I don't think this needs more discussion, but to clarify my comment,
it was my impression that requirements, specifically that a release
has to be created, were being added to the graduation checklist ad
hoc. Some members saw it differently, and view it as more of a
discussion item, which in
On 10/20/06, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
robert burrell donkin wrote:
On 10/19/06, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
(i'll run RAT against the source and submit a JIRA or something with
the issues but may be later on next week. alternatively, checked the
On 10/21/06, Tim Ellison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 20/10/06, Roy T. Fielding [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Oct 20, 2006, at 3:34 AM, Tim Ellison wrote:
To be clear, our snapshots are more than a simple snap of
Subversion --
we (the Harmony community) discuss the right time to create the
On Thursday 19 October 2006 02:14, Don Brown wrote:
I don't think it is fair to be making up graduation
requirements right when a project is about to graduate.
Can you please be more specific. Which requirements have been mad up on the
spot just for Harmony?
Either this is a case of FUD or
On Sunday 22 October 2006 01:16, Tim Ellison wrote:
I was able to attend a US an EU ApacheCon and get my key signed by a
number of members, and in turn sign a number of other peoples', so I
believe that all the pieces are in place for me, and others in
Harmony, to conduct a bona fide release
On 20/10/06, Roy T. Fielding [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Oct 20, 2006, at 3:34 AM, Tim Ellison wrote:
To be clear, our snapshots are more than a simple snap of
Subversion --
we (the Harmony community) discuss the right time to create the
development snapshot to accommodate known instability
On 20/10/06, Greg Stein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Look. You guys are freakin' nuts.
:-) that is a pre-req' for tackling something like harmony.
Tim
--
Tim Ellison ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
-
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL
Greg Stein wrote:
On 10/19/06, Roy T. Fielding [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Right. I said it would be useful to see if the community can make it
happen. I know that *some individuals* can, but that is different. I
didn't vote, I didn't say it was a requirement, just asked: why can't
you pull
On Oct 20, 2006, at 1:24 AM, Greg Stein wrote:
On 10/19/06, Roy T. Fielding [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Oct 19, 2006, at 3:32 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
...
I'd like to ask that those who have asked for a release to assuage
concerns about community health and capability to please read
Tim Ellison wrote:
To be clear, our snapshots are more than a simple snap of Subversion --
we (the Harmony community) discuss the right time to create the
development snapshot to accommodate known instability caused by work in
flight, publish the snapshot with the required incubator
On Oct 20, 2006, at 3:34 AM, Tim Ellison wrote:
To be clear, our snapshots are more than a simple snap of
Subversion --
we (the Harmony community) discuss the right time to create the
development snapshot to accommodate known instability caused by
work in
flight, publish the snapshot with
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
I certainly hope that the concept of 'releasing the code' isn't just a tick
mark - I'd imagined (contrary to other proposals flying around) that it's the
end goal of nearly any collaborative effort at the ASF, no?
No, because then
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
Last checkpoint, Has the sponsoring PMC [e.g. Board] voted to accept the
project? You have a few hours yet to put a resolution on their plate for
next week. And honestly - they would probably table it for review even if
you gave them a month lead time, so might
On Oct 17, 2006, at 4:30 PM, Daniel Kulp wrote:
I don't have a binding vote, but my thought is Harmony has the
same issue as Felix: namely they haven't done a release or provided
even a test release to the IPMC so the IPMC can be sure the podling
knows the proper way to do a release and
On Oct 18, 2006, at 9:02 AM, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
A snapshot doesn't require any thought. I'd be happy with a
vote on a release plan, myself, or even just a trial run.
Something to indicate that folks understand what it is that
a PMC is supposed to do in real life (i.e., make releases while
On Oct 18, 2006, at 8:04 PM, Mads Toftum wrote:
On Wed, Oct 18, 2006 at 07:10:37PM +0200, Mads Toftum wrote:
On the surface everything appears fine to the point of graduating
minus
the proving that you can do a release. But given past experiences
with
graduating large projects too fast,
On Oct 18, 2006, at 9:52 PM, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
On Oct 18, 2006, at 11:14 AM, Don Brown wrote:
Agreed. I don't think it is fair to be making up graduation
requirements right when a project is about to graduate.
The graduation requirement is that a majority of the PMC members
agree that
On Oct 18, 2006, at 10:42 PM, robert burrell donkin wrote:
On 10/18/06, Greg Stein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You said that you have run Tomcat on top of Harmony. Why can't you
produce a release such that I can throw the Tomcat jar at it, too?
Sure, it is a developer release, but it let's
Crap. Damn Send button. Reprinting:
Without question, Harmony knows how to manage its legal bits. Can the
community navigate through all those hurdles and processes and other
shtuff to actually produce a release? Is this community set up to
produce releases, or is it set up to check off legal
Geez, Leo. The email below was #8 of a series. Maybe you can collect
your thoughts and post a single email that pulls the threads together?
Rather than continuing N threads, you could funnel them into one...
On 10/19/06, Leo Simons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Oct 18, 2006, at 10:42 PM, robert
On Oct 18, 2006, at 1:12 PM, Greg Stein wrote:
You said that you have run Tomcat on top of Harmony. Why can't you
produce a release such that I can throw the Tomcat jar at it, too?
Sure, it is a developer release, but it let's non-Harmony folks play
with your project.
Is there a specific
I'm not dismissing the importance of Greg's concern, and am not trying
to take the Harmony conversation down a rat-hole (or different rat-hole
in this case...), so I changed the Subject line.
---
Let me take a brief side trip here about [Unwritten] Incubator
Graduation Requirements
I made the mistake of not responding publicly, thinking that it was just
best to ignore it. I had nothing to do with it - it didn't represent any
sentiment that I have, nor was I a participant in any such email
conversation, or ever have been. My head has only room for one hat at a
time,
Oh, what a trip this has been.
I like consensus. I don't like out-of-the-blue discussion-less votes on
big issues (and Incubator graduation is a big issue). I prefer to have
a vote as an unambiguous ratification of what was agreed upon beforehand.
In retrospect, it might have been
On Thu, Oct 19, 2006 at 06:32:04AM -0400, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
If we can reach consensus (with the exception of Mads who doesn't want
to see Harmony here, and Roy for other good reasons due to my
stupidity), I'd like to then move to the ratification vote.
I'll withdraw most of my
On 10/19/06, Leo Simons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Oct 18, 2006, at 10:42 PM, robert burrell donkin wrote:
On 10/18/06, Greg Stein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You said that you have run Tomcat on top of Harmony. Why can't you
produce a release such that I can throw the Tomcat jar at it, too?
On 10/19/06, Leo Simons [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Oct 18, 2006, at 1:12 PM, Greg Stein wrote:
You said that you have run Tomcat on top of Harmony. Why can't you
produce a release such that I can throw the Tomcat jar at it, too?
Sure, it is a developer release, but it let's non-Harmony folks
Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
Oh, what a trip this has been.
:)
I'd like to ask that those who have asked for a release to assuage
concerns about community health and capability to please read those 3
testaments from the mentors (ok, in Leo's case, 71 or so...) and please
consider withdrawing
On Oct 19, 2006, at 3:32 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
I agree with the motivations behind asking for a release, but
disagree that a release is the only way to satisfy IPMC's need for
information about the health and capability of a podling's future
life as a TLP.
It isn't -- it is just
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
IMHO - the only reason to have a project (TLP or subproject, no matter) is
to release code. Anything prior to a release might be a sandbox, it might
be a podling, it might be a lose alliance of the willing. Whatever...
[snip]
That said ... I don't believe
On 10/19/06, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
the source is the heart of any apache release. most issues with
releases are actually issues with the source. a community that does
not understand how to create source that can be released cannot (in my
opinion) graduate.
But
Sam Ruby wrote:
Of course, one could simply manufacture a synthetic release for the
purposes of satisfying a perceived incubation requirement, but honestly,
that seems more like one of the ticky-marks driven processes I tend to
see within my day job than anything I would expect to see at
Greg Stein wrote:
can they get the community to produce a (developer) release of Harmony?
A pro-forma release would really tell us very little of that, especially
when you combined with your follow-on:
For example, I think about all the hell the Tomcat community went
through with the whole
On 10/19/06, Roy T. Fielding [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Oct 19, 2006, at 3:32 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
...
I'd like to ask that those who have asked for a release to assuage
concerns about community health and capability to please read those
3 testaments from the mentors (ok, in Leo's
Greg Stein wrote:
On 10/19/06, Roy T. Fielding [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Oct 19, 2006, at 3:32 AM, Geir Magnusson Jr. wrote:
...
I'd like to ask that those who have asked for a release to assuage
concerns about community health and capability to please read those
3 testaments from the
Sam Ruby wrote:
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
IMHO - the only reason to have a project (TLP or subproject, no matter) is
to release code. Anything prior to a release might be a sandbox, it might
be a podling, it might be a lose alliance of the willing. Whatever...
[snip]
That said ... I
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
Sam Ruby wrote:
William A. Rowe, Jr. wrote:
IMHO - the only reason to have a project (TLP or subproject, no matter) is
to release code. Anything prior to a release might be a sandbox, it might
be a podling, it might be a lose alliance of the willing. Whatever...
Don Brown wrote:
Agreed. I don't think it is fair to be making up graduation
requirements right when a project is about to graduate.
+1
And Harmony will have my +1 for graduation too.
Paul
--
Paul Fremantle
http://bloglines.com/blog/paulfremantle
On 10/19/06, Paul Fremantle [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Don Brown wrote:
Agreed. I don't think it is fair to be making up graduation
requirements right when a project is about to graduate.
+1
Bah. That's certainly not the case here. -- justin
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
On Wednesday 18 October 2006 10:33, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
Will you be satisfied with a vote on posting a snapshot?
I think some Incubator PMC member wants to see a 'full release' artifact for
review.
I don't.
The podling should select a release manager producing
On Wednesday 18 October 2006 14:07, Paul Querna wrote:
I believe in general, a release is a 'nice to have' for an incubator
project, and nothing more. It can help some groups who are not familiar
with what is required of a release, but by no means should it be a
requirement to graduate from
You said that you have run Tomcat on top of Harmony. Why can't you
produce a release such that I can throw the Tomcat jar at it, too?
Sure, it is a developer release, but it let's non-Harmony folks play
with your project.
Is there a specific problem with producing a developer release?
Cheers,
On Tuesday October 17 2006 10:33 pm, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
Roy T. Fielding wrote:
The early rule did not work, specifically for projects that intended
to graduate as a TLP. There was insufficient experience left in one
group post-graduation to properly create an Apache release, so we
Roy T. Fielding wrote:
Legal ducks? this project has a flock :) And there is no requirement
for a release for graduation, is there? (Ironic, since the early rule
in the incubator was that no releases were allowed ;)
The early rule did not work, specifically for projects that intended
to
On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 11:44:22PM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
The PPMC of the Apache Harmony incubator podling has voted to ask for
graduation from the Apache Incubator. We have enjoyed our time here
with you, but feel that we don't want to overstay our welcome. We want
to do our part
On 10/18/06, Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
At ApacheCon, it was noticed that at the present time the number of
podlings exceeds the number of Apache projects (I believe the figures
quoted were 37 to 35).
I am of the opinion that the pendulum has swung too far - we seem to
have a number of
Mads Toftum wrote:
On Mon, Oct 16, 2006 at 11:44:22PM -0500, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
The PPMC of the Apache Harmony incubator podling has voted to ask for
graduation from the Apache Incubator. We have enjoyed our time here
with you, but feel that we don't want to overstay our welcome. We
On Wed, Oct 18, 2006 at 07:10:37PM +0200, Mads Toftum wrote:
On the surface everything appears fine to the point of graduating minus
the proving that you can do a release. But given past experiences with
graduating large projects too fast, I'd be much in favor of keeping
Harmony in incubation
Agreed. I don't think it is fair to be making up graduation
requirements right when a project is about to graduate. If we are to
require a project to go through an Incubation process, that process
should be well-defined and not constantly changing based on the whims
of Incubation members. That
Justin Erenkrantz wrote:
On 10/18/06, Sam Ruby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
At ApacheCon, it was noticed that at the present time the number of
podlings exceeds the number of Apache projects (I believe the figures
quoted were 37 to 35).
I am of the opinion that the pendulum has swung too far - we
On Oct 18, 2006, at 11:14 AM, Don Brown wrote:
Agreed. I don't think it is fair to be making up graduation
requirements right when a project is about to graduate.
The graduation requirement is that a majority of the PMC members
agree that a podling should be graduated. Geir asked for a
On 10/18/06, Geir Magnusson Jr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
snip
Note that the best practice of LICENSE
and NOTICE in META-INF has been noted and addressed.
in theory, this is a best practice but in practice, this is almost
always a requirement :-)
every artifact distributed must have a LICENSE
Roy T. Fielding wrote:
On Oct 18, 2006, at 11:14 AM, Don Brown wrote:
Agreed. I don't think it is fair to be making up graduation
requirements right when a project is about to graduate.
The graduation requirement is that a majority of the PMC members
agree that a podling should be
He just never seems to give up--like a small child not knowing when to
stop.
-Original Message-
From: Geir Magnusson Jr. [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, October 18, 2006 1:24 PM
To: general@incubator.apache.org
Subject: Re: [discussion] Harmony podling to ask for vote for
On 10/18/06, Greg Stein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You said that you have run Tomcat on top of Harmony. Why can't you
produce a release such that I can throw the Tomcat jar at it, too?
Sure, it is a developer release, but it let's non-Harmony folks play
with your project.
i'd like to give
robert burrell donkin wrote:
On 10/18/06, Greg Stein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You said that you have run Tomcat on top of Harmony. Why can't you
produce a release such that I can throw the Tomcat jar at it, too?
Sure, it is a developer release, but it let's non-Harmony folks play
with your
On 10/18/06, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
robert burrell donkin wrote:
On 10/18/06, Greg Stein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You said that you have run Tomcat on top of Harmony. Why can't you
produce a release such that I can throw the Tomcat jar at it, too?
Sure, it is a
On Oct 18, 2006, at 1:25 PM, Grote, Judy wrote:
He just never seems to give up--like a small child not knowing when to
stop.
No, more like an old grandpa who sees his grandkids grab a pair of
scissors and then asks the parents whether they've taught them
not to start running around the room
robert burrell donkin wrote:
On 10/18/06, Geir Magnusson Jr. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
robert burrell donkin wrote:
On 10/18/06, Greg Stein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You said that you have run Tomcat on top of Harmony. Why can't you
produce a release such that I can throw the Tomcat jar at
Folks,
I completely agree with Geir on that the community is healthy and
very active.. All the new folks on the ppmc have demonstrated to my
satisfaction that they will do well as the pmc of a TLP. I definitely
don't think we need a release out to gauge it.
thanks,
dims
On 10/18/06, Geir
On Tuesday 17 October 2006 12:44, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
Thanks, and we look forward to your comments. To avoid cross-post
confusion, I will forward this message to the harmony-dev list rather
than CC.
Amazing feat, indeed. I was very pessimistic to the start of Harmony, and am
gladly
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
On Tuesday 17 October 2006 12:44, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
Thanks, and we look forward to your comments. To avoid cross-post
confusion, I will forward this message to the harmony-dev list rather
than CC.
Amazing feat, indeed. I was very pessimistic to the start of
On Tuesday October 17 2006 12:44 am, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
The PPMC of the Apache Harmony incubator podling has voted to ask for
graduation from the Apache Incubator. We have enjoyed our time here
with you, but feel that we don't want to overstay our welcome. We want
to do our part to
On Wednesday 18 October 2006 10:33, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
Will you be satisfied with a vote on posting a snapshot?
I think some Incubator PMC member wants to see a 'full release' artifact for
review. The podling should select a release manager producing the artifact,
which the PPMC first
Niclas Hedhman wrote:
On Wednesday 18 October 2006 10:33, Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
Will you be satisfied with a vote on posting a snapshot?
I think some Incubator PMC member wants to see a 'full release' artifact for
review. The podling should select a release manager producing the
All,
The PPMC of the Apache Harmony incubator podling has voted to ask for
graduation from the Apache Incubator. We have enjoyed our time here
with you, but feel that we don't want to overstay our welcome. We want
to do our part to help make sure the ASF has more projects than the
Incubator :)
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