On 8 Oct 2002, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
| This is a sucky thing about java. You get a JVM always whether you want
| one or not.. to do it in java he needs a mod_java with GCJ. (That
| actually sounds kinda cool)
An old message, but hey..
Have you checked out JSR 121 - "Application Isolation API
It'd be a piece of cake to add a velocity tag to Jelly
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work: http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 11/10/2002 05:22:30 AM:
> [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
>
> > [EMAIL PROTECTE
Nick Chalko wrote:
>
>>-Original Message-
>>From: Rich Persaud [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>Sent: Tuesday, October 08, 2002 8:26 PM
>>To: Jakarta General List
>>Subject: re[2]: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
>>
>>Preferred pain is a known pain with an experience-based cap.
>>
Daniel Rall wrote:
> Berin Loritsch <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>
>>Pier Fumagalli wrote:
>>
>>>On 8/10/02 1:30 am, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
>>
on 2002/10/7 5:21 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>JSPs are the "root of all evil" be
o your brain, it's hard to ever
> > get anything practical done again. To a database person, every nail
> > looks like a thumb. Or something like that.
> > ===
> >
> > tom
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Steve Downey [
7;s hard to ever
> get anything practical done again. To a database person, every nail
> looks like a thumb. Or something like that.
> ===
>
> tom
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Steve Downey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 8
tabase person, every nail
looks like a thumb. Or something like that.
===
tom
-Original Message-
From: Steve Downey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, October 09, 2002 8:52 PM
To: Jakarta General List
Subject: Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
On Wedne
On Wednesday 09 October 2002 07:18 pm, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> On 9/10/02 3:47, "Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > Even when Quick and Dirty takes longer. I tried to convince my boss that
> > a certain "customization" required so many fundamental changes that it
> > would be quicker
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 10/10/2002 03:40:35 AM:
> Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > Java is not the fastest technology to develop in, however, it produces
the
> > best code for the long term.
> >
> > PHP is the fastest technology to develop in, however, it produces the
> >
On 8/10/02 23:59, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Java is not the fastest technology to develop in, however, it produces the
> best code for the long term.
>
> PHP is the fastest technology to develop in, however, it produces the
> crappiest code for the long term.
The problem
On 9/10/02 3:47, "Berin Loritsch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Even when Quick and Dirty takes longer. I tried to convince my boss that
> a certain "customization" required so many fundamental changes that it would
> be quicker and easier to develop/maintain if we did it right. He told me
> tha
On Wed, 2002-10-09 at 14:05, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
> on 2002/10/9 10:40 AM, "Daniel Rall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > mod_python is looking more and more attractive to me all the time, a
> > clever balance between the two.
>
> Not really. This is about as good as plain servlets.
>
> htt
on 2002/10/9 10:40 AM, "Daniel Rall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> mod_python is looking more and more attractive to me all the time, a
> clever balance between the two.
Not really. This is about as good as plain servlets.
http://www.modpython.org/live/mod_python-2.7.8/doc-html/tut-pub.html
Not
On Tue, Oct 08, 2002 at 03:03:37PM -0700, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
>
> Interestingly enough, I did write a quick little framework that works very
> similar to Turbine and has the same concept of users/roles/permissions. =)
Well, if you want an MVC framework, someone did a port
of Maverick to PHP
on 2002/10/8 3:39 PM, "Ceki Gülcü" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It is surprising that a Java expert with monumental contributions to
> this community would not use Java technology to create his website. Is
> this a case of "do as I say, not as I do"?
>
> Of course one is free to try new approach
Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> On 8/10/02 1:30 am, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>
>>on 2002/10/7 5:21 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>JSPs are the "root of all evil" because HTMLers think to have the power (and
>>>obligation, after a while) to blatantly dest
Ever read/see Village of the Dammed? ;-)
-Andy
On Tue, 2002-10-08 at 19:49, Daniel Rall wrote:
> Jon Scott Stevens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > Actually, it looks like CollabNet's SourceCast. Scarab looks like SourceCast
> > and Maven looks like Scarab. =)
>
> And you can all look like ea
I disagree with such Java Jingoism. Jon's reasoning sounded pretty good
to me. . Launching several JVMs sucks. And doing all in one is a recipe
for disaster... (crash bang boom)
This is a sucky thing about java. You get a JVM always whether you want
one or not.. to do it in java he needs a mo
At 12:07 08.10.2002 -0700, Jon Scott Stevens wrote:
>I recently spent a couple weekend nights and built the StudioZ.tv website in
>PHP4 on OSX. It is a pretty cool webapp that has really transformed things
>for us and made my life MUCH easier (the office staff can fully manage the
>events that sh
Bingo!
At 10:55 AM 10/8/2002 -0400, you wrote:
>Its too bad that the clans don't play nice together... I'm convinced
>together... They could come up with something MUCH MUCH better than this
>mess. (provided some GUI wonks could be found) ;-)
>
>(and there is my theme) ;-)
>
>-Andy
>
>
>On Tue,
on 2002/10/8 2:32 PM, "Leo Simons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> I recently spent a couple weekend nights and built the
>> StudioZ.tv website in PHP4 on OSX.
>
> Hey, that looks like maven! :P
Actually, it looks like CollabNet's SourceCast. Scarab looks like SourceCast
and Maven looks like Scar
On Wed, 9 Oct 2002 00:14, Andrew C. Oliver wrote:
> Possibly Avalon does this (to some degree) but it
> only covers a subset of what you need and furthermore it goes out of its
> way to define far to many "is a" relationships just to avoid having
> "default" implementations (public void init() {/*
> I recently spent a couple weekend nights and built the
> StudioZ.tv website in PHP4 on OSX.
Hey, that looks like maven! :P
> It is a pretty cool webapp
> that has really transformed things for us and made my life
> MUCH easier (the office staff can fully manage the events
> that show up on
on 2002/10/8 8:41 AM, "Geir Magnusson Jr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That's why Velocity is as fast as JSP.
>
> geir
...if not faster...
-jon
--
StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment
314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco
http://studioz.tv/
--
To unsubscribe, e-mail:
on 2002/10/8 2:42 AM, "Leo Simons" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "PHP 5 and MySQL 4 will make java, .Net, and all similar technologies
> obsolete."
>
> Said one manager to another manager on a golf court, after having
> spent the weekend with his 12 year old son who built the school
> website.
>
on 2002/10/8 1:14 AM, "Martin Cooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I find it even more amusing to see you try to defend
I never defend. I only offend by exposing the truth. =)
-jon
--
StudioZ.tv /\ Bar/Nightclub/Entertainment
314 11th Street @ Folsom /\ San Francisco
http://studioz.tv
Geir Magnusson Jr wrote:
>>I was trying to stay out, but this *always* comes up in these discussions,
>>and I think it's somewhat disingenuous. First, you have a similar thing in
>>JSTL, and one added and desginers who work with JavaScript on the client
>>side get method calls.
>>
>>It's not dif
On 10/8/02 12:13 PM, "Geir Magnusson Jr" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On 10/7/02 9:56 PM, "Martin Cooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>>> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>>
>>> on 2002/10/7 5:41 PM, "Martin Cooper"
>>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>
Of course, I know
On 10/7/02 9:56 PM, "Martin Cooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
>>
>> on 2002/10/7 5:41 PM, "Martin Cooper"
>> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>>> Of course, I know Velocity fans won't like this any better,
>> but if you bring
>>> the JSP examp
On 10/8/02 10:42 AM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> So putting out crap code that you have to toggle and mess with over and
>> over again is where the money is at in web app development. So what is
>> the solution? There isn't o
Its too bad that the clans don't play nice together... I'm convinced
together... They could come up with something MUCH MUCH better than this
mess. (provided some GUI wonks could be found) ;-)
(and there is my theme) ;-)
-Andy
On Tue, 2002-10-08 at 10:42, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> "Andrew C. Ol
"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> So putting out crap code that you have to toggle and mess with over and
> over again is where the money is at in web app development. So what is
> the solution? There isn't one...web app development is still a big
> hairy mess. Choice is good. ;-
I both agree and disagree with you. The trouble is that XSLT syntax is
horrific and some of the specs (for a specific example the XInclude
spec) are bent on violating SoC more than embedding if statements ever
could (having to declare a base url is a greater evil).
There is a "production concern
(fun tread: tea, tapestry, no one said the other one
http://www.salmonllc.com/website/Jsp/vanity/Jade.jsp )
This presentation/vie layer stuff is a popular topic.
Rumor is that JSR 127 (JS Faces) could allow for emitting of
http://www.w3.org/TR/xforms/ and do all rendering on browser via
JavaS
Pier Fumagalli wrote:
>I believe that Andy doesn't quite know what "templates" are ! :-) Dude,
>we're not talking about the beauty of XML around here, but stuff that
>Macromedia DreamWeaver can parse and (somehow) render! :-)
>
In my shop we've gone our own way, with our own templating sytem
tar
"PHP 5 and MySQL 4 will make java, .Net, and all similar technologies
obsolete."
Said one manager to another manager on a golf court, after having
spent the weekend with his 12 year old son who built the school
website.
It took me a week ton convince the "another manager" that it might
not be a
> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 7:10 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
>
> The above could just as easily be written as:
>
>
On 8/10/02 3:09 am, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> What does "c" stand for? Oh wait...explain that to your designers. Also, I
> believe you forgot a bunch of other junk that you have to put at the top of
> the file or in configuration files to configure what "c" means anyway.
>
On 8/10/02 1:30 am, "Jon Scott Stevens" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> on 2002/10/7 5:21 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
>> JSPs are the "root of all evil" because HTMLers think to have the power (and
>> obligation, after a while) to blatantly destroy your entire container in
>>
I think we can all agree that there are varying issues here. For some
environments, especially those that allow "htmlers" (which we all are) to
dink with backend code, jsp probably is not the best solution. For other
environments, it is a boon.
At 01:21 AM 10/8/2002 +0100, you wrote:
>On 8/1
on 2002/10/7 6:56 PM, "Martin Cooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> You mean this, taken from the page, don't you?
>
>
> Hello
>
>
> #if ($request.getParameter("name") == null)
> Hello World
> #else
> Hello, $request.getParameter("name")
> #end
>
>
>
> At least if you're using JSP/JSTL, y
> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 6:04 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
>
>
> on 2002/10/7 5:41 PM, "Martin Cooper"
>
on 2002/10/7 5:41 PM, "Martin Cooper" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Of course, I know Velocity fans won't like this any better, but if you bring
> the JSP example on that page up to date, using JSTL, you'll have this:
>
>
>
> Hello World
>
>
> Hello,
>
>
I dunno about you, but I would
Scott Eade <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 08/10/2002 10:12:33 AM:
> > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> > #if (..)
> > #end
> >
> > in Velocity...?
> >
> >> "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 08/10/2002 09:50:15
AM:
> >>
> >> <%
> >> if (you.have(this).in.your(html)) {
> >>out.pr
> -Original Message-
> From: Jon Scott Stevens [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, October 07, 2002 5:28 PM
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: Differences between Structs and Turbine ???
>
>
> Actually, yes.
>
> Here is the
on 2002/10/7 5:21 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> JSPs are the "root of all evil" because HTMLers think to have the power (and
> obligation, after a while) to blatantly destroy your entire container in
> less than 2 minutes of uptime... To that respect, even ASP are better...
>
on 2002/10/7 4:45 PM, "Pier Fumagalli" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> It is, actually, but more than Mickey Mouse, it's the "Speedy Gonzales"
> version of JSP, given that per equivalent template (and rewriting tag
> libraries in Tea Applications), we kinda get a 3x performance boost! :-)
>
> Plus
On 8/10/02 1:12, "Scott Eade" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> But the Velocity is much easier to teach to a web designer (non-programmer)
> than the JSP.
> http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd.html
More than easier to teach, is that it _forbids_ them to do what they're not
supposed to do...
Actually, yes.
Here is the specific reason(s):
http://jakarta.apache.org/velocity/ymtd/ymtd-saying-hello.html
Most specifically, if you want to make the word "doesn't" in the example
below bold...now, you have embedded HTML into your println...and we know it
isn't MVC to embed HTML into Java c
On 8/10/02 1:13, "[EMAIL PROTECTED]" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> And to resurface the old issue, this is so much worse than
>
> #if (..)
> #end
>
> in Velocity...?
I believe that Andy doesn't quite know what "templates" are ! :-) Dude,
we're not talking about the beauty of XML around here, bu
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> #if (..)
> #end
>
> in Velocity...?
>
>> "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 08/10/2002 09:50:15 AM:
>>
>> <%
>> if (you.have(this).in.your(html)) {
>>out.println("Andy doesn't think its good");
>> }
>> %>
But the Velocity is much easier to teac
Nope. That sucks too. Not that my opinion should matter.
On Mon, 2002-10-07 at 20:13, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> And to resurface the old issue, this is so much worse than
>
> #if (..)
> #end
>
> in Velocity...?
> --
> dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
> Work: http://www.multitask.com.a
And to resurface the old issue, this is so much worse than
#if (..)
#end
in Velocity...?
--
dIon Gillard, Multitask Consulting
Work: http://www.multitask.com.au
Developers: http://adslgateway.multitask.com.au/developers
"Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote on 08/10/2002 09:50:15 A
Right...my problem with JSP isn't its dogged speed its the conceptual
nastiness of it.
<%
if (you.have(this).in.your(html)) {
out.println("Andy doesn't think its good");
}
%>
-Andy
On Mon, 2002-10-07 at 19:45, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> On 8/10/02 0:18, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL P
On 8/10/02 0:18, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Looks like kind of a mickey mouse version of JSP to me... ;-) (I just
> couldn't resist...I just couldn't!)
It is, actually, but more than Mickey Mouse, it's the "Speedy Gonzales"
version of JSP, given that per equivalent template
Looks like kind of a mickey mouse version of JSP to me... ;-) (I just
couldn't resist...I just couldn't!)
On Mon, 2002-10-07 at 18:08, Pier Fumagalli wrote:
> On 7/10/02 22:01, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > While I think there are places that struts could learn a lot from
On 7/10/02 22:01, "Andrew C. Oliver" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> While I think there are places that struts could learn a lot from
> turbine... Struts has a bit more "design cohesion" shall we say? Where
> turbine is a bit moreorganic in places.
>
> The nice thing about Turbine is that it
While I think there are places that struts could learn a lot from
turbine... Struts has a bit more "design cohesion" shall we say? Where
turbine is a bit moreorganic in places.
The nice thing about Turbine is that it does favor containment over
inheritance, same thing with Struts (not nec
On Sat, 2002-10-05 at 19:36, John McNally wrote:
> This is not really the correct place, but a short answer is struts is
> jsp-centric while turbine attempts to be neutral on the actual
> templating mechanism. Given that most jsp developers gravitate to
> struts means you get the best support if
This is not really the correct place, but a short answer is struts is
jsp-centric while turbine attempts to be neutral on the actual
templating mechanism. Given that most jsp developers gravitate to
struts means you get the best support if using velocity within turbine.
Struts most certainly has
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