Re: svn troubles

2005-10-27 Thread Ralf Corsepius
On Fri, 2005-10-28 at 08:49 +0200, Andreas Jaeger wrote: > Ralf Corsepius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Hi, > > > > I don't seem to be able to access svn: > > > > # svn ls svn://gcc.gnu.org/svn/gcc > > [several (2-3) minutes pass, during which svn is non-interruptable] > > svn: Can't connect t

Re: svn troubles

2005-10-27 Thread Andreas Jaeger
Ralf Corsepius <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Hi, > > I don't seem to be able to access svn: > > # svn ls svn://gcc.gnu.org/svn/gcc > [several (2-3) minutes pass, during which svn is non-interruptable] > svn: Can't connect to host 'gcc.gnu.org': Connection timed out I didn't read that it's up agai

Re: Exception propagation problem on IA-64/Linux

2005-10-27 Thread Eric Botcazou
> This test case is valid, and the results observed are in incorrect; in > other words, yes, there is a bug. Thanks for confirming. > In general, comparison of type_info objects is supposed to be done by > checking for address equality of the type info strings. On systems > without weak symbols,

Re: resolving backslash newline whisky tango foxtrot: a proposal

2005-10-27 Thread Mark Mitchell
Joe Buck wrote: > So the amended suggestion is to fix -Wcomment to shut up about continued > comments that don't matter, and also to add the new -f option to switch > the handling of spaces-at-the-end. I think your proposal, as amended, is the right approach. I generally don't much like new comm

Re: Exception propagation problem on IA-64/Linux

2005-10-27 Thread Mark Mitchell
Eric Botcazou wrote: >>The name here would seem to imply that we *are* mangling the type >>name: "typeinfo for foo()::S". Which begs the question of why you're >>seeing something different for ia64. > > > Both names are mangled identically (either on IA-32 or IA-64) because they > are > suppos

svn troubles

2005-10-27 Thread Ralf Corsepius
Hi, I don't seem to be able to access svn: # svn ls svn://gcc.gnu.org/svn/gcc [several (2-3) minutes pass, during which svn is non-interruptable] svn: Can't connect to host 'gcc.gnu.org': Connection timed out Ralf

Re: Exception propagation problem on IA-64/Linux

2005-10-27 Thread Eric Botcazou
> The name here would seem to imply that we *are* mangling the type > name: "typeinfo for foo()::S". Which begs the question of why you're > seeing something different for ia64. Both names are mangled identically (either on IA-32 or IA-64) because they are supposed to be local to the translation

Re: Excess precision problem on IA-64

2005-10-27 Thread Geert Bosch
On Oct 27, 2005, at 17:25, Steve Ellcey wrote: It would be easy enough to add an option that turned off the use of the fused multiply and add in GCC but I would hate to see its use turned off by default. Code that cares should be able to express barriers across which no contraction is poss

Re: Aliases crossing procedures

2005-10-27 Thread Diego Novillo
On Thursday 27 October 2005 18:37, shreyas krishnan wrote: > I find that it reports a pointer crossing procedure > boundaries as pointing to anything even in the simplest case of a > passsing by reference. Yes, that's one of the basic limitations in 4.0. Several of these limitations are goi

Re: Properly setting the pkcconfig directory (was: Moving the pkgconfig directory from lib/ to libdata/?)

2005-10-27 Thread Tom Tromey
> "Gerald" == Gerald Pfeifer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: Gerald> This is fine to use, but our configure/build system really should Gerald> be clever enough to automatically set pkgdatadir to the correct Gerald> value in the first place: $(prefix)/libdata/pkgconfig on FreeBSD, Gerald> and $(lib

Re: New SVN Wiki page

2005-10-27 Thread Giovanni Bajo
Mike Stump <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> Uhm, I'm not sure how to explain this without being too pedantic. >> Does this >> sound clearer? > > This tool tracks each individual change (fine-grained) and will never > reapply an already applied change. > > I think that is a high level answer, and comp

Re: Excess precision problem on IA-64

2005-10-27 Thread Geert Bosch
On Oct 27, 2005, at 17:19, Andreas Schwab wrote: I think this is what the FP_CONTRACT pragma is supposed to provide. Yes, but it seems there is no way in the middle end / back end to express this. Or am I just hopelessly behind the times? :) -Geert

Re: question on checkout?

2005-10-27 Thread Giovanni Bajo
Tobias Schlüter <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/SvnSetup has the following example for >> checking out the GCC sources under "Checking out a tree" >> >> svn co svn+ssh://gcc.gnu.org/svn/gcc/trunk >> >> but this doesn't work for me. Rather, I'm getting: >> >> % svn co svn

SSH connection caching

2005-10-27 Thread Richard Kenner
When I do it, it looks like after I log out, something is still running. Is there something I have to stop?

Re: anonymous svn over http?

2005-10-27 Thread Daniel Berlin
On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Joe Buck wrote: Is there a plan to support anonymous svn access via http? It can be slower and more resource intensive. I'd like to avoid it if possible, but if not,

Re: Problem building *-rtems on the head

2005-10-27 Thread Andrew Pinski
> > > Or at least I think it's the head. I am still learning subversion. :) The SVN version of the head that is live right now is still a couple weeks old. So any troubles you have right now might just be due to that. You can try cvs which is in a read only state (for the rest of its life).

Problem building *-rtems on the head

2005-10-27 Thread Joel Sherrill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Or at least I think it's the head. I am still learning subversion. :) I am testing using gcc-head-test with the *-rtems targets. I managed to build a native compiler and am using that to build the cross compilers. But when the build gets around to trying to build newlib, it is using CC=${ta

Re: resolving backslash newline whisky tango foxtrot: a proposal

2005-10-27 Thread Gabriel Dos Reis
Joe Buck <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: | > > -Wcontinued-cpp-comment | > > | > > Warn if there is a C++-style comment that is continued by a backslash at | > > the end of the line, and the following line contains something other | > > than whitespace and comments. The current setting of | >

SVN: question on checkout?

2005-10-27 Thread Tobias Schlüter
> http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/SvnSetup has the following example for > checking out the GCC sources under "Checking out a tree" > > svn co svn+ssh://gcc.gnu.org/svn/gcc/trunk > > but this doesn't work for me. Rather, I'm getting: > > % svn co svn+ssh://gcc.gnu.org/svn/gcc/trunk > Permission

Aliases crossing procedures

2005-10-27 Thread shreyas krishnan
Hi, I am trying to understand alias analysis. And currently using gcc 4.0 I find that it reports a pointer crossing procedure boundaries as pointing to anything even in the simplest case of a passsing by reference. I guess interproceural analysis is hard in general but is it so even in t

SVN: question on checkout?

2005-10-27 Thread Gerald Pfeifer
http://gcc.gnu.org/wiki/SvnSetup has the following example for checking out the GCC sources under "Checking out a tree" svn co svn+ssh://gcc.gnu.org/svn/gcc/trunk but this doesn't work for me. Rather, I'm getting: % svn co svn+ssh://gcc.gnu.org/svn/gcc/trunk Permission denied (publickey

Re: Exception propagation problem on IA-64/Linux

2005-10-27 Thread Richard Henderson
On Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 11:10:10PM +0200, Eric Botcazou wrote: > > Try again on ia32 with -fpic. That should go through > > dw2_force_const_mem just the same. > > Right, but the problem doesn't trigger, probably because of the relative > encoding: > > .LLSDACSE3: > .byte 0x1 >

anonymous svn over http?

2005-10-27 Thread Joe Buck
Is there a plan to support anonymous svn access via http? The possibility was mentioned in http://gcc.gnu.org/ml/gcc/2005-02/msg00618.html The svn: protocol won't work through our corporate firewall.

Re: Excess precision problem on IA-64

2005-10-27 Thread Eric Botcazou
> The HP compiler generates fused multiply and add by default and has several > settings for the +Ofltacc option to control this (and other optimizations > that affect floating point accuracy). > > +Ofltacc=default > > Allows contractions, such as fused multiply-add (FMA), but > disallo

couldn't wait with that till 1st of April...

2005-10-27 Thread Tommy Vercetti
http://www.thedailywtf.com/forums/48364/ShowPost.aspx I wonder if one day, gcc will be able to use -Ostupidity to simplify such thingies ;) For those who did not noticed yet, I am just trying to take the piss here. Thanks ;) -- Vercetti

Re: Excess precision problem on IA-64

2005-10-27 Thread Steve Ellcey
> > This seems like any other target which has a fused multiply and add > > instruction like PPC. Maybe a target option to turn on and off the fma > > instruction like there is for PPC. > > I'm under the impression that it's worse on IA-64 because of the "infinite > precision", but I might be w

Re: Excess precision problem on IA-64

2005-10-27 Thread Andreas Schwab
Geert Bosch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > On Oct 27, 2005, at 14:12, Eric Botcazou wrote: >> I'm under the impression that it's worse on IA-64 because of the >> "infinite >> precision", but I might be wrong. > > Fused multiply-add always uses "infinite precision" in the intermediate > result. Only

Re: Exception propagation problem on IA-64/Linux

2005-10-27 Thread Eric Botcazou
> I'm not sure that the C++ testcase is in fact valid. A lawyer would > have to actually weigh in on that claim. OK. But we have valid Ada testcases exhibiting the problem. > Try again on ia32 with -fpic. That should go through > dw2_force_const_mem just the same. Right, but the problem doesn

Re: What is really a new line in most compilers

2005-10-27 Thread Mike Stump
On Oct 27, 2005, at 12:06 AM, Paolo Bonzini wrote: Unfortunately, GUI programs such as TextEdit seem not to know this, Odd, I just created a file and saved it: mrs $ od -c -x ~/Desktop/barfoo.c 000m i k e \n w a s \n h e r e \n 6d696b650a77

Re: resolving backslash newline whisky tango foxtrot: a proposal

2005-10-27 Thread Joe Buck
> > -Wcontinued-cpp-comment > > > > Warn if there is a C++-style comment that is continued by a backslash at > > the end of the line, and the following line contains something other > > than whitespace and comments. The current setting of > > -f{no-}eol-whitespace-strip is used to decide

Re: Exception propagation problem on IA-64/Linux

2005-10-27 Thread Richard Henderson
On Thu, Oct 27, 2005 at 10:21:08PM +0200, Eric Botcazou wrote: > We have run into an exception propagation problem on IA-64/Linux. An > admittedly contrived C++ testcase is attached. I'm not sure that the C++ testcase is in fact valid. A lawyer would have to actually weigh in on that claim. >

Re: Error in "SSH connection caching" entry

2005-10-27 Thread Paul Brook
On Thursday 27 October 2005 21:22, Richard Kenner wrote: > It says it is *recommended* that $HOME/.ssh/config have permission 600. > However, I seem to get an error if it doesn't, so I think this should be > "required", not "recommended". There's also a reason why it's a wiki. Paul

Error in "SSH connection caching" entry

2005-10-27 Thread Richard Kenner
It says it is *recommended* that $HOME/.ssh/config have permission 600. However, I seem to get an error if it doesn't, so I think this should be "required", not "recommended".

Exception propagation problem on IA-64/Linux

2005-10-27 Thread Eric Botcazou
Hi, We have run into an exception propagation problem on IA-64/Linux. An admittedly contrived C++ testcase is attached. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/EA27-007> g++ -v Using built-in specs. Target: ia64-sgi-linux-gnu Configured with: /home01/botcazou/cvs/gcc/configure ia64-sgi-linux-gnu --prefix=/nile.bu

Re: GccPowerpc eabi HowTo - probem with stido functions ( sprintf)

2005-10-27 Thread Jim Wilson
moshed (sent by Nabble.com) wrote: / usr/local/bin/../powerpc-eabi/lib/libc.a(vfprintf.o)(.text+0x18a0): In function `_vfprintf_r': .../../../.././newlib/libc/stdio/vfprintf.c:1065: undefined reference to `__umoddi3' These are in the libgcc library. /usr/local/bin/../powerpc-eabi/lib/libc.a

Re: backslash whitespace newline

2005-10-27 Thread Kean Johnston
So I assume it is possible for an ISO 9000 environment to allow for ad hoc sed scripts to fix trivial problems, and it would be the specific institution, and not ISO 9000, that is broken (IMHO) if anal rule prevented such utilitarian acts? ISO9000 is a pretty broad word these days. As someone

Re: Excess precision problem on IA-64

2005-10-27 Thread Eric Botcazou
> Fused multiply-add always uses "infinite precision" in the intermediate > result. Only a single rounding is performed at the end. Of course, but I was implicitly referring to the 82-bit thing. But it seems I was wrong, as the testcase fails on PowerPC w/ -mfused-madd too. -- Eric Botcazou

Re: Vectorizing HIRLAM 4: complicated access patterns examined.

2005-10-27 Thread Toon Moene
I wrote: I'm now going to try to compile HIRLAM with 32 bit pointers. And ... here are the results: With 64-bit pointers: 2685 out of 9799 loops vectorized. With 32-bit pointers: 3269 out of 8854 loops vectorized. Why there are more loops in the 64-bit case is beyond my understanding -

Re: Excess precision problem on IA-64

2005-10-27 Thread Geert Bosch
On Oct 27, 2005, at 14:12, Eric Botcazou wrote: I'm under the impression that it's worse on IA-64 because of the "infinite precision", but I might be wrong. Fused multiply-add always uses "infinite precision" in the intermediate result. Only a single rounding is performed at the end. We real

Re: resolving backslash newline whisky tango foxtrot: a proposal

2005-10-27 Thread Eric Christopher
I'm good with this proposal. I was against the flag in the first place for a desire to pick something and let's do that, but it seems like with so much furor over it we should probably just have a flag. :) -eric

Re: resolving backslash newline whisky tango foxtrot: a proposal

2005-10-27 Thread Andrew Pinski
> -Wcontinued-cpp-comment > > Warn if there is a C++-style comment that is continued by a backslash at > the end of the line, and the following line contains something other > than whitespace and comments. The current setting of > -f{no-}eol-whitespace-strip is used to decide what is a co

resolving backslash newline whisky tango foxtrot: a proposal

2005-10-27 Thread Joe Buck
Daniel was right in that the discussion has degenerated. So, here's a concrete proposal. Think of it as a start on a documentation patch. Since there is no consensus, it seems that the right solution is to have options. I think that the following concept can solve the problems. -fno-eol-whites

Re: Vectorizing HIRLAM 4: complicated access patterns examined.

2005-10-27 Thread Toon Moene
Dorit wrote: It looks like maybe a 64bit scalar-evolution issue - when I compile on powerpc-linux with -m64, I also get the "vect4.f:4: note: not consecutive access" message. This problem looks very similar to PR18403 which has been resolved a while

Re: Excess precision problem on IA-64

2005-10-27 Thread Eric Botcazou
> This seems like any other target which has a fused multiply and add > instruction like PPC. Maybe a target option to turn on and off the fma > instruction like there is for PPC. I'm under the impression that it's worse on IA-64 because of the "infinite precision", but I might be wrong. -- E

Re: Excess precision problem on IA-64

2005-10-27 Thread Andrew Pinski
> > --Boundary-00=_dFRYDl9RKCduOdb > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Content-Disposition: inline > > Hi, > > We have run into an excess precision problem on IA-64, similar to the > infamous > problem on IA-32. A C testcase is attached. > >

Excess precision problem on IA-64

2005-10-27 Thread Eric Botcazou
Hi, We have run into an excess precision problem on IA-64, similar to the infamous problem on IA-32. A C testcase is attached. [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~/EA26-004> gcc -v Using built-in specs. Target: ia64-sgi-linux-gnu Configured with: /home01/botcazou/cvs/gcc/configure ia64-sgi-linux-gnu --prefix=/

Re: [Steven Woody] M16C development using GCC, Is It Possible?

2005-10-27 Thread DJ Delorie
> > To compile for the m16c specifically, use "m32c-elf-gcc -mcpu=m16c ..." > > thanks. is that a 4.02 option? i can not find them on my 3.4 gcc man page. The r8c/m16c/m32c port is new. Currently, it's only in the mainline CVS sources, and will be "officially" released in the gcc 4.1 series. >

Re: [Steven Woody] M16C development using GCC, Is It Possible?

2005-10-27 Thread Steven Woody
DJ Delorie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: >> i heard that gcc is also a cross-compiler, so i want to get know if >> it can be used as an M16C compiler? > > Yes. The target you want to use to build gcc et al is "m32c-elf". > > To compile for the m16c specifically, use "m32c-elf-gcc -mcpu=m16c ..." t

Re: backslash whitespace newline

2005-10-27 Thread Stan Shebs
Daniel Berlin wrote: I believe every opinion anyone could ever have about this issue has been put forth, and nobody on either side has been convinced of anything, other than that the other side just doesn't get it. Well the purpose of the discussion here is precisely to see if there is a conse

GccPowerpc eabi HowTo - probem with stido functions ( sprintf)

2005-10-27 Thread moshed (sent by Nabble.com)
Hello Please your's advice.I think such a problem with newlib...or with my gcc powerpc building process or with the makefile I attach a Zip example. Please your remarks to the following procedure A. Under Cygwin - XP SP2 machine Getting the following tar files than extract / cerate the

Re: backslash whitespace newline

2005-10-27 Thread Alexandre Oliva
On Oct 27, 2005, Robert Dewar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > When you step out of customs at the Bangkok airport, you see a big > booth saying "ISO 9000 compliant taxi service" :-) ``Sorry, sir, can't drive you $there, my procedure says I can only take passengers $elsewhere. I'm afraid the driver

Re: backslash whitespace newline

2005-10-27 Thread Robert Dewar
Daniel Berlin wrote: I'm sorry, did it require 200 emails for people to figure this out? I'd think that we could have stopped at 10, maybe less. Instead, everybody just has to throw their opinion on whitespace in, without bothering to notice someone put forth that opinion 5 minutes ago. Not o

Re: backslash whitespace newline

2005-10-27 Thread Robert Dewar
Scott Robert Ladd wrote: Ah! I worked in only one place, a defense contractor, where ISO 9000 was "followed", and the way management talked, their procedures were dictated by ISO 9000. So I gather my one experience gave me an inaccurate view of the subject? The only sense in which the proc

Re: backslash whitespace newline

2005-10-27 Thread DJ Delorie
> So I assume it is possible for an ISO 9000 environment to allow for > ad hoc sed scripts to fix trivial problems, and it would be the > specific institution, and not ISO 9000, that is broken (IMHO) if > any rule prevented such utilitarian acts? When one of my previous employers went ISO9000, it

Re: backslash whitespace newline

2005-10-27 Thread Richard Kenner
So I assume it is possible for an ISO 9000 environment to allow for ad hoc sed scripts to fix trivial problems, and it would be the specific institution, and not ISO 9000, that is broken (IMHO) if anal rule prevented such utilitarian acts? The question is what does "ad hoc" mean?

Re: backslash whitespace newline

2005-10-27 Thread Scott Robert Ladd
Robert Dewar wrote: It sounds like you are not familiar with ISO 9000 at all :-) This standard is about following your internal rules, it is not a set of rules itself, so if you have a rule which prohibits SED scripts in your environment, this is a rule you have created for yourself, and you can

Re: dw_at_high_pc = 0

2005-10-27 Thread Daniel Berlin
On Thu, 2005-10-27 at 16:06 +0200, Ladislav Lestan wrote: > Hi > I have following problem > When I compile c source file with options: > > mips64-linux-gnu-gcc -c -mabi=64 -march=rm9000 -gdwarf-2 > > and then when I use dwarfdump the value of atribute dw_at_high_pc is 0 that > is surely wrong

dw_at_high_pc = 0

2005-10-27 Thread Ladislav Lestan
Hi I have following problem When I compile c source file with options: mips64-linux-gnu-gcc -c -mabi=64 -march=rm9000 -gdwarf-2 and then when I use dwarfdump the value of atribute dw_at_high_pc is 0 that is surely wrong value could you help me please to solve this problem (if I have t

Re: backslash whitespace newline

2005-10-27 Thread Daniel Berlin
> > I believe every opinion anyone could ever have about this issue has been > > put forth, and nobody on either side has been convinced of anything, > > other than that the other side just doesn't get it. > > Well the purpose of the discussion here is precisely to see > if there is a consensus f

Re: backslash whitespace newline

2005-10-27 Thread Richard Kenner
Much as I agree with your sentiments, in many environments, the use of ISO 9000 is *required*, as in you don't get the contract if you don't follow ISO 9000. I have not seen any evidence, personally, that ISO 9000 actually ensures a perfect product, but it is a political requirem

Re: backslash whitespace newline

2005-10-27 Thread Robert Dewar
Scott Robert Ladd wrote: Much as I agree with your sentiments, in many environments, the use of ISO 9000 is *required*, as in you don't get the contract if you don't follow ISO 9000. Actually this is not so common, we have very rarely run into this requirment. CMM model level is a much more

Re: backslash whitespace newline

2005-10-27 Thread Robert Dewar
Scott Robert Ladd wrote: I'm not familiar-enough with ISO 9000 to judge whether a sed script is "too great a burden", but I once worked in an environment where writing a Python script to clean some ugly code got someone (not me) fired for using an "unauthorized tool", even when the script prod

Re: backslash whitespace newline

2005-10-27 Thread Scott Robert Ladd
Bernd Jendrissek wrote: Also, if a sed script that modifies comments is too great a burden to bear for such a beaurocracy, then using a different compiler should be even more of a red-tape jungle. If it isn't, the management system is broken and you might as well not bother with all those burden

Re: backslash whitespace newline

2005-10-27 Thread Robert Dewar
Daniel Berlin wrote: Which is invariably why it has generated so much discussion. Surely everyone is familiar with Parkinson's second law (time spent discussing an issue is inversely proportional to its importance) I believe every opinion anyone could ever have about this issue has been put

Backlash newline newline backlash whiskey tango foxtrot

2005-10-27 Thread Daniel Berlin
Are you guys done trying to decide what color to paint this bikeshed yet? If not, I suggest maroon (http://maroon.bikeshed.com), or maybe aquamarine (http://aquamarine.bikeshed.com). I believe every opinion anyone could ever have about this issue has been put forth, and nobody on either side has

Re: backslash whitespace newline

2005-10-27 Thread Olly Betts
On 2005-10-26, Eric Christopher <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > The problem is that it's portable to every other compiler we've > tested. I am curious what icc and xlc do, but those are the only > two not tested. I've just checked icc and it follows the croud (i.e. it treats "backslash space newline"

Re: backslash whitespace newline

2005-10-27 Thread Robert Dewar
Bernd Jendrissek wrote: My vote: I don't like surprises, and I'd like this code: int x; // variable x \\ int y; // variable y \\ to do exactly the same as this code: int x; // variable x \\ int y; // variable y \\ even if that behaviour is not the intent of the programm

Re: backslash whitespace newline

2005-10-27 Thread Bernd Jendrissek
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Oct 26, 2005 at 03:43:15PM -0700, Eric Christopher wrote: > >Don't you think it is reasonable to fix horrible coding errors like > >this, you are just asking for maintenance problems. In the short > >term, kludging may make sense, in the long t

Re: backslash whitespace newline

2005-10-27 Thread Bernd Jendrissek
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Wed, Oct 26, 2005 at 02:22:55AM -0700, Kean Johnston wrote: > If you're working in an ISO9000 environment where every single source > line change is tracked by a rather burdensome process, the last thing > you want to do is invoke that process for s

Emit insns in the preparation statements of define_expand

2005-10-27 Thread Eric Fisher
Hey, It's very sorry. I have just found the answer just in the context. It's a so stupid question. DONE Use the DONE macro to end RTL generation for the pattern. The only RTL insns resulting from the pattern on this occasion will be those already emitted by explicit calls to emit_insn within the

Emit insns in the preparation statements of define_expand

2005-10-27 Thread Eric Fisher
Hello, I have a doubt here about define_expand and would be appreciated for your any help. The internals say, Usually these statements prepare temporary registers for use as internal operands in the RTL template, but they can also generate RTL insns directly by calling routines such as emit_insn,

Re: What is really a new line in most compilers

2005-10-27 Thread Paolo Bonzini
Just a nit: 5 years ago that was true. Now \n is "native" Was that part of the OS/X migration, or otherwise? Just curious. Part of the migration. OS X /is/ unix. Ok, I'm sure that's an inaccurate statement and I trust the more experienced Apple guys here will gently correct me. But