This perhaps needs some clarification. My response to Tobias should in no
way be construed as an MS Apologista defending their record vis-a-vis
software design/secure coding. Far from it. It was, rather, an effort to
point out that When a customer makes a mistake then it's not his own
but
[flame-bait ahead]
also sprach Helmut Hauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004.01.23.2154 +0100]:
Sometimes it?s to blame us administrators for not installing patches -
slammer and blaster patches were released way BEFORE the outbreak(s) occured
but most admins did not patch,
simply they dont?t even
On Fri, 23 Jan 2004 21:54:22 +0100
Helmut Hauser [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I recommend the MS SUS server, its free, you can test patches before
approving them and it is inexpensive compared to SMS
i recommend uninstalling all the windoze.
georgi
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Tobias, I have to tell you that Customer is king. When a customer makes
a mistake then it's not his
own but the vendor's mistake. is getting old.
1. If the customer decided to make a sharp left turn at 120 kph on an icy
mountain road and slid his car off the side
- Original Message -
From: Cael Abal [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, January 23, 2004 1:27 AM
If I understand him correctly, Tobias is simply suggesting that users
ought not be held accountable for using faulty software. Using a
That IS and WAS the point.
Gregh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
big snip
I haven't seen a sign on the shrink wrap of Windows XP Home that says
Administrator not included.
It is always accepted in the Western world that if something is not SAID to
be there and ISNT there, then the people who manufactured it or sold it to
- Original Message -
From: Tobias Weisserth [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Gregh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 8:53 AM
Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
Hi Greg,
Am Di, den 20.01.2004 schrieb Gregh um 21:45:
..
Let me paint you
- Original Message -
From: Erich Buri [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Gregh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 10:21 AM
Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
Hi Gregh,
do you work for MS? look at the answer from tobias.
If I
Hi Greg,
Am Do, den 22.01.2004 schrieb Gregh um 07:07:
...
I'm dieing to know...
What are you dieing? T-shirts? :)
Yes, foreign languages are hard to master. I guess dieing T-shirts is
in the process of learning them ;-)
Maybe we should continue this debate in German then. Or Dutch. Or
Hi Greg,
Am Do, den 22.01.2004 schrieb Gregh um 07:21:
...
That has nothing to do with ANYTHING. If I install a keylogger on YOUR
computer and you DONT know about it and let's say your bank was at
www.bank.com and your account name was BOB and password was 123ghqofc0
right? Now you have
Why is it possible that a user is able to make this mistake?
Oh COME now! Are you so INSULAR that you dont realise the real world? My
wife works for a MENSA member, a recognised genius who would likely have
more brain capacity than most people in the world. He doesnt have a CLUE how
to secure his
:29 AM
Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
___
Full-Disclosure - We believe in it.
Charter: http://lists.netsys.com/full-disclosure-charter.html
M$ has built one of the best UIs on the planet, but that doesn't give them a
license to ignore all of the security problems in their OS.
If that were true, I'd quit working with computers tomorrow.
Show Full-Menus after a short delay
Hi Ron,
Am Di, den 20.01.2004 schrieb Ron DuFresne um 23:03:
Up to now they rule the consumer OS market with more than 90% market
share. Any error they make regarding default settings in their OS
affects 90% of all end consumers. It is impossible to require that many
customers to adapt.
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Ron DuFresne <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
CC: Mary Landesman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2004 18:34:13 +0100
Hi Ron,
Am Di, den 20.01.2004 schrieb Ron DuFresne um 23:03:
U
Hi yossarian,
Am Mi, den 21.01.2004 schrieb yossarian um 02:04:
...
So, basically, you are blaming the MS people for building a UI that can be
used by anyone.
You haven't understood. Basically _I'm_ blaming the MS people for
building a product that _can't_ be used by anyone but _is_ used by
Hi yossarian,
Am Mi, den 21.01.2004 schrieb yossarian um 02:04:
...
So, basically, you are blaming the MS people for building a UI that can
be
used by anyone.
You haven't understood. Basically _I'm_ blaming the MS people for
building a product that _can't_ be used by anyone but _is_
tobias wrote:
What's the incentive to make the vendor change? It's going
to take one
HUGE boycott to achieve that, HUGE becuase the market is
worlwide
The ultimate solution to solve this problem would be a free
market with
free competition and no entry barriers for potential
Hi yossarian,
Am Mi, den 21.01.2004 schrieb yossarian um 20:20:
Mmmm, who forced them to use it?
Mmh. Nobody forced them to use it. They are kind of deceived into
using it. What choice do they have when they buy a new PC? Ever heard of
OEM vendor deals?!
And they might think they are able to
Tobias Wrote:
The fact that people use Windows and Office, proves that they can -
basic
Vulcan Logic.
No. _IF_ people could use MS Windows/Outlook then things like
Win32/Bagle-A wouldn't stand a chance because people either knew not to
start or couldn't execute attachments from within
Hi yossarian,
Am Do, den 22.01.2004 schrieb yossarian um 00:05:
Have you noticed that you can put diesel in a normal car, cause the muzzle
at the gas station is too thick?
When you open the lid it says on the inside which type of fuel you need.
When a user buys a computer he knows if he
I don't know how this works in the US but in Europe gas stations and
fuel inlets are only compatible if you use the right fuel. I couldn't
refuel my car with Diesel even if I wanted to.
Like I said - the other way around. Since the majority of cars is on petrol,
putting diesel in it is blocked
The Pinto is a perfect example. It was a concious design decision to save
a
few bucks, the theory being that lawsuits for exploding pintos would cost
less then fixing said Pinto. The difference being that suing a software
company is almost impossible, so the cost of fixing vs. the cost of
- Original Message -
From: Tobias Weisserth [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Gregh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: Mary Landesman [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 9:01 AM
Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
Hi Greg,
Am Di, den 20.01.2004 schrieb Gregh um 21
- Original Message -
From: Scott Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Gregh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, January 22, 2004 4:17 PM
Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
On Wed, Jan 21, 2004 at 07:50:47AM +1100, [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Yeah! Keylogger trojans
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of David F.
Skoll
Sent: 20 January 2004 00:58
To: Gregh
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004, Gregh wrote:
I wonder if you would have the job you have or know
On Mon, 19 Jan 2004 19:58:15 EST, David F. Skoll said:
It's pathetic that 17 years after CHRISTMA EXEC, hundreds of thousands of
Windows machines are succumbing to the same easily-preventable security flaw.
What's even MORE pathetic is that even 17 years ago, CHRISTMA EXEC required for
you
On Tue, 20 Jan 2004, Gregh wrote:
I get tired of anti-MS drivel.
*I* get tired of people who dismiss reasoned arguments as anti-MS
drivel.
So show me where I did that in that email.
Above, and in the subject line.
[...]
Let's put it another way - if it weren't for MS you wouldn't be
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 1:55 AM
To: David F. Skoll
Cc: Gregh; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
Moral of the story - in the past 2 decades
Hi Paul,
Am Di, den 20.01.2004 schrieb Schmehl, Paul L um 17:01:
But the *real* problem isn't the OS, it's the users.
Actually, that's wrong.
Users are never the problem. It's always the software. When a user
doesn't understand something, then there's a problem with the software,
not the
Hi Mary,
Am Di, den 20.01.2004 schrieb Mary Landesman um 18:12:
On January 20, 2004 11:55 AM, Tobias Weisserth claimed:
And the blame goes on MS for this. Nobody else.
There is absolutely nothing I can do to secure my home from break-in.
You could close the doors, get a better lock, not
Yeah, but if the builder built the house in such a way that the door would never
stay closed then you would sue the pants off of that builder as well as blame
the criminal.
That's pretty much what MS has done. :-)
--Harry
Quoting Mary Landesman [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
* On January 20, 2004 11:55
On Tue, Jan 20, 2004 at 12:12:46PM -0500, Mary Landesman wrote:
On January 20, 2004 11:55 AM, Tobias Weisserth claimed:
And the blame goes on MS for this. Nobody else.
There is absolutely nothing I can do to secure my home from break-in. I can
minimize the risks, but I cannot alleviate the
At 12:12 PM 1/20/2004 -0500, Mary Landesman wrote:
There is absolutely nothing I can do to secure my home from break-in. I can
minimize the risks, but I cannot alleviate the risk entirely. However, we
don't blame the builders when a home invasion occurs. We rightfully blame
the burglar.
The blame
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004, yossarian wrote:
[SNIP]
I checked the flaws reported the last week - and yes I read many many lists,
some 250 mails per day - and the only thing getting close to software used
in bigger environments is this BEA thingie 5 days ago. Yeah, and I quote: a
weakness
Mary Landesman wrote:
There is absolutely nothing I can do to secure my home from break-in. I can
minimize the risks, but I cannot alleviate the risk entirely. However, we
don't blame the builders when a home invasion occurs. We rightfully blame
the burglar.
The blame goes to the crackers
that these things can't be discussed, but when it goes on
for rediculous lengths of time, it's only bickering and nothing more.
Cheers,
Dan
From: Dave Sherohman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
Date: 20 Jan 2004 12:01:09 -0600
On Tue, Jan 20
If a builder sold you a home with no locks on the doors and no
latches on the windows, I suspect that he could be successfully sued
in the modern blame everyone in sight environment of the U.S. And,
unlike a number of other cases, I would agree with that, on the basis
that (unless the home
not lose your keys on purpose
Does anyone lose their keys on purpose? :-)
As I stated originally, you can reduce the risk but you can never alleviate
it entirely. Windows can be broken, locks can be picked, heck, use a
chainsaw and you can slice right through pretty much any part of it. Of
not lose your keys on purpose
Does anyone lose their keys on purpose? :-)
As I stated originally, you can reduce the risk but you can never alleviate
it entirely. Windows can be broken, locks can be picked, heck, use a
chainsaw and you can slice right through pretty much any part of it. Of
- Original Message -
From: Harry Hoffman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 5:00 AM
Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
Yeah, but if the builder built the house in such a way that the door would
never
stay closed then you would sue
- Original Message -
From: Tobias Weisserth [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Mary Landesman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 4:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
Hi Mary,
Am Di, den 20.01.2004 schrieb Mary Landesman um 18:12
Hi Greg,
Am Di, den 20.01.2004 schrieb Gregh um 21:45:
...
Let me paint you a hypothetical situation to show you where what you said is
wrong:
I'm dieing to know...
User receives keylogger attached to email as an exe and stupidly executes
it.
You didn't understand this. Not one bit.
If
- Original Message -
From: David F. Skoll [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Gregh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 11:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
On Tue, 20 Jan 2004, Gregh wrote:
I get tired of anti-MS drivel.
*I* get
Dan,
I think you've got it wrong there. The bickering actually brings people
together, albiet smaller groups with similar interests.
Sometimes it's just plain fun to beat a dead horse :-)
And sometimes it's not about fixing things but rather having a good bitch
session cause you know the
Hi Mary,
Am Di, den 20.01.2004 schrieb Mary Landesman um 20:13:
not lose your keys on purpose
Does anyone lose their keys on purpose? :-)
If you've got a stupid insurance company... :-) I don't know?
As I stated originally, you can reduce the risk but you can never alleviate
it entirely.
- Original Message -
From: Tobias Weisserth [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 3:55 AM
Subject: RE: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
Hi Paul,
Am Di, den 20.01.2004 schrieb Schmehl, Paul L um 17:01:
But the *real* problem isn't the OS, it's
On Tue, 20 Jan 2004 14:49:52 EST, Justin Bajko [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
What would you say to someone if you were a home builder and the buyer of a
home you built a year ago had their lawyers call you and threaten to sue you
because their house got broken into? You installed locks on the doors
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004, yossarian wrote:
I checked the flaws reported the last week - and yes I read many many lists,
some 250 mails per day - and the only thing getting close to software used
in bigger environments is this BEA thingie 5 days ago /.../
Yup, security research focuses on home
Hi Greg,
Am Di, den 20.01.2004 schrieb Gregh um 21:48:
...
In the same way as that, your computer today, may be as secure as anyone can
make it, on the web and then tomorrow, someone finds another way in. Hell,
MS may be the most attacked OS in the world for sure (it is the most used
one so
The posts describing 'house construction' isn't a bad one, but I feel
there's a better way to express it. The makers of our operating systems
should be able to sell us a house with a pretty standard set of components.
Walls, roof, etc. There's doors and windows in it, but the really spiffy
part is
Up to now they rule the consumer OS market with more than 90% market
share. Any error they make regarding default settings in their OS
affects 90% of all end consumers. It is impossible to require that many
customers to adapt. Rather the vendor has to adapt. This is only
logical.
What's
!
greetings
buri
On Tue, 2004-01-20 at 21:45, Gregh wrote:
- Original Message -
From: Tobias Weisserth [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2004 3:55 AM
Subject: RE: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
Hi Paul,
Am Di, den 20.01.2004 schrieb Schmehl, Paul
Erich wrote:
What MS actually does is leading customers into a trap. MS Products look
as if they were so easy to use that _every_ body colud work with it,
just like that - you don't need to know a thing. Intuitive User
interface etc.
So, basically, you are blaming the MS people for building a
Yup, security research focuses on home computing, but this does not mean
the quality of enterprise software is any better; quite the opposite. I
had a chance to audit a bunch of big enterprise applications in several
places I've worked in, and it is very uncommon to find a solution that
will
anymore. Smart and creative people succeed, regardless of the
era/technology/company/product.
Mike
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of yossarian
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 8:04 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Anti
-
From: Curt Purdy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 10:34 AM
To: James Patterson Wicks; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [inbox] RE: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
Wicks wrote:
Microsoft has competition. Apple, Sun, Red Hat . . .
Problem is Apple is full of idiots who
]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Miguel
Mendez
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 9:59 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
James Patterson Wicks wrote:
Microsoft has competition. Apple, Sun, Red Hat . . .
It sure does, but not on the x86 desktop.
Problem
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004, Gregh wrote:
I wonder if you would have the job you have or know the things you know were
it not for MS.
I wasn't planning on responding, but I changed my mind.
Of course I can't answer if I'd have the job I have now if not for MS. That's
a silly question; would you have
- Original Message -
From: David F. Skoll [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Gregh [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 11:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004, Gregh wrote:
I wonder if you would have the job you have or know
James Patterson Wicks wrote:
Microsoft has competition. Apple, Sun, Red Hat . . .
It sure does, but not on the x86 desktop.
Problem is Apple is full of idiots who feature style over substance.
The system has to look better than it performs. They want people to pay
a premium to make it seem
figures and plan hehehe
Have to base my decision on business not IT, as they are the ones that pay
for it.
- Original Message -
From: Michael Gale [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 5:14 AM
Subject: Re: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
HAHHHAHAH
Wicks wrote:
Microsoft has competition. Apple, Sun, Red Hat . . .
Problem is Apple is full of idiots who feature style over substance.
The system has to look better than it performs. The OS is more stable
than
Microsoft, but their elitist attitude will
always keep them at 5% market share.
yossarian wrote:
And a propos the ADS rant - you can hardly call it an MS invention. For me
it is NDS revisited.
And a poor revisit at that. I have had ADS crash and burn at two customers
in the last year (unfortunately no backup domain controllers - no we did not
set them up). Check out MS's
On Sat, 17 Jan 2004 15:47:44 EST, James Patterson Wicks [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
Linux is just not ready for prime time. By prime time I mean on the
homes of the American public. Regular home consumers don't want to have
to learn a new language to use e-mail or play games. They want to be
PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Curt Purdy
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 4:06 PM
To: 'yossarian'; '[Full Disclosure]'
Subject: RE: [inbox] Re: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
And a poor revisit at that. I have had ADS crash and burn at two customers
in the last year
PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Curt Purdy
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 4:06 PM
To: 'yossarian'; '[Full Disclosure]'
Subject: RE: [inbox] Re: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
And a poor revisit at that. I have had ADS crash and burn at two customers
in the last year
On Sun, 18 Jan 2004 18:20:54 EST, joe [EMAIL PROTECTED] said:
imply are common place for you. Not one restore from backup ever. Our AD has
failures and the directory stops replicating to protect itself. We fix the
disk subsystem failure, reload the machine, repromote, and it is up and
Am I
if the services like samba and apache werent on by default on mandrake then
linux would be ready for grandma..let me clarify that just a little , in
mandrake 9.0 they are turned on if you want internet/networking
urpmi is extremely easy for updating mandrake
but i prefer to use command line
Mary:
Cisco at least has competition. Juniper Networks has about a 25% share of
the router market, which keeps Cisco honest. Microsoft has almost market
penetration at the desktop for both the home and business. IMHO, they
deserve all the anti-MS drivel people can dish out. I will tire of it
: Saturday, January 17, 2004 12:38 PM
To: 'Mary Landesman'; 'David F. Skoll'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
Mary:
Cisco at least has competition. Juniper Networks has about a 25% share
of
the router market, which
On Sat, 2004-01-17 at 13:47, James Patterson Wicks wrote:
Business on the other hand is moving slowly to Linux. Why slowly? Who
do you sue when your business is hacked by someone who planted a
backdoor in the Linux kernel? Won't happen you say? Let's see, almost
happened once already . .
On Sat, 2004-01-17 at 13:47, James Patterson Wicks wrote:
Business on the other hand is moving slowly to Linux. Why slowly? Who
do you sue when your business is hacked by someone who planted a
backdoor in the Linux kernel? Won't happen you say? Let's see, almost
happened once already
David,
Your company is obivously a geek friendly enviroment where not using m$
products is ok and not a business requirement.But when you have tons of
presentations monthly where the client is only using Powerpoint ( and only
powerpoint because it's working for him ) , using OpenOffice it's NOT
- Original Message -
From: Edward W. Ray [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: 'Mary Landesman' [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'David F. Skoll'
[EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Sunday, January 18, 2004 4:37 AM
Subject: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS
. Skoll'; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED];
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [Full-Disclosure] Anti-MS drivel
Mary:
Cisco at least has competition. Juniper Networks has about a 25%
share of
the router market, which keeps Cisco honest. Microsoft has almost
market
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