On 30 Nov 2003, at 21:20, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
The project was initiated on condition that the name would be
reconsidered prior to becoming a TLP.
Agreed. My feeling is lets postpone this discussion until becoming a
TLP.
We're gonna have to move CVS repos, change mail lists etc anyways
This one time, at band camp, Berin Lautenbach said:
BL 2) Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
BL accountable for their decision.
BL
BL+1. I think the Incubator PMC is in a kind of unique position. We are
BLtrying to ensure that new projects/new committers in new
On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 09:29, Bruce Snyder wrote:
This one time, at band camp, Berin Lautenbach said:
BL 2) Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
BL accountable for their decision.
BL
BL+1. I think the Incubator PMC is in a kind of unique position. We are
Sander Striker wrote:
On Wed, 2003-12-03 at 09:29, Bruce Snyder wrote:
This one time, at band camp, Berin Lautenbach said:
BL 2) Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
BL accountable for their decision.
BL
BL+1. I think the Incubator PMC is in a kind of unique
On 12/2/03 10:37 PM, Jeremy Boynes wrote:
Ted Leung wrote:
On 12/1/03 10:00 AM, David Jencks wrote:
Not to mention Xerces (definitely a person) and Alexandria (city in
Egypt), Merlin (religious and possibly a person's name), Pluto
(religious and possibly a geographical place, depending on
Geronimo was an Apache was he not? So it definitley seems odd that we
can name our whole organization after the people of Geronimo but not
Geronimo himself (yes, I know the name came from a patchy server, but
that's not obvious to anyone most of the time).
I understand that Andy Oliver
On 12/1/03 10:00 AM, David Jencks wrote:
Not to mention Xerces (definitely a person) and Alexandria (city in
Egypt), Merlin (religious and possibly a person's name), Pluto
(religious and possibly a geographical place, depending on whether you
think planets have geography), and possibly Avalon
Ted Leung wrote:
On 12/1/03 10:00 AM, David Jencks wrote:
Not to mention Xerces (definitely a person) and Alexandria (city in
Egypt), Merlin (religious and possibly a person's name), Pluto
(religious and possibly a geographical place, depending on whether you
think planets have geography),
Roy made a comment that a condition for leaving the incubator is that
the
name be changed. I hadn't heard that before, but those are two
incompatible
views.
I said that the condition was that it would be reconsidered; basically,
that any comments to the effect that it is now too late or the
Roy T. Fielding [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Roy made a comment that a condition for leaving the incubator is that
the name be changed. I hadn't heard that before
I said that the condition was that it would be reconsidered
Sorry to misunderstand. Thanks for the clarification.
---
On 12/1/03 12:16 AM, Greg Stein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 07:10:16PM -0500, Rich Bowen wrote:
...
Appropriating the name Geronimo for our uses will cause, and has
caused, controversy.
I believe the only controversy has been from people who state that the
name will
Sam Ruby wrote:
The inevitable result of these two factors is an interminable discussion
on the naming of a project.
IMHO, the right answer is *not* to buck this up to the incubator PMC, or
to members, or *gasp* to the board. A much better approach would be:
1) Have the incubator PMC
Brian Behlendorf [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Despite this, I like Geronimo as a name. However, I think it'd be a poor
choice for two reasons previously noted: other software products already
using that name, and the *potential* it has to cause quite a bit of
trouble. It's really not that hard
Sam Ruby wrote:
...
1) Have the incubator PMC identify a clear set of constraints that apply
to *all* names. Vote on them, document them, and move on.
Right. What is our policy?
ATM here is our rule:
Make sure that the requested project name does not already exist and
check
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
Aaron Bannert wrote:
The Geronimo folks are talking about making logos and there seems to
be a desire to have official signoff on the name. Please vote on one
of the following choices:
[ ] - Let them keep Geronimo as the official name.
[ ] - Punt the decision to
I'm changing my vote, not because I don't believe in my earlier
thoughts, but becausewe are wasting so much time and energy on something
that should be much simpler.
This gets my vote for the most unprincipled vote in this whole thread.
Andreas
Nicola Ken Barozzi wrote:
Sam Ruby wrote:
...
1) Have the incubator PMC identify a clear set of constraints that
apply to *all* names. Vote on them, document them, and move on.
Right. What is our policy?
ATM here is our rule:
Make sure that the requested project name does not already exist
Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
I very much like the government model that the ASF board operates on.
It does not meddle in PMC decisions. If the board does not like the way
some project is operating - it typically has only one rather blunt
instrument to use: disband the PMC. This has the nice side
2) Identify the PPMC who gets to name this project - and hold them
accountable for their decision.
We are not deciding on the name but on the need or not to have a name
change. In case for a name change, this will surely be the case.
At which point, they will be autonomous until the
On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 01:18:15AM -0800, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
On 12/1/03 12:16 AM, Greg Stein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sat, Nov 29, 2003 at 07:10:16PM -0500, Rich Bowen wrote:
...
Appropriating the name Geronimo for our uses will cause, and has
caused, controversy.
I believe
Hmm, how about:
Apache ctx.lookup(apache/j2ee/name);
It's unpronounceable, but so is httpd ;-)
-Brian
On Monday, December 1, 2003, at 03:42 PM, Greg Stein wrote:
On Mon, Dec 01, 2003 at 01:18:15AM -0800, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
On 12/1/03 12:16 AM, Greg Stein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Sat,
On Dec 1, 2003, at 12:53 PM, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
In any event, I would table this to be resolved by the Geronimo
what-ever-we-call-this-thing-currently-labelled-PPMC.
Yikes. We don't have enough bicyles for this.
Can we just call it the PPMC, until we decide to change the ASF bylaws
and
On Dec 1, 2003, at 4:18 PM, Brian McCallister wrote:
Hmm, how about:
Apache ctx.lookup(apache/j2ee/name);
It's unpronounceable, but so is httpd ;-)
I can pronounce it, but I then have to wipe my screen :D
geir
-Brian
On Monday, December 1, 2003, at 03:42 PM, Greg Stein wrote:
On Mon, Dec
I honestly didn't think the use of the name in this context was an
abuse.
I don't think it is abuse -- he is a historical figure and he died
over 100 years ago, so there is no real fear of being sued for it.
I just think it is wrong.
Roy
On Nov 29, 2003, at 2:20 PM, Henri Yandell wrote:
On 29 Nov 2003, Jason van Zyl wrote:
It's not like it's Geronimo: the society of baby seal clubbers or
something nasty like that. It's a piece of free software that gives
people some choice and it uses the name of a native indian hero. So
some
Rich Bowen wrote:
The fact of the matter is that, in the USA, any mention of any minority
(aka non-white) historical figure or group of people, by persons not in
that group, is guaranteed to cause someone to be offended.
I must admit that it is totally beyond my understanding how one can waste so
Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
I must admit that it is totally beyond my understanding how one
can waste so much thoughts on the *possibility* of offending
someone with something
Welcome to the wonderful world of Political Correctness. There are plenty
of cases of political correctness that are the
Thanks for the heads up, Fitz, and for the opportunity
to voice our opinions, Aaron.
IMO, I'd love to:
[X ]- Let them keep Geronimo as the official name.
...as it's already garnered significant press and
public attention already under this name. Let's keep
our brands consistent.
Cheers,
On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 05:04:52PM +0100, Jochen Wiedmann wrote:
Rich Bowen wrote:
The fact of the matter is that, in the USA, any mention of any minority
(aka non-white) historical figure or group of people, by persons not in
that group, is guaranteed to cause someone to be offended.
I
Noel J. Bergman wrote:
It should be left up to the project unless Geronimo is truly deemed
inappropriate.
The developers may wish to avoid the whole issue by renaming the
codebase to something else but not be forced out of the name
because it's perceived to be controversial by some.
On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 08:53:55PM +0100, Leo Simons wrote:
Aaron Bannert wrote:
[ -0 ] - Let them keep Geronimo as the official name.
[ -0 ] - Punt the decision to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[ -1 ] - Disallow Geronimo but allow the committers to come up with any
other name they want
The project was initiated on condition that the name would be
reconsidered prior to becoming a TLP. I don't really care at this
point, except to note that if we do get an objection regarding the
name from folks who have a right to object, then the project will
have to change its name and everyone
Aaron Bannert wrote:
On Sun, Nov 30, 2003 at 08:53:55PM +0100, Leo Simons wrote:
Aaron Bannert wrote:
[ -0 ] - Let them keep Geronimo as the official name.
[ -0 ] - Punt the decision to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[ -1 ] - Disallow Geronimo but allow the committers to come up with any
other name
Leo Simons wrote:
And how is this not a community decision?
IMV, the community has decided, and making a different
decision now would be overruling that decision by the pmc.
Which is valid, of course, but I don't have to like it :D
+1
Stefano recently used the term bureaucracy to describe
1) The incubator PMC is acquiring new PMC members, and will
asymptotically aproach the list of all ASF committers who
are involved in any way with any aspect of growth or
regeneration of code bases. In short, it will become the
epitame of an uber umbrella PMC.
As you are aware, we are
On Sun, 30 Nov 2003, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Personally, I view Political Correctness as being closer to Orwellian
thought control than a sincere attempt to instill appreciation for, and
tolerance of, diversity.
And I think Political Correctness is a term invented by the right to
pretend that
On Nov 28, 2003, at 1:25 PM, Aaron Bannert wrote:
[ ] - Let them keep Geronimo as the official name.
[ ] - Punt the decision to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[ +1] - Disallow Geronimo but allow the committers to come up with
any
other name they want (barring anything inappropriate).
-Fitz
On Fri, 2003-11-28 at 22:25, Aaron Bannert wrote:
The Geronimo folks are talking about making logos and there seems to
be a desire to have official signoff on the name. Please vote on one
of the following choices:
[ ] - Let them keep Geronimo as the official name.
[ ] - Punt the
Sander Striker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
And to clarify: Native American Indian tribe names are inappropiate.
Given the name Apache .. this is an inconsistent statement. Is this
(a new) political correctness thing or some policy?
I'm obviously not native American, but if I were I'd personally
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 13:08, Brian. W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
Geronimo was an Apache was he not? So it definitley seems odd that we
can name our whole organization after the people of Geronimo but not
Geronimo himself (yes, I know the name came from a patchy server, but
that's not obvious to
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 13:47, Brian. W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 12:36, Jason van Zyl wrote:
So the ASF has actually received messages from Apache indians that are
offended by the use of the name Apache?
I don't know... take it up with the board. I do, however, know that
On 29 Nov 2003, Jason van Zyl wrote:
It's not like it's Geronimo: the society of baby seal clubbers or
something nasty like that. It's a piece of free software that gives
people some choice and it uses the name of a native indian hero. So some
coke and twinkie consuming, pasty white
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 13:41, Jason van Zyl wrote:
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 14:31, Brian. W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
It's not like it's Geronimo: the society of baby seal clubbers or
something nasty like that. It's a piece of free software that gives
people some choice and it uses the name of a
Jason van Zyl wrote:
All I'm trying to express is that the name is not being used
in any derogatory sense and that the name Geronimo is being
used in a positive light.
Tell that to the people protesting sports teams using the name Braves or
Redskins, or anything else having a Native American
On 29 Nov 2003, Jason van Zyl wrote:
Geronimo was an Apache was he not? So it definitley seems odd that we
can name our whole organization after the people of Geronimo but not
Geronimo himself (yes, I know the name came from a patchy server, but
that's not obvious to anyone most of the time).
Apache was named after the Apache tribes -- a patchy server was an
afterthought. We've generally avoided any discussion of the topic
because involvement of a native american activist will only result
in trouble for us. Those people are not Apache -- they don't even have
a clue. The various
On 29 Nov 2003, Jason van Zyl wrote:
It's not like it's Geronimo: the society of baby seal clubbers or
something nasty like that. It's a piece of free software that gives
people some choice and it uses the name of a native indian hero. So some
coke and twinkie consuming, pasty white
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
On Sat, 29 Nov 2003, Rich Bowen wrote:
On 29 Nov 2003, Jason van Zyl wrote:
It's not like it's Geronimo: the society of baby seal clubbers or
something nasty like that. It's a piece of free software that gives
people some choice and it uses
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 14:50, Brian. W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 13:41, Jason van Zyl wrote:
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 14:31, Brian. W. Fitzpatrick wrote:
It's not like it's Geronimo: the society of baby seal clubbers or
something nasty like that. It's a piece of free
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 17:56, Noel J. Bergman wrote:
Jason van Zyl wrote:
All I'm trying to express is that the name is not being used
in any derogatory sense and that the name Geronimo is being
used in a positive light.
Tell that to the people protesting sports teams using the name
On Fri, Nov 28, 2003 at 01:25:40PM -0800, Aaron Bannert wrote:
[ ] - Let them keep Geronimo as the official name.
[ ] - Punt the decision to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[X] - Disallow Geronimo but allow the committers to come up with any
other name they want (barring anything
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 18:35, Roy T. Fielding wrote:
Apache was named after the Apache tribes -- a patchy server was an
afterthought. We've generally avoided any discussion of the topic
because involvement of a native american activist will only result
in trouble for us. Those people are not
On 29 Nov 2003, Jason van Zyl wrote:
Of course I'm listening and am also asking you to think. It's
controversial for a reason: most likely it's because some indigenous
peoples find the use of their names in some contexts to be derogatory or
offensive. I'm just asking people to think if in
It should be left up to the project unless Geronimo is truly deemed
inappropriate.
The developers may wish to avoid the whole issue by renaming the
codebase to something else but not be forced out of the name
because it's perceived to be controversial by some.
Unless the Membership or the
On Sat, 2003-11-29 at 18:45, Rich Bowen wrote:
On 29 Nov 2003, Jason van Zyl wrote:
It's not like it's Geronimo: the society of baby seal clubbers or
something nasty like that. It's a piece of free software that gives
people some choice and it uses the name of a native indian hero. So
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