sperm pelotons; article in Nature

2010-03-29 Thread Douglas Roberts
promiscuous peromyscus spermatozoa cycles Nope, I'm afraid the fixation remains... --Doug On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 10:59 AM, Roger Critchlow r...@elf.org wrote: Hugh -- I like the analysis very much. There should be other cases of velocity sorting in microbiology and perhaps in

Re: [FRIAM] Sperm pelotons; article in Nature

2010-03-29 Thread ERIC P. CHARLES
But Nick, Hugh's point is that we DO NOT need trait-group selection to explain the clustering sperm. We merely need sperm to swim in the same direction, AND have a variety of abilities. Given that alone, Hugh thinks he can prove, sperm will cluster based on their swimming abilities (which he calls

Re: [FRIAM] Sperm pelotons; article in Nature

2010-03-29 Thread Steve Smith
Nick - Doug, Clearly you have never looked closely at Sperm under a microscope. That is not what his middle school science teacher told me! - Steve FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays

Re: [FRIAM] Sperm pelotons; article in Nature

2010-03-29 Thread Pamela McCorduck
This man is a treasure. Yeah, you, Doug. On Mar 29, 2010, at 2:30 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote: Gentlemen, It was certainly not my intention to hijack this thread... --Doug On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 12:22 PM, Steve Smith sasm...@swcp.com wrote: Nick - Doug, Clearly you have never looked

Re: [FRIAM] Sperm pelotons; article in Nature

2010-03-29 Thread Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky
To Hugh and the peloton discussion group, I did a little riding in spandex and have a small sense of the dynamics inside a peloton. I always thought it a marvelous experience while participating. The most striking oddity for me about the discussion is the focus on the group concept.

Re: [FRIAM] Sperm pelotons; article in Nature

2010-03-29 Thread Nicholas Thompson
Eric, That much I figured out. I need to know more about the structure of cycle races. I thought it was the case that races contained teams and that the team that produced a winning rider won the race, even if all the other team members died in the effort. Not true? if it IS true than

Re: [FRIAM] Sperm pelotons; article in Nature

2010-03-29 Thread Hugh Trenchard
Thanks, Eric. That puts it nice and succinctly. That said, I take the points about how best to characterize fitness and will adjust my draft accordingly (and I had some chuckles over the lighter responses too). I'll revise it and re-send it sometime over the next few days (it might be old news

[FRIAM] holism vs. reductionism, again

2010-03-29 Thread glen e. p. ropella
So what do we really mean when we say that systems biology is holistic? http://www.biomedcentral.com/1752-0509/4/22 -- glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095, http://agent-based-modeling.com FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets

Re: [FRIAM] Sperm pelotons; article in Nature

2010-03-29 Thread Nicholas Thompson
Hugh, I think there is something publishable lurking here. That, and five bucks will buy you a cup of coffee in any restaurant in Santa Fe ... but you better hurry. Nick Nicholas S. Thompson Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology, Clark University (nthomp...@clarku.edu)

Re: [FRIAM] Sperm pelotons; article in Nature

2010-03-29 Thread Douglas Roberts
Practically my philosophy of life. No coincidence that Wally (Dilbert comic strip) is my main hero. On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 6:45 PM, Vladimyr Ivan Burachynsky vbur...@shaw.cawrote: The cunning riders peel off very quickly and work themselves back into the pack and try and hang in but out of